Hello everyone, My name is Mark, I'm from Germany and I just started a construction company so I'm looking for used construction equipment at a reasonable price to start with. As you can see neither I'm from the US nor have I any advanced knowledge about heavy equipment. Anyways, as this is the only forum I found about this particular topic I figured this might be a good place to seek for help. After scanning the internet I found that there are huge price gaps between Germany and China when it comes to heavy equipment. This might be quite normal not only with construction equipment but I'm talking about +50k for something like a CAT950. The same goes with excavators etc. Of course there have to be made some compromises when it comes to quality and condition but as long as I only need this for a couple of month before reselling it and it's working, why not? What do you guys think, are there any more drawbacks on this which i overlooked? Greetings from Germany
I work for a contractor that does municipal size sewer projects. Down time = $$$. Therefore, I mainly utilize Caterpillar excavators (mostly 8yrs and younger), because...out of all the brands we operate, parts availability is of the utmost importance, shortly followed by dealer repair knowledge
Parts and service are everything. If you can’t get that then you have a worthless machine when it goes down and the money saved on purchase will be a distant memory to the money it costs to replace the machine with a rental or purchase
I also have Komatsu, Deere, Takeuchi, Yanmar, IHI, Case, Kobelco and a few others. This list is in order of preference based on parts availability and dealer knowledge. If you're not a wrench turner, the dealer makes all the difference in the world. Unlike automobiles, heavy equipment can need more attention and know how to keep running.
I don't quite understand what you are asking for. Are talking about price differentials between that made in Germany and China and which you might purchase for your construction company? From my perspective, equipment made in Germany is very expensive here in the states and in a lot of cases is not highly thought of because of price, repair procedures and trained personnel, parts availability and reliability. Liebherr is the perfect example. You see it in the crane and material handling industries pretty regularly but not across the board in construction and mining. I've seen plenty of scrap handlers sitting for weeks or months waiting for parts and some extremely expensive components that have had short life spans with virtually no one having the ability locally to repair them. The reason they do OK in those markets is because competition is relatively weak or other makes carry the same stigma that is accepted as part of doing business in those industries. The stuff made in China carries the opposite stigma. The manufacturers are at least a generation of machine behind makes built in the States and no where near the quality of materials and engineering. You just aren't going to see a lot of Liugong wheel loaders here because very few people trust them to stay running in the middle of a high stakes project. Now if you are talking about buying known brands that were built in China and imported here like Caterpillar, those are a different story. Most likely the imports will have less refinements in operator comfort but will carry some quality control and seem to work out OK. Even that is a risky venture as parts supply might be limited by a dealer that doesn't care to support a gray market machine. Tariffs and currency exchange rates also affect the availability of those machines. It all boils down to "getting what you pay for."
X100 on everything said above.
I would add that if you buy a Chinese manufactured name brand machine, make sure it is not a black market copy of what you think you are buying. There are plenty of them out there with no part support, and many Cat parts will not fit. Often close but no cigar.
Quite a few things IMHO. I understand your specific requirement for one or more machines to execute a specific project in a limited time frame. However the question might be posed as to why this is, if you have just started a construction company are you not in it for the "long haul", so why are you looking for short-term equipment..? Under-financed by any chance..? 1. Where are you going to get parts & service for the equipment..? (Heavy equipment is not like your car where you simply fill the tank with fuel when the low fuel warning light comes on) You will need parts, even if they are only basic maintenance items such as filters, fan belts, etc. 2. Who do you expect to buy the used equipment from you after it has completed your project unless it's someone else in exactly the same position as you who wants equipment for a short space of time..? Not exactly a large potential market is it..? You could have the equipment on your hands for a long time before you find a buyer for it unless you are prepared to offload it at rock-bottom prices.
Another thing about Chinese machinery and tools is metalurgy. They just don't seem to care. You might find a tractor or machine that is an "exact copy" of a Japanese or American make, but you won't be able to keep it running because the metal is too soft or too brittle.
Just use different materials. Now machinery chinese brand is good,we care very much.)
After seeing first hand some Chinese machinists economy work I would have to say yes you can get quality from Chinese suppliers but it won't be much cheaper than an established loocal manufacturer. With the price differences the OP is referencing I wouldn't touch that equipment.
This right here. I have been to China twice back during the 2000's and any American or European branded anything was fake. Fake Coke, Marlboro, Rolex, luggage, purses, shoes, etc, etc. Went to a business meeting and had an American pack of Marlboro Lights - you would've thought I had the secret to the Universe, everyone begged for a real smoke. We went to a very large trade show in Guanzhou and there was a copy D6H out in the parking lot. The fit and finish on the machine up close and sitting in the cab was horrible. I've seen some "Cat" machines advertised on MT from China that don't look like real Cats and I would suspect a cheap copy. Think heavy equipment chop shop - you get what you pay for.
I am glad you know that most Caterpillar parts are made in China and imported to North America. I see so many people with a stink on parts from China
There is a big difference between American or Japanese companies building parts in China and the Chinese trying to copy said parts . . .
I have said this before in other post, Chinese made equipment will continue to improve and be as good or better than that made in other countries. That may not be a popular statement, but if you look at other industries (defense for sure), it stands to reason. The methods they use to achieve that is another discussion. Certainly not all of it will be that good, no different than the various levels of quality from different companies from other countries. However, I don't think anyone can say that Sany hasn't learned a lot since they first started marketing machines in North America. That said, I am more concerned about the geopolitical aspects of it. China is about ready to take over Tiawan, they have publicly said so. Does the US level tariffs on Chinese made products or prevents products and parts to come it? What if a more serious conflict occurs between China and the US? How can that impact your business if your all in on a Chinese product? Issues you don't think about with Japan, S. Korea and the EU. I think this an issue that you have to at least consider when buying an all Chinese built machine.
What would happen if you have Jap or Korean stuff? Do you not think any shipping will be compromised like the Germans did with uboat attacks on shipping in WWII?
He is talking about more subtle issues than another world war. It is a thing to consider for certain, @KSSS . You could be left with a product that you cannot get parts for. An example would be the F-14 Tomcats that the US sold to Iran. **This post is not about the politics** The US pulled support on those, and they have managed to keep 24 of them out of the original 79 flying, but not without considerable effort and cost. As a small business owner, nobody is going to come to your rescue if you end up on the wrong side of a conflict. The market will react and alternatives will get made, but at a substantial cost. In the mean time you could be left holding an expensive paperweight.
My point exactly.
There is a big difference of China made parts with poor quality control and great quality control. Most of the time what you buy no days is quality control, ie how much gets tossed into the iron bin in the usa
It's basic protections you need to put into place. You never throw all your eggs into the one basket. People in business with machinery have made the mistake of buying all one brand and sticking to it exclusively - and then get treated badly by the manufacturer, because they rarely return the customer loyalty. I never did, I bought Cat and Komatsu, and made sure Cat paid dearly for treating me like a doormat. After I built up a fleet of 55 machines (all over 50 tonnes in weight), I had Cat salespeople admitting they'd "dropped the ball" on how they treated me. If you buy machines that are all made in one country, then you've put all your eggs in the one basket. You only have to see the disruption in transport and shipping caused by the pandemic, it's made a lot of manufacturers have a rethink about simply rushing to the foreign countries for low manufacturing costs.
Well I guess I am in the small minority. Keeping our little fleet all Cat yellow has done well for us for support from not only the dealer but from Cat corp. Last time I saw a commie sales rep was 2015. Actually it was the sales manager that stopped by the job and we had a nice chat. I gave him my card and said I would like to open an account, just email the paperwork. Didn't receive anything.. We have a cash account at the commie dealer for aftermarket items. It's just as easy to put it on the Amex and gain the points than fool with a formal charge account. Still haven't talked to a salesman, I guess they don't need the business.
I’ve seen several companies have good luck with this. Have a bad experience corporate or the dealer bends over backwards to make it right. If they know you’re always ready to jump ship? Not so much.
They have to know you will jump ship otherwise they won't make it right
Not in my experience.
I have to agree with Oz dozers statement. Here in the UK you’d be surprised how badly Finnings and other big dealers treat their customers. It seems to be a case of ‘if you think we’re bad,go try elsewhere’.They don’t actually say that,but it’s there. However,we fell into unofficial recession Oct 22 in my opinion and some of the big boys are sharpening their pencils quite dramatically. As for Chinese stuff,it’s there wether we like it or not.
The gravel pit I know will change suppliers if they start getting poor service. They have a mix of mostly Cat machines but there's a few Volvo loaders in the mix including a big 350 they bought a couple years ago. The purchase of the Volvo 350 was in part because of some issues with Finning. Generally Finning treats them pretty good though. The Volvo dealer needs to give good service too or they'll buy a different brand next time. They tend to turn over machines on a regular basis but some they keep longer. They farm about 2000 acres as well and try to change over when the warranty runs out. It must be nice to have that kind of money.
If the Volvo 350 performs anything like the smaller Volvo loaders, then Cat should be getting worried. Around here, the Volvo loaders have increased in sales enormously, and the last two to three years, I've been inspecting used loaders for clients wanting good used machines - and I recommended the purchase of several good used Volvos to them - not only because of their condition, but the fact that they show all the signs of being built better than many Cat loaders, and they had a good track record as regards minimal repairs that had carried out. They all took my advice and bought them, and every one of them is performing well, with a great of satisfaction from my clients.
The gravel pit had some Volvo loaders in the past including a 180. They said the 180 was faster than the Cat, would run circles around it in the pit! Then the service from the Volvo dealer slackened a bit and they bought a bigger Cat. I think the same thing kind of happened with Finning so they went back to Volvo. They might have liked the Volvo better or got better pricing but I'm not sure. They aren't hard up for money. They said it's good to not rely on just one brand and having another brand in the mix keeps the dealers on their toes. The dealer(s) can't assume you're going to buy their machine just because you did in the past. If a dealer looks after them they'll be rewarded. If the dealer takes too long for a service call or parts, don't expect to be rewarded.
Wow! This thread has gone awol. You say you are looking for used construction equipment. WHAT TYPE OF CONSTRUCTION WILL YOU BE DOING AND WHERE? I doubt you will find any used heavy equipment with a China brand name on it. In Europe you will find good used equipment such as Takeuchi. Take a look in the area around where you will be working and see what everyone else is using. Also as said by others figure out if you're Company is going to handle your repair work, or have a dealer do it. Many construction companies just rent or lease equipment per jobs, go to auctions, or just start off with older smaller equipment and work there way up to bigger equipment. Good luck!
The OP has never responded since starting the thread in 2019!
OP's loss. Look at all the great info he's missed out on..