Just home for my 2 weeks R&R and thought I would let those interested know how this unit is handling the extreme cold. The machine is being used to build and maintain Iceroads on Chevron’s White Hills Project. This project is located approximately 200 miles north of the Arctic Circle in the interior of Alaska. Overall performance of the machine has been very good. We still have some steering control warnings to deal with, anytime the temperatures or wind chills start getting down around -40 degrees you can set the “Lose of Steering Control” alarm off by simply attempting to steer quickly. Due to extremely cold oil it is easy to out run the positioning sensors in the steering cylinders with the Joystick. Due to 2 -12 hour shifts and the 2 week on 2 week off schedule three other operators and I operate the machine. We all have varying opinions on the machine. I personally enjoy it very much for the type of work we are doing right now. It is very user friendly and extremely comfortable. I still believe they should have extended the mainframe another foot (between the cab and lift cylinder mounts) and gotten the moldboard out from under the cab. We have an 18 foot moldboard and with that the G’s were too short, the H’s were too short and now the M’s are still too short. I would also like to see 5 more degrees of articulation. I would gladly give up a little turning radius for some steeper moldboard angles and still see the heal of the moldboard. Here are a few shots of a blow closing in on me. At times it gets so bad you can barely see the ripper bar in the rear view mirror. This is when you start praying that you don’t run out of fuel. 50 to 70 below wind chills, you wouldn’t last long.
40 below! And to think I was complaining about 15 below! Nice to see your still around, Randy. I knew if the new M had any faults at all, you would point em out! Take care and stay warm. Jason
M Series Hi Randy, Glad to hear from you on the Cat 16M . Your right about the moldboard being under the cab. (14M) Took me awhile to realize the sight angle had changed. It became steeper. I thought I had the seat too far forward . I was going to measure it, and see what the difference was on the 14H and the 14M . The heel is obstructed by the cab door frame. I had to move the center shift out and use a lessor moldboard angle. How's the fuel doing ? I heard from a friend that 98 vehicles were down, the other day, for fuel gelling on the Slope. They said it was only -27F at that. They were blaming the new ULSD fuel that became effective Jan 1st. Later, Northart
Very nice pics. It goes to show you that no matter how much engineering is done on a machine every operator is different and when you make one thing really good it usually hinders(even if slighty) somthing else that was near perfect on the series before. The dirt crew foreman at the highway shop has his choice of which grader he runs during the winter for plowing, and he always takes the oldest one in the shop. Says he is used to it and enjoys pushing snow with the old work horse. Trbo
Thanks for the pictures and machine details. How do you people know the road area in a white out? got GPS?
Ice Road Truckers?
Company I worked for some years ago had the first 16G's on the slope and they had the same problem with the steering. The problem being of course, the the hoses and steering cylinders are so far out that the oil never gets warm enough to do much more than crawl slowly thorough the lines, "kinda like toothpaste," is the way one of the old Alaska hands put it to me. They did not have the advantage then of the newer arctic oils and fluids and really had a tough time getting some machines to operate well in the extreme cold. I had the same problem in Northern Ontario one winter with slashers and 14G's. A guy I worked with in Colorado, got trapped for three days in a 992C in a whiteout at the Red Dog Mine in Alaska one winter. No one could get to him and he couldn't get out, was afraid to even leave the cab. Fortunately he had a large water jug with him and he had packed some extra food in his lunch bucket. He said it wasn't the first time he had been caught in the pit in a blizzard, and he mentioned that they came in fast. He was lucky that 92 kept purring away.
White Outs ? Hello Surferjoe, With all due respect, for your status , I think the previous story of the Red Dog Mine Loader Pit escapade, is far, far, baloney ! 3 days , pure BS ! I worked in the Arctic (PET-4) in the '70's and '80's , long before modern GPS .Before Red Dog was ever conceived ! Yes, we encountered many white outs, . No one was ever, ever, stranded by negligence or design !
Cool pics ( literally) how about some more pics of what you're doing up there when you go back? Us fair weather guys don't like 40 above can't imagine -60
Hey Northart. It was his story and I passed it along for what it was worth. Having been involved in some bad blizzards myself at times and also having worked closely with many people with experience all over Alaska with similar blizzard and whiteout experiences, I had no real reason to doubt him as he wasn't prone to exaggeration. Many people I knew from my employment with the old Green Construction Company related similar incidents from their days working in Alaska on the pipeline and north slope. What they had to do in order to work in cold conditions and bad weather are riveting stories in themselves, particularly in light of the fact that they were using some equipment never intended to work in such climatic conditions. The Green people worked particularly close with Caterpillar and other manufacturers to develop new and better lubricants and methods to combat the cold and extreme conditions, the 16 motor graders are a case in point. Green had two or three of the first production G models ever built and one of them was in Alaska. I had one in Wyoming just after it was completely overhauled and updated by Cat. The factory monitored these machines closely. As for blizzards and whiteouts, the closest I ever get to them now a days is watching them on the telly. We get bad dust storms here, in fact my last RV haul in October was right in the middle of a bad one, but they don't compare to a long whiteout. Stay warm and dry up there buddy, if you ever decide to get out and come to sunny Arizona, look me up.
I don't care what the conditions are...for a chance to operate something like that..I for one would take the chance..brrr..Thanks for the great pictures!
Cool Wow lots of questions to answer and comments to make. In regards to the pictures I’ll add a couple more at the end of this to help explain what I writing about. I’m planning to purchase a new camera on this trip home since the one I’m using now has only 2.0 mega pixels. Easy to carry, but not really spectacular pictures. Art we have not experienced any fuel problems yet. They did shut down a couple of Case Tractors/Snow blowers because they weren’t being used for a couple days, which was a foolish mistake. Suddenly the blow comes, the next day we needed them to cleanup and they couldn’t get them going. Took all day with Thermon’s and parchutes to get them going. I have included a picture of the 16M working with one of the Case Blowers. Also pictures of building the drilling pad 600’x 600’, the area where the drill sits is 300’x 300’ and the ice had to be a minimum of 3’ foot thick to support the rig. The rest of the pad is camps, tank farm and drilling mud containment area. The rig was just arriving when I went on my R&R, but I have included a picture from the same drill rig, which my son took last year. Other pictures are of the Tundra Bears (730 Cat Articulated Trucks converted to LGP Lowboy), these rigs bring in the supplies and groceries. Other picture is the fuel train passing me on the Iceroad (Case/Stieger Tractors towing fuel tanks and a drag) They actually run right beside the Iceroad in the snow for better traction. Another picture helps answer the question of how we get back to camp, shows the Carsonite Markers. Just like on the highway they use white on the right and amber on the left. On tangent sections they are placed 200 ft apart on the same side of the road and are staggered so the one on the left is only 100’ from the one on the right, in the corners or curve they tighten up the spacing depending on how tight the radius is. If the blow gets really bad and you’re in a team you stop at each marker, the lead vehicle then proceeds to the next marker while the others wait, once he finds it then he radios to the others to come forward. Then when it gets so bad that’s not working a Tucker quadtrack with GPS/and a DTM file of the Iceroad comes out and picks you up. You turn your machine inline with the wind set the idle up and leave it. Several operators carry their own handheld Garmins. They have also purchased several new locator beacons and are making plans to install them. The 16M has Caterpillar Product Link and the dealer has been monitoring the machine from Anchorage. There are also milepost signs every mile so you can tell the Tucker Drivers your location if they have to rescue you. There is also a “Journey Manager” on call 24 hours a days at mile 0/Franklin Bluffs. Every 5 miles there is a big red “Radio Check” sign to remind us to call in our location. Journey Manager has 4 radios in his office; 1 is for the crews maintaining the Iceroad, 2 is for the crew building the iceroad and drill/camp pads, 3 is Franklin Bluffs Base Channel and 4 is for trucks traveling the Iceroad moving supplies and drill components. Safety on this project is second to none; they really are going all out to keep us as safe as possible. It’s very reassuring since my oldest son runs the GPS Rover on this project and does all our grade checking. In regards to the “Iceroad Truckers” TV show, they approached the company last year about doing a segment on our project. I don’t know if it will ever happen. In regards to women on equipment, I know some darn good female operators. One of the 740 Ejector Trucks on this project is run by a very capable lady. I also date a lady who is a great operator, very qualified. The days of this being a man’s world are long gone in my opinion. Thank Goodness!!!!!LOL….
Great pics Randy! You guys who work on the Slope and up north sure keep impressing me with what happens up there. :drinkup I like the 740 with the lowboy.
Randy - I am genuinely interested to know why this machine is affected by wind chill, and not just ambient. Thank you for any info.
Do you have you have any more info on the tundra bears, can't find much on the net. I've always had a thing for arctic operations, especaily on the slope and at the other pole. Any more info or links would be cool.:drinkup
Awesome thread. Thanks for posting Randy. I've been on some pretty wild adventures but nothing in the Arctic. Keep sending info and pics.
DPete....... I meant to post these pictures the other day to answer your question about what all we’re doing, but had to take off. We haul snow off of designated lakes and water from designated lakes. This is all controlled and regulated by Alaska Department of Natural Resources (DNR). Lakes, which are up on the higher plateaus and don’t collect as much run off are highly regulated and we can only take a designated amount. Lakes in lower areas and closer to the rivers we are allowed to take lot more from. All of the drivers are required to fill out a DNR load sheet each day so the Project Managers can report to DNR how much water is being taken from each lake. During Ice road and Pad construction we are basically mixing water and snow with the motor graders to make Ice. Different temperatures require different mixing ratios. I finished the grade on the first drilling and camp pads with our 14H equipped with Trimble GCS600 and controlled it off a Trimble RL700 Dual Plane Laser. This is the first pad that has been finished using automatics on North Slope. Chevron’s Company Man said it’s the best drilling pad he has ever seen. Many people told me this couldn’t be done, but we just set a new standard for this. We had some issues with cold weather and the Automatics, but were able to work through them. I have other plans to help the system for finishing the next pad when I return.
One more Pic Some time today or tonight I will start other thread under another catagory to answer the T Bear question and post some other photos and answer the wind chill question. Right now I gotta go plow some snow.............................
Awesome Pics, keep them coming
Special Tool Wind chill or just the wind period works exactly like the fan behind a radiator. Though wind chill can never cool any live component (hydraulics, trans engine) down lower than the ambient temperature it will cool it down faster. Hence the problem with the long steering hoses on the motor graders. Any heat generated from the pump, which is absorbed by the oil is quickly carried away once the oil enters the lines, the cold air blowing across the line cools them down almost instantly. A vehicle shut off at -30 and 20 knot winds cools down much quicker than one shut down at -30 with no wind. The wind finds its way through the smallest crack, it’s actually amazing. I’ve seen cabs nearly filled full of snow because operators parked the machine facing the wind with a leaky door seal. You only make the mistake once. One other note on the steering hoses and cylinders on the G, H and M series graders. The volume of hydraulic oil held in the lines is greater than the volume held in the barrel end of the cylinder when fully extended. So warm oil can never actually get from the tank to the cylinder. This is why they install jumper lines on the cylinders at the factory to force all the air out of the lines and back to the tank where it can then be vent to atmosphere. It takes 22 full revolutions of the Hand Metering Unit (HMU) to displace the oil all the way down the line to the front of the machine through the jumper lines and back down the opposite line through the valve and into the tank. Once this is done the jumper lines are removed and plugs installed. Regards, Randy
Hydraulic Oils Hello Randy, The (Military) aircraft hydraulic oils have a colder operating temperature I'm told. So why not switch to a different viscosity ? Chevron AW 10 has a pour point of -38F , viscosity index of 48. That is their lowest, but we used Polar ??? whatever, forgot it, a synthetic product , was better even. Why not heat tape and insulate the hydraulic lines ? Wish I could remember that synthetic product ??? Too long ago .
Re: Hdr Oil Art Right now the 16M has Chevron 0W30SYNDELO/HYD FLUID/SYN DELON, which has a pour point of -76 F. This is what Cat recommended and would keep the machine warranted. Dave Cruz let me purchase an extended 48 month or 8000 hour warranty on the machine just before it shipped north. We have discussed insulating the top cover and open lines near the cylinders and installing heaters on the cylinders and some other ideas. It actually steers fine it just sets off the alarm if you steer quickly after a period of inactivity (long straightaway). Even when the alarm is going off and flashing "lose of steering control" it still steers fine. I have a meeting with our dealer TC next week, I'll let you know what I find.....
Arctic Hydraulic Oil Hello Randy, Had to do some digging to find the info, I was looking for. It was Conoco DN-600 Polar Start Synthetic Oil we used. Expensive stuff at the time $600 a barrel ??? , if I remember ! Late 1970's ??? . Can't find any current info on it. I found the Aviation Hydraulic Oil specs also while I was looking.
Nice Pic's of a NICE machine. The few here do well, Alot better than the 24M's. As for the Oil in the steering cylinder's not getting warm? Forcing oil through the port's of the cylinder's will warm them up a little, As far now, No Problems's at silly -temps. Mountain top mining is different to Long straight Grade's though so ... Good luck to you guy's!
A real eye opener! :notworthy Very, very intresting info and insight into a difficult and at times very dangerous job you do. I am suprised to hear you say that the tankers sometimes run off iceroad in the snow alongside for better traction. Not suprised about the traction but I understood that was a no, no, as the snow protects the ice and can be weaker out there. BUT, I am only an armchair "Ice Road Trucker" Thank you again for the very valuable insight. :drinkup
Thanks for another great update Randy!!! Your descriptions and pictures put me right there. Also am very interested in the technical reporting Thanks again for keeping us posted!!!
Richard Thanks for the comments. As I said I'm looking at better cameras will I'm home and will hopefully have more to show on my next R&R. AtlasRob: Sorry I responded to your question in the wrong catagory, but here it is again; In regards to the Stiegers running beside the Ice road: The majority of these iceroads are over tundra. When they cross the rivers and lakes they do have to get on the iceroad and many times spinout. That's why they have winches on all these Stiegers. They un pin run out their line and winch the sleds ahead, once they get back on shore they pin back up. That was a good question! Regards, Randy
Suberb pix Randy, real interesting to hear how you cope in that sort of harsh environment. Worlds away from what I've ever done, (kinda jealous as would like to have a go....lol) Anyway, I was thinking, say it did get down to -30 with wind chill down to -60 or whatever. Worst case scenario and the CAT or machine you were operating had mechanical failure...... How much time would you have, how long could you survive till you were picked up? BTB
Respecting the Cold and the Forces of Nature Big Tackle Boy: A great question, but one which I honestly can't answer. I have thought about it many times. I have a fear of the extreme cold and that's a good thing. People who don't fear or respect it tend to get in trouble. It's like avalanches and snowmachining. I've seen guys get caught in them because they weren't afraid and they didn't understand. When you have seen a D8 get shoved a couple hundred feet by an avalanche it makes you realize this stuff can take your life in an instant if you don't respect it. As I've gotten older and learned to value life more I don't take the chances I use to. This is digging through the avalanche know as "Superman's Climax". We had to do this so we could get an Excavator up above this rockfailure, which was about to fall on the railroad and the hwy. Very exciting
Is that cable his lifeline???? Kind of a mental security thing more than a reliable lifeline isn't it???
No prob Randy I found it, and Thanks again very intresting :thumbsup Mental :yup about the best description I can think of
Hi Randy Krieg. We just received our new 16M at the Ft. Knox Gold Mine near Fairbanks. So far we're loving it. It sure has a heap load of bells and whistles.
Cold Cat's Randy Why not some sort of small built in leak ( warm up circuit ) for the steering? Do you think that would work? Scott
Flushing Valve................. Scott We used a flushing valve to solve the problem on the all wheel drives back in 96-97. Stopped the dualcone seals from leaking and helped prevent that surge and wheel hop when it first came on. I run a lot of the validation testing on those updates, but knowing how that system works (AWD) and how the steering works; I'm not sure how they could do it. They will solve the problem, but unfortunately it will take time. When are you going to ship me a new Deere to try out? I have a great cold weather spot right now to check it out. We had to shut down yesterday due to -80 to -90 windchills. Not fun. Tracksoup71 Hope to here more about how it's doing there; good or bad. Ours is working on the White Hills project just north of the Brooks Range. We have Product Link (satellite system) on it so even through I'm not on that project anymore I still check on it every day. It's still running and I have not seen a steering alarm in a few days... . British Petroleum has two 16M's running not to far from where I'm at. I've heard mixed reviews, just like on here. Some love the things and some don't. I'm still learning on ours. Planning right now to take it to Greyling for an airport job. Should get lots of hours on it out there and hopefully get a little better on it.... Keep in Touch....Randy
Randy's Pictures You will get a kick out of this Randy, my wife just scolded me because I was showing her some of you pictures, and without thinking made the mistake that so many people make when they see a good picture that someone has taken. They must have a really good camera. My wife quickly corrects me a says its not the camera its the person taking the pictures. I think you know there are alot of us that enjoy your pictures, and as I said in another post the backdrop your working with doesn't hurt either. My wife is a amature photographer, in fact thats where alot of her spare time and alot of our money goes. Keep sending those pictures. Scott
Self steering Cat Motorgrader I was on You tube a few minutes ago and ran across this video, has anyone seen this and does anyone have any insight as to what its all about? spend quite a bit of time on the grader forum and have not seen a refrence to this. If it is a repeat I apologize Scott http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z04t5D1f3yY
Randy Krieg, do you keep a survival bag, on each machine incase of problems? At the oppsite end of the world each machine that goes out on the ice shelf carries a survival bag, in each bag their is enough stuff for 2 people, (I would not want to have 2 people relying on the contents though). Their is a moutian tent, a shovel, a stove and extra fuel, a pot, matches, some food (nasty dehydrated crap), and 2 sleeping bags. The intent of this stuff is so IF your machine breaks down, or somethig happens durring a condition 1 storm, you can survive, till rescue, or conditions change.... Some one stated earlier the unlikleyhood of being stuck in a pice of equipment for 3 days, well I can atest to that happing at the bottom of the world... just this year their was a group at a field camp that was stuck in their tents for a week, could not see the other tents or get to the main tent...
G modell: I've seen that one live. The grader is located in sweden on one of the real bad winter roads. The conctractor has installed GPS and a bunch of stuff to be able to stay on the road. Road gets totaly blown full and u see nothing in the wind. GPS keeps him on the road. The graders is also a test system for this type of equipment. Road authoroties do some research on theese systems. Its bether to be able to hold the road "snowclearing open" in bad weather instead of closing it totaly.(only plowequip out not.) It takes often a couple of days to reopen a road like the one in the video. You then have to go on with a wheel loader and a snowblower.
Self steering Cat Motorgrader MKTEF, thanks for the info, Kinda thought that was what it was for but if you notice it say's something about John Deere in the title of the video and it appears to have a John Deere steering wheel on it, Do you know if J.D. makes the self steering unit ? I work for a JD dealer and have never heard of it but I guess it could have something to do with the Agricultural side if that is the case. Thanks Scott