I had some spare time as it is winter here and things slow down so I decided to get my self some hard face wire and do some welding on our 160 Deere excavator bucket. Thought I would take a pic see what you guys think. My first time hard facing. The bucket probably should have had some hard facing done a while ago as the bucket it quite worn already.
hard facing buckrt looks good and it will really be worth time spent. hard facing is really differnt to run isnt it. i replaced the bottom on a 312 car hoe and i put ar400 wear strips and a new cat t1 edge. heres a few pics of it
That is indeed a dying art of the heavy equipment world, I remember seeing (and watching) the local people getting their D-8 blades done when I was a kid. My favourite was the checker board pattern.
don't know what dif it makes, but i was taught to hardwire in an "x" pattern. that way the inside of the welds fill full of dirt, and you have dirt wearing on dirt instead of on the tool.
dayexco That sure makes sense to weld in an X pattern I don't know if i feel like doing all the rest to make the X that is a lot more welding.
I cut out and saved a artical in a equipment magazine a few months back about hard facing.Patterns definatly does matter.Cant remember exactly what the artical said but do remember some of it,paraller pattern for rock so the rock ride up on the welds,checker/square,for soil as the soil will pack in the squares so it will protect the bucket,cant really remember anything else.Did anybody else see the artical or have anyother imput?
looks like a job well done:drinkup how many hours did it take?
I didn’t keep track of my time. I did a bunch of a bunch of days. If I were to guess I would say about 8 hours give or take an hour or two.
looks like fun
Looks good i'll get some pics of my buckets.I like the checker board pattern hold the dirt in the squares and wears dirt on dirt.But the way i look at it anything is better than nothing.I love to see buckets that are all worn out and all it take is a little hardfacing..Did you do between the shanks on the cutting edge.. glen
Yes I did between the shanks on the cutting edge. Just a couple of iches on the bottom and about 6 inches on the inside.
here's how we do our buckets and teeth.
nice job
Generally speaking, putting hardface on large areas is a waste of time and costly to boot. Better to weld on some good AR strips and plates or even mild steel. Old cutting edges are excellent for this. Hardfacing your wear tips is not too good an idea either. The bead of hardface rod creates high stress cracks in the underlying base metal and the teeth then tend to break easily. It's always better to protect high wear areas before using the GET in the dirt. Also better to protect areas between shanks and adaptors with replaceable sacrificial metal rather than hardface. Same principle as above applys to the high stress areas where adaptors are welded onto bucket edges. Hardfacing creates distinct stresses next to those adaptors and they are then at increased risk of just ripping off or breaking when they hit a tough item. They sometimes take a big chunk of the base edge with them. Not good! This isn't to say that hardfacing is all bad, but it's a niche item these days, mostly only used in smaller areas where installing other types of protection isn't possible or feasable. Cost of rod and labor to install is just too high.
several things in defense of how we do things. we very seldom see rock up here. we deal primarily w/abrasion, not impact like other parts of the nation that work daily prying/pulling/breaking ledge rock. we may find a random rock in our soil that maybe the size of a basketball. 2nd thing, our ground is frozen this time of year, have several key people we keep on year around so we don't lose them come spring, it gives them something to do, so time is not the primary concern here. i think the last roll of wire i bought was $150.00...i've seen in quarries in other part of nation where they plate up the way you've described. no doubt a better way of doing it. we've never broken a tooth or chunked out a bucket after hard surfacing. we go from 1/2 to a full season on the teeth after running a few beads of wire down them. in fact, most of our digging is done with gummer "toothless" buckets.
We don't do a much hardfaceing anymore, only on areas where it is tough to plate. We use old truck leaf springs for wear plates, they are made of some good steel and wear well. Still have a couple buckets around with the teeth welded on and we build them back up with weld when they wear down. You have to be carefull with them at first, untill the weld hardens, or you can chip or break them. Once you dig with it for a day or two they work harden and are just as good as normal teeth. Like dayexco we have a lot to do in the winter so time isn't a concern, and our labor prices are not very high so it doesn't cost much more to build teeth than buy them. Even so I would rather buy teeth and spend the time welding on parts that are not easily replaced, or doing other repairs. Years ago someone hardfaced the back bucket on our 4500 backhoe , I think it was a little over kill, but we havent had to weld it up since.
Many of the above are right in my book. Hard facing is labour intensive and a waste of time for large areas. I have found it better to weld on waste products which trap the dirt, thus giving a dirt on dirt wear surface which replaces itself during operation. I have used old cutting edges and reinforcing-bar made for concrete, as both are cheap and easily welded on. Of course for tips, hard facing is a must. Be sure to apply a "buttering run" of softer weld under the hard face weld to make it stick better and reduce chipping of harder parent material........C ya.......Ray
looks pretty good.
Hobart Brothers has a good overview of Hard Surfacing Tips and Techniques . It contains the high points as described in my Arc Welding Procedures Handbook and my Handbook of Construction Equipment Maintenance. The specific filler you choose will specify how much pre-heating and weld peening is recommended. Patterns are chosen by the type of soil you are digging. The only point they did not touch on was hard surfacing bucket teeth. As Surfer-Joe pointed out, hard surfacing teeth may not be a good idea. If you choose to add hard surfacing to teeth only apply it to the top or the bottom of each tooth, not both. This will allow the tooth to self sharpen by abrading away only one surface. If you apply hard surfacing to both top and bottom the tooth will wear to dull point and stay there.
We have a pc 300 in a ledge quarry, and 6 weeks is about all we can get out of a rebuilt bucket before it has to be rebuilt. We have tried many different things, including coupons made of truck spring steel, ar plate, 45mm drill steel rods, and hardfacing (stoody 19. mackay 118). Nothing seems to last very well. We do not have a spare bucket for the machine and it takes 1 week maybe to repair. Anybody got any ideas? anybody tried the mechanically connected wear coupons like cat sells? They seem pretty expensive, wonder if they are worth it. any input or experience would be helpful...thanx tc
stepsideclyde, You are working in hard rock, right? Well, buy a good used bucket in decent shape and weld it up into the condition you want. Buy a new bucket if you can. Then switch it out with your original bucket as needed. Result is little down time. Machine is working with spare bucket and you build on other bucket when time permits or as needed. As to what you need to protect on the buckets, it's usually the inside and outside of the leading edges of the cheeks, and the bottom, also part way up the back, and the cutting edge plus the tooth adapters. Sacrificial metal plates are best on the bottom, sides and back. Faster to install too. Kennametal is probably the best wear patches, but expensive. Stoody hardface is pretty good rod, again expensive, The biggest expense is labor, that's why wear strips and patches are better. Just use 7018 to weld them on. Don't use hard face rod. 7018 is cheaper. You can buy teeth with hard face material already installed. They work well and the way they make them is better than homemade hardface work. Probably best if you do not hardface the shank adapters. Hardface welds create stress fractures in base metal, which can weaken the adapter into breaking off. I'd leave the area in-between the teeth on the bucket cutting edge alone for the same reason. It's already hardened metal and welding on it causes problems, especially if it's worn down some. When the cutting edge wears out or breaks, replace it w/new. Oh, when it comes to the bucket bottom, wait till the first replacement, then use material that's about 1/4 to 3/8 inches thicker. Gives you better structural strength on the bottom and it lasts longer. Don't use AS 360 or AS 400 for this, A36 is just fine and it's cheaper. You can weld on some wear patches or strips to the bottom though. So far as the mounting brackets, watch them carefully for stress fractures and cracks or ripping. You can reinforce those areas with anything up to 1" plate, again A36 is fine. If cracks appear, do not leave them alone for long, repair as quickly as you can. Gouge out with Arc-Air torch, grind all the carbon and slag out of grove, (very important to grind out) then backfill with good 7018 weld. Let all hot welds cool naturally, do not use water to cool off. Don't get the cheeks so built up that the excavator can't pull the bucket thorough the cut. If you find the operator using the bucket and boom as a battering ram, fire him (or her)! Grease bucket linkage several times a day, religiously. I've probably forgotten a thing or two here, but it's a start. Good Luck!
hard facing hello every body,my understanding of hard facing is that the welds holds the dirt on the faces so that it is the dirt that stops the wear ,not the weld ,like on the faces of ripper shanks and tips ,dozer blade cutting edges,in coal they weld strips of steel to save the faces so coal sticks in between the strips ,bruce oz
Right on, bruce from oz. I've welded miles of old cutting edges on dozer faces to cut down on wear. In hard rock however, the rock doesn't stick between the wear strips, so the strips have to become true wear prevention items. Operators do have a small, yet legitimate complaint with dozer face wear strips however. It's a fact that dirt does not "roll" well over the strips, thus causing increased drag in the load, and increasing power and fuel consumption. So, if you have more dirt than rock, you wait till the bottom part of the dozer face plate is worn out, then you replace that part with a new, thicker plate without wear strips of any kind. You usually do not need to replace the entire face plate as it's only the lower half or one third that needs replacement. Generally not a good idea to hardface a face plate. Excepting maybe the outer faces above the corner bits, and then not too high up. One more "bad" thing about the extra weight you weld on a dozer blade and sometimes the push arms is that with increased weight comes increased wear and tear in the suspension and track frames. It may not show up right away, but all that protection comes with a price to be paid eventually.
I would like to know if anyone has melted on some tungsten carbide .. I put some on a cub cadete mower blades once ,, it is still there , cant put a keen edge on it , but it is as tuff as it gets
The welders were I work, rigged up a rig to do this at one time, fabbed up a hopper with a electrical solenoid valve. Tube ran from the hopper to a bracket attached to the nozzle of the mig gun. Was wired so that when you pulled the trigger on the mig gun, the valve would open, allowing the carbide to run down the tube, and into the weld puddle. Did not work exactly like factory, lots of bugs.. they had to add a vibrator to the hopper to help shake the carbide down, and if it was damp it would not run so well. Then they lost interest and went on to other things, Surfer, unfortunatly the cost of a spare bucket, in managements eyes, is prohibitive. About 20 grand I think was the number they tossed around... and yea, the rock is hard, drilled and blasted State O' Maine ledge. And it tears every thing up at the crusher, jaw plates, cones, screens, hoppers, everything it come in contact with. tc
Anytime I look at a machine one of the first things I look for is hardfacing. Tells me a lot about the owner. To me it's like grease - cheap preventative maintenance. While there are exceptions for most applications it's a very cost effective way of increasing the life of a GET. Having said that, I'm also pretty quick to use wear plate on certain jobs, and I have never tried to hardface teeth, ripper boots or cutting edges. I view these as sacificial, designed to wear out and be replaced as required. But on a bucket, blade or ripper shank I always hardface. Mostly I use a diamond pattern, welds run about 4 to 5 inches apart. Then run over them again to increase the height. Doing it this way is a far more effective way of using a given amount of rods/ wire and time than running a tighter pattern. The increase in height holds dirt better than a tighter low pattern. On a blade I run diamonds on each side. The middle of my blades are all reinforced with a push pad so I don't worry about it too much. Rippers I do the back edge with straight lines, diamonds on the sides, and let the front wear back to a v before welding on bisalloy wear strips cut to suit. Buckets I do the outside bottom and sides in diamonds, the inside gets nothing because I hate it when everything wants to stick in there if it gets wet. Works for me.
A few details Just to add to the above. When we hardface with rods we run one GP rod, then hardface over the top immediately. We may then run another hardfacing rod straight over it if it needs more build up. The GP serves to preheat the steel. Lay the handpiece right back on the GP to give a wide flat weld and then bring the Hardfacing over at a steep angle to get height. With the migs we do the same, although we don't normally run a plain wire first. Instead we run short runs of hardface and then come back over it straight away. Yes, it's a lot slower that way. But as I said it works for me.
I have been looking for mig hardfacing wire with no luck. I have a miller 200 with i believe .035 wire running in it now. Anyone have any ideas of what wire to get and where? Thanks Brian
Here you go sun, Lincoln Hardfacing Electrodes scroll down and it will show the hardfacing wire. I would try your local welding supply and see which one they recommend for what your doing.
http://www.postle.com/hardface/weartechnology.htm this place has all kinds of hard facing stuff
Ah HardFacing. Behind Air-Arcing this has to be the worst kind of job for a weldor. Lots or spatter, Big ball's of the stuff flying around. Nice Job guys. On this job they weldors use old 24 Grader edges for wear plates so Hardfacing isnt used as much only on the big coal loader buckets.
I dont mind the arc-air.. you just have to know where to stand, and nobody bothers you when you are on the torch. maybe has something to do with the noise and airborne molten metal. where I work we go through bucket lips, sides, bottoms, tops etc.. like mad. but the welders never seem to do much hardfacing, my theory is they don't want the buckets to last too long, so they will always have a job. we wear the buckets till the lip falls off, then slap a new one on. but we work in the hardest rock in the world. we have been trying a few different teeth lately, but they go pretty fast as well. the ongoing battle of steel vs rock
People tend to scatter because of the Noise, Smoke and Light produced! 4100 Buckets get cycled once they are done like you said, Work for the guys! Hardfacing a L1850 Bucket takes a long time, Very labour intensive .... $$$$$$
Keep in mind the chromium in hardfacing smoke is known to cause cancer The hard & ultra hardface is meant to be done 2 layers only, if more is required you are suppose to use buildup rod as a cushion I have not bought any in a number of yrs but it was quite pricey yrs ago. The material you are dealing with realy decides if it practical to hardface. In my area there is so much hard rock. cracks quite often start at hardface- it is more effective to add or replace wear pl. I have not read any recent lit. but Cat use to recommend against doing hardface on edges or teeth for this reason As I said it depends material- also application.
I am not following this Haul-Pak Posts: 24 Ah HardFacing. Behind Air-Arcing this has to be the worst kind of job for a weldor. Do you mean lousy job to do or you gouge out before hardfacing?
I dont do Arc-Air or H/Facing ... No sir, Wont catch me within 20mts of that sort of stuff in the shop. I mean Lousy job for them guys to do 12hrs a day. I dont know about Gouging before H/Facing as I am not a weldor. I do the odd Welding Job (Mig = Easy for amature) And the Odd heating, Cutting and bending jobs. Union will have a field day if I picked up a torch or started to Weld the weldors out of a job.