Hi all, I’m new here but have been reading many of the helpful threads. I’m a carpenter who’s pretty mechanically minded, I have some experience running mini and midi sized excavators, backhoes, tractors, etc. I’m looking to purchase an excavator to clear a lot and do the site work on my own home construction project. I think I want something around 25-30k lbs and I have a budget around $35k. I’ve found two excavators that I’m considering (my project won’t start until spring so I’m in no rush to purchase anything). First is a 1997 Cat 311B with 5500 hrs. Looks really clean and with a mechanical thumb. According to the owner the bucket/boom/stick was bored, welded, and new pins/bushings installed by a professional about 500-600 hrs ago. The remainder of other pins/bushings were replaced as well. Machine is pretty tight. Additionally the chains/sprockets were replaced maybe 700 hrs ago. Pads were re-used. This machine is owned by an excavation contractor (second owner) who says he hadn’t put many hours on it since he has bigger machines. Panels all look pretty straight except for the rear which has a decent dent. This one is near the top of my budget and about 3.5 hours away. Second is a Hitachi EX100-3 with 12,000 hours. This one is at a local equipment broker and is priced at $22k. From pictures it looks like it’s going to need at least new chains and sprockets. There is a mount of the stock for a thumb but no thumb included. I don’t know the maintenance history on this one. All panels look straight and the paint looks good. I’m concerned about what I’ve read about the pcv and hydraulic controls on this one. I’m open to any and all advice, either about these machines specifically or my equipment purchase plans in general. Thanks in advance and happy New Year to you all!
If the cat really has 5500 hours on it. It looks pretty clean, and the thumb is already on it.
As much as I far prefer Hitachi over Cat I would say buy the Cat. The Hitachi -3 machines were a very good machine in their day but that was quite a while ago. Most off the ones I see have electrical issues, alot of bad wire harnesses and the harness is no longer available from Deere/Hitachi. Their electronics were also a bit of a problem, I think the biggest problem being that most guys didn't understand them. Any of the electronic components that are still available are also very expensive.
If you could get the serial # for the Cat someone can look up and see if it’s a Grey Market machine. Seems like it would be rare to only have 5500 hours on it but it is possible. I would stay away from the hitachi for many reasons posted above.
Thanks for the responses so far! I’ll see about getting the s/n on the Cat. Im looking for the right machine at the right price, does this size and age of machine seem to be reasonable? I’m open to suggestions and I’m not necessarily set on the two machines I listed if I need to wait for better options. Would increasing my budget to $40-45k purchase a significantly better machine (I know in the world of excavators this is small money!)?
So I’ve spoken with the owner of the Cat more and got some additional photos. I’ve asked for a photo of the VIN plate too. Is it typical to have the pins/bushings replaced/welded at 5-6k hours? I think I’m going to go look at it this week, I’ve never bought a used piece of equipment this size how is the inspection/purchase typically conducted? My plan was to try to have a tech from the regional Cat dealership meet me there for a pre-purchase inspection, is that common practice? If the dealership can’t have someone there on my schedule and it looks good when I check it out then I was planning to leave a deposit and try to have an inspection conducted later. Then arrange for transport and payment of the agreed on sales price?
Most good mechanics can give pretty good assessment on a cat machine..cat tech should be able to give great report...undercarriage wear...pump pressure...general condition....4 hrs should give you pretty good advice.....5500 hrs raises some alarms...but possible....as for pins and bushings....that depends on maintenance...but also red flag for me....good luck....but in that price range some flaws are expected.
5500 hours is not a lot to already replace pins and bushings, and a new undercarriage. And I can't imagine anyone replacing any of that stuff really early on a older machine. The undercarriage could be it was just traveling a ton and not necessarily anything bad. The pins and bushings could be abuse or just not greasing. But if everything is tight now best thing is just to have someone competent inspect machine before purchasing.
Here’s a pic of the ID plate, if anyone is able to confirm that it is not a gray market machine that would be great!
So if my online research is correct, the 8HR prefix shows this is a gray market unit from Japan. So, what now? What impact does this have for parts/value/resale on a almost 30 year old excavator?
We have 2 grey market cat excavators never have had trouble with any parts we needed had the one for 19 or 20 years and the other for 3 or 4 now that part would not scare me off
The major impact depends on how good a parts man you have at your local Cat dealer. If you have a real parts man who takes their job serious it shouldn't be a problem, it's when you get one that will do nothing when they hear "grey market".
If it's just a machine to use once in awhile and not dependent on to make money I think as long as price is right grey market would be ok, if you know going in parts could be a bit more hassle. If local cat dealer sucks could deal with another and just mail parts, or find the numbers yourself.
I wouldn't put much stock in the hour meter reading 5,500 hrs. Not very many hour meters last the life of the equipment. Its not like odometers in cars. It could be correct- but its a 1997 machine, so its 25 years old. If it only ran 500 hours a year in its first 10 years, you would have the 5,000 hours. Not very many companies buy new equipment to only run 500 hours a year. And its not anything strange that the hour meter is not "correct", I don't own much that the original hour meter is in and that's accurate. And the seller isn't doing anything "shady" with a low reading hour meter, he didn't buy the excavator new either, I look at a hour meter as just a way to know when it needs service. Not a indicator of lifetime use.
That machine is a Japan sourced unit which means it was built in Japan it's not "grey" And as for 5000 hours that only means that hour meter has 5000 hours on it. Bob
Thanks for all the feedback so far, my plan is to drive out to see it later this week. If all looks good I’ll probably pay to have the local Cat dealership do an inspection since I’m no pro. Keep the advice coming please!
I think you’re on the right track sticking with that plan, some money spent to have someone that knows the machine to come out and inspect it will pay off way more now than when you are trying to fix something that failed right after you bought it because you didn’t know it wasn’t right to begin with.
Does a B have a computer? If so wouldn't the Cat tec be able to get actual hours of it? We had a 320B and a C. one of them had a computer replaced, but can't remember which one
The local dealer (one of the Milton Cat facilities) agreed that it was a gray market unit. They didn’t seem too concerned about that, though, and said they would be able to source most, but not all, parts.
I looked in my Toughquip info guide for Cat Equipment. All 311B's were made in Japan. All seem to have similar specs. The 8HR says it has a narrow cab. I don't know the reason for that. FWD
FWD. Little Japanese people. The big cabs are for larger North American people.
Thanks, I never heard of anything like that. I learned something else today!
Thank you! Everything I’ve heard and read so far indicates that mechanical parts shouldn’t be an issue but any of the cab or sheet metal parts would be tricky or unavailable. Sound about right?
Good thing I’m still on the thinner side…don’t need to give the wife more ammo for me to watch my weight though!
You are dealing with a top notch Cat dealer, I have a gray market 311, never had an issue with parts, it means the parts guy has to look at a book for that machine, not the computer. 312B is a very popular machine, and that is the going price right now. 312B Has a computer to control the pump and engine RPM, and stores fault codes that can be pulled, and hours stored in the computer. Cat Excavators can have issues with the Boom cracking down by the cab, and at the weld for the dipper/Boom pin ears.
So, to confuse the situation further a 2001 Deere 120 came up for sale 30 minutes from me. Hydraulic thumb, aux hydraulics and 8800 hours. Comes with a 36” bucket, 48” hydraulic tilt bucket and quick coupler. It’s priced at $38,000. Not to get into a brand war but which would be the better excavator? Im assuming the Deere has a pattern changer or could be switched over since I don’t do Deere controls…
Both are good machines, dealer support and which one is in better shape is most important. Hydraulic thumb is a million times better then mechanical though. Tilt bucket could be really handy or if you don't need it they fetch a ton of $ in resale. Quick coupler is also way better then pin on bucket. If 120 is in good shape that seems like a steal.
I'd get after that 120, especially if the UC is good. 38 would be a good price especially right now.
The sprockets look like they are due to be replaced, but with the hours and price, there is no getting around some of those things. Just because it's a Deere doesn't mean it will have the backhoe style (SAE pattern, known as Deere controls). If it doesn't have a pattern changer and is in the Deere pattern, the hoses can be rearranged to give you ISO controls. I like the looks of the Deere better as well.
I think I’m going to rearrange my schedule to look at the Deere in the morning, I was planning to drive out to see the Cat on Thursday.
I always hate telling people what I think about used stuff, especially stuff like UC off pics but the 120 doesn't look too bad, especially if you're just using it as a home machine. Those deeres had changers too.
I’m going to see the Deere today, seller is the former owners son (owner passed away). Sounds like it was a backup machine at a smaller excavation contractor/sand pit. They primarily run a 200 class machine. Hopefully it checks out ok.
Try both machines and compare. Make sure the pins and bushings are hopefully tight. Try to confirm hours against service records. If possible take a second person with you to help evaluate ie. lifting machine to see turntable bearing play. Talk to the owner, mechanic, anyone that may have had anything to do with machine. I would prefer purchasing from a owner operator than from aa sales guy, auction.
Any new Deere I've ever seen is SAE pattern unless ordered otherwise. There is one on iron planet in PA for less money, but only one bucket, and in rougher shape, so the one you are looking at seems on par. Is the 01 120 a Hitachi made machine still?
Yes, still a Hitachi. I had a EX120-1 (1990) real good machine, had the iso pattern. Bought a 2012 ZX160-5 1600 hrs last year. It has the pattern changer that we use often as I prefer iso and the other occasional operator needs sae. I ran a 120 Deere like that, it did have a pattern changer but was different type than the 160, but did not need it as it was set up for iso. Deere seemed to be about the same except the Deere engine. FWD
All Deere/Hitachi machines come set up as Cat controls from the factory. Also as said before, very easy to change, just swap a couple of pilot hoses.
So I looked at the Deere today, it ran well, operated smoothly and tracked straight. The hydraulic thumb is nice and operates off one of the joystick buttons. The undercarriage seemed decent, sprockets have more life than the pictures show but they will need to be changed soon. (Is it possible or advisable to change the sprockets and re-use the rails?) The tilting ditch bucket was in excellent condition. I didn’t see any major hydraulic leaks. The quick coupler is a manual pin grabber style (amulet) which is nice. For the bad, the digging bucket would need to be rebuilt. It had a 4” tear along one of the back seams and a hole in the floor from the thumb. Apparently the quick coupler was added after the thumb so now the thumb is too short to contact the bucket until you get about halfway through the curl. If you’re not careful you can hit the end of the thumb with the floor of the bucket. Question on the hours- it has 8800 or so hours on the meter. I noted that the foot pedals were practically worn through the metal on the tops. Clearly different operators use the controls differently but is this type of wear consistent with the reported hours? Ultimately I’m going to go look at the Cat 311 tomorrow before I make a decision about either of them. Below is the ID plate from the Deere.
The pedals worn through is not really a surprise if it came out of a gravel pit. What kind of work was the machine doing? What condition were the pins and bushings? Did they have the service records?
It’s been a general purpose excavator for them, mostly loading trucks in the sand pit but occasionally they do excavation jobs too. Their pit is mostly sand, they don’t do a lot of crusher operations. They serviced it themselves, no really great records (some filters had hours on them, some didn’t). Pins and bushings seemed a little loose, but not too bad. Lots of built up grease on the joints so it looks like they kept up with the greasing.
It's not to difficult to add onto the thumb tines to make it meet the bucket correctly. A couple of things about the hydraulic quik change, it puts the bucket another foot out from the stick so you do loose a bit of digging power and also it puts it a foot closer to the cab when the boom is up and stick is in. Be careful because it will destroy the front of the cab. Like James said, those pedals wear out fairly quickly, looks like a pretty decent machine.
There is a 312B with 5000hrs on it. Why are we looking at a Deere 120 with 8000hrs? When you call Nortrax ( United Now ) and ask for the torque spec for some random part and they tell you to **** up a rope you will wish you bought a Cat, Milton Cat has a tech line just for those questions.
That age of Cat with those parts replaced the chance it actually has 5000 hours on it is next to zero. The Deere also has a bunch of other benefits. Not saying the Cat is bad, but if prices are similar and shape is too, Deere is way better buy.
So, today’s update (for the tl;dr crowd, I put a deposit on the Cat). Whenever I buy something used I’m always interested in seeing how the owner maintains other things as normally I’ve found that to be a good indicator. Hopefully that’s true today, the seller had numerous other pieces of heavy equipment and all of them were neat, clean and carefully parked. It’s clear he takes his equipment and business seriously. The tracks on the excavator I was looking at were cleaned out and the cab was clean. All in all I liked what I saw and it ran and operated very well. Very tight all around. Owner had maintenance records and has kept after the machine over the years. Two issues caught my eye- first is that the bucket cylinder was slightly leaking hydraulic oil, not a big deal as I have a very good hydraulic repair shop nearby. Second was that one of the track chains had a few stiff links (granted it was cold when I was checking it but they still looked stiff after I drove the machine around a little). The seller said the chains/sprockets were replaced 500 hrs ago or so but the machine has mostly sat since then. I’ve read that some people say that stiff links in an otherwise good chain will free up with use and others that say a stiff link must be replaced (I assume you could replace the pin and bushing in the link and not the whole chain?) Any advice about this would be appreciated. I have a full inspection by Cat scheduled for tomorrow, although I won’t have the results of the oil analysis until next week I’ll update this thread with the inspection results. (Oh, it’s definitely a gray market machine as the radio is weird and the heat/ac controls are in degrees Celsius lol). Thanks all!
Pay me now or pay me later. A few Trinkets doesn't put the Deere ahead of the Cat in my book. If I was buying forestry equipment sure buy a Deere, ( I would buy a Timberjack ) Semantics I guess.
Sounds good so far. Not sure what you guys pay to reseal bucket cylinders down there but I'm guessing it might cost around a thousand dollars to do it right. I had a stiff link on a JD230 excavator that never worked it's self loose.....and it was fairly new. If you plan on walking on the pavement you might have to bring someone in with a track press and replace the stiff ones. It won't be cheap to do it. Did the owner change any of the oils before putting up for sale? If so there is no sense taking SOS oil samples. I would otherwise go by the maintenance records.
Oil hasn’t been changed by the owner so I should be good for the oil samples. I’m having the tech drain and replace the oil if the machine looks good (he’s going to call me at the end of the inspection) as they are changing the filters anyway. Only $60 more for the full oil change and then I’ll know it’s good for me to start with.
$60 for an oil change on a 311 is cheap!
The filter is included in the inspection price, but yes, seemed like it was worthwhile.
Just got off the phone with the Cat tech, no major issues noted during the inspection. He identified that the bucket cylinder is leaking and also one of the boom cylinders has a slight leak. Also, the two speed selector wasn’t working and it seemed to be stuck in high range. He said that this is most often a solenoid issue and not overly hard to fix although it could be more complicated if it’s a wiring problem. Everything else checked out so I think I’m going to go ahead with the purchase.
That sounds really good if that's the worst issues, leaking cylinders are nothing for a 20+ year old machine, if they aren't fairly bad I wouldn't even bother touching them. Seems like a good buy.
Budget around $2K to repack the 2 cylinders hiring it out, it shouldn't cost that much but that will give you something to work a value from. FWIW I would re-pack both cylinders before you put it to work - if oil is leaking out then dirt can get in the hydro system which is not particularly a good thing.. I would look into the "stuck in high range" issue as well. Tracking around in high gear all the time will put excess wear on the UC and can stress on the hydros.
I would get the two speed fixed for sure. If was stuck in low, maybe not, but not stuck in high.
I clarified after I posted, it’s stuck in low range, not high. I’m not overly concerned about that, I’ll address the leaking cylinders first. I’d like to take a moment to thank everyone who contributed to this thread and gave me advice! Don’t worry, I’m not going anywhere and I’ll keep the updates coming until the machine is safely delivered to my lot.