A little tidbit of info about Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injector (HEUI) engines for anyone who doesn't know. Had a customer call me today, said one of his trucks won't run, I-H 4700 with DT466E. Got at site, tries to hit a lick, but just dies. Found fuel in left tank, but none in right tank, I ran into this same problem on this truck before. Added 4 gal fuel to right tank, started working hand primer and cranking. It was trying to run, but just wouldn't get up and go. Since it had that tank empty, just got stuck on it being a fuel problem. Then it hit me "dummy...get ur head out of your arse!" Sure enough, pulled the dipstick, it was 2 1/2 gallons low on motor oil. Here's the thing, I don't know what all common rail engines operate like this, maybe all, but I know a couple that won't run when they get low on oil. They have two oil pumps, one for engine lubrication, and one for the HPOP system, the high pressure oil pump for injection system. It's not unusual for the pickup for the HPOP to be at a higher level than the lubrication pump. So if you run it low on oil, there's still enough oil in sump to lube engine, but not enough for the HPOP to pick up oil, engine quits running. So if you come across a truck or piece of equipment that acts like it's out of fuel, fuel filter clogged, or fuel line blocked, take a moment to check dipstick. You just might find a quick solution to engine not running problem.
I have found this to be common with a HEUI fuel system. Other common rail engines such as the old Cummins PT fuel system would destroy themselves is ran out of oil but I have never saw a HEUI system engine killed from lack of engine oil.
Yep, I know it does the same thing on the old 7.3 Powerstroke. I haven't been into the innards of so many of these newer engines, so I don't know if this affects a few brands or pretty much all of the new common rail engines. But it's not a bad idea for a wrench to remind himself to check the oil first thing before he does anything else.
Never seen that on a common rail, seen it on HEUI engines alot.
Ok, so maybe I'm using the wrong term saying common rail fuel engine. I suppose the HEUI system is more proper as I have noticed this on 7.3 powerstroke and DT466E engines in particular which are both HEUI fuel systems. Thanks guys.
I had this problem on our Cat Challenger with the C9 engine when it had 400hrs on the clock, we were cultivating some very steep hills and it decided to quit halfway up a hill. Added more oil and got it to run enough to get it down off the hill but had no power as HEUI pump was spent and only running at half pressure. Happened on a sunday afternoon and Cat had a new one in it and we were going again by monday lunchtime, did it under warranty too. Needless to say we make sure the engine oil is a bit over fill when doing steep stuff.
Atco, Please tell me whoever it was that was driving that truck got a good reaming from the boss, 2 1/2 gallons low on oil? I wonder if he's ever heard of the word "Pre-Trip"?
LoL, trust me, I gave (long time customer) Mr. Brown a good talking to. I'm certain Mr. Brown will give his guys a good reaming.
dirty4fun If I was Mr. Brown I would give the driver, or who ever it was that started the truck without checking the oil level the bill for your service call. Bet it would help him and everyone else around to check engine oil levels.
If I was Mr Brown, I would give the driver his pay for the days before that one, and 5 minutes to get out of my yard.
I was going to say the same thing about HPCR systems they are just a high pressure pump and usually some type of electronic injector. Lube oil is only for lubrication for High Pressure pump and/or extra cooling. I've seen a few techs not tighten the oil line to the high pressure pump and it sure ran, but....... Oil bath was the order of the day.. Hahahaah
Is this engine like the Perkins Navistar thing we have in the U.K. it has electronic injectors with the fancy Rexroth pump hooked in, the engine is nearly to dear to repair, the injectors are about £350 each and the pump is £1800, the engine is not liked and sells in very small numbers on this rock.
I changed the thread title to more appropriately reflect the type on engine and injection system being discussed on this thread. I'm hoping this thread becomes and information source of the various bugs that cause an HEUI injected engine and possible diagnostic methods for those who view this thread. Any input members can offer on troubleshooting various problems of HEUI engines would be much appreciated.
HEUI pumps are pretty simple to diagnose after checking the basics, With ET check the desired and actual Injection actuation pressures and they should be very close, normally within 50psi. If not the problem is either sensor reading incorrect, leaking injector or bad pump. Most of the time it will be the pump. sensor, just try a known good one. Pump, check the coil, should read 8 ohms +-2, if not pump is bad. Also lift the top off, check for metal sticking to the coil inside. it should be clean. Injectors, a cutout test should tell you how the injectors are performing Depending on the complaint and symptoms dictates how i proceed.
As far as reaming the driver goes I would have to point out that the wrench just admitted he didn't check the oil until after he tried to start the truck As to everyday wrenches having access to ET, I can say in this part of the world it don't happen. Is there some kind of OBD system on trucks yet?
I was thinking the same thing John. I spotted the Data Link port inside the cab, didn't have any kind of code reader like that, was wondering what type of equipment is required to connect to data link on these trucks.
I know with newer cat engines and cat equipment you pretty much have to have ET to do any kind of troubleshooting. You can pay to subscribe to ET for $$$$ or you can pay for a service call $$$$. Or just throw parts at it but either way you pay.
Yep, I'm like John C, don't have the fancy stuff to check engines like this. But I'm not fond of fixing by parts changing either, kinda hard to tell customer "well, I changed this $$$ part...still didn't fix it" LoL One thing I learned years ago working on the old 7.3 stroke with HEUI injectors, if one is running really really bad, first thing you do is drop a piece of clear tubing into the fuel tank and draw out some fuel. If fuel looks stained with motor oil, near sure bet you've got some failed injector o-rings if not crapped out injector.
I've had this issue alot on C15 CAT engines, to the point that when i serviced them i used to change the engine oil and filter, then run it up, then replace the fuel filter/s, clean screens, then prime and run it up, sometimes but not all the time if you change the oil and all the filters at once and it doesnt fire up first time its a pain to bleed them up! and yep, its the oil level is below the add mark they generally will not run either as theres a pressure switch on the acuator oil circuit which cuts out the injectors until the pressure reachs XXXpsi
I had a dt466 that would intermitently quit. By the time i got there it ran fine. If you dont have softwere to plug in just check the high psi line i belive you need over 500 lbs psi for the injectors to fire. Turned out to be a bad psi regulator.
The very first thing the Cat ET will tell you is "verify the condition of the oil" even if it's full, old thin oil can cause problems. So far I've seen the ET be both amazing and totally pointless. That psi switch Rare SS mentioned is pretty cheap and seems to fail often, but with the ET I ran through the whole series of tests, checking the wire harness, verifying inputs, attaching a gauge and confirming psi and I reached a step that just said " replace psi switch". Basically test, test, test, oh forget it, just throw the cheaper part at it. As for the amazing part, I had a 3126 that sort of hunted for an idle speed, I serviced it and ran overhead adjustment, still nothing, then another tech said "I think there's an update for that". So we went online, found new "flash files" loaded them into the ECM, and when the truck fired up it ran totally smooth! I had never actually seen a computer fix a problem before, usually they just point it out.
Ahh the ole 3126 hunting idle, before Cat came out with a reflash for that problem we used to change a parameter... Can`t quite remember which one off the top of my head.. if i saw the config list i could remember. Idle drift variation rings a bell but im not sure. You could also bump the idle up or down by 50 rpm and that would also clear it up. It was something in the programming that glitched with that particular idle setting. Heui engines like clean oil. Used to get a fair amount of trucks in for service with engine running complaints or in the extreme cases a no start and the cause was lack of service. Cat had a service letter out in.. `99 or `00 suggesting that if a truck came in for a long cranking condition in cold weather and all diag tests came back normal to run 10w-30 oil in it. Took care of the extended cranking in 9 out of 10 trucks. Of course plugging them in at night would fix 10 out of 10, but we cant expect a company driver to do that can we
You can test HEUI pumps and injectors without ET. If you go to the back of the high pressure oil pump on the top or the side of the engine depending on whether the engine is a V8 orI6 you can plumb into the outlet port with a pressure guage and test the pressure. This has been better to trust in than the ET readout because we learned the expensive way after replacing a HEUI pump for a cut oring on an injector. On the V engines you can test the pump and for oil leaking past the injectors the same way because there is two ports on the back of the pump. All it takes is some o-rong faced plugs and a hydraulic test fitting. It is worth saving $4000 in replacing a good high pressure pump for an o-ring.
Whoa, that's very interesting truckdoctor, you must expound on this method if you don't mind. Do you mean disconnect the outlet line and connect a gauge? Or, tee into outlet line with a gauge? And the testing leakage of injector o-rings, how's that work? Sounds like some very good information. BTW, you wouldn't happen to work for Diamond Diesel in Reno would ya?
Early HUEI were POO.....but after the CAT Service Letter Upgrades (Software & Squirters) on our site they are genuinely trouble free (3126E, 3408E & 3412E). This may not be easier than your method but I used to just cut open a Fuel Filter, Squeeze the Paper of Diesel then Look for the Carbon. Few TEST's we used to run to give us a quick check of the system Issue was:- * Dissconnect the Duetsch Connector at the IAPCV (Injection Actuation Pressure Control Valve) and try and start it. This made the HUEI Pump go to FULL Swash Plate angle during start up. There was also Plugs for the Compensator Valve that raised the IAP at Start Up. Usually this made it obvious whether it was Pump or Squirter. * Pull the Tappet Covers off and turn your "Crank Without Inject" switch on and turn Engine over for 30 Seconds. Watch the Oil Loss from the "Tell Tale" hole on the side of the Squirter. Big Loss Equals "Puffed" Squirters......$$$$.
I'm sorry willie59, I haven't been on the forum for a while. On the V series engines you can install a guage on one of the outlet ports and leave the other port connected to the opposite head. Crank the engine over and the guage should show standby pressure. If it doesn't then move the guage to the opposite port and reconnect the other head. Crank the engine over again and recheck the pressure. If you have pressure on one side and not the other, then it's a cut oring or it's not holding pressure in the head. If you have no pressure on either port when you switch heads then the HEUI pump is bad. I haven't had to test an inline engine yet so I haven't learned how to do the test for that pump yet. I'll try to come up with some pictures to help.
I worked with HEUI engines (well 3408E & 3412E anyway) since they were first introduced in machines in the mid-90's. Somewhere I've got a "HEUI Cheat Sheet" that we knocked up to help service technicians identify a lot of the common problems (like a cut seal on an HP injector line) very simply. Let me see if I can find it. And I'll echo other posters here that HEUI's like clean oil.
I had something similar happen to me with an '01 F250 w/ a 7.3 PSD. Drove to IL from Az. without issue, then on the way home got all the way into Az just past the NM border and the truck started running rough and then died. I pulled over, and it restarted and we went to take off again, didnt get very far and it died again. Did this about 3 times, until I was able to limp it into a gas station. Its later in the evening and dark. So I start looking around and I dont see anything out of the ordinary. Then I check the oil level. None on the stick. Now Im confused because just a few hundred miles prior in NM I had stopped for fuel and checked the oil and it was perfect. Luckily I have towing coverage and my wifes stepfather owns a towing company. We call them up, and they come get us. In the meantime Im still looking around on the truck and then I spot it, oil all down the passenger side of the truck. Awesome. We finally get home and the next day I start going over the truck. I pressure wash the whole thing and fill it with oil. It runs perfect and I let it warm up, then I notice oil puking out of the dipstick...not good. So I shut the truck off and start trying to figure out why. The culprit? well some months prior I installed an EGR catch can and diverted the EGR hose out of the air intake and into a vented catch can then out the back of the truck. Well when I stopped in NM for fuel, I opened the lid of the catch can to see if there was any oil. There wasnt, but there was a faint reside where it had collected on the small filter and run down the can, so as I was checking the oil and wiping the can off with a paper towel, it was windy and I stuck the paper towel inside the lid of the catch can and didnt take it out when I put it back on. It caused the crank case to build so much pressure that it actually pushed the majority of the oil out of the dipstick. I felt like such an idiot for that stunt. But that was my learning experience that if one of these engines loses enough oil, the truck will start running like **** because there isnt enough oil to feed the injectors before the low oil light ever comes on.