Hello everyone, Well last fall we took delivery of a brand new 140m for our sister shop, the other day after getting finished her third pm the operator was on his way to one of his roads on his route to be graded and he noticed a red engine alarm and a low oil pressure warning on the display he than immediately pulled over and shut down and called for our mobile mech, our mech arrived and did his inspection only to find the oil filter plugged with metal from inside the engine, NOT A GOOD SIGN!!! Low and behold we have seen this before at our own shop with our 140m, there were not any codes indicating any problems prior to the engine alarm, the pm was down correctly by our mech this is a major engine failure at 1500 hrs ours had a major engine failure at 900hrs both engines are c7's also I believe this machine had a injector problem about a month ago, Cat is going good for it as far as I know but now there's the down time which is costly, the amount of money that we pay for this product it should by all means be more reliable Cat has alway's been known as a quality product I run a 140h has over 10000 hrs on engine never touched still runs stronger than our new 140m with half the hours anyway is anybody else running the new m's having similar problems I figured Cat would have the bugs out of the m series by now, your thoughts on this issue are welcomed thanks everyone
Hi 20/80 you guys seem to be having terrible luck with the M series I work for a township who has an M I had the first series when I started and i run there series 2 140M for cople yrs now we just got a new 140M3 and we have had hardly any trouble with little injector trouble on the M2 but nothing like what your having happen hopefully you guys will start having better luck with them there a good machine.
To my knowledge the C7 and C9 have been a disaster for CAT. Never mind the usual piddling issues, they seem to randomly grenade at low hours like the cases you mention here. If you do a bit of googling, the motor home and road truck industries are full of examples, and some groups have tried to get a class action going. I would suppose mother CAT is suppressing valiantly, I don't know. One Morooka dealer I sell to told me that out of thirty some machines, mix of C7 and C9, they were trending toward a one third failure rate before they made 2,500 hours, mostly issues leading to an in frame and reman head, of course baskets of injectors and high pressure fuel pumps... They're hoping to turf them all out before the warranty expires, and hold on until Morooka gets switched over to Cummins for Tier4F. Sad.
Yes we had our share of troubles but in the end we got things sorted out, our older 140m seems to be holding it own... knock on wood
Yes Mother Cat is suppressing... major CSI happening on both sides, its $34000 for a short block here in Canada, and another $20,000 to get it installed at Cat, see what happens.
Unreal...
Hello eveveryone Just alittle update, after the major csi on the engine Cat is saying oil starvation meaning they are saying there was not any oil in the engine when the operator left the shop, the operator said the oil was in the safe working marks on the dipstick when he checked during his pretrip that morning, the department had to come good for the repairs Cat was not covering it, when the machine came back the operator also had problems with shims falling out of the circle during the grading season low and behold the circle was bent out of round from factory, just got the circle back from Quebec this is where Cat sent it to be trued, and its still out of round not as bad though Cat covered this repair but the down time is hard to deal with, your thoughts on these issues anyone?
Iv'e seen outfits overhere with Cat equipment but run Deere graders or the 140H. I guess that says alot about the M's.
Our older 140m has seemed to have the bugs worked out and is working not to bad, knock on wood, I really like the Deere grader pro with joystick and steering wheel looks like a way better setup than the Cat m series with joysticks only especially when you have to travel any distance with wing and plow you can't take yours eye's of the road not for one second this can be stressful after a 12-13 hour shift. thanks
The counties around here have been dumping the Deere for the Cats. Most have told me the location of the Deere joysticks causes their back and shoulders to cramp up after a couple hours. The bigger the operator the less they like the Deere. I like the older Deere graders with the standard controls, they are nice smooth running machines. Then again I also like the M2 Cats so far.
I also like the older style, 140h is a really nice machine to operate and would take it over a m series anyday but of course i'm old school. thanks
I would think there would be red lights flashing, and probably even a engine auto shutdown if oil pressure was not registering. Or have we gone backwards in time?
The operator said after about a mile a red light came on and low oil pressure on the screen, no alarm or buzzers or auto shut down at first he thought another injector was going in her, he pulled over and shut down.
No evidence of where the oil went? The short block that was dropped in, was it a reman or new? My complaint with the C7 is they are parent bore. So any reman might have a repair sleeve or two on gouged cylinders and then the rest is honed (and a bit over). I don't think there's any oversize for them (wasn't for 3116's and 3126's). It is nice in that you don't have block decks drop, but you can't return cylinders to new condition the way the other ones are.
As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Cat makes that is any good any more is a tractor. The last good loader was the F. I think that in order to stay competitive, that quality has gone out the window
I would say the block is a reman, what I think happened was the pm was done on the grader late Friday afternoon by our mobile mech he was called away on a emergency call out before finishing the pm but failed to tag out the machine before leaving, that same week the operater for that machine was on vacation he came in the following Monday pulled the dipstick in the machine when finishing up his pre trip and seen the old oil leftover that was drained on the safe operating marks on the stick and thought every thing was fine he didn't wipe and recheck, he did not see any tag out card on the machine and thought every thing was good to go, low and behold we lost a engine, both the operator and the mobile mech aren't saying much, this is why following pre trip procedures to the letter for your machine is so important. any opinions on this issued are welcomed thanks
I can see that happening, but I think its a stretch to believe there would still be oil on the dipstick after a weekend of hanging in no oil. I would still do a through check on all the gauges and idiot lights. The oil light should have been on from the start. Guess one can not fault Cat for not eating it if it was run without oil. Its unfortunate, bad things happen to good people to. We all hate belt and suspender procedures but they would have saved a ton of money here if followed properly.
Well said, of course this is just a theory of mine on this issue, I know the oil left on the dipstick is a long shot but that would only be the reason why the operator would consider starting the machine unless he didn't check anything thinking the pm was just done correctly, this operator is a good operator and takes pride in his work, I guess this could be used as a model of what can happen if pre trips aren't followed properly. thanks for your input
One of my former bosses always drilled it into us whenever it was considered to approach any manufacturer/dealer for support on something that had **** itself. "If you have a $100,000 claim you need a $100,000 story to back it up, not some notes scratched on the back of a cigarette packet. Your story has to be complete with proof and all the bells & whistles to confirm that you did everything you were supposed to at the appropriate time and that you'd done everything you possibly could to monitor & protect the health of whatever component was involved." I never had too much issue getting 6-figure out-of-warranty claims settled amicably with manufacturers but the Failure Report that accompanied the claim usually resembled a novel the size of "War & Peace" by the time it was finished (back to the $100,000 story again) .........
Hi Nige, I have to agree, mother Cat did their own CSI on this machine and engine and came to their own conclusion...Not going to be covered by warranty... no matter what kind of a story you come up with Cat has the tech behind them now to tell you exactly what has happened to your engine regardless the story. thanks
A drop hanging on the end sure, but definitely not inside the marks. Tough situation there.
I would guess it played out something like this. Machine did not have oil in it Monday morning, operator may/may not have pulled the dipstick before starting the engine. After starting and lights flashing/warning buzzer not shutting off due to lack of oil, operator shuts off engine and proceeds to investigate. After discovering the engine had no oil, and proceeding to **** in his pants, he fills engine with oil. Crosses fingers, starts engine, lights go out, and he breathes a sigh of relief. At this point, the damage was done. Backs out of shop, loads up lunch box, heads out. We know what happens next. I don't believe that the engine would run more than a minute or two with no oil, even if it had been running synthetic and Lucas. JMO.
Operator said he was about a half a mile (1km) before any light came on, also showed low oil pressure on the screen, he shut down, when the mobile mech showed up and they restarted the engine to here what was going on it sounded a lot like a couple of injectors was going, they shut down then pulled the stick, nothing on the marks, they then added oil restarted and major noise shut back down, what ever was laying in the pan was now pushed through to the oil filter and plugged it solid.... panic set in....mother Cat was called.
Mate, it's surprising just how long an engine will run without oil. Many moons ago I was operating an excavator when the sump got smashed. It couldn't be repaired were it was so I had to climb it out from were it was and park it in a better location. It took about 15 minutes at idle. After the repair that machine went on to many thousands of trouble free hours on 30 grade mineral oil.
Tractors aren't even as good as they once were, and the really good ones were done away with after the Challenger name was sold to AGCO.
Interesting comment. Maybe the idle situation helped? All I have for a testimonial is some 20 odd years ago, my dad was driving our 1978 IH with a DT466 home, and the oil plug fell out. Judging from where the slick started to where he coasted to a stop on the shoulder, the engine ran for maybe a minute before locking up tight. I'm not disputing your story, actually kind of wish that truck engine would have fared as well as your excavator. That was a $10,000 bill back in 1993 that we really didn't need at the time.
Sorry, when I say tractor around here it means a bull dozer. But I do agree about AGCO.
I've seen maybe one or two engines run completely out of oil and there are usually tell signs. First sign is the farthest main bearing or rod bearing from the oil pump is usually what locks up. Second item is the piston coolers quick squirting on the bottom of the farthest piston and it seizes in the cylinder. You can't hide new oil in a locked up engine so that is a pretty obvious sign that the bill will go to the customer with our sincerest sympathies. The real issue though for the customer is where did that oil go to. I know you are supposed to check oil before each shift but an engine properly maintained is not supposed to use a lot of oil between oil changes. The amount of oil leak will used to show up on the ground or may in the stack. Today if it is going up the stack you are seeing regen happening way too often. So if it isn't on the ground and not up the stack, who is really responsible for the bill? Even if it transferred into the transmission or hydraulic system that would usually fit into a drive train warranty. I would say the root cause of the problem has not been identified yet and there is more negotiating due on the repair costs. Does the machine have product link?
Didn't you say the filter was full of metal? Wouldn't it take some oil to get the metal there?
We had one where the piston oiler got plugged and the blowby got real bad in a hurry. Something I have seen was the o-ring not copacetic on the oil filter, and when the engine ran, a waterfall of oil pumped out (on the backside of the filter to boot) without getting a drop on the engine or filter, but of course the evidence was all over the ground.
They added oil and started it up and shut it back down when the noises got real bad. Post 23.
Thanks- guess I missed that one.
Here is the thing that bothers me about it all, we payed very close to 400 grand for this machine with all this computer technology and software built into these machines when you turn on the key and it under goes its detection cycle before you start the machine with all this so advanced tech the computer should of never let the machine start NEVER!, lights and buzzers should have been going off, back in the day we had a sentinel device that detected low oil pressure and cut the fuel so the engine would not start, my god even atv's have a shut of in them when low oil is detected to save the engine, when you pay for a advanced machine you should not be settling for less, Cat should have had this fail safe shut off built into the software to protect the engine, if nothing else put a sentinel on the engine, if this technology is built into the software then it failed and Cat is not coming good on its commitment, this is why a sentinel device was invented because of human error and Cat technology should also have it built in because humans run their equipment they build and sell, your opinions on this issue are welcomed thanks
The manufactures don't put shutdowns on engines to protect humans. Sentinels have the possibility of shutting down an engine with a human in a precarious place. The decision to shut down an engine for whatever reason is always in the operator's hands. There are indicators and alarms in machines to alert operators of the current status. One would assume the human running the machine has the proper training and the physical ability to operate the machine safely. Turn your argument around the other way and assume the operator is running down the road at forty miles an hour and the engine suddenly shuts down from a loss of oil pressure. Now you have twenty to thirty tons of dead steel careening through what ever traffic or pedestrians that have the misfortune to be in the way. Now the manufacturer is responsible for that unfortunate accident.
I see you point but my argument is on start up if there is not sufficient oil pressure the alarms go off and engine shuts down to protect the engine from damage before moving the machine,(engine monitoring system) this is the safe guard Cat should have in place, manufactures have many safe guards in place in their machines to protect humans (seatbelts, back up beepers, signal lights, brake lights, buzzers and alarms, ergonomics, back up electric brake, just to name a few) but nothing in place to protect the heart of the machine the engine. thanks for opinion.
You are free to add a Murphy system at your own expense. I've looked a plenty of machines that have them. Don't expect to ever see a manufacturer do it though. Also keep in mind that the functions you have listed were mandated by government.
I agree, in you last post you mentioned machine shutting down running down the road, Cat has a back up electric brake in the m series for that very scenario, you have 10 seconds to pullover and stop before that safe guard electric brake burns up, $5000 to replace after using it, if this back up failed and did not come on and you ran over somebody Cat would be liable, especially if there was no code prior indicating it was not functioning properly. thanks
The Volvo 940B I ran had an oil level indicator on the screen at startup. The way it was calibrated though, it showed it was ready to add while the oil was half way on the dipstick. Not a big deal, I ended up topping up more frequent. That machine was satellite tracked, so I didn't want to give somebody an out if there were any issues. This new stuff doesn't even have a oil pressure gauge. My pickup is the worst- there's a gauge in the cluster but it's just showing an algorithm programmed into the ECM.
I'm not sure if it was Ford or maybe more than one manufacture that when you ordered a vehicle with "full set of gauges" the oil pressure "sender" was actually the same switch as used with the "idiot light" system. So if you had any oil pressure it read about 1/2 way up the gauge. It made no difference if it was one psi above the point the "idiot light" would come on for or if you had a jammed up relief valve that was going to rupture the oil filter any second, it always read right in the center! As for the shut down systems back in say the 1970-80's we did install some of them on our quarry equipment. The one's we used had all kinds of different options available to control how they functioned. As I recall for any mobile equipment we set them up to ring a bell when there was a problem, low oil pressure, over heating and so on. On stationary equipment like a water pump, genset or drill rig those went to the shut down mode with an over ride option as needed.
Liabilities are never cut and dried and almost always determined in a court of law. In the scenario presented the burden of proof unfortunately is on the owner and operator of the machine. The manufacturer will guarantee the systems worked when the machine left the factory and will further cover any warranty charges to fix those systems if found defective in workmanship or materials within the prescribed time period or hours of operation. The warranty papers specifically exclude all incidental damages to the machine, other property or bodily harm due to unsafe operation or improper maintenance. Running a machine when the alarm systems don't work is deemed unsafe operation and again the burden of proof is on the owner / operator of the machine to prove they didn't know the systems were inoperative and that there was no way for that fact to be known before the incident. The only argument that has a chance of working comes down to inherent defect which means something that can't be seen inside the machine will cause it to fail without warning. Inherent defect is almost always a design issue which can be the kiss of death for future machine sales. So if you lost oil pressure and the alarm never sounded I would suggest you apply a pressure test to the sender and read the gauge with some independent third party observing the results. Now you have some leverage in your claim against the manufacturer.
I don't have first hand experience with these graders, but most C-7, C-9 engines in trucks will go to de-rate mode in the case of low oil pressure, low coolant level, or hi coolant temps. Shouldn't this be the case here too? I think the operator isn't giving the full story and the ET tattletale already has.
Thanks for the info
I don't know if the engine went into de-rate mode or not, and yes it could be very possible the operator or the mobile mech are not giving the full story that's the $54000 question. thanks
I heard Ford was doing it. Dodge is too. All 2000 and newer Cummins equipped trucks have a similar setup, except they programmed the "gauge" to move so it appears realistic. Says in the manual it's setup to "reflect customers expectations". It's ran off a 6 psi Hobbs switch. I'm glad they don't shut down. Imagine if you're around a train track when it decides to shut down? Either because of low oil pressure or a faulty sender. The alarm should be obvious though. I'm not so sure they are with some machines.
The 2008 and up dodge i haved hooked to my OBD reader seem to give accurate oil pressure. My buddy that works for FCA says the same thing about the oil pressure gauge, it won't move unless an idiot light is triggered also. They also put Wide-Open-Throttle at about 75% throttle position b/c marketing found it made people "feel" the car had more power.
I don't have any experience with a Cat engine failure, but I know second-hand about a failure, simular to the OP's, of a Cummins engine. The ECM of the Cummins engine recorded a few hundred warnings and faults, before the engine seized. Multiple low-oil-pressure warnings. The Cat "CSI" maybe had only needed to look at the ECM memory to know what went wrong with the grader engine... About shut-off's; I have some machines with Murphy switches that kill the engine instantly, and some that buzz for ten seconds before shunting-off the engine. In my limited experience, having the engine shutdown, on its' own, *is* dangerous, when the machine is driving on the road.
The shut off that I was thinking of was on start up, if the oil level is below the sensor it will not start, having a engine shut down or shut off on a operator can be beyond the operators control in some circumstances, (oil plug fall out, fuel line break or simply stall your machine on a railway track by accident while watching a speeding train coming towards you while your waiting for the gauges and steering on a m series to cycle so you can move, lol, with a murphy shut down there is also" murphy law" thanks
That's why there will be a procedure in any operator manual describing how to drive through the park brake. A lot of machines it's shift into gear with the park brake on, the transmission will not go into gear and the warning will come to release the park brake. Shift back to neutral then shift into gear a 2nd time and it will go in allowing the operator to drive through it. The park brake's toast afterwards but it could be the difference between the operator dying & living. Manufacturer's generally do not want to take control away from the operator regarding stopping the engine outside his control. All the bells & whistles will sound but it's the operator who has to stop the machine, set the park brake, and turn off the engine.
Hi Nige, that is a good info to know in a emergency for the M series, and yes I agree with you, just of topic abit, something else I learned about the M series, a sales agent for Cat when our department purchased this machine 140m when we went for a demo ride he told us to go full throttle ahead 1-2-3 gear then click it in reverse without letting up on the throttle, low and behold the machine shifted very smoothly into reverse, the agent said Cat has this technology built right in the tranny of the M series to allow this, this also can be done at any throttle position as long as you don't let off the throttle, I did not know this, your thoughts?
Yair . . . 20/80. I have been told about this technology and how the "come to a full stop before changing direction" method of operation has well and truly gone . . . apparently it's standard on dozers? I am curious as to what happens if you do let off the throttle and, after you make the shift, how you gauge precisely where the machine will stop before the change of direction. I have also heard some local talk about an operator who suffered facial damage when he changed onto a machine without the feature. Cheers.
It would seem proper operating techniques are lost on a lot of today's operators. Designing a machine to compensate for reckless drivers does not create operators, but instead steering wheel holders and lever-pullers.
I know that if you do let off the throttle without coming to a full stop (creeping ahead abit) it will be abit jumpy if your not careful, keeping your foot on the throttle and shift, very smooth transition, the machine kinda creeps ahead 3-4ft while making the gear change smoothly to reverse, its that 3-4ft delay that you have to judge when shifting this way. thanks
I don't think Cats intentions were to make bad operators with this option, just another tool built into the machine to improve your ability to get things done and save time, I know first hand when doing snow removal cleaning a big intersection this option is great and does save a bit of time. thanks
You're referring to shuttle shifting. Our Operator Instructor's eyes went the size of overcoat buttons the first time that topic came out, followed by a "You ***king what...?" T'is all clearly spelled out in the operator manual (which I assume you have read from cover to cover..?) thusly ........... Shuttle Shifting Shuttle Shifting ............ allows the operator to change the machine direction quickly and with minimal disruption to the ground surface being graded. The M-Series transmission precisely controls the engagement of the direction clutch for a very smooth transition from one direction to the other. Control Throttle Shifting (CTS) is also utilized during the shuttle shift to optimize the shift. The following shifts are allowed: (The table does not copy too well unfortunately) 1F - 1R 1R - 1F Entire engine speed range 2F - 2R 2R - 2F Entire engine speed range 3F - 3R 3R - 3F Entire engine speed range 4F - 3R 4R - 3F 3 directional shifts was a PITA and so shuttle-shifting was limited to the first 3 gears. There is also some interesting information regarding setting off from a dead stand in the manual, the procedure for which differs from what most operators are used to. Regarding the parking brake, I suggest that you read the Safety section of the Operator Manual entitled "Park Brake Override" .............
Thanks for the info Nige, as far as reading the m series manual from cover to cover... . My main machine is the 140h which I run spring, summer, fall, I run the 140m in the wintertime but prefer the steering wheel of a H series, learned old school hard to convert, thanks
We traded most of our Cat equipment for John Deere over the last 10 years or so. The Deere equipment runs well, but the service is lacking compared to Cat. The Deere dealer is easy to deal with and they warranty things that Cat would never cover. My operators love the 140H, but will have a bounty placed on me if I even think of buying an M series grader.:notworthy
We have a newer Deere in one of our sister shops with pretty good luck with, I would really like to try the grader pro series from Deere with the joystick and steering wheel option also a very nice looking machine, I am very happy with the 140h I run and would take it over a m series any day. thanks
I've ran two different JD GP graders. Neither extensively. Approximately 60 hours. I've ran two different CAT M graders. Approximately 70 hours. For long days, I like the JD GP model better than the standard rack model. Less shoulder/neck fatigue. I like the CAT joysticks better than the JD GP setup. Although the learning curve is steeper. I like the visibility on the JD machine better than the CAT M. I'm not a fan of the CAT M cab at all. Whoever designed that cab has never spent long days in a grader. For example, there's no place to put a cooler, so you wedge it between the seat and the side window. The cup holder is very poorly located. The cell phone holder is just slightly bigger than a credit card. Sun will cook you. Poor visibility straight forward. Poor mirror visibility with little to no visibility rearward, better have a camera. Disclaimer, I maintain gravel roads.
I like operating the m series but the steering is where I have a problem, we may have to run 35-40 miles with all the plow gear on and the stick steering is so sensitive that you can't relax or take your eyes of the road not for one second or you could have a major collision with on coming traffic, it is 9 turns on the steering on the H series from pin to pin, its a split second on the joy stick in the M series from pin to pin and that is a major issue, these m series machines were meant to be floated to a job site not driven, you spend a 12-13 hour shift on the stick of a M series running from one road to another and you are completely wiped at the end of the day, the H series I find i'm much better at the end of the day, that is why I find the Deere grader pro so appealing you get the best of both worlds, Cat might want to look at that design, I have 60 gravel roads to maintain. thanks
Okay. Those ones don't downshift themselves to gears they can shuttle in then? In the Volvo I ran, you could shuttle in any gear, but if you were higher then say 5th (It's been a year- I don't remember for sure) it downshift down (sometimes a couple times if you were in a higher gear) and then shuttle.
Not unless you go into the transmission ECM and program the system to do so IIRC.
Yep, that was my opinion as well. Same with the visibility. Meant to be operating at a slow speed and staring at the blade. Randy Krieg is the only operator I know of that can run for hours at high speed (15mph or higher) with the joystick without complaining.
That's dumb, with all that technology the steering should become less sensitive the faster the machine goes.... mine do that, lol.
There's just something about the Deere grader pro, the more I look t it and all its options the more I like it, I would wood love to try one for a week, Cat has the contract with our department to supply us with graders and parts for the length of the bid(4yrs) we are two years into the contract see what happens after that. thanks
You're absolutely correct Don, and that brings me to a thought. There have been a large number of developments in software on the M Series because the software is so complex it's literally been upgraded on the fly. It's super-important to have the latest and greatest installed to make life easier for the operator. To 20/80 - have you any way of finding out what Part Number of software flash files the machine currently has installed in the Implement, Power Train, & Messenger ECM's..? It's highly likely that there could be some newer software designed to fix the bugs you're commenting about .... just saying.
Nige I am really thunderstuck to say that yellow iron needs the same 3 month "firmware upgrade cycle" as the itsy bitsy teeny weeny computers in a datacentre
You and me both dude. However the fact of the matter is that in the 21st Century the customer is doing the development of the machines and as such anything that crops up usually gets corrected in the form of a software upgrade. When they first came out in 2008-ish the upgrades were pretty much every 3 months, now they're out to about once a year. An upgrade ought to be free. The M Series are so electronic they'll make your head spin.
The software release date and version number for each ECM is available from the display, it is under system information
As far as I know there was a software update done on the machine a couple of years back for the steering but nothing after that as far as I know. thanks
The last M (12M3) that I ran the steering was speed sensitive. After a few minutes I could steer it pretty well. But, as mentioned earlier, on a 2 lane paved road, running WOT in high gear, meeting oncoming traffic, you better concentrate.
I agree, it is even worst running down the road with your plow gear on, I find if you just articulate a little so the nose of your plow is toward the ditch abit when running this seems to help, keeping it in 7th also seems to help some in the twisty roads but be careful on hills running in 7th if the tach needle just touches the yellow on the tach these m series machine's will kick out off gear and you are free rolling down the hill which is very on safe, if you hit a patch of ice on the back side of the hill when the machine is into free rolling mode then its good night Irene for you, when you slow up the machine goes back into gear and you are now into a skid, this is another on safe design of the m series, the H series would never kick out of gear, a red light would come on if you were up in the Red in the tach to let you know to slow up. thanks
Wow, I didn't know that and never experienced it. That would suck and be very dangerous!!!!! Thanks for the warning!!!!
I know our 140m does it they might have changed that in the newer m series but I don't think so, we have a lot of steep hills here in this part of the country and you will experience this from time to time on the hills if you are not careful, just when you think the engine is going to help with holding you back on a steep hill the needle hits the yellow in the tach and you are now free wheeling sure is a wake up call when this happens to a operator, don't know if anybody else had this happen to them yet, must be some sort of a safety mode to keep from over rev on the engine, but when your tach needle just comes into the yellow you are far from over rev, this is a big concern for any operator doing snow and ice control with a m series grader. thanks
The latest upgrade was only 2 weeks ago. If the last one on your machine was done a couple of years ago then there are at least 2, probably 3, upgrades that would likely need doing on it. If the local Cat dealer has a contract for these machines then shouldn't someone be asking them to come out and do the upgrades every once in a while..? Edit: I just had a quick trawling session and found 4 upgrades listed since July 2015, so if it's 2 years since your machine was last upgraded it is well overdue IMHO. I also get the impression that an upgrade could well solve the issue of the transmission shifting to neutral during an engine overspeed event. (AFAIK then the normal way of avoiding and overspeed is to make an upshift, i.e. shifting from 7th to 8th in your case) 20/80 - does your 140M have the optional Jake Brake fitted..?
Hi Nige, we have 4 m series graders in this area alone I don't believe any upgrades have been done to any of them mine being the oldest, is Cat responsible for making sure these upgrades get done where they hold the tender right now or at least let us know there is a upgrade available? using the brake and engine sweetspot to slow you down on icy steep hills without going into a skid even with chains on is what I try to accomplish but sometimes you creep up on rpm trying to prevent a skid and this is where the machine will jump out of gear and you lose the breaking resistance of the engine, keeping upshifted you have no engine resistance, this is alright on a small hill. no I don't have a Jake, I didn't know they were available that would be really nice to have. thanks
If I was working in the dealership that looks after these machines I would be telling the customers that upgrades were available, but I'm not and my suspicion is that they won't do anything until they are asked to. Be aware that the upgrades are not mandatory, simply improvements in machine systems control that can majorly benefit both the operator and/or machine reliability. It's a really surprising position for the dealer to take TBH because if they have a contract to look after the machines you would think that they'd be trying to show how customer-focused they were by doing stuff like this without waiting for the customer to ask. To upgrade 4 machines would most likely take about 4 hours in total, compared to what they are coining looking after the fleet it's nothing IMHO, and excellent PR for them..... What escaped many people, including the factory, is that when the engines using the the graders changed from 3304/3306/3406 to the C-series a lot of inherent engine braking went with it. The rotating mass of the new engines is nothing like what the old ones had and so you can't depend on simply taking your foot off the throttle like you could on an H seires machine. It's actually interesting to compare the operator manuals for the H & M Series. For roading an H Series the manual tells you to select the same gear to descend a given gradient as the machine is capable of climbing the same gradient, for an M Series the manual tells you to select ONE GEAR LOWER than whatever gear the machine will climb the same gradient. We saw this initially when the 16H II (with the 3196 engine) first came out. Our customers started burning brakes up like it was going out of fashion where it was never a problem with the former model equipped with a 3406. It took us a while to twig what was going on; we approached Cat about a Jake Brake installation, only to be told that no engine software was available to support the installation of a brake. So we did it anyway using the brake installation from an on-highway engine and by installing a microswitch under the throttle pedal and a latching relay, so that if the throttle pedal was touched when the brake was operating it immediately dropped out. When the 16M first came on the market a Jake Brake was optional, it took about a year for it to become part of the standard machine, and every early machine sold without one qualified for an upgrade to retrofit one. What we do to stop our operators gassing the machines too much is to limit the transmission to 6 forward speeds only - our brakes live forever .......
Well guy's we lost another engine, one of our 12m2, it had a c7 in her with 2200hrs, $45,000 for the engine, don't no the full story yet but what i'm hearing so far is the warranty is up, Cat was sending messages saying that upgrades had to be done but never followed through, now I don't know if these upgrades had anything to do with the engine failure, but we did have trouble with this machine right from the start, in one of our sister shops we are having troubles with a new 140m also.
That seems like terrible misfortune. Blowby? “Injector codes” coming up?
I don't know the full story yet but the machine shortly after we first got it start going threw injectors, Cat just replaced them as they went, our very first m series did this also, it ended up being the h pump, they had to clean the head and fuel lines also with the pump replacement, we lost that engine at 600hrs, Cat came good for that one, as a buyer you will never here about engine failures from Cat, C7 engines seem to be very prone to this, I can't imagine being a private owner and owning a m series.
Back in the early 80's I worked at the Cat dealer and had the opportunity to see many things. Cat equipment was just about rock solid, stupid simple, tough and made to last. We started to hear about electronics on the way and ask why? Well I left to begin my next life but kept tabs on what was happening with friends. Although the electronics can do some neat functions in my opinion much of it is not needed. I would think if a manufacturer would get back to the basics they could really hit a home run.
My limited experience with these newer machines is those injector codes are more of a “misfire” code then an injector issue.
I agree, the electronics do have some neat features but can be way more troublesome, yes codes can point you in the right direction but try finding a broken wire that is completely messing up your ECM on and off which can affect everything, mechanical was a lot more reliable I think, the fuel was either on or off.
I find on those C7's engines the H pump causes a lot of troubles with the injectors misfiring, on our first M series we went through a basket of injectors before Cat changed the H pump and cleaned the head, that seemed to cure the misfiring, on our 12m2 with the C7 this was happening shortly after we got her around 6-700 hours, CAT just kept replacing the bad injectors, worth noting, the injectors on our first M straight out of the factory, the injectors were not Cat they were aftermarket.
Well from what I was told Cat was requesting to adjust the valves in our 12m2 with the C7, some how this request went on the wayside and because of that the engine failure happened, somehow the rockers got misaligned and bent the pushrods, just the other day we had Cat adjust the valves in our new 140m{C7} then shortly after putting it back to work the engine would take to shaking violently to the point that the operator shut it down, we are now waiting for Cat to return, more down time, I 'm not sure what to think about all of this this, I have over 12000 hours on my engine and has never been touched.
I wonder if it threw a bridge? Just a push rod on one cylinder? Or several? Isn’t the 12m2 a C9? We had a 3176 where after a valve set, it got smoking and running rough. When the mechanic went back into it, he had to go looking for a push rod. I was wondering if it was 360* out when he set it the first time.
That's more than I can tell you, its in mother Cats hands now, its a C7 for sure, I run a 140H with the 3176, valves never been touched, has been a very good machine so far, just over 12000 hrs on my girl, would take her over a new M series any day.
Simple fact is that if anything goes t1ts-up in the top end the first thing that Uncle Cat is going to ask is for confirmation that the valve adjustment checks have been carried out at the recommended intervals. Doesn't mean to say that any adjustments have to be changed, simply checked that they are within limits at the specified intervals. Without that info, you're flying solo....... The last good grader engine Cat made was the 3406 IMHO. When the 16H went to the 3196 it all went downhill in a hurry.
3406 had it’s reputation for a reason. I was surprised when the new emissions came out in 2002, that Cat didn’t go to a version of the 3406e like was in the D8R.
In the 16H for no other reason than the mahoosive amount of engine braking it provided. The switch to the 3196 started the trend of burning brakes up simply because it didn't have the engine braking the 3406 had.
What gets me is that the C7 engines have been very troublesome yet Cat continues to use them and put more lipstick on a pig, I just can't imagine a private contractor using a M series with a C7 engine, not sure on the C9's, even the cost and downtime of having Cat servicing at the proper intervals would be a nightmare for a private contractor that's working a job with the grader, the money you pay and Cats sales pitch at the time of purchase for a new and improved Cat M series you are led to believe that you should not have 1 thing go wrong for at least 5 years with normal maintenance done by the operator, A Cat salesman told me one time that Cats motto is just sell the machine fix it in the field, just get it sold, very sad, can you imagine a private contractor buying a used M series that has no warranty left and depending on it? they would go bankrupt trying to keep it running.
i could be wrong but I was under the impression that all the 12M2 ran the C9.3 engine and the 12M early engines were C6.6 and the later 12M was the C7 .is it possible that the wrong valve set procedure was used between the C6.6 and the C7 engine as the valve setting procedure for the C6.6 is completely different from standard Mark
Assuming it is a Heui and not the C6.6 common rail engine. the first thing to look for when you have these sort of issues is to check the filter in the fuel return line check valve at the back of the head. if this has any metallic debris tech services asked us to remove the cover on the Heui pump and check solenoid for metal build up. if any metal was found the Heui pump needed to be replaced with the injectors and the system flushed out with a special procedure. Just a note of caution for the C6.6 engine. if you undo the high pressure fuel lines going to the injectors Cat will void any warranty unless you replace the fuel lines with new. The fuel lines are intended to be single use only. repeated loosing and tighting of the fuel lines causes the fuel lines to fracture and allow metal to enter the high pressure fuel system causing damage. when following the fuel system testing procedures special fuel line torqueing procedures are used to allow reuse of fuel lines Mark
I remember looking at the identifying tag when it first came and it said C7, i'm pretty sure its a 12m2 but I could be mistaken it might be a 12m, I will check.
Thank you Mark, I will pass this info on, have you run across this type of engine failure before with the rockers becoming misaligned causing engine failure, failing to adjust valves even if the engine seemed to be working fine at the time.
yes. but only because people that don't understand the different valve setting procedure between the C6.6 and the C7 The 12M changed engines and that caught people out including dealer mechanics. At the time we were retraining our guys on correct valve set procedures because of this issue Get a copy of the product status report of the ECM and check that no over speed has occurred .On some early machines the transmission shift strategy allowed the engine to over speed if the operator was not careful. there were some software upgrades to over come this issue Mark
There was also some trouble with the seating of the valve bridges and they were changed to bridges with a different shape and deeper recess
Thank you Mark, this is great info.
If I can add something ......... There is an even newer Part Number than the 339-3397 Link mentioned in Mark's post above. The latest current P/N for the Link is 346-4709.
Between Nige and Mark250 you guy's are unbelievable with your fella's knowledge, you guy's are a huge asset to this forum, thank you
Hi, in one of our sister shops are new 140m is in for warranty work it has a bent circle, I have not seen this happen before not on a new one anyway, CAT is covering it, some sort of manufacturing defect, $32,000 if CAT did not warranty it, down time will be a month, we are getting in to the fall grading now.
could you post photos please Mark
Hi Mark, the machine is at Cat now, I never thought of it I should of took some photo's before it left, but earlier this spring if memory serves me right Cat took the machine and tried to straighten the circle but It did not work out, I believe it was down a mouth for that to, I guess Cat tried to fix it first before replacing it all together, sorry about no photo's.
no problem thanks Mark
Just a update on the bent circle, Cat also found that from the goose neck swivel brace back towards the circle that beam the circle is attached to is also bent, so I don't know what conclusion Cat will come to on warranty with the additional beam being bent, some further investigating I assume will happen now before Cat warranty's the beam also, and so they should.
I stand corrected, it is a C9.3 and a 12M2 not 12m, we just got her back, new engine and turbo.
I had a 2012 140M2 that had a new circle put on by my dealer was all warranty work I also had lots of injector trouble with that machine we traded that in and now have a 2016 140M3 haven’t had much trouble with it other then a few DEF fluid sensor problems.
We have had our fair share of problems with the m series, not sure what causes the circle to bend out of phase, they do take a lot of abuse, never had that trouble with the H series, $64000 to replace the circle and forward beam to the ball on the goose neck not counting the down time, hoping warranty will cover both parts, hopefully your new 140m3 works out for you and not cause you to much grief, please keep us informed though of any troubles if you don't mind.
Hello all, I thought I would update you on another problem with one of our newer 140m's in our sister shop, we no longer got the machine back from Cat for replacing the bent circle and long circle pivot brace and the rear tandem bearings went on the left side and completely locked the machine up road side, I was looking at the machine today in the mechanical branch, over 12 grand for the repair and not covered under warranty, first time this has happened to one of our M series.
Hello all, well we are having some issues with our 140m in our shop, yesterday it seem to lose abit of power and then stall, sat for awhile and then it started, continued on ice blading did not act up the rest of the day, hmm, today before leaving in the morning our mobile mech changed the fuel filters as a precaution, there was a very very small little trace of water in the separator but we new it was doing its job, nothing to concerning machine purring like a kitten, got out in the back country machine without a hitch working good then it took to missing engine shake then stalled, started right back up then worked well for abit then just died would not start, mobile mech came checked computer not showing any codes, re changed fuel filters than after awhile she started, nothing showing in the fuel filters that we took of in regards to water, headed back in to the shop started loosing power again and this time lots of smoke, got back to the shop and machine would not idle happily and was missing then stalled, mech checked for any restriction in any of the fuel lines seemed fine, no codes, mech was thinking maybe the lift pump, kinda scratching his head in wonder??? anyone have any idea's? thanks
Could be lift pump. Is it cold? There any chance you got a batch of summer diesel. You have no codes, yet if you look at it wrong, it probably kicks out several codes that you used the wrong detergent, or it needs more dryer sheets....
Thanks, the mobile Mech thought it may be a lift pump to and we won't rule out the fuel, also a boost sensor if bad will cut the fuel also, or messed up temp sensor making the machine think its cold, wonder if a valve guide going bad would cause this, ooh dear the list of problems that could be wrong, will check for codes again, the M in M series stands for migraine.
The Mechanic thought it could be a guide? Only reason I question that is it seems that when it’s an issue dealing with 1 cylinder, usually they throw an injector code (really a misfire code).
We had Mother Cat come in today, looks like #4 injector is bad on the mechanical side of the injector, which can cause a lot more issues with the engine if the tip broke off, parts won't be here till Friday, this was done all by computer laptop, Mother Cat did not take anything off or open the engine up to actually see if that is the extent of the problem.
So they didn't pull the injector anyway to confirm just what they needed for parts? Sounds like a field wrench lining you up for some extra travel time charges.
Exactly, my thoughts also, they should of pulled the injector to confirm their computer findings, the computer does not show what has happened just shows the injector not working and points to you which one, there may be a bigger can of worms going on here.
Well here's a update.. parts came early and mother CAT replaced #4 injector and low and behold it did not fix a dam thing, so then mother Cat replaced the lift pump still the same results, now mother Cat is replacing the Heui pump which will not be in till next Wednesday, mother Cat is saying his laptop is showing low oil pressure and the Heui pump boosts pressure for the injectors, Hmm, just wondering why his laptop did not show this before if this is the problem? thoughts anyone
I’d forgotten that one was HEUI. The pump does step it up to 3000psi or so, and no, I’m not sure why he couldn’t have discovered that the first time around. My suspicions are that there could be another bad injector. The pump could be bad too. Seems odd that a bad HEUI pump would go from running like a top, to run bad, not at all and then running like a top again. I wonder if that thing has a FICM on it?
I am not sure what the FICM you speak of is or I might be calling it a different name, I will note that the HUEI Pump was replaced just about two years ago, but in no way this pump is acting like the way the one we replaced did, Mother Cat is just replacing the pump, the one we replaced the head had to be cleaned and all 6 injectors replaced, the Cat tech was using his laptop to shut down the injectors and turn on the injectors individually to make sure all were working, that's how he found #4 injector was bad, but on his laptop it is saying low oil pressure, running the engine its rough at about 1100 rpm above that is smooth and goes to full rpm without any missing, but if you directly let off the fuel it will miss at idle and want to stall, gently easing off the throttle to idle it runs and idles fine, also will note that when the engine gets hot and happens to stall it will not start or very hard to start. your thoughts are welcomed, thanks
In my experience a hot engine refusing to start (but will start fine when cold) usually points directly at the HEUI pump IF the injectors have been proved not to be leaking. YMMV.
Thank you Nige, let you guy's know the out come
Kind of sounds like two more billable trips to your machine at least before it is back in operation.
Mother Cat fast tracked the pump it arrived early this morning, but of course was the wrong pump, resent the right one and it arrived this afternoon, Cat tech installed after cleaning the rail out and machine seems to be running fine for now, but there was a lot of filings in the old pump and in the rail, so we may be looking at more injectors going soon because of the fillings, the Cat tech recommended cleaning all the head and rail and install the pump and all new 6 injectors as a set at the same time while he was there, Cat recommends this when changing the HEIU pump when it fails, but our shop mech did not want to do that, so we will see if the injectors last.
IIRC Mark250 posted something about cleaning the lines, head passages, and replacing all 6 injectors earlier in this thread. You have to go back to Page 5.
Thanks Nige, I just read Mark250 earlier post, seems like we should have cleaned the head and rail passages and replace all injectors, not doing that I feel its just a matter of time before injectors start going bad again, without doing this Nige could we also have pump failure again ? thanks
Well here's another update, after replacing the HEUI pump and #4 injector putting on a new lift pump changing the fuel filters twice, changed the oil, went out doing a test run with our machine and low and behold its doing the same dam thing again, missing, stalling, no power, I did mention to our mobile Mech that to check the filter in the fuel return line check valve on the back of the head the one Mark250 mentioned in a previous post on page 5, he knew nothing of it and called the Cat mech that did the work for us and he replied that there's no filter just a line and check valve, I don't think they even checked to see, Cat is coming back.
There are two questions on this. First the wrench from the Cat dealer didn't confirm that the problem was gone. Second issue is who is going to pay for the return trips to the machine. Even if it were under warranty you would still be on the hook for mileage and travel time. Sounds like two more trips back and forth on your dollar.
There's no warranty left so its on our dime, I personally think there is accouple of things happening, we did have a HUEI pump failure for sure, I think that was caused by unfiltered oil mixing with filtered oil, somewhere there is a gasket leaking and over time dirty oil is taking the HUEI pump out and then takes injectors out, also I think the fuel return check valve on the back of the head is not working right, I think there's a piece of o ring holding the valve open and causing all sorts of problems, missing, hard to start, idle surging, the engine seems to have a hard time building fuel pressure when starting, this is a common problem on the C7's, those are my thoughts but i'm no way a mechanic either, interesting to see what the Cat mech comes up with, so we are kind of stumped, any suggestions would be welcomed, thanks
Sorry to hear it’s still pulling the same crap. I wonder if it’s able to suck air in on the fuel side somehow (primer pump)? Does that one have the injector harness go through the valve cover gasket? Is there any chance Cat has trouble with the injector drivers in some of those ECM’s? Just grabbing at straws. Might be another injector being as how you mentioned the filings.
Cat tech is coming today, I would think he will change all 6 injectors today and clean the head, this should fix the problem for now... maybe, but something is taking the HUEI pump out over time, so until they solve that then the same problem will return with more down time. I will keep everyone updated of today's findings.
Cat tech cleaned the head and rail installed 6 new injectors and the machine seems to be running fine now, total bill was over 10 grand for this fix plus the down time, I feel the problem will return though, we are hoping there is warranty left on the last HEUI pump, it was changed in the summer of 2017 to help with the bill.
Good morning everyone, just received a call stating our 140m is down again out in the field, I was operating the machine cleaning up after a snow storm yesterday and my partner took over at shift change last evening, he called this morning saying the machine had quit, not sure what the problem is yet, but I will note that the machine was having stalling issues on my shift when cleaning intersections going from forward to reverse and forward again in first and second gear sometimes, I will let you know the problem, there was no codes showing up. thanks
Good Lord...……..sell that dam thing! LOL
Well here's a update, the grader is doing the same thing as before, dying out, missing than stalls, replaced fuel filters and noticed they are half full like before, so I suggested to our fill in Mobile Mech that to have a look at the fuel return check valve, low and behold its toast, the Cat guy that put the injectors in last week told me he checked it and it was working fine, wrong!! there is no way he checked that check valve or he would have had to replace it the condition it was in, also there is a screen in the inline check valve, the cat guy said there was not, wrong again, in ours it was half gone, eat away, so parts will be in tomorrow morning, hoping this is the problem, I will keep you guy's updated.
Well today we found out we have two things going on here causing troubles, first we think unfiltered oil is bi passing the oil filter, we have a gasket leaking where the oil filter housing mounts to the block causing the Huei pump to fail over time with unfiltered oil pushing through the pump, #2 we replaced the fuel return check valve and noticed our fuel pressure returned to normal and machine ran fine for about 10 minutes then died, we removed and checked the fuel filter and at the top of the filter was black sticky sludge, almost looked like pieces of rubber but it was stringy, so we drained the fuel tank took the fuel feeder line off and it was plugged with this sludge, removed bottom connector pipes at the rear bottom of the fuel tank and it had sludge also, so we have what we call fuel algae growing inside the fuel tank and falling down and getting picked up by the fuel feeder line and starving the engine off fuel, now we have to find some way to clean and treat our tank and fuel to prevent algae growing, any suggestions or some treatment anybody has used that is good please let me know. thanks
A good fuel system cleaner is the go, not to confused with injector cleaner. You need to rename that machine "the BOHICA", Bend Over Here It Comes Again. It even sounds indigenous.
Rightly or wrongly, it sound like your dealer may have just got his Get Out Of Jail Free card
There was a guy that came by the shop last fall and was promoting Fuel Right products, he left us his business card, so we will be contacting him to see what he can do for us, we also ordered a gasket for the oil filter housing and also a inline changeable oil filter for the Huei pump that Cat offers now that goes on the oil line going into the Huei pump, this should help keep the oil clean to the pump and injectors,... bend over here it comes again and get out of jail card just about sounds right with this 140m we have, "it ain't easy" LOL
Well here's another update, this one I find rather confusing, we ordered the new updated inline filter for the feeder oil line for the Huei pump which was designed by the Cat engineers to help with Huei pump failures keeping the oil supply clean for the pump, it came today, our mobile Mech called Cats main office to ask a few questions on another issue and mentioned he was installing this new updated inline filter for on our m series with the C7 that is having Huei pump problems, the guy at Cat said they do not recommend us using this newly designed inline filter by Cat engineers on our engine???? *** is up with that??? why and what reason would Cat say that? they are the one's that designed this to help with the pump problems, now our Mech is not sure if he should put it on.
Do you have a publication reference for the installation procedure of the in-line filter..? It may be that it is limited in its effectivity and does not include your S/N. Without knowing what your Tech is looking at it's impossible to tell.
Yes I have the publication reference for the installation of the inline filter, along with pictures for the right way it should look after being installed, our m series falls under the upgrade, here's the number for updated line kit, 20R6642 also Cats bulletin # M0081390 and C7 kit bulletin #M0081390 Thanks Nige
OK, M0081390 only applies to on-highway truck engines as far as I can see. At a quick glance I can't see the S/N prefix of a C7 engine for a 140M grader. One thing in the document that IS relevant though, is the comment "Perform the procedure in Special Instructions, REHS3819 and for repeated low hour failures review Special Instructions, M0068178.". Taking M0068178 first. This document DOES apply to 140M and requires checking the oil filter base gasket, cooler flange flatness, & the bypass valve amongst others. REHS3819 again is relevant to a 140M and details the procedure to clean the rail. I think the words "After a HEUI Pump Failure" should be included at the end of the title. So in summary, M0081390 is only relevant to a 140M in as much as it makes reference at Step 1 of the installation procedure to two other publications that are relevant regarding problem areas and cleanout procedures to be performed after a HEUI pump failure. I would tend to agree with the Cat guy about not installing the inline filter on this particular engine because it is not mentioned in the list of products just below the title of M0081390. The only use I would make of M0081390 is as a reference document directing me to procedures to be adopted in the engine regarding potential trouble spots (M0068178) and also the procedsure to follow for cleaning out the rail after a HEUI Pump failure (REHS3819).
Thanks Nige, in the list of grader engines our c7 is listed for the inline oil filter upgrade, we have ordered the oil filter base gasket to replace where we have leakage around the edges of the base, so i'm thinking there may be a problem there also according to Cats bulletin , we have changed the HEUI pump and clean the head and rails, changed all injectors an installed the updated injectors with the screens, so in a nut shell Cat is trying to keep the oil as clean as possible going into the HUEI pump to prevent pump failure and taking out the injectors, so are you saying this oil in line filter may cause engine damage if installed???
I’m sorry I have no idea. It was 10:30 last night when I was looking for info and I ran out of time before going to bed. What Cat is doing with the online filter is exactly what we told them they needed to do 20 years ago to protect the HEUI pump.
Thanks Nige, that's what I was thinking also, active prevention, but something I am concerned about are these reman HUIE pumps, cat is saying off the record 2000 hrs if you are lucky, they are warrantying them but I don't think the will cover the injectors the pump takes out which is very costly, I believe the factory one from Cat which is around 5 + grand gets around 5 6000 hrs so with active prevention you may get more so that being said the factory pump is better in the long run price wise,but something is still taking these pumps out so i'm hoping these inline filters will help along with less hrs on oil between changes is going to help.
If the engine S/N of your 140M is included in the list of M0083190 then I’d be comfortable doing the filter upgrade. I am travelling at the moment so I won’t be able to do any more checking until probably late next week. One thing about HEUI engines is the need to be very particular about oil and filter changes. I personally would not even try to stretch oil out to 500 hours between changes, I would do them at 250 intervals even if the book said 500 and I’d also be using OEM filters just so that if anything went South there could be no finger pointed at the PM program as a contributing factor to a pump or injector failure.
Thanks Nige, I totally agree on the oil changes and OEM filters, our grader is back up and out working at the moment, I will keep the forum updated, thanks again for your help.
Good day folks, well... we just lost another engine in our 140M in our sister shop, this is the second time the engine went out, lost the first one at 3300hrs Cat covered it and rebuilt it under warranty, now at 3200hrs later the motor went out again, we are just over the 2 year warranty that came with the rebuild from Cat and they are not covering this one, I am not sure if its a C7 or the C9 but it is a DEF engine, still waiting on what happened and what caused the failure, another engine was lost in a 12m3 in one of our other DOT shops in another county a month ago 3200hrs on her Cat is covering that one, in our shop our 140m just completely shut down in the middle of the road a day ago took a couple of hours to get it up and running again, code is saying irregular ECM update so what ever that means, could be a short in the wiring harness, i'm afraid we have not seen the last of this problem, got to love these M's.
We've fixed a lot of electrical connection issues with this stuff. All our new machines get it on every connector before they hit the dirt. It's a 2-part process that involves grease in the connector then a tape to seal it. https://www.repco.com.au/en/brands/senson-tek/senson-tek-electroguard-grease-50gm/p/A9784205
Yes, that is a very good idea to do before working the machine, we use electrical grease also but your product seems heavy duty, not sure if it is available here in this part of Canada I will look up to see if there is any suppliers , if my memory serves me right this has happened before to this machine turned out to be a couple of wires gone bad in the wiring harness, we had to use jumper wires to keep our 140m running till a new wiring harness came in, the wires were a nightmare to track down and sort out. thanks
Well good day everyone, well our 140m is down again, this time we have to pull the engine we have a oil pan gasket gone, has been leaking abit for awhile now but is to the point now that it has to be changed, they should refresh the engine (11000hrs) while they have it out if they are smart, so you know that's not going to happen, this C7 engine has had its problems for sure and is also using abit of anti freeze each week, this engine pull could not come at a worst time on the eve of winter works, the machine worked good this summer though with just a few electrical issues, we also need a set of doors they have completely rusted out, new doors are around 5 to 6 grand a piece so our fab shop is going to try rebuilding them, should be interesting what they come up with, I'm thinking plywood doors for the winter. lol
Have your doors got the glued-in glass or have they been modified to the old-fashioned zip-in glass..?
There the glued in type Nige, the bottoms and tops are really bad completely rusted through, we filled them with foam and toped with body fill last winter but all have fell out, the glass is what's holding the doors together now.
We had lots of issues with cracked glass in M-Series door windows as a result of them banging in the wind, etc. The conversion means that your local flat glass supplier can then fit replacement windows in 30 minutes or less. The curing time on the glued ones is 24 hours IIRC. The zip-in upgrade actually puts more metal in the door. REHS4389 is the Special Instruction that covers the conversion. If your dealer can't help you then PM me with an email address and I'll send you a copy.
Thanks Nige, I will let you know how things turn out, thanks again
Is the coolant turning up somewhere? Like in the fuel filter or oil? Might be injector cups.
We haven't been able to track down where its going, its not leaking anywhere, we are not over filling the tank just to the marks, but if let go the tank would go dry, nothing in the oil or fuel filters, we are kind of puzzled, the engine has to be burning it, but there is no steam out off the exhaust when running or idling, the engine does not seem to be running hot, could be the injector cups.
Have you considered a leaking heater core and the coolant running out of the A/C drain lines? An oil sample report will quickly tell you if the coolant is going up the flue.
Could be, but you would smell it in the cab I would think, we have done a SOS on every oil change does not seem to show up in oil, but sometimes the SOS are not right all the time, did a SOS on my 140h results were to shut the engine down, 50hrs later sent them another sample all green lights good to go, go figure.
If it's a really small leak you might well not smell it. How long does it take for the coolant level in the tank to go down from MAX to MIN if you don't top it up .? Have you ever had an SOS that was positive for either water, glycol, or both..? What are the trends for sodium and potassium in the oil analysis going back as far as you can..? At least a couple of years if you have results to hand.
A couple of points on this: Yes, correct. An individual sample on its own shouldn't be considered a reliable indication of a compartment's condition. Fluid sampling is best used as a trending tool building an overall picture over time. The more time the better. Also, are you simply relying on the labs summary reports of A, B or C condition? This is a mistake. In a situation where you are responsible for the maintenance of equipment, it's extremely beneficial to learn (at least) the basics of analysis interpretation yourself. The lab are processing hundreds of samples a day and subtle emerging issues can get overlooked and, more often, non-issues can get flagged as serious problems. In all probability the recommendation to shut down your engine could be attributed to a sampling error. If you don't feel confident in reaching your own conclusions, call your dealer, ask to speak to the lab and explain your problem. In my experience the interpreters are mostly (in the nicest possible way) closeted nerds who are only too happy to speak to someone in the outernet and put their book-learning into practise.
I'll echo what CM said. Oil analysis interpretation is a bit like playing the Stock Market. It's all about picking out subtle underlying trends rather than looking at one result in isolation as a Go/No-Go thing. One negative result/analysis/interpretation does NOT generally indicate to me that things are going South. Usually the first words out of my mouth in those cases are - "Let's just get another sample and confirm that"
Thanks guy's good info, well I was in our mechanical branch today to get a up date on our 140m and to my surprise the whole machine is completely tore apart including the mouldboard doors and engine, its looking like a reman motor is being put back in, the stock engine is toast, after pulling the engine the mechanic deemed the engine gone after a series of tests (11000hrs) and this engine was rebuilt at around 700hrs under warranty, now how long its going to take to get all the parts needed and put everything back together is the question, i'm thinking 5 weeks minimum if i'm lucky.
What does CAT do when they ReMan C7’s? Do they repair sleeve the worst bores? Do some of those get a 020 overbore?
Not sure but it is a complete engine, nothing off your old motor has to be used, this is a none DEF motor, $55,000 with 1 year warranty only, the money that was spent on this M series grader to keep it going is unbelievable, that's not including down time, I would never ever buy a M series for a company, you would go bankrupt, i'm hoping the new 140 series are a better machine.
What do you get for $55k, a motor in a crate or full service installation?
Just a motor in a crate, another 10k cost plus for full service installation, this engine is the updated version of the C7, what ever that means.
$55000 seems like a lot for that engine but I’ve seen engines come in complete with new engine harness and ECU. One even came in with the DPF. The C7 (and that family of engine) are parent bore engines- there’s no liners. It’s a cast in bore like Cummins 5.9’s, CAT 3208’s and 3204’s. I thought somebody on here might know what CAT prefers to do when they reman them. As far as the 140m goes, they weren’t the only ones trying to get things sorted out. Seems like there were a few machines from that time period trying to get things sorted out. I ran a Volvo grader from around that time, and It sure had it’s share of issues. Almost seemed like new factories learning how to make a lot of things. Not understanding clutch drum hardness, or how to make electrical components that stand up.
Yep, 55k is a lot for a reman, I run a 2007 140h and this m series is a 2008, hard to believe how bad these M series are in 2008 where the 2007 H series was almost bullet proof, somebody at Cat screwed up, these M series should be flawless for the amount of money you pay for one, it seems Cats moto is just sell the machine fix it in the field, but down time costs owners big money, Cat does not care it seems.
Is that motor cost including core charge or is that extra?
I believe that's extra.
Core charge usually comes in the selling price and is refunded later once Parts Dept confirm that the component qualifies as a Core.
Just for fun I looked up a complete reman engine for a B9d 140m. Number came up as 20R5310. Priced at $46207.23 and a $16116.00 core credit. Total $62323.00 before core return. I’m sure if you worked with your dealer they could shave a little off that price.
Thank you, I will pass your info on.
55K......for a complete rebuilt engine!? I didn't read up on the thread but what was the reason for not rebuilding the original engine?
Remember these guys are talking CAD here, not USD. Although even applying the rate conversion it's pricey compared to the US which shows high 20's plus 10k Core Deposit for the same Part Number. Our local dealer can't due a complete zero hours rebuild on an engine for less than the price of a Reman one these days......... I'd love to be able to buy Reman engines for $55k, ours are in the region of 4 times that.....!! (they are a bit bigger though)
Not sure the reason but the stock engine was toast and was rebuilt once already, my best guess is it came down to cost and time frame, we need the machine like ASAP, There was a reman sitting at Cat ready to drop in, we had it sitting on our shops floor in a day.
I was thinking the same. 100% parts availability that you need for an engine rebuild is usually never the case when you ask for the parts. Also when the parts list is dependent on someone's opinion to generate there will always be the items that you only find you need when the component is torn down that nobody thought of at the time the parts list was made. Then the rebuild is stopped waiting for them.
How much down time do you guys usually figure on if you do an in-shop rebuild of an engine like this and have to wait here and there for this or that extra part? I only do oddball engines, but smaller and simpler, and want to see what the ballpark is.
Remember I am usually in the ******* of nowhere and the logistic pipeline can be long and convoluted. As an example "urgent air freight" would be likely around the 14 days timeline provided parts were available at the supplier. That's how much you get kicked in the *** for that $20 part that nobody thought to order when they made the parts list for the component rebuild and what makes the Reman "drop in" option so attractive. For all major components we also have an installation kit that is ordered at the same time as the Reman component. We don't rebuild any components, they all go outside one way or another. Strip, quote, approve, rebuild & test a component it would be unlikely to come in under 90 days, again provided parts were available. We've had turnaround times up to 9 months for components being rebuilt that needed unforeseen parts when they were torn down.
Well we are into week 2 now with the reman still sitting on the floor to be put in, there is some kind of a o ring that is needed to be put in place before the engine can be set in, we just got the o ring from Cat today, so there is parts that are not thought of even with a drop in sitting there, i'm thinking by the end of December this machine should be up and running unless something else comes up to delay things further, this is a bad time of year to get parts shipped, major delay's with the holiday rush.
Back to my comment above regarding install kits for components.....
Well here's a update on our new reman engine install, it has been lowered into the frame....week 4, the mouldboard is still in the machine shop but our doors have returned for this machine, $7800 for the doors repair, pretty much some tin work and body fill done for the door repair, 10 grand for new ones, I give them 1 year in our salty air environment at best before they fall to pieces, on another note I would like to take every texting cell phone that our mechanics have put them all into a pile and burn them!!!! these devices are a major problem in our work place.
A wonderful idea! Maybe it would start a worldwide movement. I think that 97% of the calls/texts are not necessary.
Cell phones are not permitted in our shop. The guys can only used them at break times during the shift.
Some of the new generation would die without their cell phones. On them 24/7. I'm surprised that more companies aren't banning them in the workplace except for emergencies. Using them for taking pictures when repairing things is a good use for them though or talking with a dealer tech. while at the machine. Random texting should be grounds for disciplinary action.
It would probably be cheaper to buy a bunch of digital cameras for shop use, and cordless telephones for talking to tech support, than to allow the mischief of employee phones I think.
Yep they are a big problem, upper management has not recognized this problem yet because they are bean counters, they need paperwork to compare figures, this does not show up on their spread sheets, just off the top of my head taking a good guess I would say our main shop looses 1 hour aday to 7 out off 10 mechanics to personal texting and cell phone conversations, doing the math at say 35 bucks hour that's $245 aday $1225 a week and just under $6000 a month on charged out wages that was wasted on cell phone texting and personal calls not to mention adding more unnecessary down time to the repairs on a piece of equipment that is needed, this kind of stuff is easily hidden and over looked, this is just in 1 shop and these figures may be higher, something to think about
I was thinking of respectable employee's actually using them for work related uses. I never used my cell at work but pretty much everyone in my group would look on the internet from time to time when things were slow. It was brought up and management was looking at other things we could be doing but nothing ever came of it. The whole Canadian Tech. support group was eliminated but not for that reason. Everything went to the US for Canadian tech. support as well. The supervisor we had at the time was also going to shadow us to see what we actually do but absolutely nothing ever came of that either. She kind of left us alone but never helped if we were busy or down a couple people when it was busy. Previous supervisor was always there and very strict about working your full shift and always filled in and helped out when needed. He was forced out along with dozens of other long time managers and product specialists. Some of the group liked her but some us wondered how she got away with continually being the last one in and the first to leave, basically when ever she felt like it. Also had a thousand excuses to not come in. I thought as a senior manager she should lead by example. Another guy who had been their for 40 years said he's never seen anything like it. She was also making personal calls on her cell all the time. I walked into her office and she tried to hide it. My station was right in front of her office. It had curtains but they were translucent ( you could still kind of see through them). Early in her new position, I watched her take several naps on company time. One I remember was when she turned the high back chair around so the back faced the window, put a shawl on, slouched down in the chair so her head was low and never moved. About an hour and a half later she got up to use the washroom! Her office was well lit but she later put a bright desk lamp in. I think to keep her awake. Had her boss not been thousands of miles away in another province I think she might have had problems. She had one of the lowest manager ratings (for their group) when a company wide unanimous survey was done but it made no difference. A few of her excuses: I got a flat tire so I need to take the whole day off to get all new tires on the car. I twisted my ankle so won't be in today. Took the day off to pick up her new car. It wasn't ready but she took the entire day anyway and another day when the car was ready.
I wonder how many phone hours were billed to the end user customer assuming this shop does outside work.
Our shop does not do outside work, but a lot of our mechanics do, which is fine after hours, nothing wrong with making a little money on the side, but a lot of their cell calls and texting while working in our shop are related to their after hours gig they have on the side, I have experienced this while giving one of our mechanics a hand on different occasions, mobile mechs have the company cell which is needed but most have 2 more for personal use, I have been helping our mobile different times and all three cells where ringing at the same time and it was the company one he answered last, unbelievable
C9 is A hunk of junk i did 3 HEUI pumps in 8.5k hours if i was to do it all again it would be out with that and in with a 3306
Well guy's here's a update on our shiny new quality Cat engine install... the engine fired up then took to knocking and rattling filled the whole shop full of smoke....INJECTOR FAILURE!!!!! took about 3 minutes for our first one to go, #4 injector, does this sound familiar????? 140M DOWN AGAIN.. one would think for 55 grand you could at least hear it idle. I take this as a bad omen for what's to come.
Can you "lemon law that thing? A change of upper management lately? Word comes down to cut costs, coast along on our reputation.
What we call infant mortaility. It happens. Let me just check on something - what's the Reman engine Serial Number..?
I will be in town tomorrow I will get it for you, another update on the new engine... 1 injector gone but not the only problem, Cat has now taken the head off, the problem lies deeper, unbelievable, there is no way Cat dynode tested this engine.
Well guys she's up and running, Cat fixed everything for now and the engine seems to be running fine, mouldboard is being put back on all with new bushings so everything should be nice and tight for iceblading, the refurbished doors seem to fit ok and seal fine which is good in the cold weather, ...but I am superstitious of C7's and for good reason, we will see how the reman motor holds up, kinda off to a bad "start", see what happens. oh yeah... Merry Christmas everyone!!
Get rid of that thing.
I’ve had contractors tell me I can’t use phone except at break . Guess who calls me all day? If they ask why I don’t answer phone I tell I can’t use phone except at break,then they ask why I didn’t answer during break . I don’t talk shop on my break
LOL
Sounds like you are soon due to be cashed up, right or wrong. Tell them to give you a company phone for ay work if they want to chat.
Hi all, Happy New Year!!! to all, I had to work today our 140m is up and running, was ice blading today, this new reman does not seem to have the torque the blown engine had, maybe it needs to break in abit, all and all was a good day other than a gear in the circle gear box broke, hard to believe its only made of aluminum, any way I had a spare gear hid away from another repair afew years ago, about a hour fix. will be chasing ice tomorrow.
We've got a few digital cameras at our shop for that. I find its more of a PITA to try and track one down than to just whip out my phone and email pictures to my company email.
Well here's a update on our new engine in our 140m, the new engine seems to be going through engine oil, in two 9hrs shifts it has gone through 3 gallons of oil is this normal for break in on a new engine? it seemed good at first only going through a litre and a half in a shift but it is using more now, your thoughts anyone?
My smartphone also runs my borescope, has my hytorc settings app, has my trade in and prework inspection apps, and also has a VR app that overlays component diagrams over a machine. I’m not giving it up for a point and shoot digital camera and a landline
Report it to your Cat dealer. Keep a close track of how much oil is added every time it is topped up and the machine hour meter reading when the oil was added. That will be the first thing they ask for.
Yes we are keeping track of the oil amounts and the amount of hours between adding more oil, I hope we are not having another engine failure, our mobile say's there's oil in the exhaust.
Another thing to keep accurate track of, fuel added. A lot of the "excessive oil consumption" data out there usually relates how many litres of fuel burned per litre of top-up oil added.
Maybe I missed it, is this a "new" engine or a shop rebuild? I'd consider that excessive. I've broke in 8 new machines. Never had one burn anywhere near that much oil. I changed the break-in oil at 250hrs on our current machine. Burned one gallon. Have 40 hrs on the current oil. Still on the full mark.
Ok, we have card lock so we can look at the amounts burnt on every shift. thanks
The motor is a reman from Cat, I was thinking that it may be abit excessive to. thanks
At that rate I would think you could see oil burning out the exhaust. It’s not leaking oil anywhere?
The rings didn't seat in my rebuilt 3204 and it was using copious amounts of oil but had absolutely no smoke out the exhaust. It was repaired on warranty but the shop foreman even noted there was no smoke when they drove it across the yard.
That's way too much oil! BOHICA If the engine has a DPF that is working correctly, you won't see any smoke. You will see very short intervals between regen cycles.
There is no leaks anywhere and no sign or smell of any oil smoke that I or my partner noticed, but I guess if your not looking for it you would not notice right off when operating especially working at night, maybe the rings didn't seat properly, we will take notice now.
Its a non DPF engine, its the early version of the m series C7 2008.
Then the next question is have you checked to see if the oil level is climbing in the transmission?
No we have not check to see if the oil is climbing in the Tranny, but there is oil signs on the exhaust, I will check the tranny, thanks
Oil signs in the exhaust are not a good omen on a low hour rebuild Just my take on it Keep a tally on how much oil/fueled used They have limits for what is correct/ incorrect Shi**y deal all around if it is in fact burning that amount Is there much blowby ?
Interested to hear the results of this.
Sorry.. what are you referring to in regards of blow by, we have not dug in to deep into the engine as of yet we just have noticed the amount of oil this new engine is using, if the oil consumption continues then the **** will hit the fan I expect, right now we burnt about 118 gals of fuel to 3 gallons of oil, we are keeping watch now and documenting the usage. thanks
When my rebuilt engine was using oil the shop said to put 500 hours on it. I did that but it was still using a lot of oil so out it came.
If you pull the dipstick or oil filler cap with it running is there visible smoke ? Was always a quick way to determine the state of the rings etc. In the old days the breather tube told the tale but nowadays all that gets recirculated.
there might be 200hrs on the new engine.
I will have a look, I am on the machine tomorrow.
At that rate your well over what Cat considers a problem . They use a 250 to 1 ratio of fuel to oil as a reportable failure. They will want a record of fuel used to oil added for warranty. Your dealer should help you get the papers to fill out. On a C7 heui I think there is a chance the high pressure oil can cross over to the fuel side of the injector past the seals so you may want to look at your fuel tank and see if it’s getting black at the end of the day.
Thank you
Hell, that engine should be under warranty. Be careful what you screw with so they don't void your warranty...….it happens! I would be ringing CATS phone off the hook...….while not touching that engine.
There is 1 year warranty on the engine, not sure what our mobiles plan is but we will watch very closely on the oil and fuel usage for now on, with the history and problems with this machine we are making sure we get everything documented.
Yeah, that's extremely excessive!!!
There is a lot of visible smoke coming out of the oil filler tube, I checked today with the engine running.
Well, that’s not a good sign.
Especially with an evac system that should be creating a vacuum.
My partner was out on the other shift on Saturday he burnt 300L of fuel and around 1 L of oil according to the dipstick this morning, but the motor seems to take spells where it will use 3-4 L of oil with that same amount of fuel burnt, I am out tomorrow morning for a full shift with the machine, it will be hard pushing, will see how it makes out.
Might as well drive it to your CAT dealer and leave it there.
Cat won’t do the repair without the documentation of oil and fuel use. Unless of course you have a cat rep that is creative with the paperwork.
I wonder if this engine was run on a dyno.
20/80 emailed me the Serial Number. According to the system I can see when & where it was dyno tested, and it all fits with it being a Reman unit, unless someone is telling porkies.......
Pushed the engine hard today, will see if it is down on oil in the morning, also noticed the engine is running hotter than normal, all fluids are up where there suppose to be, right on the start of the red on the gauge most of the afternoon, outdoor temp was -6c or 26F, The old motor never ran that hot being pushed hard in the winter, and yes the rad is clean.
Fan speed good? Any chance the fan may have been removed during the engine swap and installed backwards? Any large gaps between the fan shroud and coolers? Any large gaps between the coolers in the package?
Fan speed is good, when they replaced the engine they checked the fan speed it was on the low side, so now it is running where it should be.
Blowby causing increased engine temp? Not sure with this new stuff
Next thing we’re gonna hear is that the number 4 injector failure caused the oil consumption due to the tip blowing off the injector and scoring # 4 cylinder. Just a wild guess.
Well checked the oil this morning and is still on the full mark, went through 402 litres of fuel yesterday, not sure why this engine is doing this, it seems just all of a sudden it starts going through oil then stops, is this how a new engine breaks in? we will keep watching, not sure what is next, but with the bad experience we had have with the 140m's I am superstitious, i'm thinking this engine will torture us.
Don't give them the daily usage figures, just give them the gallons of oil / gallons fuel figure over weeks or a month and hopefully you can get satisfaction that way....
Thanks
Average the fuel vs oil added figures over a week/month if it helps to smooth out the "bumps in the road" that you might see in the daily data.
OK, thanks, The machine was down 3L this morning, oil was on full mark when I left yesterday morning burnt 280L of fuel, I will do a average for a month, interesting to see.
Wow! 3L in one shift you'd think you'd be seeing a puff of blue out the exhaust now and then.
You do see exhaust smoke when going from forward into reverse and back again but never noticed any blue smoke or smelled a hint of oil burning from the exhaust fumes.
Nige, could the inconsistency of usage possibly indicate a crankcase ventilation problem that comes and goes? I'm struggling with the idea that there's excessive oil going past the piston rings one day and not the next.
I have seen an issue like that with valve guides. Working a lot of hills can leave oil sitting on top of the head at times and slows down the drain back to the crankcase. Does this machine have a positive crankcase ventilation and a filter?
That is more than I could tell you, I will ask the mobile.
Well here's a update, as for the burning oil issue the engine seems to take spells in oil usage good for about 500L of fuel than drop 3 Litres of oil on the next 250L of fuel used, currently our machine is out off service with our next issue, blown manifold gasket, turned every thing black in the engine compartment, partner did not notice it where he was out on shift at night ice blading, wasn't till he got back to the shop that he noticed all the panels were black,... guy's this is only the start of a long and tortures road ahead with this new engine.
Ok guy's here's a update on the new engine, after the first 250hrs service the engine went through a little over 4.5 gallons of oil, the engine now has seemed to settle out on using oil but grading season is coming and the operator on the machine for the summer pushes the machine hard to say the least, don't have the amount of fuel burnt to oil yet but working on it.
Imperial gallons? Darn near a pail. Does seem like a lot. I guess the other operator pushing it a bit would help seat the rings, if that is the issue.
Yep, a little over 20 liters, I would say that's a lot on a new engine, my 140H is nearing 14000 hrs and may go through a litre of oil every other day when pushed.
I know when they put a new engine in the Volvo, it had high blowby and oil consumption for quite a while. It’s 7 years ago, so my memory is vague. I think it was maybe 5-600 hours. Once it sealed up the, it consumed nothing and there was no blowby at all. Western rep wanted it beat on pretty hard during break in (within reason).
I was wondering before what CAT would have done with the cylinders in that being as they are cast into the C7 block. I know repair sleeves are available. I’m not sure if oversize pistons and rings are available. Is it possible they just got a hone and new pistons? If so, it’ll take a bit longer to break in.
Not sure, somebody may chime in that would know.
Well here's another update, we still have the oil problem, comes and goes, this morning the operator checked the oil was on the full mark, ran the machine to the shop to do a PM on the machine around 30 miles of roading, when he got to the shop the oil level was below the add mark, also we noticed on the side of the motor there is a engine vent hose, the area below the hose was completely saturated in oil, to add misery to this situation the vent on the tranny fill tube is also pushing tranny oil out, the trans level is in the middle of the hatch marks so its not over filled, unbelievable! I am presently running a 140m2 for the last month while my baby is getting a paint job, the machine is a 2016-17 and on its third engine c9, 7200 hrs on the machine, the motor has not gone down on oil in a month but has gone through 3 injectors in the last year, replaced one last week, got to love the M's.
The only way to solve this is.....KILL IT WITH FIRE!!
Lol, its funny you said that, two weeks ago the machine had a electrical fire, the red battery cable going to the starter the clamp that holds the wire to the fire wall chafed the wire then shorted out, causing it to melt and arcing with fire, we were lucky somebody seen it as it happened and put it out, now the alternator is on its way out on op of everything else. unbelievable.
Would it really have been so bad if it just put itself out of its misery though?
The one saturating everything by the road draught hose, that might just be the crankcase vent filter. Other things can cause “carryover” as well that can be miner. I wonder if the turbo has issues. That can cause high crankcase pressure. And if that ones an EGR motor, then there’s higher pressures everywhere.
The engine is down on power so you could be right there may be turbo issues, we are going to check the boost under load.
Lol, our department has lots of money it seems for repairs, but very little to replace a machine, even if the repair bills surpass the cost of a new one, this is how it seems to work, so they will just keep running and repairing this machine.
On a another note, I would like to share a helpful piece of info for the guy's and gal's that are running the M series graders, on the 140m2 that I have been running for the last month the department has installed electrolysis in the joy sticks, I suffered from my hands and arms going numb running these M series graders with joystick control along with many other operators, this add on works very well and I have not suffered any pins and needles or numbness in my hands or arms at all, I highly recommend this add on product if any operator suffers from numbness running the joysticks on the M's, hope this helps somebody out.
Thanks for the update. I was wondering how things were going
I wonder if the newer ones are any less headache though. Truckers here just keep rebuilding the older trucks and a lot of days I wish we could just rewind pre 07 graders affordably.
We have a couple of 2015 and 2016-17's, the 15 lost a engine, the 2016-17 we are on engine#3, we have a 2018 12m3 that has been trouble free so far, alot of the pulp contractors here were buying glider kits for trucks to keep away from emissions but the Government has clamped down on glider kits now, what I have seen and experienced with m series graders sense 2008 when the M's came out, the only option now for a contractor would be to lease a grader from Cat, if you bought a new or used m series Cat grader to do a job you would risk going bankrupt with repairs and down time, I love Cat products but that's my honest opinion on the M's, the new 120's with the next generation cab and levers is one nice looking machine with lots of neat and well thought out upgrades, I hope the next generation cab migrates to the new 140's soon.
NS is cracking down on gliders? Man I'm glad I live out west lol.
As far as I know, any 2019- 2020 has to be tier 4 emissions, so its pointless to buy a glider kit now, alot look for older trucks now with minimum emissions junk and rebuild them.
Figured that "Glider Kit" door would get slammed shut before long.
Company I drive for has phased out almost anything with dpf or def and has went to gliders can’t depend on the emissions trucks to make the delivery on time and a lot of our deliveries are spaced to keep the plants running an hr late on some of them can shut a whole plant down
I got to the point where I didn’t want to take a teir 4 machine out when it was -30 and a wind chill to compound that. You get “engine protection active” without notice and you might be sitting there with the engine shut down and no dealer mechanic to bail you out. The one day I wasn’t able to keep my phone warm enough after a couple hours for it to charge. A couple more phone calls and I wouldn’t have been able to call out. I can’t imagine how something like that can be used in remote areas.
We checked the boost using the onboard gauge on our 2008 M and its showing 20psi on a hard pull, so i'm not sure if that's where it should be, but the engine seems down on power for a new oil burning reman, we were getting ready to go do some ditching with this machine on Monday, backing it out of the shop and the alternator went, LOL. got to love the M's
Spec is 21.2psi @ 1200RPM, 23.9psi @ 2000 RPM - both of them when the engine is running loaded.
Thanks Nige, the machine was pulling 19-20psi at 1500rpm under load on a steep hill, so would you say the boost would be running a bit low?
Are you guys paid by the mile or by the hour?
Kinda both.
What elevation are you at? If you’re at a high elevation, those boost #’s might not be out much. More important is if there’s much oil in the hot pipes or cold pipes on the turbo. Is there a chance that it consumed oil on days it did a lot of idling or got ran hard?
We are at sea level or alittle above mostly, its hard to pin point, some days your fine then it will take oil all of a sudden, we never really checked the hot and cold pipes on the turbo but there's oil out the exhaust, we have a hint of coolant smell when you start it now, not sure what's going on there yet, i'm running a 140m2 for the last couple of weeks with a reman in it and has not taken a drop of oil so far.
I'm paid by the hour. In return I expect to provide the most productivity I can. If the machine I'm running is not functioning at maximum productivity it is my responsibility to report that and expect resolution. If disruption or below par production continues it is my responsibility to push the manufacturer for improvement. I'm not into sitting on the sideline, on the clock, with no productivity. When our machine is sitting in my driveway with a tech working on it I am not on the clock. I only clock hours when productive.
Well... we have another problem on our 08 140m, on our circle gear for the blade, a month ago the operator was doing some ditching and the pinion shaft snapped and the cog fell out on the ground, not a big deal, we ordered a new pinion and gear but our parts clerk ordered aftermarket parts not Cat, everything fitted ok but shortly after being used the oil in the circle gear was getting extremely hot and the blade would bind, pinion and gear looked fine so we changed out the gear motor looked at the shims for the clutches everything looks fine, worked good for about a day and a half now the blade is binding again and the oil is at normal temp not hot like before, kinda scratching our heads on this issue, any idea's?
After 15 pages of issues? I suppose the lemon law doesn't apply here.
What kind of aftermarket parts? Cat Classic or no? What function was binding? The circle turn? Use Head and Shoulders shampoo. LOL.......just kidding
Has the circle been adjusted recently? I've seem plenty of blade circles that only run on about one third of the circle. The wear is all in one place and then some one adjusts the circle to the worn spot. A new operator then starts using the grader on the less worn areas of the gear, such as for ditching, and everything there is real tight. Adjusting a circle is as much about feel as it is setting clearances according to the book. Even at the dealerships in my days, there were only a couple of guys that would be asked to do it.
the bind is in the gear box, we are now going to replace the brass bushings that the pinion sits in and all the bearings and races, there was some play in the brass bushing that the pinion slides in, not sure what aftermarket suppler, the boxes they come in look like Cat products but are not, the circle had new shims and plastic wear pads put in about a month and a half ago, everything worked fine after the install.
Yes, Head and shoulders, ha ha, that's a good one.
Sorry you are having this problem..... I have no patience for "aftermarket" parts. China and others have filled this country with junk aftermarket parts. Tolerances are horrible. I don't even blame the workers. I blame brand names like CAT, Deere, etc. They are allowing their name to be put on these parts with substandard quality. Shame on them. Hope you get a solution soon. That would be very aggravating!!!!
Thanks, I agree with you on aftermarket parts, its all about the savings to the bean counters, 5 day wait for the aftermarket parts while Cat would have them at the door the next morning, down time means nothing anymore, it is aggravating to say the least.
This^^^
Well I haven't posted in a while, are winter works is coming to a end soon, did not have a busy winter here to say the least but did get out a far bit, well the problems with our 140m has not gone away, it still takes a couple of liters of oil a shift and now is going threw anti freeze, about a gallon every other shift, also we are getting a rumble in the brake peddle when pressed and its throwing a code saying low brake pressure, the anti freeze problem Cat just said to fill it to the add mark because filling it to the full mark the engine must be blowing it out the overflow, so yesterday I was ice blading and left the shop with the anti freeze level on the add mark and the temp gauge was on the first part of the red mark most of the day even threw a code saying hi anti freeze temp but no light came on, now we cleaned our rad to no end to make sure that's not the problem, so when I returned to the base you could not see the anti Freeze in the tank, this morning it was back to the add mark? as for the low pressure code in the brakes we called Cat and they seem to think it was just from the machine sitting for a couple of day's without being used.. not a issue? now when the machine is idling and you take the oil filler plug out is there suppose to be steam or smoke coming out of the tube? I believe the oil and anti freeze is going out the exhaust, there is no leaks anywhere with a small hint of anti Freeze smell from time to time but not often, this new reman engine has no power at all and you are always grabbing for gears to keep her moving forward, that's my rant for today, oh yeah... I may be getting my 140H sadly replaced, a new 150AWD M series, ohhh Dear!
I dislike unfair competition, but you can't blame China and their factories for this cheap crap, they build exactly the quality they're asked to. I do buy a fair number of parts from there, because there really is no supply here for most of them. If there is one remaining supplier the price is SO high only true blue folks can afford to go there. Three grand for a starter, alternator, turbocharger? Seriously? Anyway, when negotiating I always let the sales reps over there know I am willing to pay more for higher quality, usually works in my favor. Some suppliers here do require a certain level of quality. Others only care that it shows up in the box and looks like it might fit.
They should have bought one.
You’ll always get a little bit of “blow by” coming out the oil filler, but compare it to something you know is healthy. If there’s an issue, it often shows in blowby. Not sure what to think about your antifreeze and oil consumption. The antifreeze level dropping hot but returning cold? Wondering if there is air somewhere. I guess I’d be wondering if an injector cup (or sleeve) is leaking. If that’s an EGR motor, the EGR cooler could be leaking. Or head gasket. The head gasket could be creating oil consumption as well. If I was to have the head off that one, I’d be rubbing dye on every surface I could find.
That's one of those machines that just needs to have a terrible fire one weekend. Also wouldn't be the first 140M that I've heard of to be a total PITA.
That a solution? Raise your insurance rates and the dealer/manufacture got rid of a lemon and sells another machine. Not sure I agree with that solution unless it the dealer burning it.
It's probably more of a feeling than a solution. I've had a few of those feelings myself over the years.
The last batch of grader blades I bought from Toromont were labelled made in China. I sent them right back. They weren’t even 5/8 as advertised. Even with all that paint. Funny part was that I had ordered 3/4. I canceled those as well Sad thing is they are still made less than a half hour from here but to someone China is a more viable option.
Yep.. cheap Chinese steal.
Profit margin. All about profit margin.
Yes.. margins, lol, Rob peter to pay Paul, all it takes is one operator out of a thousand to think there great!
Should have kept one set just to experience how terrible they were.
Might explain why end bits on a brand new Cat 140 both broke in less than 50 hours working in clay. Stamped Cat but who knows where they originated.
Sadly those kinds of experience’s get costly and very old in a hurry.
Well its been a while sense I put some new info or updates on our 140m, the new reman engine stills burns about a gallon of oil a 10 hr shift, The department seems to think that's normal, lol, and also this past Friday my old partner was fixing a rough section of road when all of a sudden the rear right side of the machine raised in the air on him, lol, some how the chain broke and Jammed the front cogs in the tandem, NOT GOOD, it seems the bearing in the tandem let go causing the chain to jam and snap, piling up in the front of the tandem, so this is not going to be a cheap fix, most of the inners are damaged or cracked, parts are very hard to get it seems, I was told 35-40 plus grand to fix here in Canada, how's that for a nice start for the spring grading season.
Bummer. I'll bet that freaked out the operator!!!!! By locking the front tire it caused the tandem to oscillate until it hit the bump stop!!!! Wish we had pictures!!!!
I will take a few pics of it all apart in the next day or to.
Well I took some pics today but when I got home I was going to load the pics off my SD card and I found out that my new Laptop doesn't have a SD port, so I have to get a card reader thing a ma jig to read them, and no I do not have a smart phone to take pics with just a old flip phone cell, I'm old school, lol, I will get the pics up soon.
I didn't think my Laptop had one either until my Granddaughter showed it to me. Just a simple slot on the right side end of the keyboard, next to the CD drive. No markings. She also gave me an adapter so I can scan the Micro SD card in my Drone. There's also a couple other ports there that I have no idea what they do......
Well here is a few pics of our 140m rear tandem that snapped , still waiting on parts
Ouch, hate to see that kind of thing. Good luck with the fix!
Which bearing failed.?
Turns out one of the side links in the drive chain cracked seen here in the picture let go which then caused a whole pile of issues, final drives, both drive chains, the drive cogs you see sitting on the table are all cracked and fractured, the bearings were our first thoughts that let go but after further inspection they seem fine
Drive that dam thing into the nearest lake.
We had problems with the drive chains with this machine before, when it was still under warranty we were doing the PM on the machine, we were changing the oil in the tandems once the oil drained out we noticed pieces of metal lying on the bottom of the housing, turns out all the steel bushings on the drive chains that the drive sprocket teeth rest on were all broken off on both chains and in both tandems, never ever seen that happen before till this 140m machine, Cat covered it.
The 500K boat anchor! Apparently Cat doesn't use very high quality chains in the tandems. On smaller chains some people will replace them with high end motorcycle chain instead of using industrial chain. Not an option on a grader but there had to be some heat treat issues or poor quality steel for the side links to break. Since it was already replaced under warranty is Cat helping at all with this new failure?
Do you happen to know how many hours were on the original chains when they were replaced.? Is the machine Serial Number below B9D01578, B9G00158, B9M00596, or D9G00115.? Did Cat also replace all the sprockets when they replaced the chains under warranty.? How many operating hours on the replacement chains.? Also do you have any photos of the broken link taken from the side as opposed to from the end as per the photo above.? I need to see the shape of the side plates (this might be important). Also are there any identifying marks stamped on the link side plates.?
Good post. Hope we get some answers to those questions, not to cast blame, just to educate ourselves.
If I remember right there was 4000hrs on the first chains, and I don't think they replaced the sprockets, there's about 8000hrs on the replacement chains, I was looking for the broken side link today, couldn't find it, our mobile must have it, Cat was wondering if it was the master link that let go, it was not. i will check with the mobile also see if there is any markings and snap another picture.
Any more pictures of the chain around the area where it broke,especially taken from the side, would be useful. Any definite info you can get hold of regarding if the sprockets were replaced or not would be good. The way I see it is if the rollers on the first set of chains broke up that would lead to the pins connecting the links riding on the sprockets instead of the rollers. This would create some very high contact pressures and I'm sure would have marked the sprockets. For that reason alone it would have been prudent for the dealer to replace the sprockets under warranty and claim them as "contingent damage" from the mode of chain failure. Whether that has anything to do with the second failure or the current condition of the sprockets I can't state for sure because I'm not standing there looking at them.
I asked our mobile this morning that did the work about the first set of chains that were damaged, he said Cat just sent them the new chains, the drive sprockets were not wore enough to justify replacing according to Cat, while all along the machine was under warranty we did the work and replaced the chains not Cat, I will try to get some more pics for you of the recent breakage of the chain and side link that let go.
Here are some more pics Nige
Did someone take a gas axe to that chain to get it out.? Sure looks like it was gas-cut. That's an old-style chain with the side plates shaped like an 8. New ones look like the image below with parallel side plates. I'll bet good money that the crack was started when the rollers of the original chains fell apart. The pins would have been running right in the root of the tooth and the point loads would've been off the scale.
What size are those chains ?
2¼" pitch on this machine. 2½" pitch on a 16, 3" pitch on a 24.
Yeah they were cut, only way our mobile could get the chain out of the housing, the chain was tightly jammed up in the final drives, should the newer style chain have been in this 2008 140m? just thinking with the introduction of the M series they would not be mix and matching with the old design.
Why?
Not sure, but will find out, you would think while under warranty Cat would do the work.
To the best of my knowledge they should have been installed when the warranty repair was done @ c4K hours. They would not have been original fitment at time of machine build, they came later. I still am of the opinion that because of the mode of the initial chain failure the start of the sprocket failure process occurred at the same time. The external cracks in the photos would appear later, it’s known as high-cycle fatigue. What happens is that higher than normal stresses (chain roller collapse in this case) initiate some sort of internal defect. Normal operating stresses after that time (with the new chains in place) would slowly develop the defect into a full-blown crack and to the eventual failure of the sprocket. In this case though, the chain failed first although it’s obvious from the photos that the sprocket was not far behind it. I hope that explanation makes some sort of sense. Question: This is all on one side of the machine. I hope someone is going to take a very close look at the other side...?
Sometimes it's nothing more than convenience. Dealer doesn't have the necessary resources immediately available but the parts are on site. Customer wants the machine back to work PDQ so does the work and in the process accrues Brownie Points for the next time they need a favour from the dealer.
Had to be some kind of stress to crack in the sprocket root! Why weren't the sprockets replaced? Cat should be doing the labour and replacing everything now. What a nightmare of a machine.
Yes thank you Nige, I have suggested that they better have a close look at the other side before it fails also, but the department will just ignore the request, someone in upper management that thinks they know better does not want to spend the money in wages for the mobile to pull the other side apart, bean counters that can't count, lol, would be a perfect time do do so while waiting for the parts for the other side, 4 weeks now.
Yes this machine has had alot of problems from day one, I don't think Cat would want to use this machine they made as a advertisement for selling the M series graders, lol, but I hope this post helps buyers ask questions when looking at a used or new M series grader
I think it could all be done without disassembly, simply drain the oil from the tandem and let everything sit and drip for 24 hours or so. The sprockets could be inspected pretty easy with a borescope, or even a GoPro on the end of a selfie stick. Same for the chains that could be inspected through the rectangular holes in the top of the tandem case and simply rotate the wheels through one full chain circuit. Where there's a will there's always a way. Where there isn't a will - well you know where that all ends up............
Yes I agree Nige, maybe it will happen hopefully, grading season is here, we need the machine.
This is another example of the excellent knowledge and support we all get from NIGE on this site. He's invaluable and I've learned a LOT from reading his posts. I hope he outlives me. Thanks NIGE!!!!
good day everyone, haven't posted in a while now, just been busy i guess, well our 140m is down again, after getting it back from a rear tandem rebuild again it seems the old c7 has a number 5 cyl miss, its showing low current on the screen, when its at idle no lights or codes but once you hit the fuel the lights and codes come up, not sure what's going on with it, just started doing this, no warning or troubles giving us a hint that something is not properly working, 5 weeks to get a injector i was told, unbelievable trying to get parts from cat
Five weeks for an injector from Cat is unacceptable. That's not a rare one off type repair. Cat used to be next day for most parts if you ordered before a certain time.
Turns out its the ECM not the injector, after doing some more testing on our 140M, 1 week to get it , bit better than 5 week wait for a injector