I'm being told that the 2010 tier 3 C13 like new lower main bearings at around 8000 hours. My engine is showing high copper readings for the last 750hrs or so. Advice? Thx
First up, what model machine is the C13 installed in.? How high (ppm) is the copper and how many average hours are there on the oil when you change it.? What do the soot numbers look like.? My first thought for copper would be a cooler rather than white metal bearings - that is unless tin & lead have also spiked as well as copper.
The engine is a power unit in a tile plow, which operates at full throttle, like an excavator. It drives a number of large hyd pump. The oil analysis said oil cooler as well. Pb (lead)and Sn(tin) are stable at or near 0. Not sure what Mo is, buts its climbing. Oil changes are done at 250 hrs and we have been on chevron 15w40 for years
Copper jumped from 3 into the 300s for 4 samples now
Soot is stable near 0 too.
No coolant in the engine oil? How about coolant additives?
The test result is saying 0 water, 0 antifreeze. All the other values are stable across the last 1000 hrs. All except the copper, Molybdenum, and Magnesium are climbing too.
Do you keep track of oil consumption .? Preferably measured in litres of oil per 1000 litres of fuel burned or similar.
So what is it about the oil cooler that causes copper to jump?
It doesn't use oil at all. We never top it up, it never goes down. (or up for that matter) Oil stays pretty clean for 250 hrs
Copper leaching from coolers is more typical on new units in my experience. What is the design of the power take off in this particular application. I would be looking for something using yellow metal (eg brass, bronze) bearings. Maybe a pump drive or something. What's the engine serial number?
I'm not familiar with this engine but am wondering if it uses copper injector sleeves. It's late for me now but I've always wondered if the tubes in the coolers vibrate some with the impulses from the engine. Another thought would be some kind of chemical reaction with the additive package in the engine oil.
The tubes in the oil cooler are copper. When the cooler starts to fail copper from the outside of the tubes ends up in the engine oil. If you have oil analyis from Day One look at the copper. It would go up with hours in the first 5-700 hours of operation and would then fall to a steady number. That rise and fall is the initial pickling of the copper tubes by the oil additives. When copper starts to spike a 2nd time, the cooler's on the way out would be my first call. As an aside, what brand of oil are you using..? The reason I ask is that I've seen certain oil brands that caused significant leaching of the copper tubes in the engine oil cooler than others which caused little or no leaching. No copper injector sleeves John, but your question regaridng additive packages is what I referred to above. Some oil brands are way worse than others.
Some idea of the installation this engine is hooked up to would be good.
See post #3.
My bad. Should have clarified - photos of the installation. I'd like to see what's hung on the back of the engine and how it is driven. My 2c. If there is a fcukoff great pump drive on the back of the flywheel housing then why is it lubricated using engine oil.? Surely Shirley it would be far better for it to be separate and filled with an oil specifically designed to lubricate gears & roilling element bearings, e.g. an EP or a TO-4 oil. (As an aside I've had this same argument many times with Hitachi over the implement pump transmission on the big excavators.) Another thought. If the oil lab is the Cat dealer they will only be looking at the engine as an entity. They will have no idea of what it's hooked up to. As far as they are concerned it's an Industrial Engine S/N whatever and their interpretation of the analysis results will only consider "standard" engine components, not anything else that happens to be lubricated by the same engine oil.
Answering some questions and comments. The pump drive gearbox is bolted to the engine, but it is a seperate compartment with gear oil. There is an air gap between the engine and gearbox shaft seals, so oil getting from one the the other is impossible. Nige, i will assemble and all oil samples i have. I use the cat sos system, which i find really easy and convenient to use. Toromont service said cut oil filter open. I did, and its pristine. No metallics visible in bright light at all . They said pull the cooler and inspect, before pulling pan. Engine oil is delo 400 from chevron.
In reverse order. Chevron Delo should not present leaching problems. Did you cut a section out of the filter and squeeze it in a vice before looking in the bottom of the pleats for particles.? A Youtuber called Adept Ape has a good "how to" video on the process. Tormont should be able to supply you a single Acrobat pdf file containing the complete SOS history of the engine if you ask them. It might pay you to pull the oil feed/return lines off from the cooler and try to get a look up through the ports into the cooler core. Does the outside of the copper tubes inside the cooler look pristine, shiny, & smooth..? Or do they look dull and have an external appearance like a metal-eating chipmunk has been at them.?