I have an older Deere 410 (no letter) hoe and I think my water pump is worn out. When I bought it 3 years ago there was just a slight bit of play. Last weekend when I checked it the fan and pulley was much looser. The tip of the fan blade will move I would say 1/2" back and forth in a cocking motion while pushing with my hand. What I don't understand is why it isn't leaking??? I haven't added a drop of coolant in 3 years. I'm also hearing what would sound like the fan blade slightly hitting something metalic every once in a while but I don't see any scrape marks. Maybe the impeller inside hitting something? I'm in the middle of a trenching project and I'm wondering if there is any danger of something coming loose and destroying the radiator. Is it safe to let it go until it starts leaking? Can I order parts 6, 7, and 8 or does Deere make you buy the whole pump? Is #2 in the second pic a press fit onto shaft #8? I wonder if shaft #8 and #2 could be loose and my whole fan and pully could fall off right into the radiator? Thanks for any help.
i own a 310a which i,m sure is the same pump.i have taken apart a lot of pumps in the past,but mostly pumps on chevrolet racing engines.they are all built about the same,your play is going to be in the bearing,which appears to be number 8 in the diagram.best thing to do is just replace the unit with a rebuilt pump,they are very hard to service without a press,and besides that sometime disassembling them and pressing the pieces back together,you can lose some of your press fit.better replace it before you destroy a radiator,and it gets very expensive.
Rebuilding the pump you have may be your cheapest option. Hopefully there is a shop close to you that can do it. There is a shop near me that rebuilds them. Surprisingly it is a an alternator and starter rebuilding shop. I didn't know he rebuilt water pumps until I asked him. Make a phone call to a couple of them near where you are at. Although they may not do water pumps it is quite likely they may know someone that will do it. Usually they rebuild them for 1/2 the cost of a new one.
I know that our John Deere ag dealer will press the bearing on for a 4630 tractor's water pump which is similar. I'd check with yours. Heck, give 'em the part numbers and they might order them for you. I've had mine to order some parts on a backhoe before.
Thanks for the responses. I have a press so I need to see if the individual parts are available and check pricing for both ways. I was hoping to get some insight about the possibilities of the pump falling apart and causing other damage or is it still safe to use. I'm sick of this trench and I don't want to waste a weekend working on the machine at the moment. The hoe is also in a very bad spot and it would be difficult to get it back to where it needs to be after working on the pump. Yeah I know.....quit ya whining.:crying
Order the impeller too I've rebuilt a lot of WPs & the impeller is likely to split when you try to take it off. Cast iron that's been on the bearing for 10 or 20 years isn't going to come loose easily. Heat it until it's red and they try it but still bet on needing another one. As to your question of how long will it last, no way of knowing. The day it dies you'll know how long it lasted . Will it break? Unlikely, but it will start to leak and get noisy first probably. Unlikely you'll notice the noise though, best check it for play every few hours. If it changes it's time to worry. How many hours left on your trench? Joe H
Thanks for the heads up on the impeller. About 500' on the trench until I get out of the rough to a good stop point. Say ~12 actual machine hours. There is a creek and swampy wet area that I want to get completed before the water table rises so I'm in a bit of a time crunch just working weekends. I just can't believe it's not leaking already because it's soooo loose. And that got me to thinking that something else was happening besides a worn bearing that could lead to a destructive failure if the fan and pulley were to fall off.
The timing worked out pretty good. Water pump started leaking right after I finished all of the heavy work. I still have some cleanup to do but I ran the machine as little as possible and kept the coolant level full. The entire pump was not available so I ordered everything that moved or sealed including the impeller for about $70 total. I’m going to use Deere’s Cool Gard to refill the coolant. Whatever was in there before was very clean but may have been standard automotive coolant. What kinda bothers me is the occasional loud metallic noise which sounds just like the fan blades hitting the metal radiator shroud but there is plenty of clearance and no scrape marks. I hope I’m not breaking off chunks from the impeller and they are floating around in my coolant system.
They will ONLY order parts that cross over from construction to AG, Ask me how I know, lol... The Deere AG ,and Construction dealers have a non compete agreement. Unless its a part used in both industries.
I just replaced one on a JD 450 dozer, It was $270 complete in a reman box. (not from deere), I also did one 3 years ago on a 310-d, that was $450 from deere. One of the problems I found on both units when removing from engine was the "pitting" on the backing plate where the impeller moves the coolant. In both machines the coolant looked good, but the Ph and alkalinity was off the charts causing the engine to basicly rot from the inside out. The liners on both units were bad also. So if you remove the old one and find this type of damage, you are better off replacing the whole unit, and it will be faster to get back into service. Also I would flush the entire engine out with water, then drain, and replace it with the 50/50 cool gard from deere. It lasts longer, and is designed for their engines and has a low silicate. Best of luck on your project.
Thanks for the information eg. After flushing with water is there a way to make sure that all of the water is drained from the block so I'm not diluting the new coolant? Do you think I can remove the pump while leaving the fan attached? The bolts holding the fan on are pretty close to the radiator. The hydraulic pump is also driven from the crank in front and I'm not sure how much slack I can get on the fanbelt with the fan still attached. Do you recommend any stuff on the gasket? I'm going with the Cool Gard premixed.
I have always used, Aviation Permatex on any waterpump gasket I have had to put on. Never had a pump I reassembled leak around the gasket with that stuff.
It just seemed like the obvious thing to do. I put some wood on top so kitty wouldn't get scratched. There was just enough room to get between the machines without walking all the way around. I think the radiator and oil cooler was supposed to come out. I disconnected the top radiator support rod and was able to tilt the radiator foward enough to get the fan bolts and shroud out as the bottom of the radiator is mounted on rubber and springs.
I had forgotten what it looked like under the hood. I owned a 410 just like that for seven years except it had an enclosed cab. Is that the fuel tank up front of the air filter? I forgot where it was but I remember standing on the front tire to fill the tank. That old machine still looks extremely good for a 30+ year old machine.
I remember you mentioning that you owned a 410 in some of your other posts. A friend who transported the machine and I got into a bit of a heated discussion about the fuel fill when he saw me pouring 5 gallons of diesel into the “radiator”. I have almost hurt myself a few times when my feet have slipped off of the tire when it’s wet. I used to balance a 5 gallon jug on the front half of the tire while jumping on top of the small remaining part. Now I rest the jug on the loader cross arm so I don’t have to share part of the tire. After I get on top of the tire I place the jug on the hood and siphon the fuel with a hose, making sure I spray a little diesel around to make a statement to the man.:naughty These new anti-spill containers are a total joke as they seem to take 5 minutes to empty out. The basic machine does feel solid and runs good except for every stinking pin and bushing. When the hoe starts swaying back and forth going down the road I could swear I’m in a tiny little boat out on the ocean riding the swells. Do you remember if your hoe bucket seemed slow? All other motions are plenty fast but I have to wait forever for the dang bucket to curl or empty.
OldandWorn, Yes I remember the rear bucket curling slow. I also remember running a newer backhoe for the first time (but I don't remember which one) and when I curled the bucket in for the first time it went BANG. It was 3 times faster than mine. I also remember that the old Deere has pins and bushings instead of ball type tie rod steering links and they get slack so the steering gets loose pretty early so roading is not so good. My friends 214 JCB was like that and had the same problem. Hope this helps a little.
I went back and looked at the thread that I started about this problem and saw that you had posted there with this same info. Sorry for the CRS.
Equip guy…..the back plate and impeller looks good with no cavitation marks. Gotta love the John Deere Company. Included with the new seal are 4 pages of instructions on how to rebuild the water pump. The blue thing is a special tool for installing the seal that was also included. There are no good flat places on the casting to support the force of pressing from the impeller side so I decided to cut the shaft off with the fan hub still attached so I can support it on the bearing tower. Turns out it’s hardened since it is part of the bearing. Plan B is to torch it off but I have to wait for daylight so the neighbors don’t call the fire department. One of the fan blades had a major collision with something in the past and may be why the engine vibrates at certain RPM’s. The radiator also has solder repairs in a circular pattern. I was going to try and straighten the blade but given the thickness of the metal and after seeing the fairly reasonable price of $125 for a new fan I decided it wasn’t worth the time so I will order a new one. The loud metallic noise that I heard occasionally was most likely a blade slightly hitting the front edge of the alternator pulley.
Yep, that's a sorry looking fan. It'll definitely cause a vibration.
The other blades also have some dings but not near as bad as this one. I don't understand why blades on heavy equipment take such a beating? It seems like anything old has messed up blades.
I try not to be such a packrat, ya ears burning packy? but sometimes hitting that ace in the hole makes you glad to have saved something. What I dislike even more is the time it takes to machine or make some special jig to do a one time job. I gave up looking through my tube kinda things because nothing was close and finally came across this big hunk in the last miscellaneous box-O-crap. About 20 years ago I parted out a Bridgeport mill and I think….I think….this is the back gear selector. Absolutely no reason to save it but there it was. What’s crazy about this lucky find is the hole size. The water pump bearing outer diameter is exactly 1.500 and the hole going through this chunk is 1.502, almost too tight but luckily a slip fit by a red hair. Judging from the huge bang and tremors when the bearing broke loose I surely would have had a 2 piece water pump casting if I had supported it any other way. I was wrong BTW, further searching found the complete pump available from Deere for only $700. $950 if you have money to burn and would like new oil cooler tubes as part of the kit. The chunk is so heavy that it easily supported the pump once the bearing entered into it. Along with the new fan I also ordered these pre-bent hoses for the oil cooler as one end is very inaccessible once the pump is back on the machine. The 4 hoses cost me almost as much as the pump rebuild parts. The hose clamps are factory Deere but I don’t like using them on small hoses. I’m going to search around for a different style clamp that closes with more even pressure. Anyone have any favorite clamps for small hoses?
There are no shoulders or stops on any of these parts so it’s important to take measurements before pressing anything apart, mainly for pulley and belt alignment. I believe this pump has been rebuilt before as the bearing was pressed in so far that it was covering the leak hole. This probably caused premature bearing failure but it also allowed me to use the machine much longer until the front seal finally opened up and started leaking coolant. The outer race of the old bearing makes a convenient special tool to press the new bearing assembly into the casting. Just pry the rubber seals out and remove the ball retainers. The balls will fall out and you can remove the shaft. In my junk box I found a thick steel spacer with a hole to support the casting on the bearing tower underneath. It’s hard to tell in the pic but the bottom machined surface of the housing is not being used for support. The internal part of the seal is a press fit on the pump shaft and so is the outer ring of the seal that goes into the casting. The special tool presses both in at the same time but it also sets the spring preload of the inner rotating seal part. Pump supported by the shaft for the seal install because the fit is tighter on the shaft than the outer part that goes into the casting. Impeller also installed with the shaft supported. Lay the gasket in first so you don’t have to retract the press again like I had to.
Use a straight edge on top of the gasket to get the right clearance between the impeller and back plate. The directions call for .015 to .035 clearance and I shot for .020. One or 2 of the vanes on my new impeller were slightly different in height so move the straight edge around and check all of them. This probably isn’t necessary but I ran a large flat file over the rear plate to check for high spots which there were at the bolt holes. The final part is the fan hub which is a tight fit. I used a small socket underneath to support the shaft only so you don’t damage the bearing races, crack the pump housing, or change the impeller clearance. Since my bearing assembly was .120 too far into the casting the previous rebuilder corrected this by leaving the fan hub .120 high so the belt still ran true with the other pulleys. With the bearing assembly pressed the correct distance into the casting the bearing shaft ended up being flush with the top of the fan hub. Here is my old impeller which the vanes are supposed to be flat all the way across. Even though it didn’t split I’m glad that joe--h suggested that I order a new one. Since the bearing got so loose and the belt tension was pulling the shaft sideways it wore the vanes away at an angle against the rear plate. Since Nige succeeded in grossing all of us out today with his cut finger I’m going to call him and raise the ante. Don’t do stupid things around hot coolant.
Nice write up, nasty burn. FYI, I always run a file and check for high spots also. I personally think it's cheap insurance. Amazing how worn that impeller was. Wow!
Hey thanks.....I ended up using a very light smearing of good ole brown #2 cause I had it around. The old gaskets had no sealant and they almost fell off by themselves. That was a big plus.