I've been looking for a cat 312B or C excavator and I'm finding a lot of grey market machines for sale. I have a relative that used to be a cat mechanic and he suggested I stay away from them. His reasoning was parts can be difficult to track down on some machines making repairs very difficult. Do any of you have grey market machines and have you found chasing parts difficult? I've found some nice low hour machines that are 15-20K less than comparable north american versions which is very appealing financially. My preference would be to purchase a north american version, but we're talking about a significant chunk of change for a solo operator like myself. Thanks
I had a John Deere 310 that was imported from Belgium. Every time I needed a part for it, the counter man couldn't find the serial number listed in his parts source. Often times the parts ordered for the machine wouldn't fit, the North American version was that much different. Once we established what the problem was, ordering parts became a bit more reliable, but usually resulted in a 2 week waiting period. There also was a hefty shipping fee involved each time. I wasn't relying on my machine for income, it was mostly for grounds maintainence here at home. I doubt I could afford the lay up time for each repair if I were depending on it for my livelihood.
That has been the big thing with gray market machines the parts for them .You would think that they would be the same but they are not.
The 312 and 320 are very close to the US models. A friend of mine has a 320 the only thing different was it had 30 inch pads for swamp warks and a blade. The only thing with the blade was it had an extra cricuit for the hydralics in the rotary valve. It had to take a metric seal to fix that leak. Some of the Yanmar and Mitsubishi models Ill stay away from But weve owned a few Komatsus and Hitachis. THe hardest things Ive found to get parts for is the European grey market machines like **, some of the JD equipment.
My friend is a heavy equipment/ truck mechanic. I saw this thread and when i was at his shop today i asked him about grey market machines. He said a few of his customers have grey market caterpillar machines and they didn't seem to have a problem getting parts. I got my Rock and Dirt mag. yesterday and there are a lot of ads for caterpillar parts. One advertiser even specialized in grey market excavator parts, here is their website- www.cscparts.com Hope this helps.
Thanks for the information and the link. It's funny how I keep flip flopping back and forth and can't decide what I want to do I've decide to wait till spring (no use buying a machine that's going to sit for 4-5 months) to purchase a machine, so I've got lot's of time to decide which route to go. Thanks again for the information.
If you're looking to save money, remember- Hitachi and John Deere are the same Caterpillar and Mitsubishi were the same also in the 80's and early 90's i believe. Link-Belt and Sumitomo are the same Many Japense brands are the same or very similar to American machines, just different paint and names. You might want to look around now, sometimes equipment dealers try to make sales before the end of the year for their year end sales totals, might be able to get a good deal now.
Nothing wrong with JD/Hitchi and I'd buy one in an instant if they wouldn't have closed the local (15 minutes away) dealership a couple of years ago. Right now the closest JD dealer is about 70 miles away and cat 30 miles in the opposite direction. JD is in Tukwila where traffic can really suck and the hour+ drive can easily turn into 2+ hours. Even in the worst traffic the cat dealer is a 40 minute drive tops. I've also developed a pretty good working relationship with the cat dealership and they treat me well, so I'd like to keep giving them my business. Thanks for the idea though. I think this forum is going to be a real asset to a lot of us
grey market Be careful of these machines with questionable histories. I went to see a cat 307B with 1000 hours on it and found a rust bucket with (I am guessing) 5000 hours. This was from one of those direct importers (had 150+ machines in stock). You have to wonder, are the Asians so done with earth moving and selling idle iron cheap, so cheap that a broker can buy it overseas, step on it, ship it to the states, step on it again and still sell it 30% cheaper than local? As always, look over the iron and assume nothing.....B
I used to own a 311B (North American) and a grey market Yanmar mini. The mini's are OK to do, larger size like the 312 would be out of the question for me. If all warnings are in Japanese, don't buy it!
Thanks for the responses everyone. Between your responses and my own predjudice, I've made up my mind that the gray market machines are out. I'm not a gambling man (especially with my own money) and there's too much risk for me. My luck I'd pick a gray market lemon and be double jinxed
They are cheap for a reason I've had luck with the mini but once I had to wait 2 to 3 weeks for a track roller.
Komatsu PC75UU-1 I bought a Komatsu PC75UU-1 from Canada and have had pretty good luck with it. I did have it throw a rod and had to scrounge a motor from Canada but otherwise my local dealer, Modern Machinery, has taken care of me. There have been some high shipping costs getting parts from Japan. I only use this as a personal machine to work on my acreage, not as a commercial machine, so my experience may not be relevant for those of you who will use ths machine harder than I do.
we have 2 grey market machines, one ex 160 & one ex 150 Hitachi Both were purchased thru a dealer, and parts are no problem. I thought the only difference was political, ie, dealers circumventing the official North American inporters, which would explain the cost savings. The only difference I am aware of is that the factory radios are tuned to odd frequencies, so they never really pick up our radio stations! Also didn't get the same warranty.
Well, I just sold my Yanmar after 5 years. It was a great machine. I replaced it with a new Kubota KX121 5 ton class excavator. I'm about to do the first oil change today and it's a good machine so far.
GRAY MARKET MACHINES WORKING FOR A KOMATSU DEALER FOR OVER 25 YEARS, WE HAVE MANY CUSTOMERS WITH GRAY MARKET MACHINES(GMM). OUR CUSTOMERS HAVE PURCHASED NEW TO LOW HOUR GMM. THEY GET LOW PRICING ON THESE MACHINES MAINLY BECAUSE THERE IS NO WARRANTY FACTORED IN. KOMATSU, LIKE CATERPILLAR, MANUFACTURES MACHINES WORLD WIDE. EUROPE, CANADA, US, SOUTH AMERICA, AND ASIA. THE S/N OF THE MACHINE TELLS ALL. 90 TO 95 PERCENT OF THE MACHINES ARE THE SAME, BUT IT IS THE EUROPEAN MACHINES THAT HAVE THE MOST DIFFERENCES. AS USUAL, WHEN BUYING ANYTHING, KNOW YOUR PRODUCT.:usa
PC75/128 Class machines I am going to sell my PC75UU-1 and be in the market for either a PC75UU-2 or a PC128UU-1. What can you tell me about serial numbers and those machines? Any other buying tips? My -1 has been a bit of a parts hog and I would like to avoid that with the next machine.
PC75/PC128 THE PC75'S WERE NOT ORIGINALLY MARKETED IN THIS COUNTRY, SO PARTS ARE NOT AS READILY AVAILABLE AS THOSE MACHINES THAT ARE MARKETED HERE. HOWEVER THE PC75'S AND MANY OF THE OTHER MINI'S HAVE MANY COMMON PARTS. IF YOU OPT FOR THE PC128 STAY ABOVE S/N 2400. FROM THAT POINT ON THESE MACHINES WERE MARKETED FOR THE USA. EVEN IF YOU BUY A MACHINE THAT WAS ORIGINALLY FOR OVERSEAS MARKETS, YOU CAN STILL GET ALL THE DECALS IN ENGLISH THAT WILL DIRECTLY CORRESPOND TO IT. HOPE THIS HELPS.
I once worked for a crane company that had a grey market p&h truck crane powered by a cummins engine and the operator ran it hot and burned up the engine. I dont know what size cummins it was but they had to order all parts from japan. d**n for a cummins i figured it would come from north america
grey market I bought a GM Cat320L excavator about 2 years ago, I didnt realize it was a GM, until I needed a part. I went round and round with different Cat parts guys, until I found the one I needed. You can get all the parts you need for this machine, but you have got to have the parts book, for this machine in Japanese. The description is in Japanese, but the part numbers are in English, so you select the item you need and just get the part number and away you go. I have never needed a part, that I couldnt get the next day. If anyone needs any help with Cat greymarket parts, send me a PM and I will give you this guys name and number. In my opinion, the price for a GM machine should be less, so thats a point you might use, if you are buying one Just my 2 cents worth
I have heard Komatsu and Hitachi are ok for parts and service from your dealer but to run from Cat and Kobelco.
We've had good luck getting parts for both GM cat and hitachi. When ever we think about buying a machine, we call the dealer with the serial # and have them check to see if they have it listed in thier books. Saves some headaches.
I had a GM kubota kx-91 equal and the serial # did nothing to help get parts. some parts fit perfect, some could be modified, and others just would not work. I would research very carefully before getting any other GM machinery.
looking for parts for a kobelco sk 200
we own two three 312s one gray market one American. Every time we have had to get parts we have not had a problem. I wouldnt question buying another gray market machine again. Best machine we have ever owned. I dont no how true it is the when we bought 1997 gray market 312 they told us that cat builds both the machines in japan and the they just have two diffrent assmbly lines and stamp two diffrent assmbly numbers. But then again who knows how true that its.
grey market I agree, as I stated before, I have a GM Cat 320, and havent had any problems with parts. As I was told my Cat, the only difference in the machines, are the safety devices. The US requires special safety thingeees.
when buying a grey market machine is there problums getting them fixed by local dealers
grey market Not that Im aware of, they dont mind taking that $100 and hour, for anything. I would say, the only draw back about a grey market machine, that Ive found is, the questions being asked here. I would have asked the same questions, before I bought my GM Cat 320L, but I wasnt told it was a GM machine. I should have called Cat, with the serial number. Now if they Had told me, that it was a GM machine, I still would have bought it. Besides, replacing the A/C system and radiator, thats all the problems Ive had, in 2 1/2 years and the machine had 10,000 hrs on it when I got it. Good Luck
Parts I have a Kobelco which I recently found out is grey market. I am having a heck of time finding replacement track for it. Does anyone know of a supplier I might contact
Track If you can get me the model and sn # also the number of links in the tracks I may be able to help and pad size
Track Pads are 20 inch wide there are 44 links now but some could have been removed. Its a 120 Superversion and the vin is LP- 11251
Grey market machines are a gamble, pretty much that simple. You can save 15-40% on a purchase, however John Deere/Hitachi does not support these machines. Of course their are some dealers who will still assist these customers, but that doesn't warranty any favorable outcome. In the past 10years I have worked on countless grey market excavators, some are very similar to the U.S. versions and then some are not. We have had problems with rotary manifolds being different, control valves, pumps, motors, engines, cylinder kits, rollers, so you never know. I have seen countless customers pulling their hair out, trying to get the right part. The customer may pay $50K for a $80K machine, but when a $500 part fails the "sweet deal" become not so sweet. Essentiallly rendering that machine worthless, it has to go back to the auction and the customer has to cross their fingers. Personally I don't have the nerve for that gamble, of course there is the exception. You could buy a grey have it for a few years not have any real failures that you can't fix and all is well. I give it 50/50 at best, that's roulette odds as far as I am concerned. I guess the question is: Are you in a position to be able to cover the possible loss if this machine fails. I would not make a grey market my top production machine, more like a backup or a secondary project machine.
that's what i was told by a cat man i wound up getting a pretty good deal on a mitsubishi, but if i was forced into buying a grey market machine, i would have checked availability of parts before i bought it. i did check on a few and did find some sources on the internet. skip
Welcome to the Forums Skip!:drinkup
thanks, joined to see if anyone could help me with my problem with my mitsubishi mx 45. everything works but the joy stick controles. makes it a bit difficult to operate. lol i 1st thought it might be the safety lever but when i bypassed it, they still didn't work. anyone have any ideas? also could use a wiring schematic. this is my 1st machine and already got a problem !! would appreciate any input skip
I've owned several GM machines. ranging from a cat 307 mitsu 120 cast 311 and currently a cat 313. Here are some tips Ive learned when purchasing gm equipment or any used equipment for that matter: First of all DO NOT buy any brand x machine. Stick with the names you know. As in Cat , Hitachi, Komatsu . The reason for this is parts supply. At some point you will have a breakdown and are going to need parts.You are much more likely to be able to find what you need from a major dealer. You might pay more when you purchase the machine but all it takes is spending 2 weeks down or more to make up for it trust me. Once you find a machine you want call the local dealer and have them send out a mechanic and go over the machine. It's going to cost you $1,000 or so but they will check the % on the final drives , check for metal particulates in all the oils, as well as be able to assess the over all quality and life of the machine. Most importantly they will pull the serial #'s off the machine and make sure they all match manufacturers data base. As an example when I was looking for the 313 I was close to making a deal with a guy in florida. I had the local cat dealer come out and what was supposed to be a 2005 machine with 500 hrs ended up being a 2003 machine with 3000 hrs with a serial plate on the machine from a 2000 315 not 313. Cost me a grand but saved me a ton in the long run. Ive never had a problem getting parts for the several machines Ive had.
Hi, first post for this forum. I am experienced in CAT Grey Iron. Dealt with C's and D series grey iron stuff. Have also had a lot of dealings with 308BSR, 308BCR, 313BSR and compatible stuff. The C series and D series grey iron do differ a lot, but mainly in wiring, slight engine parts, some pumps and hydraulic parts are different and most of all, the arrangent of the tractor is different to that sold and serviced in known Cat territory outside of Japan. These machines are "only" made for the Japanese market, that can source parts directly from their own parts marketing. This is why there is problems when sourcing parts outside of Japan. The only advice I can give, is to ask to for the English Parts / Operation books for the equivilent machines in your territory. You will have to use a serial number prefix that is usually found in your territory, as the Japanese Serial numbers don't have an equivilent to Overseas areas. You can buy the Japanese Parts Books, but it is very difficult to find some machines though. You then have to use an English book and the Japanese book together and make sure the parts you want, don't differ. Some things that are "japanese market" only, usually a locally ordered equivilent will sometimes do (eg lights, mirrors, seats, hydraulics hoses, some filters etc etc) A lot of people complain that "I can't find parts", but no one looks outside the box. Use what you can off an equivilent model numbered machine from your territory area. (keep an open mind) Fortunately, some D series excavators, Cat are only just supporting the Grey Iron now (as in the last few weeks/months). Very slow on the uptake, but that's what you get.
We have a Komatsu PC100 gray market machine with swamp tracks and 7 tooth sprocket which needs replacing am trying to match 21 t sprocket and the closest thing i find in US is the PC 200 sprocket Could the 100 be mounted on 200 roller frame?
Does it have a depth computor ? If so it will need to be manualy reset as it will deactivate the joysticks . Also look for damaged/disconected wires on the boom sensors .
FYI, it is the same track as the Kobelco SK115DZ IV, SK120LC-III, SK120LC-IV and SK130LC-IV, the only difference is the amount of links.
i have a cat 312 from japan and never had a problem with parts.
I have four grey market excavators. The one from europe is the most difficult and the most expensive. The three from Japan I find the parts as needed. It is the dealers that feel you are some kind of ingrate. The savings is worth it. I have an american made machine and I have issues that were no less frustrating.
New Member Question I'm currently looking at gray market yanmars. Who are the best sources for manuals and parts? Thanks in advance.
I have a 150 gray market. Komatsu emails japan if they don't know I bought a parts book right away. The only thing they have never found was the AC relay, but it has not broke. I don't think there is much difference in gray Komatsu. The big deal is coming you are going to have problems with EPA.
I own plenty of gray market machines. you cannot beat the savings. The big dealers may try to scare you but I have never had problems with parts. I have my own parts manuals so when i call the dealer i already have a part number and they don't have to sweet their pretty little heads.
Another thing you might want to think about. 1. Many people this day are looking for any angle they can find to bring a lawsuit against a business owner. If you have an employee hurt on or by a Grey Market machine that may or may not have some safety feature that regular machine would you may have an increased liability? 2. Will Grey Marketequipment give you issues with your workmen`s comp and insurance carrier? 3. I was working on a job one time and witnessed the following. A OSHA inspector just stopped by to walk thru the job. He fined a carpenter for having a knock off Harbor Freight type miter saw. Because it did not have a safety on the start button. The carpenter had to pay this not the contractor. And he was not even using the tool it was on his truck. I did not know they have right to look in tool box of an employees truck if it is parked on the site.
I have found that no matter what type of machine it is when its broke down there is a problem,however when it is a gray market like the ex-120-2 that I am workingon now,it is almost impossable to get a wiring or hyd schemetic on it.
DK I know this is an old post, but I am in the market for and excavator. How can you tell if it is a grey market machine vs. North American version?
Pay attention to Micbare above. Safety issues can and WILL cause problems. Just dreaming, can come up with at least 10 lawsuits involving gray market machines of various manufacturers. Yes, they involved ambulence chacing lawyers. Mini's overseas do not need or have ROPS..only North America. Japanese excavator usually do not have back up alarms. If there is no ENGLISH operator's manual, OSHA can fine you..or safety decals. EU safety decals are DEFINATLY different than North American decals, as are lift charts. Guards probably are different. NA machines are optimized for lifting, EU and Oriental machines, where using an excavator for a crane is illegal ,are not and on and on.
Yanmar parts I've owned my yanmar vio40 grey market for 10 years now and its been a great machine. Dominion equipment parts http://depparts.com/ will get any yanmar part you need. mines a gray market and they have gotten even the smallest parts i needed
thers a guy from meeker, ok. that has some real small komatsu tracked hoes with pusher blades listed probably bring around 6 or 7 grand. light weight and digs about 6 ft deep
Grey Market Machines I have two grey market machines. An Hitachi EX55, 12,000 # with hydraulic thumb. And a PC30 Komatsu, 7,000 # with hydraulic thumb. Komatsu parts are not hard to come by, from the Komatsu dealer. But I have had my trials with John Deere trying to get parts for the Hitachi. I have had really good luck with both machines, they were low hours when purchased so lots of life left. Biggest problem is the rubber tracks. If you have to replace make sure you get the best quality. There are some real cheapos out there. When I bought the Hitachi it needed tracks. I lucked out and got the right people the first time. Those tracks have lasted me 3 years and should go at least another year. The Komatsu had new tracks on it when I bought it but they only lasted 1 year and then I had to replace them. :usa
We have a Sumitomo SH200 that I need a new muffler for. So far, I have had no luck in the US finding parts. It is a grey market machine. Australia is the closest place I've found so far. It'd be nice to locate a parts place here in the US. Adam
You will have to go to a Link-Belt or Case dealer and usually they aren't too helpful with parts since yours is gray market. Find one of those two machines and use their serial number to get your part. Good Luck?
It might be cheaper and easier to fabricate one to work on that machine.
What is your machine serial number. I can get you a Linkbelt part number for the muffler if you get me the complete serial number. Then you can get it from Linkbelt.
As for Grey market machines taking 2 to 3 weeks to get parts - I have a JD and if it isn't something he stocks, it will take 2 weeks to get it, especially gaskets.
Gray market I have had several and never had a probkem getting parts from Cat.While the parts people grumbled I never had to wait longer than over night. When looking these over for purchase look at them as you would any used machine. It is harder to change hr. meters now since most are computer operated
A grey market Deere? Excavator? That's a new one to me. What model?
Is "grey" market any machine made over seas?
It is a machine not originally sold/purchased in your country. from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market
they are machines made witout the safety requirements of the United States. They were never intended for sales here. Some are the same as ones the were sold here but they were'nt allowed to be sold due to agreement with major company that put their name on them. Example is my Yanmar is the exact came Machine as a Komatsu sold here. Yanmar wouldn't sell me parts because it was an agreement with Komatsu. Go to the Komatsu dealer and parts I ordered said Yanmar on the box.
Gray market just means a used machine that was manufactured to be sold in one part of the world was moved to another part of the world and sold. It doesn't necessarily mean the machine does not meet emissions or safety regulations for any one country. All have to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Most of the manufacturers support the gray market machines to some extent but some don't support them at all. For instance, you will be hard pressed to find some parts for a Cat brand machine while Komatsu or Hitachi will be able to supply almost any part you can get a part number on. The biggest factor on gray market machines is that they are all used. New machines not built for the US market will not be sold here. The rub comes in at the number of hours can be shown on the machine and still be called used. Hope this helps.
Many of the companies selling G M excavators repaint and change the decals to make it look the same as the US version. Does anyone know of a list of G M Hitachi serial numbers? Anyway of knowing without calling the Hitachi dealer?
Have bit of a grasp on Japanese Domestic S/no's..What are you wanting to know??
this mat help if its a grey market komatsu http://www.komatsupartsbook.com/ and what control patern do grey market excavators have
Mitsubishi ME25 Parts please help Guys I am New to this but I just Bought a Mitsubishi ME25 Excavator Ser#E4E00573 I have already a Mitsubishi Bd2gII dozer and have always gotten parts from Rhine Equip. but they tell me that They can not get parts or manuals for this machine am I in trouble here or is there a way to get parts and manuals for this machine any help would be appreciated.
YANMAR is one of easys 1 to get parts for any part in less than 2 weeks, try that from john deere or cat
Never waited over two days from cat or deere.Gray market or not
grey market the cheaper way to go i;m in pa.no good dealerships here
We are not supposed to call them gray iron anymore. Now they are called out of market machines. Most Cat gray iron is the same as US sold machine. They do have subtle differences but generally parts can be found by looking at similar US machine. we have imported plenty of machines from Germany, France and Japan. We just change the safety warning that are in the foreign language. It seems like the newer machines are not like the older ones and most are made to be sold in any country.
Not a thing wrong with grey machines, jap machines dug the world and backfilled it too whilst cat was broken down with fancy van and a fancy bunch of uniforms telling you your machine is broken down, whilst your gray machine digs rings round it,im contractor I know these things, I have heard the salesman bs and the mechanics bs from cat an a their brainwashed staff, parts are not problem for jap euro machines,thats what the internet is fpr
you;ll be sorry super duty john yanmar the best
Gray market is the cheaper way to go, not necessarily a bad way though
Right Excavator Parts :bash Hi..The main thing about excavators is the selection of right parts.. High Quality Excavator Parts should be used according to the directions of manufacturer.
Grey Market bobcats Has anyone on here seen a grey market bobcat. The reason i am wandering is i was at a ricthie sale and there where alot of Bobcat and they had TCM decals in the middle arm along with the lower bobcat ones and the nameplate read "manufactered under license from Clark Equipment by TOYO UMPANKI" so they where made in japan TCM also made MITCHAGEN LOADERS under license.
Hi there Spanrz, I recently bought a 308BCR on the Sunny Coast and was wondering if you could help me out with finding an English manual preferably and a part stockist downunder or US that could help me out in the future. Many Thanks. Morgs
I have a PC40-7 Japanese all over it komatsu dealer got my parts with no problem. changed tracks, upper rollers. starter Otherwise I love this machine
Last week I ordered an air filter duct from my air filter to my engine on a CAT E70B. At least I thought I bought a E70B two years ago, only to find out a few months later, it was rebadged by CAT from a Mitsubishi MS070. Anyway, CAT had the air duct in stock and it was ordered, but found out today it is frozen by CAT as a grey market part. My CAT parts person is checking more into this CAT freeze. Parts on the shelf, that they had made, and they are not selling them. Sounds like a group lawsuit waiting to happen. Oh yeah............I have the Mitsubishi parts manual and it is in English hugs, Brandi
Brandi, what is the CAT and if different the Mitsi part number(s)? The E series were all Catabishis as far as I know.
AO3415711 is the Mitsi number and it is called a Hose, Air Intake. I called too late to get the CAT number from my parts lady. I'll get that in the morning I want to get the CAT number to google it also. hugs, Brandi
Lantraxco, The CAT Air Intake Hose part number is 093-1192. Now, my parts lady spent numerous phone calls with CAT parts and CAT Tech. Bottom line she was told to call Morton direct and order my air intake hose directly over the phone and not online. So it is on order again and suppose to be here Friday. I hope. hugs, Brandi
Means it's coming from overseas parts depot, most likely Singapore, though it could be Grimbergen Belgium, they built the E70B in France also. The phone call means a CAT parts specialist has to do a special release to get it in the air, probably because it's a non stock item here in the Americas. Not unusual in my world, lol. Good luck!
Could be. But I have heard of CAT "freezing" parts before. The owner of the shop that rebuilt my bucket and H link bushings last year, told me a CAT owner they knew had new CATs for his business and bought a grey market machine for his home use and CAT shut him out of all parts. So the shoe seems to fit here. I don't care where it comes from as long as it gets in my hands, as I paid for when I was told they had 3 on the shelf in Morton, last week. hugs, Brandi
You never know. I worked for the CAT dealer in Portland Oregon for a few years, we never had the slightest issue getting grey market parts for our shop or our customers. Things may have changed since then or more likely it's a dealer issue. CAT factory at that time at least didn't care at all, a part was a part and a hundred yen was a dollar. If the US was zero stock though you did have to call an analyst and request shipping from overseas it didn't happen automatically. At the end of the day if you get the part and it's right, that's all that matters!
I went to my CAT dealer this morning for the hose and two oil filters. I was told the intake hose would be in about a week and it was coming from Germany. I thought...............Lantraxco was so right. So I left and this afternoon got a call from the CAT parts lady telling me my hose was in. Then I was told the part had been on the shelf in Morton and was frozen. She also said because it was a "griefed"grey market part. Whatever you call it, I have it installed now. hugs, Brandi
Good grief Charlie Brown.... make up my mind already CATman.