Hey guys, I’ve been all over the place with this. I bought a mini ex (JD 30g) last fall and has been a great machine for my business. However, I have some jobs on the schedule where I will need a skid steer or CTL. I can rent but in my situation I’d rather invest in myself. Plus renting always ends up being a PITA for me. I have 20k to spend. I have the money to buy upfront but I’d rather get a 1-2 year loan to save the cash flow. It’ll be used along side the mini to load my 10 ton dump, grade and install lawns, excavate here and there but mostly load the excavated stuff from the mini. Install/expand gravel drives, brush hog a few times a year, etc. I’ve been looking at some older skids 1845, case xt series, cat wheeled versions but they’re beat and I hate to work in the thing often and have no heat or ac. I’ve found a couple bobcat s510 that have 1500hr and have hvac. I’m just concerned that it will be a waste of money compared to a CTL. I’ve never ran a wheeled skid. Always used the mini the most I could, used my Kubota bx and rented a CTL here and there. The CTLs around 25k-30k look beat and I’m starting to spend more than I’d like to. I cut lawns 2 days a week so that only leaves 3 days for the excavation and hardscapes. I have an employee who runs stuff too. I hate to waste money and make the wrong move. What do you guys think would be a good buy for me? Go for the wheeled unit to pair with the mini? Or should I just finance a little more and get a CTL? Let me know your thoughts, thank you!
Landscaping work- you want a tracked machine. Grading and installing a lawn, if its damp at all the wheeled skids are easy to make a mess with.
True, but we also got along just fine for decades with wheeled machines. There was a LOT of good work done and good money made over the past 40+ yrs with wheeled skid steers. Most will agree the CTL is better for dirt work, finish grading, etc, but if it's not in the budget it's not in the budget. $20K will buy a nice wheeled skid steer but won't buy any CTL worth having. Lets also not forget the technology difference there, skid steers in the late '90s to early 2000's were pretty well refined. CTL's of that age not so much, the technology was still pretty new and most models left a lot to be desired compared to what we have today. I'd say buy the nicest wheeled machine for $20K you can find and run it for a few years. It'll put money in your pocket and you can save up for a nicer late model CTL and sell the wheeled unit at that time.
I like this idea. I have a loan on the mini, it’s what got me started. I hate to have another loan of that size. It’s just not a good feeling. Are there any models in particular to stay away from? Seems like bobcat has newer machines around 1500 hours for around 20k. I’ve always ran joystick/pilot controls. Are the hand and foot controls going to take me a while?
If you get a wheeled machine with larger tires, you can come closer to a CTL performance in the dirt. I have two CTL's and a wheeled SSL. The wheeled machine is a large frame machine with 14X17.5 tires. It does excellent in the dirt. Its not a CTL but it comes closer than a wheeled machine with 12X16.5 tires. What large means depends on the machine you get. But the point is the same. I would never own just a SSL or just a CTL. Having both options allows me to put the right machine in the right place. That not being an option, you have to decide if the CTL advantages will pay off. That is something you really have to decide. I would not get a hand/foot machine. If you rent anything else, you will struggle if you cant find a hand/foot machine. Get a hand control machine, its easier on your body and easier to learn on and easier to rent a machine with like controls.
I'd look for machines in the 1995-2010 range, pre-emissions but still relatively modern with good performance. Case, Bobcat, Deere, and New Holland all made some good models in those years, depending on what you are looking for. As for controls, you will learn whatever you buy, 2 days at the controls and you'll have it down. I have backhoes here with 3 stick Case controls, 2 stick JD/SAE controls and excavators with the 2 stick Cat/ISO controls. Also have a Case 1845C skid steer with the older hand controls and a new CTL with the joy sticks. I can hop on any of them and operate easily and proficiently. That said, I actually prefer the older style skid steer controls where you have full control over each side drive, these new joy stick controls really dumb it down but you lose some functionality.
What model is the large frame you have. My dad has a 1835c at his work. Thing is a turd. Has 9800 hours. They had me move some dirt with it. I got use to the controls then hopped in a rental cat 279 didn’t even think twice it was like muscle memory being that I already knew joysticks. I wonder if hand and foot would be the same. I’m not too worried just yet about being hard on the body. Mowing 40 yard, retaining walls and paver patios are feel pretty tough lol.
Sounds good. The newer the more electronic bs too I guess. I started on joystick rentals then I ran a turd 1835c at my dads work. I picked up on the controls, hoped in a joystick rental and didn’t even need a second. I just immediately remembered the controls. I could hop back and fourth all day. I’m hoping if I go hand and foot it’ll be the same. One thing I do struggle is going back and fourth between my excavator and little bx backhoe. I won’t even touch the backhoe attachment unless it’s completely necessary.
Wheeled skid steers have been doing landscaping for decades. If it's wet or muddy you don't want to take any machine into it if it's for finish work. You will get a lot more bang for buck with a wheeled skid steer. They are also less maintenance than a tracked CTL and tires last longer than tracks. Also better if you do snow removal. CTL's are nice but pricey to get a decent one.
My current SSL is a CASE SV340.
Hard to know what your biggest priorities are and when you're using the machine, just how much material do you need to move? Are you often moving a few yards up to 15yds, or are you moving 35 yds to 70yds all the time. I'm for suggesting a used mini skidsteer such as a Toro Dingo or Ditch Which or used CTL. We have both. My old CTL Takeuchi TL130 (7,500 weight) will lift a pallet of pavers/wall blocks, dig, grade, and load the 5 yds dump truck well. It's too small to load my Kenworth. My big complaint is the tracks and weight of the machine can really destroy a residential property by crushing the water line, leaving ruts in the lawn, and breaking up a concrete/asphalt driveway. If I was looking again at CTL's, I would think about two companies I don't really like which is ASV and Bobcat. That's because they offer smooth tracks, and they are great for getting over lawns without as much damage, such as when you want to move a dozen pallets of hardscape materials to the back of the house with no damage. The Mini skidsteer is great to move material around with the least damage. Moving a few yards of sand and gravel, spreading topsoil, and getting in tight places. The problem is loading. But we have ramps if needed for that. We use the Toro on every job, and rarely use the Takeuchi.
Well I have a 279D that is joystick and a 279D that is hand/foot control. Had the hand/foot control first after running Bobcats for 20 years. It took a little while to learn the joystick machine and now I can jump back and forth. FWIW I like the joystick machine better.
This isn't true. Even with a joystick you have full control over both sides. I've got a bobcat with joysticks and I can move either side in any direction I want. It's just a different movement. Trying to control each side separately in order to make the machine do the one movement you want is a 2 step process. With a joystick it's 1 to 1. You move the joystick in the direction you want the machine to go. It's that simple. Also makes the more common movements like turning easier. Plus it leaves you a free hand to hold your beer. Also with the joystick it means the controls are almost identical to the controls in my mini-ex. Makes jumping between them effortless.
There is no point arguing about control patterns. Everyone is in their camp and that's usually where it stays. Except for me. I learned on backhoe controls so running excavators that's is what I preferred. I spent a Winter working overseas with an OEM and backhoe controls weren't an option on some of the prototype machines. By the time I came home I had converted to excavator style controls. Never thought that would happen. On SSL controls, I have been H pattern for almost thirty years. Having bought a Minotaur, H is not an option due to the dozer control mode. So I have been running ISO. It confirms to me what I always said, H offers more precision. Not to say you cant be good in ISO, only saying that H is more precise. ISO is convenient in that one hand controls the movement, I wont argue that, but it doesn't give the level of control that H does. My opinion of course. Having run both, I think its an educated one, even if you disagree.
If I'm drinking a beer the last thing I want to be on is a CTL. That's work. Don't let my work interfere with my cold beers and my cold beers interfere with my work.
I have to agree with KSSS on the H pattern vs ISO, sure the machine WILL do everything with the ISO joystick controls (in theory), but not exactly how or when I want it to. There have been some tricky situations I've gotten in with an ISO machine, (stuck, off-camber, whatever) where movement is critical. With the single joystick it's kind of a guessing game what's actually going to happen, not something I like to play around with. PeterG brings up another good point that often gets overlooked when discussing CTL's which is ground disturbance. They have a reputation for being easier on a lawn then a wheeled machine, they are not. If you are going in a straight line, with wide enough tracks (low ground pressure), they are pretty good. The second you turn though, holy mackerel will they wreck a yard. You have to make huge sweeping turns to avoid damaging grass or soft turf, much more so that with wheeled machines in my experience.
I've run an early joystick Cat and you had to move the joystick directly to each side to counter rotate but you didn't have independent control of each side. They both turned at the same speed and you really had think about what you were doing. With 2 levers you have fully independent control of speed and direction for each side. In sloppy and/or slippery conditions and ruts sometimes you have to drive each side at a different speed and/or direction. Unless joysticks have improved you don't have fully independent control of each side in tricky conditions. The Cat I drove was also very jerky in tight conditions and you had to lower the throttle to avoid hitting things. It's good it had a throttle pedal. It was definitely needed. Joysticks are less fatiguing for sure but my old hand and foot machine, I could pick up eggs at full throttle without breaking them.
WD you are exactly right. There was one motion you can’t do with the ISO machines that I couldn’t remember, counter rotate with each side at a different speed. Every ISO machine I’ve run (Kubota, Tak, Bobcat, Gehl, etc) when you move the stick directly to the left or right it counter rotates, in theory each side at the same speed. The problem is if the traction is different from one side to the other you don’t know what you are going to get. There are other cases where you want to counter rotate but with more of a bias to one way or the other, can’t do that. I think a lot of the younger guys that grew up on ISO/joystick controls are fine with all that and don’t know any different.
Very well said by both of you. You don't realize any of that unless you have spent a lot of time running both controls. Controlling the bias either direction is much easier and precise if that movement comes from two independent joysticks. Newer people seem to pickup ISO easier than H. Up until the Minotaur, I would let newer operators pick what control pattern they wanted to use. After using both, almost always they chose ISO. As a kid growing up on a farm in ND, everyone had a foot controlled BC. It didn't take me long to switch to hand controls from hand/foot. I always hated that method of control.
If you have a preference for one control style over the other, then by all means go with the one you like. But to say ISO can't do a certain movement is plain wrong. You can counter rotate either side at any speed. That is not opinion or preference.
It seems operators with more experience disagree with you. You can't have fully independent control of both speed and direction on each side without having 2 seperate controls for each side.
I'd like to add more confusion by mentioning my little steering wheel Hitachi loader with half yard bucket. Of note, it's rated by me behind my Toro Dingo and Takeuchi TL130 on which machine goes to the job site, but sometimes it's the best choice.
Experience often just means stuck in old ways. Yes, you can. 1 joystick, it moves in both the X and Y direction. That means it can control both sides separately. But at this point it doesn't matter. You alll seem to want an argument and beat someone down as a group instead of a discussion. Very sad really as I've been here long enough to know you guys are smarter than that. But ego wins seems to be the motto latley.
By experience I mean someone like KSSS who has owned and ran a multitude of different skid steers and CTL's over a lot of years. If anyone knew the different controls, it would be someone like him. It has nothing to do with trying to beat someone down, ego or trying to start an argument. It appears that you have trouble accepting that other operators don't agree with you. Most operators much prefer joystick controls and they are far less fatiguing but they do not have 100% fully independent control of each side. They might come close but not 100%. About the only time that 100% comes in handy is usually in sloppy conditions. General use in dry conditions you wouldn't need it. A lot less fatigue and only needing 1 hand for driving far outweighs having truely independent control. When I drove the Cat skid steer, I really had to concentrate on the joystick position to counter rotate and maneuver in tight quarters. I think the newer Cat machines have much better control with joystick.
Yes Phil you are an "instigator of Chaos". I gave my opinion on it, nothing more nothing less. Its the internet, you are free to disagree. I am not looking to argue about it. Many people are perfectly happy running ISO and that is perfectly fine.
Here is a 2001 Bobcat 763. BOBCAT 763 SKIDSTEER - heavy equipment - by owner - sale - craigslist 2001 BOBCAT 763, RUNS GOOD, ENGINE OIL AND ALL FILTERS CHANGED, GOOD TIRES, SOME PAINT NEW, PUT TO WORK NOW. 1HR. SOUTH OF HARRISON, AR. CALLS BEFORE 8:00 PM THANKS springfield.craigslist.org
Those 763's were great machines. If that machine checks out while in the seat it's worth every bit of $8K. Paid $9K for a hammer for our 305E mini..