Hello, I recently inherited a 580D Case backhoe from my father. The machine has been sitting for awhile but it ran before it was sat. It had new looking filters on it but I replaced both fuel filters and the air filter anyways. Checked the oil and it looked clean on the dipstick, filter looks newer. It needed a new ignition switch which i bought and replaced. I also bought a new battery and the fuel filters. The machine starts run for a few seconds, sounds good then dies, and it will do that as many times as you turn the key. I had NO idea what could be keeping it from running and i'm looking for some more knowledgeable guidance. Instead of me just guessing and dumping money. I have tried to spray diesel into the air intake after starting, I saw that was a way to fix airlock. Anyone have any suggestions?
Depending on the fuel and how long it’s been sitting, you could have a “**** load” of algae in the tank.. Syphon out a few gallons from the bottom of the fuel tank and see what it looks like..
Did you clean or replace this filter / #14 ?
REMOVE #46 & start the engine.. betcha 1.00 it stays running..
What does that mean I need to fix? Sorry i'm totally inexperienced at any of this. xD
Should I removed all filters/tank/lines and do a full fuel system purge? If so, is there a "best way" to do that?
Just pull 46 & see if it'll stay running 1st.. Inside that return connector is SUPPOSED TO BE a check ball & spring.. if it gets clogged, the engine will run for a few then shut down.. & keep doing it until the clog is cleared.. IF u have an air compressor, remove the line & loosen the cap on the fuel tank & "back blow" the return line, back to the fuel tank to clean any obstruction in the line.. Clean out the return fitting & reinstall.. IF it keeps happening/shutting off, u have inj. pump troubles.. Google> "flex ring".. & save your pennies & get back to me..
BTW> the inj. pump has a name plate on it.. get the #'s off the 1st line & post them.
BTW that is a 1982 silver anniversary machine, not a bad looking unit from the one pic.
I was giving you something simple to eliminate as a problem.. I knew thepumpguy would show up eventually, he’s likely the #1 guru when it comes to fuel systems/problems on this site, so I’d advise you to listen to EVERYTHING he has to say, and do things in that order.. I’ll stay tuned....
I did not. I will this weekend for sure. Thank you!
Thank you, it was my Grandfather's. He took amazing care of it. My father got it after he passed and it got neglected a little. Now I inherited it from him.
Haha, ok. Thank you! =)
So I'm out here at my tractor, and you were right. I took off 46 and cleaned it out and it runs. For about a minute now. I ended up taking off #46 about 5 times now and keep cleaning it out everytime and the same thing happens... is there another way to get this gunk out that's more effeicent? Also my pump is different I don't see a #14
It could be that the governor ring is bad and flaking off so you may need to rebuild, pumpguysc and give you more info on that.
Did you drain any fuel out yet ?? Reason I suggested you do that is, years ago my JD410 was doing exactly the same thing as your machine, drove us nuts troubleshooting.. Someone suggested the fuel could be the culprit..... I siphoned about 5 gallons from the tank.. It looked like someone shaved Cher’s head, and stuffed all that hair in my fuel tank.. Cleaned out tank, and new fuel, it’s been running great eversince..
I did remove the old diesel just because I didn't know how old it was. I put new diesel in but I did not clean the tank. I didn't know I would have to. Also the stuff I keep cleaning out looks like rusty red sand
Is the fresh fuel coming from a storage tank. If so that may be the source of the crap. Is that stuff hard or soft ? A heavy dose of fuel conditioner may help. It should be added every time you add fuel to the tank.
U could leave off the connector & run the engine & hope whatever is in there washes out.. {doubtful} REREAD post # 7.
MikeM22: I'll try to explain what Pumpguysc is trying to tell you. He is in the business of rebuilding Injection pumps so he's being neutral. I have nothing to gain from your problem. Which I had too, with my machine. The material you're finding clogging the check valve is either coming from the pump internals or in the fuel supply. Your fuel filters should prevent anything in the fuel supply from the pump besides clean fuel. So... the likely source is the pump internals. Your pump is failing. A part called the flex ring made of some type of fiber, is disintegrating and pieces of it are clogging the valve.
What hosspuller said happened to my 580d also. Reman pump and all was well.
I thought the flex ring was made of coffee grounds? the rusty red sand sounds to me like fuel varnish. If it was mine and it's run five minutes already, I'd remove 46, replace with a rubber hose or plastic fitting so it doesn't leak so bad, put a drain pan under it, clean the inside of the fuel lines from the filter to the injection pump, and run it on some biodiesel for a couple hours or until it dies. Thepumpguy knows the chances on this, and he would never risk the callback and bad reputation of doing something halfassed like this. Also, if your head and rotor locks up from running it, your core is no longer rebuildable. It's basically cheap parts and you're buying a new pump compared to the lower price of a rebuild.
That stuff down in there is what I keep getting... cleaning this out, cleaning tank, blowing out lines and putting in some clear-diesel fuel cleaner and marvel mystery oil... We'll see what happens!
Ok, so I cleaned the tank, cleaned the top part of the ignition pump that had a bunch of gunk in it, blew out all the lines. It still does the same thing... runs for 30 seconds then dies... I don't understand how diesel engines work, but why would my machine run fine with the return line disconnected, but not when its connected? I'm not longer getting gunk at the #46 check valve, but its still not working?
I’ll take a shot at this till the smarter guys show up.. The return line has a checkball and spring in it, if it gets clogged the pump will basically cavitate, and cannot pump fuel.. Thepumpguy pretty much explains that in post #7..
Ya, I understand that. I cleaned it all out and its no longer clogging up with gunk. I guess my problem is i'm really not sure how the flow of fuel goes thru the system. I'm thinking it goes Tank > Filters > Pump > Injectors > Return to pump > Overlow to tank ? This flow would make sense why it runs with the Return line disconnected, and why I'm confused as to why it doesn't when it is. But maybe I'm wrong from square one which is why I'm so confused? lol
Am I way off here?
Short & sweet version>> If u cant get fuel OUT.. u cant get fuel IN.. In that pic of the pump w/ the tc off, I can clearly see a WAD of broken flex ring.. OK.. LETS DO THIS.. {the pump has to come off anyway} Take the return connector off & put it in a vise.. & KNOCK the check ball & spring out of it.. MAKE SURE its clear.. Put it back in the pump & see if it'll start & run.. if it does.. u found the problem.. NOW comes the bad part.. All that crap is gonna go back to the fuel tank.. & eventually the rpms will start to fluctuate & rise.. it'll rise to the point that u cant shut it down.. & u have yourself a RUN AWAY ENGINE..
disregard my post #23, that doesn't look like fuel varnish anymore, it sure looks like coffee grounds to me. And the inside of the pump shows no varnish like it would. Time to get instructions to send your pump to thepumpguy. If your fitting IS CLEAN, then you might still have a fuel supply blockage somewhere, but you can deal with that later.
Looks to me, the red color is from the dyed fuel. Still sounds like "coffee grounds" … Delmer: As was explained to me... besides your point of seizing the rotor, the engine may run away without the flex ring. Mike: It's your machine and your call. Take a risk with the expensive engine/pump or go for the cheap & "halfassed ". My luck has never been good, choosing cheap, especially when combined with "halfassed "
Mike … It took me a long time studying the pump to understand why blocking the fuel return starves the pump. The key understanding is the pumping pistons. The pump piston is in the rotor that turns. The rotor does several things. It's a distributer and pump cylinder block. As it turns, a cam forces the pump piston to compress fuel. At the same time, a passage from the top of the pump piston matches with a hole in the pump body that leads to an injector. (that's why the injection lines are located around the body) The injector sees pressurized fuel and sprays it into the engine. The rotor turns and blocks the injector line. The piston in the rotor is now sucking more fuel...BUT if the pump body is pressurized from the blocked fuel return/check valve.... it can't move or take another load of fuel to pressurize. Then the engine dies from lack of fuel.
Not trying to scare u but w/ that amount of flex ring material inside your pump{pic}.. Your not far from a run-away condition.. The flex ring is, lets call it a polymer ring that connects 2 metal pieces together.. Once that ring has deteriorated, the 2 metal parts start banging into each other & eventually, they shear off the metal rivets that the flex ring rides on.. & VROOOOM... off she goes.. The symptoms are> the rpms will rise & fall rapidly.. then it gets to the point that they don't fall & u cant shut it down.. The pump removal isn't difficult, but you might need to make a wrench to get to the bottom nut, next to the engine.. The EASIEST thing to do is TIME IT BEFORE u pull it.. it makes for a MUCH MUCH EASIER re-install.. & no way to put it back on 180* out of time.. Let me know when u get to that point & I'll walk u thru it.. BTW> did knocking the return connector out keep it running??
Ok, I think I'm beginning to understand how diesels function. Thank you all for the descriptions and taking time to answer me and sorry for the constant questions and the annoying lack of knowledge lol
It's how one learns. Someone who wants to know can be taught.
Yeah, don't apologise.. U shoulda seen some of the Q&A's before I got here, to straighten these "yahoo's" out.. Lol Hell.. I got some of'm rebuilding their own pumps.!! Before that, they treated an injection pump like a space alien.. "DONT TOUCH IT.. WE GOTTA CALL SOMEBODY.." Lol.!!! NOW their try'm to put me outta a job..Lol We walked u thru diagnosis.. NOW comes the fun part, taking it off.. Don't start turning wrenches just yet.. U have to time the pump & engine FIRST.. Let us/me know when your ready to start.. BUT.. BEFORE u start, u HAVE TO HAVE the $$$ to get the pump done.. U don't want a machine sitting for weeks at a time w/o a pump on it.. IF u REALLY NEED te machine or have to drive it somewhere to work on it..{garage} Go ahead & knock that return connector clear.. & reinstall.. you'll be able to run the engine.. BUT BE FOREWARNED.. IF the rpms' start to rise or u have no control over them.. SHUT IT DOWN.. Stay intouch..
Thank you, and thank you for all your help! I ordered some parts and I'm waiting for them to show up before I go any further.
Lol.. probably a new return connector{15830} because "He got ALL of it out".. so it cant be the flex ring.. it MUST BE a defective return connector..Lol.. U KNOW u got it ALL OUT when the engine runs away.. He wouldn't be the first one to do THAT.. I get'm all the time w/ the explanation that, "that's a new return connector".." the old one kept clogging up".. All I can do is laugh & say, "I'll take care of it".. Just havin a little fun at your expense Mike.. don't take it seriously..
Mike … You've gotten some good advice from pumpguy. I hope you've made some contacts and have someone like him to direct your repairs. Pumpguysc … for sure the fun will be at mike's expense eventually. The question is how large will the expense be. Rebuild the pump or rebuild the engine. Sounds like Mike will learn how to time the engine & pump from scratch too.