Do you guys prefer working with a grapple or a bucket with a thumb for doing demo? Which is your preference and why? What do you see as the advantage or disadvantage of each? Any favorite tricks when wrecking with a grapple or thumb? Please do share. Thanks, guys.
No experiance. But having said that I do think a grapple would give greater control at grabbing and ripping things apart. Also being able to lift and move more akward(sp) shapes by getting better grip.
Never used a grapple but have done quite a bit of demo with a thumb. A thumb works just fine for demo.
I've never used a grapple either; only a fixed thumb. And it worked fine. (Especially after having done a few with just the bucket, and no thumb.) For those of us unfamiliar with grapples, do both sides of the grapple move, as with a bucket and hydraulic thumb setup, or is it a case of the "thumb" side of the grapple being fixed, and only the "bucket" side moves, or do they come in both varieties? Inquiring minds want to know...
I have used both a grapple and a bucket thumb combo. For demo purpose a grapple is much better much more hd and can grab more at a time. With the thumb and bucket combo wen working with heavy items or items you have to pry out or uneven it put a lot of stress on the thumb. I have rip 2 tumbs right of the stick loading shot rock.
Never used a grapple but ive used a thumb and it works just fine, but i could see a grapple having its advantages. We are putting in a 50 lot development right now that is a big rock, had blasters in there for 5 months shooting and drilling. havent had a thumb rip off yet, and i dont see how one would. moving rock for ~30 foot cuts and fills, all the storm sewer and water, set a 20 foot sewer manhole today. Just goes through a lot of teeth and grease.:beatsme
Grapples Popular on the East Coast Do you think it's a geographic thing---using a thumb or a grapple for demo? It sounds like grapple is big on the East Coast. I remember they used to use clamshell buckets on big old cranes for demo on the East Coast in the old days too. Maybe I'm imagining things and geography doesn't make a bit of difference. Great replies though. I'd love to see the answer to digger's grapple question posted by somebody too. Thanks, guys.
Digger I will try to answer this the best I can. If you have a 3 - 2 prong grapple it is something like this. The back part of the grapple with the 3 teeth stays stationery and is held in place with a stiff arm mounting, it can be moved to 3 different positions by pulling the pin and re setting it. The front of the grapple which has 2 teeth is the part that dose all the moving. It is mounted to the front cylinder like a bucket is. Here is a picture of the on we use at work. I will try and get some better pictures of it for you guys. I am not at work today so give me another day and I will post some better pictures for you.] I hope you can see the basics in this picture of how it moves and mounts. Mike
i perfer the thumb because both ends are working pieces as with the grapple one side is fixxed so when i m loading demo stuff at ground level into those trailors that are 30 ft tall i can control the angle of material to be loaded i was running a 330 at the time that same machine can take whole 30in dia trees and rip it clean off the ground i can load 3ft rip rap into bucket without dirt that hdro thumb makes my job easer
Here ya go Wolf a few more pictures. Digger hope these answers your question.
Great Pictures Thanks for the great pictures, Truckie. A picture is worth a thousand words, and these pictures explain beautifully what you wrote. That is an awesome looking grapple, I might add. It just wreaks of power. Cool stuff. :usa
I'm also in the northeast, and in my area it seems most demo companies prefer grapples and excavating companies prefer thumbs. All my experience is with a thumb.
Thumbs are nice if you have to move a big rock or when your going use it for a few minutes. I have all grapples I feel there stronger and better for demo.
Dude: What kind of demolition are you doing? What kind of buildings do you get to knock down, and what kind of equipment (hoes/grapples etc.) are you using to do that demo? Thanks, man.
I don't do it to often, mostly old warehouses a few houses. I have a Cat 320 a Cat 345 and a Komatsu PC600 with grapples. A cat 235D with a shear. I have an old Hitachi EX300 thats pretty banged up I use it mostly to load the crusher, because the pumps are tired on it. One job I had i rented a Cat 385 from the local cat dealer to take down a building. Most of my work is utilities and site work.
Nice, bro. Hit 'em hard!
For what its worth I've used both. In my opionion the grabble sucks on machines that are larger than 65 to 70 thousand lbs. The grapples stationary side is to thick and hard to pick up smaller objects. Mostly, I don't like it because your visibility is limited when picking things up, you can't see behind the stationary side of the grapple. My setup is a rake with a thumb, it serves a similar purpose like the grapple. The ability to grab a lot of stuff at one time is limited with a standard bucket. Hope this helps.
I have used both grapples and thumbs, and in my opinion, if you have a grapple, you are wrecking, handling large/bulk material, or loading trucks. they work best on larger machines. and with an experienced enough operator, you can in fact do some fine picking. at the last company I worked for, buckets/thumbs were unheard of. we had some darn good operators who could pick fine wire with a grapple. the standard 3-2 tooth box grapple can't be beat for heavy demolition work, there are limited parts to break (I.E. Keepers, teeth, cylinders, hoses) up until about 2 months ago, i had never used a hydraulic thumb, it does have it's place, however I don't care for the fact that it's hard to hold your scraper beam tight, because you have 2 cylinders one always wants to push the other one, (generally the bucket cyl pushes the thumb cyl.) although I love loading trucks using a hydraulic thumb over a grapple, because you can fold it up at any time and get it right out of the way. I also like the thumb/bucket combo for doing brick demo, because it's much easier to scoop brick than it is to pinch it. I have also learned the value of a bucket's ability to do fine picking...though I still run my thumb like a stiff arm grapple most of the time: keep the thumb fixed, put it behind what you're picking and bring the bucket to meet the thumb. finally I feel that a grapple has more of a use when picking from a concrete slab, but with a bucket you need to be able to actually get under the material a little in order to get a good grip. so. both have their place, and a good operator can make efficient use of either one he is given. it really all depends on the particular situation. unfortunately, most contractors pick one and stick with it, I haven't seen too many that use both thumbs and grapples Eric
when im doing a lot of fine picking, or something using the thumb a lot i generally keep the thumb out and bring the bucket to the thumb. For one, you have more control, with a thumb switch its either open or close at full speed, and two is its just faster. I can pick up a glass bottle with the thumb, while on the other hand ive seen guys that couldnt pick up a concrete catch basin riser with the thumb. they dont think to gently curl the bucket instead of slaming the thumb closed
I used a Kubota mini-ex that had a sliding switch on the joystick that allowed complete variable control of the thumb. I would assume similar options are available for larger machines. I was able to pick up a piece of sidewalk and with it pinched between the bucket and thumb, rotate the whole thing until it was standing up straight to be buried, all without exerting excess force against the bucket or thumb cylinders.
A thumb has its place, but I prefer the grapple for demo. The thumb is nice on a small machine or if your going to use it occasionally to move something. Like said earlier, if your a good operator you can pick a fine piece of copper out of a pile.
I like the hydraulic thumbs over the fixed. You dont have to do as much tracking/ moving the machine if its hydraulic. Just make sure that thumb cylinder is weaker than the one on the bucket is, or you will be buying a new thumb cylinder. On our daewoo the dealer had to replace the thumb cylinder twice because it kept bending because they did not set the presure release right.
For demo purposes def go with the grapple. the thumbs are nice but are so easy to abuse since your point of contact is so much farther out like at the end of the thumb were the bucket teeth meet. a grapple on the other hand picks up most things in the palm area instead of out on the finger tips reducing the leverage forces that will twist a thumb right off or worse if u over welded the permanat adjuster on the back of your stick u could possibly rip or fracture your dipper stick . plus since the grapples are boxed in construction they are much tuffer. the disadvantage is u dont have a bucket anymore for digging purposes. Ive used hydraulic thumbs but im not a real fan because of the fact that u constantly have to roll the thumb back out since the bucket cylinder over powers the thumb cylinder. one could prob put a heavy duty cylinder on a hydraulic thumb and skip the pressure release but the weight of the cylinder would be so significant it would greatly reduce yer lifting capabilities
after i was done training i was doing some concrete recycling using a thumb and it seemed ackward. but for demo it's awesome.
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums juniordemoguy! :drinkup
thanks bud! :drinkup
Anybody seen a thumb like this. It appears to have a bolt-on row of teeth, which I've never seen. Its made by Cat in case the Cat placard is not visible and is attached to a Cat 320 ZTR. Obviously needing some teeth too. It's a local contractors hoe that was in town.
I honestly have never seen replaceable teeth on a thumb. Nor have I really seen the need for such a thing. That is an intersting set up. I wonder if it has a specific application that it meets. :beatsme
Thumb hands down!
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums tonka! :drinkup
Thanks bud!
Well im going to drag up an old thread. Boss man Danhoe is looking at adding a thumb or grapple to his Stink Belt. Its equipped with a Hendrix coupler. The machine does a lot of sewer work. My thoughts are that a Fixed thumbs mounts will get in the way when you have to spin the bucket around. Where as a grapples fixed mount on the stick will be up higher and farther away from the bucket. The stick already has a dent in it from where the previous owner hit it with the hook on the bucket. Give you an idea of what gets done with the machine, and the options.
I would go with a grapple, with a quick coupler you can have it on in a jiff, and if you plan on doing heavy demo it'll last longer than a thumb. I have 1 Cat 315 with a thumb the rest have grapples.
Thumb or Grapple Turbo: Did they end up putting on a thumb or a grapple? How has it been working out for you? What kind of buildings have you been wrecking with it?
grapples most def. Our best operators can pick up an cigarette or egg without crushing... With oilquick you can easily change from concrete crusher, to grapple to bucket. This leads to always using the most suitable attachment, resulting in better sorting rates, lower waste costs, better HSE etc. Thumbs are mostly used for building stone walls over here.
I notice the grapples look wider and also rotate over there. That is pretty useful equipment. Why don't they use rotating grapples like that in USA? Go figure.
Wolf, I dont think anything has been done with the Link Belt yet. I am currently working for a different company. On to your rotating grapple. The idea is a good one, I just dont know how it would hold up to the US style wrecking. Around here it seems most operations use a grapple for a front line wrecking, just as much as they use it for sorting. It seems to me that the rotators would not handle the abuse cause by grabbing and pulling on heavy steel structures. At MCM our labounty msd3000 shear with rotator was the main wrecking attachment. Not only was it used to cut the structure, but it was also used for pushing and pulling not only scraper beams, but large sections of concrete floor. The rotator took a lot of abuse, and had to be rebuilt during the job. I think the same would be true with a rotating grapple in the same applications. I also find that in 99% of applications, all it takes is to set a grapple tine next to the object i want to pick up, and slide it one way or the other to grab it.
Just proven my point of using the the right equipment for the operation?? Why not use the shear for cutting the steel structures and grapple for sorting, demo of light structures, showel bucket (right word??) for scraping the slab?
When i talk about scraping the slab, we are talking about using I beams as dozer blades. When wrecking heavy industrial multi story structures, everything revolves around the 3/4 machines that are on the front line of the project. A lot of these structures have concrete floors poured over steel sheets, and sitting on I beams. When you have a big pile of sorted metal that needs moved, you team up a few machines to shove it out of your way. When you are wrecking a tall structure where you trip a section of building, sometimes you need to pull and drag material to make up for a lack of reach
Wow what great info here. I would think a grapple would be great for picking apart Steal or wood structure but when you are working on a stone/brick structure I would think a thumb would be best. I don't see to many brick walls staying together and being able to pick them up. concrete yes, brick or stone no way.
Some great pictures Turbo and a great debate with our friends in Norway. Very interesting insight that you both have. The info about the I-beams is fascinting. The front line is where it is at. By the way, who are you working for now, and what kinds of jobs have you been doing lately.
grapples (typical demarec like the pics over) - is very suited for brick demo: You can easily demolish any interior structures (wood, residuel, steel beams etc), the brick facade could then be demolished whatever you like - bucket, crusher, grapple etc. The picture above is from a project we had, where the facade was preserved. Turbo: i think why we disagree a little bit is due to different grapple types and that you use more directly mounted equipment. We also use beams, coloums (wood, concrete or steel) the same way, if we dont have oilquick on the machine. A pro using your type of grapples i see, is less tear loading or moving the scrap. Shear used for frontline demo: got a lot more pics on the job computer which shows my point better...
turbo: Is it a volvo700 on those pics?
Thodob: Why did you have to preserve the facade on that demo job? What was the purpose of that?
that question do you have to ask to the preservation goverment over here. they even wanted to preserve this building in the middle (the left one is preserved): another keeping the facade project:
how often do you guys have to preserve the facade? that seems so silly. the rest of the building is gone, and it makes the demolition so much harder to keep the front of it standing. what a waste. who makes those decisions about what goes down and what stays standing? are the laws pretty strict? how old are the facades that you keep standking? are there any other parts of the building, like interiors and decorations, that you are required to preserve as well? Very interesting how you do it over there.
Yes it is a Volvo 700, I believe it was the first in the country. It was a good machine for the company, but it didnt fit in to their plans. It was too small to run the same attachments that were run by the Cat 375s. So it's only use was as a grapple machine, so it was not versatile enough. I understand where your rotating grapples would be a good attachment, I just dont think they would fit into most companies here. Wolf, Im working for a local company. They do civil and environmental work. Most of our work is gas station remediation, and other environmental jobs. I was hired to run a civil crew, but recently our environmental jobs have picked up, so im currently doing excavations at gas stations.
There is a lot of good work in gas station remediation. I'm glad to see you were able to plug into that in these tough times. Around here, you see the fencing go up around almost every gas station in the city, down they come, the tanks come out, and they usually end up building condos there. Good luck to you in your new outfit. Where are you located, NW or MI now?
I'll try to answer as best i can: We do not very often keep the facade, maybe one job per year in total. They keep the facade on structures from a certain time period, eg the jugend style, to preserve the impression of an area. It is not many old brick buildings around here, so they try to preserve as many as possible. They are from 1880-1930 approximately. It is not a big problem to keep it, just need some addional support until the building work is finished. To be allowed to demolish, the curator (either on a city, county or national level, or all..) must agree to the work. They are not always very capricious, so they often end of with preserving strange, tumbledown wrecks/objects. They are not elected and have endless power, like a dictator... And they dont support the owners with any money either. ointhead if your living in an old building with the strictes regulations, you need to apply for any changes. Eg. heard of one living in old building from around 1750, who wasnt aloud to change the old wood banister to a modern duplicate, since this would be hard to see its new. End up getting the order to change it to plastic! sick. Another crazy example is a waterfall pipeline (full of lead, PAH and PCB) which the energy Directorate order the company to remove, is temporary preserved, in anticpation of any decision to what to with the nearby old tramroad... (we would really like that demo work, 62 degrees slope ) This reply do maybe sound like it coming from a demolition worker
example of taking out pieces of a facade and how we demo a brick building. really complicated project, since the demo site was very narrow. Neighbour entrance was approximately 2m from the house and was open during the whole project.
some more pics from the same project. We had discussion with the builder's advisor whether we were able to pick out the window whole with a machine - damn good operator - window didnt break
some other examples of use grapple in demo of single house buildings and use of bucket to scrape the pad.
Hard to beat a roto grab:
Those are hard to beat for an attachment. how small do they make them? I just don't think the "finger" grapple is worth the money.
Smallest I've seen was between about 150-200kgs.
At least down to 5tons machines, very useful for indoor/partial demo
Thanks guys. What is the official name or brand of those units? Website?
Demarec has grabs down to 1,5t machines.
Thank you very much. I wanted to have a link so when/if the times ever comes and I want to invest in one I know where to get one. Kudos:notworthy
YouTube - OilQuick in demolition YouTube - Pionierpanzer 3 Kodiak
I'm sort of sure demarec are built/distributed by someone else in the US, think I've seen the link on this forum before. Anyone else remember the name of the company?
Demarec is a dutch company bought by Kinshofer. It's products are branded Kinshofer in North America and some other markets. NA HQ in near Toronto. The rotating grabs and multiprocessors are great. Website: http://www.kinshofer.com/site_eng/
Do you know any major demo guys in the US who are using the rotating grabs? They seem to love them in Europe, just wondering to what extent they have caught on stateside.
I've seen them used by East Coast demolition contractors, I know less about the rest of the counry. They're not nearly as prevalent as in Europe as you say. We have seen more takeup in MRFs or recycling centers as those are developed here.
Who do you see on the East Coast using rotator grabs? What kind of buildings are they used on? Brick, or otherwise? What's the consensus about them?
What I've seen was brick/masonry and applications where they wanted to lift off roof sections or timber before bringing down structures. In a word, "selective" work.
So you are saying that it gives more control over how the building comes down?
we use the term selective demolition (compared to the old wrecking method).