I'm purchasing a 1979 Hough IH H-80B and waiting for it to be delivered. It has no brakes. I've searched the forum and I cannot find anybody explaining much about the H-80B or a good source for parts. If anybody knows, I could sure use a source. Also, doesn't anybody know if there is a Dresser equivalent to the H-80B? The H-80B uses a Navistar DT466 rated at 200hp. The machine runs well and the engine has been rebuilt. Known issues that I discovered in an inspection: 1) A number of gauges and lights are inoperative but given the state of the wiring, I'm willing to bet those things will wake up if I replace the harness. I have an auto tech background and do not see replacing the harness one wire at a time to be a problem other than my labor. 2) There are no brakes. Air pressure is there with several minor air leaks. I ordered a Sunex 22-ton air jack , as well as a pair of 22-ton jack stands so I will have what I need to pick up an end and remove wheels to get at the hubs. On the other hand, I've read online that many of the braking problems are hydraulic issues and that these things tend to have wheel cylinders that fail. I need a source for parts. 3) The giant seals between the pins and the cylinder rams are failing and need to be replaced to keep the grease in. I need a source for parts. 4) The throttle cable is super stiff. I was thinking of taking it off and measuring it, but don't know how long the equivalent Dresser cable is or model application. I'm wondering if this is like boats: you can be a little long control box cables, but you're SOL if they are too short. Does anybody know of a source for parts for a cross-reference? 5) My seat has sort of dissolved. Any chance of finding the right vintage seat or should I throw down and plan to pop for a universal tractor Sears air seat with 5" of travel? 6) The third function level is disconnected but the top line of the third function is leaking at the four-bolt plate where the line comes through the upper frame. I presume this is because the disconnected spool valve is not centered or does somebody know something I don't know? 7) The bottom of the bucket, while not thin, still needs some grinding out and welding in of replacement plates. I plan to plasma cut out new parts and replace the edge and then go at it with a bunch of 7018 rods to sort it out but I've never done this kind of work before. Any noobie suggestions? 8) The right side door doesn't latch. I dunno why but I haven't looked at it closely either. Thank you ever so much for your time. This is my first really big machine so assume that I'm fairly handy, but ignorant of heavy equipment like this apart from YouTube University (which has nothing service-related on these machines near as I can tell). Here is a photo of the machine I'm purchasing.
They are pretty obsolete For parts try road machinery in Savage, Minnpar may be another source Jensales may have a manual If brake parts are not available pull the wheel cylinder cups and look for equivalents by measurement Cables of any sort can be custom made maybe can get some lube into it though Really a pretty good looking machine
I have the original owner's manual, parts manual and I have on order a Jensales service manual. I'm north Central Minnesota, so General Equipment out of Fargo is my closest Komatsu dealer.
Morse or Teleflex can make the throttle cable, all they need is the length, outer cable diameter and what end fittings. They probably made the original. An auto upholsterer can fix the seat back to new. 0rings for the brakes shouldn't be to much of an issue, take the pistons with the 0 rings still on them to a good clutch and brake shop so they can measure everything up. If the bores need honing then you'll need to give them the new diameters. BTW that looks a very tidy machine.
Did you get a set of forks with it? Pretty unusual to see a quick coupler on a loader of that vintage. It does look good. As far as the Komatsu dealer, a lot of the older stuff is obsolete and no longer available and the prices can be stunning, but I have gotten quite a few things there I couldn’t find anywhere else. If you haven’t already, you might sign up on Komatsu’s site so you can access their parts system and pricing.
Another place to check with for parts might be: http://www.tractorparts.com/ I have not had dealings with them but they at least list Hough Loaders as something they might have something you you! Most of my Hough experience is with the 100 and up models but would guess that the 80 is just a smaller version of one of those. I'd assume the brakes are most likely air over hydraulic so might get lucky if you have a good old time auto repair shop in the area and can match up the hydraulic parts to fix the masters or wheel cylinders. It might have wedge brakes which can be a bit more work but you never know till you get in to them. The seals for the grease on the pins? I assume there you are talking about the big rubber orings. While nice to have they are not super critical as long as you grease on a regular basis and don't work in deep mud or water all the time. Have to agree that in the pictures it does look like a well cared for machine, back in the 1970's most did not look that good in the quarries around here!
Fire away. I own and still run a 74 h90E with a dt 573 engine. I have rebuilt the brake system end to end. Powerclusters, relining the shoes, wheel cylinders etc. I got all of my parts around 8 years ago at FP Smith out west. The orings you speak of on the pins dry up and fall off. ive never replaced a single one and everything still operates as it should. Just keep greasing!
Is this the FP Smith you are referring to?: http://www.fpsmitheq.com/
that's it!!
zlssefi , and everybody, thanks for the input! While I'm waiting on the servioce manual to com in, any tips on diagnosing the no brake on the air over hydraulic braking system?
You have air pressure, is there fluid in the hydraulic master cylinder? have you tried bleeding the wheel cylinders? Do you know the CORRECT FLUID to be used, don't guess on this one.
Good point on the correct fluid. I can only speak to the H100 and up we had and they all used DOT3. Check the filler cap on the masters and there is a good chance it is marked there!
Double check the operators manual too. There's plenty of caps out there with the wrong fluid molded into them. The issue is there are oil based brake systems where the brakes are inside an oil filled compartment, and there are brake fluid (dot 3) based fluids where the leaky cylinders won't go into an oil compartment, and the components aren't that different, enough that I would never trust the cap on it's own.
chances are the masters are dry. On my machine I had to hone and rebuild both masters as well as the air chambers. one master has a real slow leak, takes an entire year to go dry.....that one just gets topped off annually.lol
Thanks for all the replies! Thank you also for the tip on FP Smith. FP Smith has rebuild kits as well as new wheel cylinders, and an exchange program for the master cylinders—all of which gives me a bit of confidence that I can sort out the single biggest problem with this H-80B. At this time I'm still waiting to move the machine over to my place due to the semi we were going to use to haul the lowboy taking a siesta during north-central Minnesota's third winter. I have the operators manual which I will read through. The Parts and manual and some spares (starter bendix and brake pads or shoes—I have not seen them) are still with the payloader and the reprinted service manual that I have on order has yet to arrive. Before committing to buy, I was reading on this forum on mostly H-65 models that the wheel cylinders where a weak point and master cylinders are a weak point. I'm unfamiliar with oil-bathed master cylinders but will pour through the printed material when I get my hands on them. Do the hydraulic brake systems on these machines self bleed air out or is it like cars and light trucks where we can gravity bleed, but then need somebody to pump the brakes while working the bleeder screws to get all the air out?
You refer to these as "oil-bathed" master cylinders. I would reserve that term till you have have read all the manuals for the machine as there is a very good chance the system uses DOT3 brake fluid and if "oil" was put in it it would destroy all rubber parts! Might be a little over simplification but the brakes on this machine are really not much different than say a 1960 Chevy! The biggest difference is on the Chevy your foot push on a peddle that was connected directly to the piston in master cylinder. Where on this Hough the peddle you push is more or less a standard air brake valve and when you push it down air goes to a air chamber attached to the master cylinder. That air cylinder in turn pushes the piston in on the master. Fluid then goes to the wheel cylinders to apply the brakes. What I don't know off top of my head is the style of wheel cylinders this machine has. It could have simple wheel cylinders that push directly on the shoes like that 1960 Chevy or it could have a cylinder that pushes on a wedge and roller assembly that in turn forces the shoes apart. Bleeding procedures are pretty much the same as any car or truck with hydraulic brakes with the one exception being you would need to keep air pressure up while doing it to have air pressure to the foot brake valve. There should be more than likely a bleeder valve at each master cylinder as well as one at each wheel cylinder. When I say "each master" I'm assuming there is one for the front and one for the rear. It is not beyond reason to think there could either be one for the whole machine or even one for each wheel. Or could be something altogether different on your machine! Once you get the manuals if you want to post some pages out of them I'm sure we can give more exact help.
He didn't say "these" are oil bathed cylinders. No reason to believe these are, they're dry brakes right? Just double check, or triple.
Thill tractor parts at Eau Claire has rebuilt parts for those machines too. FWD
Eau Claire, Wisconsin.
That's good to know. I added them to my bookmarks. Thanks, FWD. Sadly, I'm still awaiting delivery which is just as well since it is snowing outside as we continue to suffer through third winter in North-Central Minnesota.
Today I was able to chase the Hough Home. Now comes the hard part: fixing it.
Congrats on getting the machine delivered, looks like it is in very good condition and looks like it's a strong runner. From the looks of it the left front bucket corner needs some welding and a new cutting edge, pretty minor compared to the braking issue. Looking forward to your progress.
I could also make suggestion about the missing lines to the bucket leveler valve, but yes brakes are very important!
Now that the Hough has reached the Tinkerage (since I don't have a shop and just about everything is done outside), I've been looking it over while trying to find out stuff in the parts and service books. I was able to purchase a new diaphragm for the power cluster reservoir (the separate fluid reservoir that feeds both master cylinders, but Hough calls them "power clusters" LOL because they can) on eBay. Here is a photo of that reservoir with some banding I found laying around that I shoved in to try to slow the air leak so we could get rolling. I see the airhorn valve may need rebuilding or replacing since the airhorn's button is stuck on the floor. I'm trying to chase down two mystery airlines that have been terminated improperly running up into the cab. I noticed that both front and rear wipers are air operated and I don't think either is hooked up. What I did see is that this machine appears to be the final version of the H-80B model as it has disk brakes. Here is the right rear which is the only brake that looks like it has tried to be exercised. The disk spec is 11mm or 7/16" and both rear disks appear to be in good shape. The fronts are a little harder for me to get at. I need to get some cinder blocks to hold the bucket up off of the ground for better access to the front axle. Here is the double caliper right front. I can see that at least the two bleeder screws on the bottom are sheered off and the disk looks heavily grooved. I wasn't able to get a wrench on it to check it because of clearance issues (I'm fat). I also see I've got a leak from somewhere in the primary or secondary pump area. It is so messy right now I cannot tell where any of it is coming from but getting the brakes working is my primary goal so all of the air leaks must get squared away before I can look at the hydraulic braking since the system is air over hydraulic for the brakes. One other thing: This Hough has a what looks like a quick-release system for the bucket (the third function hoses are sitting there on the end of the loader), but the quick release is lacking any automated provision for pulling the bottom pins. Does anybody know what is going on here? Thanks for any and all help or encouragement.
Where in MN you at? I'm near Moose Lake. Sounds like you got an interesting project.
Brakes are outboard mounted so that helps but don't use cinder blocks to block the bucket, use wood blocking that can't break or crumble.
old-iron-habit, Although I've only been to Moose Lake twice (once to purchase a 3" mud pump and once to show a hunting refuge), it looks like a nice place. I'm nearly 200 miles to your north-west up near the Paul Bunyan. Welder Dave, My buddy Mark, an iron-worker by trade, when he came over this evening to have a libation and help crawl over this loader also nixed my cinder-block idea for the same reason you're nixxing the idea and told me we need cribbing to hold that loader bucket up—especially so if we're fiddling around lifting one axle or another to pop the wheels off to mess with the calipers and brake pads. The old owner gave me enough new pads to do the four calipers on the front and it took me some time to find out that this system takes DOT3 brake fluid. I ordered in a case of Lucas synthetic since it is good on old rubber parts, and has a slightly longer change-out time. I took a backpack leaf blower to clean the junk out of the cab and Mark and I removed the main access panel in the bottom of the cab to gain better access to the leaky air system. This particular Hough is the last hurrah in their air-hydro brake systems foir the model (that took time to determine as well) and I'm pretty sure this machine needs a new air horn valve. The air horn valve seems stupid, but seemingly the system has two air tanks so that the air horn can honk while also hitting the brakes and all of this is knitted together in the two treddle brake pedals which also feed the air pistons that push on the two "power clusters," the air-over-hydraulic master cylinders. Once I get the leaks puzzled out on the air side, I'm hoping the hydraulic side of the brake system will be just a giant bleeding session and not a tear into and rebuild. I also see on the computer sized photos, I've only got two busted bleeder screws. I don't think that I will have to much trouble getting them out as I think they broke from getting bashed rather than from seazing, but as a former auto tech living in the rust belt, I should be able to drill them, heat them up, and extract what's left of the busted bleeders and replace with new bleeders without need to remove the wheels (which I fear due to a lack of ground handling equipment), and pulling off the calipers. I think I need to find a source for the various sizes of nylon DOT airlines that are running all over. Thankfully the parts book does give the size of the lines as well as the metal fittings the use to attach to the various components. I plan to try to order a new air valve from General Equipment in Fargo this week along with several other part numbers that refused to cross-reference.
I've never seen a caliper quite like that, but every one I've seen has the bleeder screws on the top. Sometimes they have the opening on top and bottom because the caliper fits either side, but only the top one bleeds the air out. If those broken bleeders are the ones you need to get out, clean the mud daubers out of the middle part way down, weld a nut to them getting the bleeder as hot as fast as possible, then turn them out when cool to the touch. I wouldn't mess with the ones on the bottom though, unless you want to drain all the old fluid out?
I believe those are BF Goodrich Off-highway disc brakes, the rights to them I think were taken over by Carlisle in the 1990's. I believe some Cat loaders used them.
I've exhausted the regular dealer for parts I already know I need so I'm about to call obscure parts people this thread has informed me about. I'm trying to figure out what engine manual I need with a remanufactured Serial number of 467TM3U102621 by Springfield Remanufacturing Group. I thought this has a DT466. Can anybody shine some color on this engine?
kshansen , That was a good tip. B.F Goodrich was sold, but a search led me to believe that the Hough H-80B uses B.F. Goodrich off-highway A4 calipers. That search led me to these guys: ABC Caliper rebuilders , which if their website is to believed, has all kinds of caliper-related brake parts. http://airbrakecaliper.com/calipers.html
467T probably is a DT466B engine. A DT466 is the first series, a 467 is the 2nd series or 466B and a 468 is the 3rd series or 466C. The 466C didn't come out until 1985. I have a 468 in my 530 Dresser loader. FWD
Thanks, FWD for the info. I ordered a service manual covering the DT466B so I should have a complete set of manuals minus a parts manual for the motor. In other news, Thill Tractor came through for the throttle cable (which they can make for $250) and bleeder screws ($25 each). After calling all over to find an air horn valve, I finally called my local Fleet Pride, gave them the original part number for the air horn valve, and Fleet Pride quickly cross-referenced it all the way to the newest Bendix foot-operated airhorn valve for $52.00. I also talked to ABC Caliper. They can rebuild my calipers as needed for $350 each. They have no rebuild kits available. Several places can rebuild my power clusters, but after talking to my local Fleet Pride, I think I'd let them take a look at them before sending the power clusters off on adventures in different states. So now I'm waiting on bits to arrive so I can attempt to fix all the air leaks in the hopes the hydraulic side of the brakes isn't roached. Stoked about the throttle cable as the existing cable is stiff enough were my lubing it may not bring it back and in order to lube the throttle cable I need to take it half off anyway, so I figure brand new is better—if for no other reason than new will be easier on my bum right knee.
$25 for bleeder screws? Before I paid that I would go to you local NAPA or what ever good parts store you have near by. I'd bet those are just standard bleeder screws you can get anywhere. Just a quick search on line came up with this" https://www.autopartswarehouse.com/...=mode+matchallany&Nty=1&Nu=part&PN=0+782&VN=0 Something like 63 different versions and many are less than $10.00 each as most are sold as set of 2 or 4!
kshansen , I hear what you're saying but I have no idea what thread pitch, length, or size the bleeders are and don't want to mess with removing one on the machine until I have a spare in my hand. Sort of like $250 for the throttle cable seems high, but until I have greater familiarity with where to get parts, I'm the mulligan. If anything maybe the next guy reading this will benefit from what I learn and report.
Is there a non broken one you can take out to match up?
Agree. Just un screw one and measure, I'd lay money that they are 3/8-24 thread so next question would be the length. Measure over-all and from tip that goes into caliper to the top of threads and you have all that you need. Then screw it back in and go to store or online. If you don't have a thread gauge just try a fine thread 3/8 bolt, if that's too big try a 5/16 fine. Very slight chance they would be metric.
A tour of the problems my Hough H-80B Pay Loader has and my plan to move forward and address those issues and problems. Any tips and suggestions are welcome!
Thyat thing near the end of the video you taped on calling it a "gizmo" is the either injector. Here is a link I found with a picture, your's might be a different brand but gives you the idea: https://www.amazon.com/KATS-33100-Button-Ether-Start/dp/B000I8XDTY Also not to be too fussy but the wipers are air powered not vacuum powered.
Ether.
Sorry about that dang spellchecker got me again, but missed the "Thyat"!
It can be a PIA. LoL
The ether injector. That makes sense. Still waiting for what parts I do have on order to come in, but we nailed the crack shut in the bucket.
I maybe a bit paranoia, but I would have stacked up those blocks in front of the bucket then lifted it up and moved loader forward to set it on the blocks. And also that one block standing on end worried me too along with the guy welding under the bucket with the bucket off the block.
It's not good when a video of a repair is overshadowed by careless or rushed safety practices and there were a few in that video that would get written up if it was on a job site. The bucket probably weighs about a ton by itself.
Nobody was ever under the bucket without the safety cribbing in place. In the event of a sudden burst of a hose on the boom, the safety cribbing would stop the loader and the bucket from curling forward at about 2.5' off of the ground. The single block atop a second, larger pile of cribbing was used to press the crack together while the safety cribbing remained in place. The second pile of cribbing was moved as the crack was welded together from the top-side while the first safety pile of cribbing remained in place. I showed my building up the safety cribbing that was to catch the loader and bucket toward the front of the video. We always had that safety pile of cribbing that would catch the bucket and loader even if the second pile of cribbing that was used to bring the crack together was completely removed. I've added the above note about the safety precautions we took with our cribbing that may not have been clearly shown in the video itself for the sake of brevity to the video's description. We realize that the up-ended block atop a second pile of cribbing was not ideal, but again, that was the best way at hand to bring the crack together.
Did you watch your own video? What exactly was supporting the bucket when it was raised about 8' while you walked under it several times to place cribbing? The crack didn't need to move 10". It clearly shows the welder doing the bottom and finishing the welding with nothing holding the bucket. The bucket doesn't have to fall to the ground to cause serious injury. Glad you got your bucket repaired but as far as safety some of your video shows how not to do things. On a job you can get fired for serious safety violations. When you post video's you have to really think about safety because you never know who will watch them.
Welder Dave, I have nothing to catch the boom while building the safety cribbing pile other than my cat-like reflexes. Again, not ideal but really, it takes five seconds to bleed down those two 6"x42" rams and drop the boom. I don't have a shop or an overhead gantry to hold the boom up, and we needed to move the boom up and down as well as use the curl to close the crack while bracing the lower left of the bucket in multiple stages (which were off-camera—although I show the welding). If you believe there is a better video showing better safety precautions, point me to it.
Kshansen pointed out to build the blocks up drive forward and set the bucket down. Nothing could be easier. Have you ever seen how fast a bucket falls in float position? It would be the same if something let go. The bucket could be blocked up away from where it's being repaired. A 4x4 block based on cribbing in the corner could have pushed the crack together. If something goes terribly wrong you might not get another chance.
Welder Dave, I see your point: Driving up to the cribbing would be ideal, but I could not back up the loader on a slight incline and leave it there without the loader rolling forward again back to the level cement, and rolling forward I've got an inop tractor in the way. This is to say it is a bit of a squeeze. We didn't trust a 4x4 block any more than using a large extension off of a 22-ton air-jack. Instead, Mark upended a foot-long 4"x6" bit of cribbing. Meanwhile, the throttle cable and bleeders showed up today, and yup, I certainly got taken. Its a $95.00 throttle cable with no ends and the bleeders appear to be 10x1, nothing special.
Welder Dave, Kshansen, et al Forgot to say, what I will do in the next video in this series is state that I should have rolled the machine up to the cribbing in the last video.
So you're saying the loader could free wheel and you never blocked the wheels? You should watch the Shake hands with Danger Cat video that was posted on here.
Some people just don't realize how fast things can go south.
The parking brake works. Takes five minutes to build up the air to take it off due to various air leaks.
Good grief.
Ok I tried not to respond with more negative thoughts, but.... To me worrying about a crack in the bucket should not be a priority above that of having working brakes! Fix air leaks first then maybe replace the sticking throttle cable then get the service brakes working and lastly worry about the crack in the bucket. Until you have the ability to build and hold air pressure getting the service brakes working and bled is going to be a challenge. And moving the machine or any functions is going to be dangerous if the throttle is hard to move and or sticking. Once you can control throttle and stop the machine accurately then and only then would working on the cutting edge or bucket be of any importance! Believe it or not Dave and myself are not trying to be jerks just trying to save you and any other inexperienced people who may be reading this thread from injuries or death If you really think that it takes 5 seconds for a bucket to lower to the ground you have never seen how fast one will fall if a hose were to fail. I'd bet Dave has seen that happen as I have. You won't have time to say OH! Sh......!
I had an older skid steer that would pop into float fairly easily if you pushed down a little too hard to lower the boom. I had a bucket of clay less than a foot off the ground and was going to lower it more while driving down a slight incline. I hit a bump and it caused my foot to push the peddle a little more. I still have the scar on my forehead from hitting the front of the ROPS. I can only image how fast a boom weighing a few tons would come down.
And even an empty bucket will drop like a ton of lead if one of the hoses were to fail. The boom may come down nice and easy with the oil flowing through the hoses and valve body and back to the tank, but all that controlled flow goes out the window if a line fails.
I think similar to how fast float will drop and in my case it only came down about 6" and catapulted me forward.
I have yet to figure out how to quote somebody on this forum, kshansen , but I agree the brakes are the number one priority but while waiting to get brake parts in, other tasks can be completed. If I wait to do everything in order of importance, little would get done because my free time is spread too thin. Due to Covid19, some of the stuff I ordered shows a delivery time at the end of the month. And I won't know if the tremble pedals are working or if the power clusters are working until I fix the known air leaks and replace the missing airlines. I'd like to get this thing working as fast as possible so I could at the very least shop around for a commercial snow removal contract this coming winter and more importantly in my mind, start bumping over the trees I need to remove on a property I'm taking on a journey.
Well not knowing how you are reading or posting to the forum I can not be too positive about it but on my desktop computer I just look down to the right corner of the box you are reading this in and there are three words and the message #. If you click on the "Like" when the next person reads it there will be a white line near the bottom where it says "so-in-so" "liked this" Now the "+Quote" is a little different. Say if in reading the thread you want to quote and reply to two or more comments but put it all in on post from you then you can just click on that "#Quote" for each posting you are replying to then wen you have them all selected click on the "Reply" in the last one and it should open a box where you can enter your reply. To make it easier for others to follow what you are commenting on I like to highlight and delete any text that is not needed but be sure to not delete the "/QUOTE" in the [ ]'s at the end. Now if you were only wanting to quote from one post you would just click on the "Reply". Again I like to edit out the extra stuff not directly related to you reply like I did for your post when writing this reply!
I'd think you'd want to get some experience before doing commercial snow removal with a large loader. Also make sure there are no hidden issues with the loader. Insurance for snow removal is higher than for dirt work because many things can be hidden by snow. I've seen chunks of concrete curbs and speed bumps ripped out by a loader. Even in a skid steer hitting a raised manhole cover is not a fun experience. You'll need a bolt on cutting edge if you're going to do snow removal. The standard edge would be ruined in a very short time. Not many people use a wheel loader for clearing tree's and brush. Tires are probably a couple thousand a piece and clearing tree's is one of the most dangerous jobs because tree's are unpredictable, especially dead tree's. They can break half way up and fall back on you.
I have experience commercially moving snow, Welder Dave. If I am able to pick-up a commercial job I would try to pick up an Avalanche Optimus pusher plow which is the best I've used on a wheel loader. Trouble is the plow costs more than the wheel loader in a 10' or 12' version.
What did you clear snow with before? You'd need a lot of work to justify a box pusher. A bucket is also good if the snow has to be hauled away.
Does anybody know of a source for or other machines that used for the spring-loaded J-hooks for the battery boxes on the H80B? Three of them are smashed or missing on my machine. Thank you for any help.
Wheel loaders, smaller field tractors running 12' plows, and skid loaders running 8' pushers. Unless working in a tight space, wheel loaders rule for clearing commercial parking lots and again, the plow I'd purchase costs more than what I have into this H-80B which is fine if I can land a contract that requires clearing snow every two inches. Right now I'm clearing snow residentially.
S Switch it over to the rubber straps they use on the trucks now.
Or spend some time here: https://www.mcmaster.com/latches/draw-locks-and-latches/ I'd be surprised if you could not find something there! I'd start with the Draw latches in the upper left corner but there are many different ones of other styles like the "Weather-Resistant Draw Latches"
Early GMC trucks with tilt hoods have a similar latch. Newer ones are rubber like in the link above. Spaenaur may have something too. https://spaenaur.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Automotive-Catch-Plates-L91.pdf
Neither McMaster or Spaenaur panned out for the spring-loaded J-hook anti-rattle fastener. Meanwhile, I'm stall waiting for air brake parts but I attended to the throttle cable this weekend.
While trying to find where the fuel sending unit is located, I realized there is a good two inches of dirt, twigs and leaf litter between the bottom the engine oil pan and the top of the fuel tank. It rained today limiting my fix-it time but I dug out at least two gallons of dirt into an ice cream bucket and there is much more to go. Cleaning that mess up will be tedious. Mental note: let's not run this thing without the access panels installed. Anyway, there is but one reference wire from the sending unit back top the fuel gauge. Sure be nice to get that meter to wake up. Also, I received a new Hour meter that reads in 10,000 hours. It picks up its power from the engine oil pressure meter, so I need to get the engine oil pressure sending unit or wiring sorted out. So far I haven't been able to locate the engine oil meter. I know it is a single wire sending unit, but where is this thing located on a DT-466B??? Everywhere I look there are mysteriously disconnected wires, and bad replacement wiring which is hokey, exposed, and amazing it is even working. Air brake wise, the replacement foot-operated air horn arrived and so I can begin plumbing some airlines back in so as to be able to start mending the air leaks. Toward the goal of fixing the air leaks, does anybody happen to know where shop air can be supplied or the best place to tap in on this Hough H-80B? I picked up some plugs so I can terminate air leaks at the valves (I have loose 1/4" air hoses here and there that I have yet to trace where they were supposed to go) as well as 30' of 1/4 air brake line (it's a start), as well as zip-tie tags (so I can identify the existing air brakes line which is either black or painted yellow). I also have a logically drawn diagram of the air brake system to puzzle from but is small enough to make me squint looking at it. Air from the compressor, to the regulator and to everywhere from there. I need to puzzle out the best way to break down the air brake system in order to understand it. Since the ether system wiring has been cut, I may as well remove what is left. Removing the ether system will hopefully allow me to trace back and remove the wiring thereby simplifying my wiring job on everything else that is necessary until I can replace the ether system with a new one (as well as puzzle out how to get a fuel heater into the system).
Well to plumb in a line in for shop air to test the air system for leaks and operation one of the best places would be to disconnect the line from compressor that feeds the "wet tank". Most air systems have what is called a "wet tank" to give a place for moisture to condense and be drained out before going to the rest of the system. My reasoning for plumbing air in right at the line off the compressor is it would suck to think you got all the leaks fixed to find that the line or fittings in that line had there own problems. Of course this would only work for stationary work on machine, unless you have a very long hose! I would also at that connection install a ball valve to allow you to shut off the air supply to be able to see if there is a slow leak. Build up to 120 psi from shop air, close valve and let set to see if pressure starts going down. I always liked to see a machine sit at least over night without loosing, say 25 psi. Actually recall an old Euclid I worked on that we parked the truck and pulled engine for overhaul and when we came back to install engine it was still showing air pressure on gauge before stating rebuilt engine!
Updates: Still digging for the fuel sending unit. I believe it is on the righthand side forward of what I believe is the governor. Plumbing in a shop airline became an instant problem when the machine didn't follow my airline schematic or the logical drawing of the air system. I wasn't able to get too far into as my sister popped in and she and I got to assembling and hanging a storage cabinet in my garage which chewed up the rest of my day. Anyway, near as I can tell, this thing (whatever it is) is between the wet tank and the compressor. Looks like it has a pressure relief valve on it but I have no idea what I'm looking at. Meanwhile, the compressor also has a bunch of lines coming off of it. My sister interrupted me as I was tagging what was obvious. The black line on the compressor above the painted yellow compressor intake line turns into the blue line above the pressure relief valve going into the whatever-it-is. I wasn't able to confirm a line coming out of the water-it-is runs to the wet tank due to the interruption, but I would like to know what is the black, 1/4" air line coming off of the head of the compressor. Here is a photo of where that 1/4" airline goes. I'd appreciate any help identifying these lines as there is nothing in the service manuals about the compressor lines and again my goal is to locate a good place to tap shop air in, with that ball valve kshansen suggested in his last post.
After looking around the internet, I've determined that the compressor is a Haldex EL740 water-cooled, pulley-driven, 4-bolt Base Mount apparently rated at 7.4 CFM. I have not found any literature on it, but service parts and rebuilds are possible. Me, I'd just like to know what ports are what ports so I can tap in shop air at the compressor or maybe on that whatever-it-is with the safety valve. Open to information and suggestions, Gentlemen. Thanks!
Air drier on the side of your loader the small black lines should go to a air governer somewhere the one on the conpressor causes it to unload or quit building air when air is applied from the governor the one on the bottom of the air drier causes it to purge when the governor reaches cutout pressure http://www.gonefcon.com/trucktcom/brakes_pressure_components.htm its the same system as a truck the governor can be remote mounted like yours looks like or right on the conpressor
Thank you for the theory link, Jonas302. Very helpful! To confirm: 1) The whatever-it-is is a remote-mounted air-dryer. 2) The small line does go to the governor. 3) The discharge and small line both are line pressure? 4) The air dryer's intake is from the compressor's main discharge line. 5) The compressor has an unloader valve which when fed air pressure from the governor, shuts off the intake air. 6) The air dryer has three ports. The air dryer takes in line pressure from the compressors' output/discharge line. The second line is tied into the governor's control pressure to the unloader valve (we'd call that signal pressure in a transmission). The third and final line goes to the wet tank delivering filtered line pressure. If all that is correct, then a good place to tap in with shop pressure and a ball valve to lock-the-pressure-in/close-the-quick-connect would be the intake line of the air dryer which is the same line as the discharge line from the air compressor, correct?
I'm going to say that that compressor is a Bendix Tu-Flow 400 unless some one replaced it over the years. The air dryer would be a Bendix AD-2 #5 The compressor unloader does not shut off the air it actually holds the intake valves open so the compressor stops building air. #6 To save anyone typing out an explanation just open the file I posted below on the AD-1 and AD-2 air dryers A good source of information on air systems I would suggest this: https://www.bendixvrc.com/itemDisplay.asp?documentID=6390 Sure it has more than you need but I would get it anyhow as it's free!
At first, I also thought the compressor was a Bendix 400, but under closer inspection, it is a Haldex EL740. My photos of what I have above are not the best, but the cylinder jug is separate, with 6 bolts holding it to the crankcase, and on the top of the cylinder head there is a protrusion on the backside where the unloader airline comes in from the governor. The photo below is flipped backward for whatever reason. At any rate, I have no service documentation that tells me what air compressor would have been offered as OEM equipment so I'll run with the idea that if you're right and OEM was a Bendix, that this compressor was swapped in with the rebuilt DT466B engine. Good call the this Bendix AD-2! It looks like I can add a shop air tap on the forward side of the air dryer (both sides are stamped "compressor") so this afternoon I'm going to pull the plug and chase around locally hoping I can get the bits I to make a shop air tap possible (as well as the ability to add air the tires as needed in the field).
I found out more about the AD-1 and AD-2 air dryers.
Took two days due to distractions but I got the shop air tap installed.
Kshansen, It appears that my powers clusters are shelled. I have air leaking through the air pistons into the master cylinders hissing all the way up to the remote reservoir. My power clusters appear to be old Wagner 840 with a 4"x7" air piston. I have not removed them to confirm the master cylinder bore and stroke. I'm being quoted anywhere from $1400 all the way down to $530 each. $1400 gets me OEM rebuilds and $530 gets me an equivalent that is nowadays used on thripple axle trailers and the like and is sold by a company that got tired of trying to track down old Wagner cores. A rebuilt OEM vender has pushed back claiming that the modern equivalent will not work because the master cylinder is different (as in bore and stroke) but the Brake company with the aftermarket solution says that there are only about six different versions of these things, and is confident of the sizing given the known size of the air piston housing. Can your experience shed any light on this? Thanks! Modern equivalent https://www.fleet-products.ca/65-840-air-hydraulic-actuator/ OEM vender https://www.andersonequip.com/web/files/prod/web/parts/PN-KAC_1126328C92.html Auto parts store: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...6f8/brakebest-hd-power-cluster/a88862/2543528
Can't say anything exact but I would be wanting to know the bore of the hydraulic side and the working diameter of the air side to be able to get an idea if the ratios between the original and the replacement were close. Would also need to take into account the stroke of each unit. Also I would be tempted to remove and disassemble at least one of the power clusters to see if there was a chance of just rebuilding yours. As I recall the main seal on the air side is a large oring and seem to recall a felt strip wiper as well. If the can for the air side is not badly rusted there is a chance you could just reseal that part. As for the hydraulic side again if not rusted and it cleans up with a little work with a brake hone there is a good chance you may be able to source the rubber parts from a brake shop. At least it used to be possible to buy the rubber cups or kits for those master cylinders. I'd be interested to know if there is a casting number on the hydraulic cylinder.
The aftermarket company suggested the same: break the cluster down to inspect the master cylinder to confirm. The Master they use has a 7" bore x 1-3/4" diameter. The air cylinder is the same as a 7x4 but not a Wagner. Casting numbers are currently hidden by the mount and it is about to rain for the next four days or I'd take a cluster out to inspect on the bench. At this point I don't have a source for rebuilding parts. I was going to call Wagner today for support but got interrupted at every chance I had to call. Meanwhile, this conversation is ahead of where I'm at in my videos.
I think you have thing a bit mixed up there or I'm just reading it wrong. I would say the hydraulic cylinder(master) would be the 1 3/4 inch bore and the air cylinder would be 7 inch diameter. Just doing a little highschool math tells me that the 7 inch air cylinder has a surface area of 38.48 sq.in. and the 1 3/4 inch master cylinder has a surface area of 2.41 sq.in. Divide those two out and I come up with a 16 to 1 ratio. So at full air pressure of 120 psi a full brake application would result in 1,920 psi going to the brakes. Just wish I had this to work out about ten years ago. We had a local brake shop with one if not the best brake men around he could have redesigned your brakes in a matter of a few minutes in his head. Unfortunately he passed away about 10 years ago. One time we had an old Euclid truck with the most complicated air brake system and he came out and drew up a sketch and a list of parts that gave that truck better brakes than the factory did and it was very inexpensive to boot!
Just found this that might work if your cylinder is not rebuildable https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Master-Cylinder-Piston-Casting/dp/B07LGJ1XMD And if your master cylinder bore is not rusted beyond use it may be worth getting one of these kits to see if the parts match: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/UBP175?searchCategory=c3.s3&searchIndex=Universal And NAPA does list a few others but that one looked close to what I recall Hough/Wagner brakes to use!
The aftermarket clusters are rated at 1400-1900 psi, so your math is spot on. Todd, the fellow I spoke with at Fleet Products up in Canada, seemed very familiar in his power cluster knowledge going so far to explain that they (his brake parts company) came up with Wagner equivalents because they got tired to trying to track down Wagner cores to rebuild. That master cylinder at Amazon looks spot on. Also, one of my friends just told me that he has an acid bath so maybe rebuilding will be the way to go. Rebuilding wise, what do I do to rebuild the air cylinder side? I haven't found any sources for parts. The original part number for just the air cylinder was 1120001C91. The air cylinder measures 4x7" Right now my air cylinders are leaking air into the master cylinders.
First thing on the air side would be to take that ring of bolts out around the end towards the hydraulic master cylinder. There is a spring in there but not a high power spring like on a truck brake chamber that can kill you. Then that "can" should come off pretty easy, might need a gentile tap or two with a rubber hammer. Once that is off you need to see what it looks like on the inside, gouges or rust that can not be cleaned up with a light touch with fine sand paper would be a problem. As I recall those brake chambers were sealed with one or two orings around the piston would need to determine the size of the oring to try to locate a replacement. The two main things I would be interested in would be the ID of the can, think that might be 7 inches the next would be to figure out how thick the oring was originally, say 1/4 inch, 3/8 inch or what ever. The more I think of it that 7 inch air housing may have a lip type seal with a spring in it. That might be difficult to find. I have found three different kit on line but they do not give a size so I have sent emails to them.
Thanks for the leg-work of sending out inquires as well as the tip on what to look for on the air-side of the power cluster. I pulled one of the brake clusters out on Saturday and plan to head out to my garage to split it to determine the diameter of the bore and condition later on Sunday evening.
I broke down the power cluster. Using a grease pencil to highlight the cast lettering, as expected, the Power Cluster is a Wagner. And as we expected the master cylinder is an FE-1099. My luck, of course, is I removed the easy side power cluster, which has light corrosion on the bottom of the master cylinder bore and had not actually failed (so all the air is coming in on the other side), but the air brake cylinder is so rusty that I'd need to take heat to it to break it down or patience and a can of BP Blaster. Right now the shell isn't moving and all the bolts came out rather rusted from the shell. The master has different guts than the NAPA link, and specifically a very good fine screen just ahead of the primary piston that limits any sediments from traveling down to the calipers (I was happy to see this as I have a total of six calipers on four disk brakes). The diameter of the bore is 1-3/4" and on this specif master cylinder in the photos, a light hone and an acid bath would sort it with new rubber parts. The other side is worse if my visual inspection has any bearing on its condition.
I'm seeming to be hitting a brick wall at this end! There is another guy on the form BAM1968 who may have a similar brake chamber off a Cat machine, used but possibly repairable but right now I have no idea if it is of the same size as the one on your Hough. I did reply to him and suggested he contact you directly. I have also found at least one other Cat machine that uses these style brake chambers but again Cat is not being helpful with giving and information on the sizes of the master and air chambers. No idea of how to get that information.
I was working on a crane truck a couple of days ago and noticed it had those Wagner chambers for the brakes. Didn't pay ant attention to the size of them. These were just the air end of what is on the Hough. It is only 5 or 6 years old so thay are still used just have to find some information on them. I have some work to do on that this coming weekend. I will take note of what make the crane is.
That is what can be so frustrating, knowing that say a company like Wagner makes a product but then because of contracts with the manufacturer they sell the the product to they can not or will not provide information to anyone else. I'd be willing to bet that there are many different applications for the air end "can" used in this and your crane application. Be it pushing on a brake lever or a plunger in a hydraulic master cylinder. I do recall back before "Maxi" brakes came out many trucks used air cans just like those to push on the slack adjusters for the service brakes.
So the replacement from Wagner appears to be an A840. https://amzn.to/3go4XPB Although the masters likely can be rebuilt, in light of the fact that a replacement air cylinder cannot be found (yet we know they are still made by Wagner, sigh), I'm going to go with the aftermarket solution: if for no other reason, the cost savings, but also to update from an obsolete power cluster. After texting photos and speaking with Todd at Fleet Products up in Canada, Todd affirmed their master cylinder has the same sediment filter as well as the check valve that my master cylinder has. I'll need to modify the mounting of the new power clusters, but I should have plenty of space to do that. Master cylinder piston part number FC6433 The guts of the Wagner FE1099 with the check valve at the end of the spring and the sediment filter at the end of the piston. Here is the link to the retrofit power-cluster: https://www.fleet-products.ca/65-840-air-hydraulic-actuator/ At this point I still do not know if the treadle pedals work or the condition of the six Goodrich A4 brake calipers. Once I've plumbed in the new power clusters, I'm hoping a good flushing of brake fluid will get the A4 calipers working as I dread taking off the wheels because I can only imagine the fiddle-factor of trying to lift them with my tractor's loader and whatever is involved with rigging to keep the wheel straight.
Well nice thing about the air side of that new system is that just about any place that even knows what an air brake is will have the diaphragms sitting on the shelf. I think I would ask Tod if he could give you the part number for the kit to rebuild the hydraulic ends of the powerclusters he will be selling you so if 5-10 years from now you need to rebuild them you will have that information at hand.
I wholeheartedly agree that parts for rebuilding is a good idea but when I asked, Fleet Products claimed that they do not have a parts kit for a rebuild, just the individual parts. I will attempt to document what things are when I receive the parts. Meanwhile, I have what I hope are some easy questions that I've been trying to find out answers to in my service books. What hydraulic oil does this thing take? What engine oil does a DT466B like? Axle oil? Trans oil? Does this PayLoader like Molly-based grease in the joints or should I get a different grease for servicing? I've been loading my G.Gun grease gun with Moly-graph grease for my tractor. Here are Amazon links to what I've been using. Moly-Graph Grease https://amzn.to/2TMi8jO and the G-Gun https://amzn.to/2zEjlTa For whatever reason, finding the oil type and weight is like a State secret in the service manuals.
I have some additional questions about loose lines that are either disconnected or capped on my Pay Loader. A short video covers four loose lines I'm wondering about.
At :30 seconds in video that hose and the fitting does look like a quick connect. You say that and another hose are hooked to an oil gauge. Do those gages have and thing on them to say what they are or are there some little symbols on them? A picture of the gauges may give a hint as to what they are or even what the pressure ratings are on them. That line that looks like it goes up to the top of radiator on the right side of the machine, can you feel up in there to know if it is connected to anything? Any chance you could reach up there with your cell phone and get a picture of where it is connected? Are there any more hoses of that size going to the radiator area? If so are they hooked to something? As for the hose coming from the air governor. I can't make out which port of the governor it is connected to. In the picture above the ports I have put the red line through are all connected inside and anyone of them would be connected to a hose going to the air tank to tell the governor how much air pressure is in the tank. The other ports would be plugged. Now the ports inline with the green line are the ports for the output from governor to the unloader valve in the compressor. Also as you have a aftermarket air dryer on the other side of the machine it would also be connected to one of the ports with the green line, very possible that the line to the unloader and the line to the air dryer would be connected to the same port with a tee. The port with the blue star is a vent that 90% of the time is just open to the air it needs to be able to let off pressure for the governor to work. It would help to know where the hose in question is connected to the governor to make any kind of guess what it's purpose is or was. If someone who did not understand how things worked was in on the engine swap they may have just left it there and capped it because it was leaking. Many times you will find things on a machine of that age were someone just capped things they had no idea why they were there and just wanted to get it running fast!
Understand that until a few days ago, all of this was buried under dirt in the engine bay. Here are two photos of the hose running down to the Governer. The extra hose that is capped off is the right-hand one. Looking straight down. The extra hose here is the lefthand one. Pictures didn't turn out in the cab, but my gauges without homes are two 0-300PSI fluid-filled gages. I'm thinking trans pressure and oil pressure thinking that the main engine oil gage is inop and they added one at some point, then disconnected it for whatever reason??? Anyway, the two female quick disconnects would need to be replaced. In the next photo, I'm wondering if this is a male quick disconnect. If it is, I'm unfamiliar with the style. This photo is right above the transmission. Trying to take pictures of the hose running to the rear end led to the discovery of yet another (unrelated to the mystery hose) gizmo behind the right rear work light (which is popped out in the next photo). Behind the gizmo, we can see the mystery hose, and what looks like a crimped end on that same hose, but I couldn't tell what was going on in the dark. BTW, I still have not located where the sending unit is for the fuel tank which is driving me batty trying to find it!
So if I'm seeing it right in these two pictures both those hoses are hooked to the same port? That is the port that should be connected to the "dry" air tank assuming there is one tank that the compressor main outlet hooks to or the outlet from your air dryer. Not real sure why they would have a second hose connected there unless for some reason they were using it as a source of air pressure for something else. This photo is right above the transmission. That is a very common style of quick connect for pressure gauges. And the hose near there has the female connector for it. As both appear to have been unused for many years I would not suggest trying to use them unless you really need to as there is a good chance you will end up with a plugged gauge and or leaking connection. Personally if there was no operating problem with the transmission I would not bother with a pressure gauge in that system. That gizmo seen through the round hole is the air cylinder and linkage for a shutter system that controls the air flow through the radiator core. It strikes me as a bit strange as I don't recall any Hough loaders using shutters on the radiator. A couple concerns I would have due to the very obvious lack of care this machine has had as seen by the accumulation of dirt everywhere first would be how plugged is the radiator core both inside where the coolant flows as well as the out side where the air needs to pass to draw off the heat. Second would be are the vanes of the shutter system stuck closed or partially closed? If they are closed it could result in the engine over heating even in cold weather. Also Just had an idea that air cylinder in the above picture would have a hose going from the end you can't see in the picture to a shutterstat(a temperature controlled air valve) mounted somewhere in the coolant system. It could be mounted on the engine or maybe even somewhere in the radiator. This could be where the mystery air hose is connected! Just had a thought that that is what the capped off hose at the air governor was for, the air supply to the shutterstat. I'm attaching a picture off Ebay of a shutterstat that a machine of the H80's vintage might have used, ignore the Ford tag! Not visible in picture but on either side of the part that says D-24000 Shuterstat there would be 1/8 inch pipe holes to connect air hoses. The copper slug down at the bottom is submerged in the coolant to sense the temperature and open or close tha air valve inside. That's about all I have for now. I think the two biggest things I would suggest would be to get working brakes, both service brakes and parking brake and next would be clean, clean, clean.
Thanks, kshansen! I want to take a pressure washer to this thing but it is also sitting on my clean concrete driveway surrounded by 300-year-old pines that I'm not keen on contaminating. Anyway, I'm in agreement with brakes, then cleaning then fixing other stuff. The shutter thing makes sense and there is an airline running to it. Right now the shutters are (painted) open. Will likely have more thoughts later on in the day.
Have you managed to get a service manual or maybe a parts book for this machine? Preferably both but either one would be a very good investment.
I have every manual I can get my hands on. Two different operators manuals, a generic service manual for the DT466, a reprint of the service book and the original 1979 Parts Book. But I've also got a machine with a lot of stuff bypassed and everything has been repainted yellow. Discouragingly, the OEM harness has been cut in a number of places leaving abandoned wires. I'm slowly working through it. Sadly, I let the batteries go flat so yesterday I didn't get anything done because I need to start and articulate the machine to get at stuff. Today the new brake boosters arrived and the batteries are charged and I have a socket coming so I can just plug in a 24v battery charger rather than disconnect the in series 12v 4D batteries and charge them individually. I did remove the ether injection which left me one mystery wire that I intend to find out if it is normally hot.
Well I would not want to make any definite statements about that machine, but.... if it is the wire that was connected to the ether injector it should not be hot unless the button in cab is pushed. That of course assumes the button is even there and the last person to touch wiring in cab knew what they were doing. Guess for right now I would suggest that any wire that is not hooked up be taped off real good! As for charging batteries with a 12 volt charger there is no need to disconnect them. Just hook the charger directly to the terminals on one battery then once that one is charged connect to the terminals on the other battery. And actually if you have two separate 12 volt battery chargers you could hook one charger to the right battery and one to the left battery. Only possible problem is if the two chargers drew more amps than the breaker they were connected to or the extension cord being used. If you have two big 12 volt chargers you can always plug them into outlets on two different breakers.
Apparently I have a draw as the power was off. Both batteries were stones and I used an old dumb charger to get some juice in and two smart chargers to finish the charge. Right now I'm trying to get the air horn valve out which is a PITA for a fused back fat guy like myself. I also found specs for lubes. Sorta. I need help translating some of these. NLGI 2 Lithium extreme pressure grease on all things greasable. Anybody got a brand experience or preference? Hydraulics takes SAE 10 hydro fluid (that seems light is that right? Its the same stuff we put into pontoon lifts and dump trailers???). The engine wants straight weight oil. 30W for summer, 10W for cooler, and 20W cut with 10% Kerosene for cold. Can I run a 10W30 or a 5W40 Rotella year-round? GL-5 SAE 140 or 85W140 gear oil in the steering gear housing intermediate Drive Block and axles can take just about any GL5 rated blended gear oil. 80W-90, SAE 85W-140 Transmission takes I.H. "smooth shift" Dexron, ??? Does anybody know what the modern equivalent is? The transmission is an International Harvester S-700. And the brakes is Dot 3.
Well oil questions can cause a lot of opinions but my thoughts from what we used at the quarry would be as follows: Grease NLGI2? I'd say any brand name grease should be fine. To me it's more important that it is used than what brand! Hydraulic Oil? I would probably go with a name brand AW46 oil. Which is slightly heavier than a straight SAE10 Engine oil? Again name brand oil. Like Rotella 15W-40 Gear oil? GL-5 85W90 Dexron is another story. Some reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEXRON From what I understand something like this: https://www.castrol.com/en_cr/ccsa/...ransmission-fluids.html#tab_transmax-dex-merc Should be good. If you have a commercial oil supplier it would be good to check with them.
NLGI2 Grease, I guess I need to find something in a pail. Is Shell's 5W-40 T6 too thin for the engine? I have gallons of that on hand. I called General Equipment in Fargo, asking about IH "smooth shift" Dexron and spoke with Ryan. Ryan confirmed that I should not use modern Dexron as those are all formulated for cars and light trucks. He suggested an Allison C4 spec oil going on to suggest Shell Spirax S4 TXM or generic Chevron 1000 series. That said, Ryan wasn't exactly certain what the cross-reference is. I am, heading into town to my farm-centric NAPA to ask questions. While trying to find the tranny oil, I found online publications. Hough H80B Parts manual. http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/HOUGH_H80B_WHEEL_LOADER_3U0001601_UP.pdf Down at the bottom of page, parts manuals for piles of Hough equipment. http://www.steeringclutch.com/transmissiondiscsIHHOUGHKOMATSU.htm
I think I'd talk to an equipment dealer before I went to Napa for advice on oil for heavy equipment transmissions. I think the Shell Spirax is a universal tractor fluid. Good stuff but may not be equivalent for what your loader requires.
Not sure why you would need to get the grease in a pail we had Mobil NLGI-2 in tubes I'm sure other do too! Guess I would check with Shell Oil Company to see what they say. I only ever used 15W40 in the equipment at the quarry as that is what the Mobil Rep. agreed to with the corporate level maintenance guy. Well all I know is Dexron was the recommended oil for use in that transmission when it was new. I do know that there are many different versions of Dexron nowadays as you can read in the link I posted. I guess if it was mine I would get in touch with a real oil company rep. and not take to word of someone who may or may not know anything about oil. I would make sure the rep is made aware that the Dexron that was suggested for this application was referring to Dexron as it was known in the early 1970's! That could be a critical point in what is suggested.
Follow-up. I called Dexron. I called Shell Oil. I called and emailed Lubesoil. I called Case IH. I called Komatsu. I called my local Komatsu dealer. I called my local Case IH dealer. The results are. Probably be able to run universal transmission oil like a 10W. Maybe use an Allison C4 spec oil going on to suggest Shell Spirax S4 TXM or generic Chevron 1000 series as noted above. Case IH dealer said they used Case TCH or Type A Automatic Transmission Fluid, Hytran MAT3506 but I could not confirm the Case W80 wheel loader uses the same S-700 transmission as my Hough H80-B. Lubesoil said that Dexron II was the spec oil at the time. I presume this is Dexron II type C since Dexron first came out in 1971. I'm still not certain what to run given that the transmission was designed before Dexron II came along. However, if I understand this right, there are Dexron II (E) equivalents. https://www.ravenol.de/en/product-r...atic-transmissions-1/ravenol-atf-dexron-ii-e/ Using Allison's website, I found a filter for C4 spec only oils. https://fdlrd.swri.org/Allison/ApprovedFluidsList.aspx?Id=1
After a lot of fiddling, universal trans-hydro fluid rated for Hy-Tran gets the nod. In other words, the squirt juice found everywhere, but locally for me at my NAPA store. Meanwhile, my Pay Loader Videos are catching up to where our discussion is at.
I thought I'd catch this thread up with where I'm at with sorting out the Hough H80B Pay Loader I purchased. While there is a lot more work ahead of me, the brakes are working again. My governor seems like it is regulating way too high as the working pressure is way out of spec on the dash pressure gauge and I am frequently hearing what I presume is the safety pressure valve dumping. Anybody know if the governor can be adjusted or should I seek a new one? Also, if anybody could shed some light on what that air brake "burping noise is at 25:50ish in the video, I'd sure appreciate hearing what you have to share. Finally, my thanks and gratitude to those helpful people who took the time to share their knowledge and experience with me earlier this year in this thread. Anyway here is the video scheduled to go live at 6:00 AM central time today.
Quick question: When I fixed the brakes the governor pressure was reading off the charts and I could hear what I believe is the relief valve dumping. I believe the adjustment for governor pressure is under the black plastic cap in the photo but my question is at what pressure should I adjust it down to? 120PSI?
Yes, 120 is good.
Correct and if my old mind is working right this morning that adjusting screw works opposite to what you might think. In other words turn screw in to lower pressure and out to raise pressure. And if the pressure does not change you may have a problem in the unloaders of the compressor, but we will worry about that later. If you do need help on that end post a good picture of the compressor.
Thank you gentlemen for confirming what I thought was the right working pressure. kshansen, your memory is correct, turning the screw in lowered the pressure. The pressure didn't change until I exercised the brakes, then went to the new regulated pressure. I don't have a PSI gauge, but set the pressure to the top of the "in the green" on the dash air brake pressure gauge, which I presume the green range is from 90 to 120 PSI. Had a mini heart attack yesterday after setting the governor pressure when I tried to move the machine and it wouldn't budge forward or backward. Fearing the F700 transmission had taken a siesta while I wasn't looking, I checked that the parking brake was off and since I have not set up brake hydraulic reservoir, I checked both master cylinders to confirm they were not stacking brake fluid and passively applying the brakes. Then I remembered the lefthand brake pedal knocks the transmission out of gear, but that seemed unlikely because the machine was "trying to move" but couldn't. Finally, I checked the transmission fluid level, and long story short given that nothing appears to be leaking, I don't know how the machine ever moved in the first place in the last video because I was three gallons of Hy-Tran low. Took me a couple of hours to grease everything up today with my G-gun.
Question: Since I have a third function on my wheel loader, does anybody happen to know if an old Dresser 4-in-1 bucket would pin onto my Hough H80B quick attach coupler? The bucket below is the right size at 96"
I spoke with Rockland, the makers of my quick coupler today. They shared that they sold Hough the brackets for the hang-type quick connect but the spacing was Hough only. So unless I stumble on Hough buckets, I'm going to need to modify everything. Meanwhile, I figured out that the multipurpose bucket above came off of an IH250c crawler loader and it is a 2.5-yard bucket. The price is right on the bucket and I figured I could drop my existing bucket and using cardboard, make patterns I could then cut out of plate and weld onto the to doner bucket to make that bucket work on my Hough H80B. So thinking along these lines, I started to look at my quick coupler and I quickly realized something is missing, but I don't know what. There appears to be a chunk of wood spacing the lower pins and holding them in. I'm like, huh? Does anybody know what is supposed to be going on here? Though I spoke with Rockland who made the quick coupler, they couldn't tell me anything about it or provide any photos or diagrams as to what the coupler is supposed to look like or how it functions. Does anybody have any light to shine on this coupler? So here is the backside of my bucket for context. Now looking straight down, there appears to be a block of wood occupying the place where I imagine some sort of mechanism once resided. There is a cover on the backside held on by one bolt (off-camera) on the top left and wrapping around the top partially covering the block of wood. There also appears to be nothing to do with the right-side lower bucket pin in this photo. Then over on the left side, there is this! Again, where are the twiddly bits to quick attach the pins? You can also see that one bolt for the cover on the right side of the photo. What am I missing here, fellas?
So I'll take a stab at this. The unit had a hydraulic cylinder in there originally, a cylinder that kinda looks like a double ended power steering cylinder, the pins that hold the bucket are pinned to the end of the cylinder usually with roll pins, the cylinder probably went bad, original owner didn't want to or could not get it fixed, removed it, took the pins that slide through the bucket off, wedged the pins in place with whatever he had, hence the wood and the bolt, and put the covers back on to hold it all together. I would bet dollars to donuts that if you remove the covers that's what you'll find. I'm sure with some measuring you could eventually find a replacement cylinder. JRB and others make similar setups, minus the wood and the bolt....
Although it would not be a double ended cylinder.
Kinda like this, you can kinda see the cylinder in the pics. Maybe yours wasn't set up the same way, but I'm thinking that's the way they "fixed" it
Tags and TheWelder, thanks for the explanation. Although I haven't had the opportunity to fire the loader up, move it, and look closer, your explanation makes sense. Meanwhile, since I have all kinds of inside time, I have not been able to locate the proper description of the type of cylinder I need. I understand that I need a double rod (as in two separate rods), duplex cylinder but I keep coming up with nada on searches just trying to identify the correct terminology to describe the type of cylinder I need where booth ends extend or retract. Anybody know the right terminology for the cylinder I'm looking for or know where to get them? As an aside, am I crazy to think about modding a 2.75 yard multipurpose bucket to work on my Hough for stumping?
You don't need both ends to retract. A cylinder if the right length of stroke is more important. If you look at the picture with the stud coming off the pin it has a washer to stop that pin when it is disengaged. Should be the same setup on the other side.
If I understand, it is a double acting cylinder with a pin on the butt end, and the "box photo" I showed earlier shows the washer that stops the ram on the left side, making the entire cylinder move top the left effectively pulling the rightside pin that is pinned to the bottom of the cylinder? So the right stroke and length of the cylinder are critical. Am I getting it?
That is how quite a few are setup. A couple of manufacturers have a setup with a cylinder for each pin. With the cylinder you don't need the stops to keep the pins from pulling out to far. I think Car use one cylinder on their skidsteers, Deere if I remember right has cylinders on their hitch. Look at a few machines it will give you some ideas.
Question for people used to operating these bigger loaders: When my bucket is curled down and I lower the loader while the engine is idling, the bucket curls up under the weight of the loader. However, when I throttle up, I can hold the weight of the entire loader up off of the ground with the bucket curled down. I'm wondering if I have some cylinder leakage or if this is normal. I don't have a good way to cap the curl cylinder extend port to test if there is a leak past the piston so I'm asking folks with more experience than I about this. In other news, the 4-in-1 bucket followed me home.
Toward getting the radiator shutter system working again, does anybody happen to know what temperature shutterstat I should use? I cannot locate a part number for my Navistar 427 (466B), but see Shutterstats in 140°F, 165°F and 185°F opening temperatures. Also, does anybody recall the normal operating temperature of these Navistar engines? I'm asking because it is commonplace in my area for us to toss the stock thermostat in autos and light trucks and install either a 185°F or 195°F thermostats so that the vehicle doesn't cool itself back down while idling and go unto the warm-up fuel map (not an issue for the Hough) while the occupants keep the heater on a high level in cold temps. At this point I don't even know what temp the thermostat my engine is running, and so I'd to know the regular temperature operating range to best match up the shutter system. Thanks!
We have a couple of H65 s and used to own a H80. Great machines, but brakes needed work on all of them. I've had really good luck with getting any air-brake parts rebuilt by "Precision Rebuilders" in St Clair Missouri. I think it cost around $450 a piece to get powerclusters rebuilt. We've gotten some cables from komastu (which I believe is supposed to handle the parts), however, We've had better luck just having our Napa store just send in our old cables to get new ones made. We've always used dot 3 bake fluid. Good Luck!!
I popped a front tire and ended up replacing the front tires with new tires. I was going to replace the rears as well, but my mobile tire guy with the world's biggest tire manipulator explained that he didn't think he could get the tires off of my rear after spending six hours working on the front two tires because of corrosion (and watching, the guy worked for it too, so no joke PITA). Anyway, I measured as best as I could the diameter of the new tires at 16'-3.5" and the diameter of the old rear tires at 16'-6" wondering if I'm going to bind up the drivetrain roading the loader to my different jobs I have for it. According to this article, I should be okay as I have a 2-1/2", roughly 60mm or 1.27% difference in diameter from axle to axle. https://www.tirereview.com/matching-tires-on-all-axles/ However, according to fellow member, Chris5500, the spec should be 40mm or less rear to front . If I stayed off-road, I wouldn't be too concerned, but I need to road from one property to another. Anybody know the actual spec. from International-Hough for my H80B?
I think tire pressure can help to keep diameters close to some degree. Not sure if tires can be changed leaving rims on. I know they can on some machines.
The fronts got changed with the rims on the loader, but that was using the loader to lift the axle off of the ground. The tire truck was literally pushing my loader side to side fighting corrosion holding the wheel flanges on and with them, the tires. The rear would be picked up and put on either cribbing or jack stands and so any pushing would knock the loader off. Thus the need to remove the rear wheels entirely and bring them in to a tire machine. I have the tools to do this, but am not super eager since these tires are messing with my Miller Multimatic 255 welder fund. Heh.
I don't know the specs. There are thousands of loaders with mismatched tires and they survive just fine. There's more torque on the driveline every time it's turned than what you'll have going down the road.
I operated an Allis Chambers TL 545 in the early 70's and drove it nearly everywhere with mismatched front to back tyres. Things were good until it snapped the posts in a planetary hub and stuffed some gears. No air freight in those day so a 6 month wait for parts. The owner rebuild all the required parts the conceded I was correct when bitching about mismatched tyres. It was transported after that.
Question: can I safely jack up the rear of my Hough H80B on the rear pumpkin using a 22-ton jack, or are there jacking points on the machine? Also, can I support the machine using cribbing on the axles? I cannot find the answer in my owner's manual. Thanks!
Don't know about loaders but semi's are lifted by the diff. I think cribbing the axle is fine. It supports the machine in operation.
That's what I am thinking but on different OEM's I do see specific jack points on their frames. I cannot find anything like that for my Hough.
I posted this in the general section hoping to cast a bigger net but so far I've received no answers. See this gismo. The gismo is connected to the oil/coolant heat exchanger on my 1979 Hough H80B that is powered by a DT466B and the gismo is currently leaking anti-freeze. The gismo has both coolant and oil lines running into it. I have all the OEM parts books but cannot locate the part number or the equivalent part. In fact, my correct for the year chassis and engine parts books don't show that it is part of the OEM coolant system. I'm assuming that it functions as a temperature regulator, and if not stock, that it functioned to keep everything warm operating here in northern Minnesota during the winter. I want to fix, rebuild or replace it with something that does the same job but don't know where to begin looking apart from a couple of fruitless google searches. Your help is greatly appreciated!
My Hough project continues with my thanks to those who offered suggestions, advice and answered my questions!
I've learned that old equipment is a money pit, but still fun!
What appears to be an air shift solenoid on the transmission popped and was leaking air excessively but it got plugged up with an old leather glove in the field. I'll puzzle that problem out as well as the rest of the stuff yet to fix next time it comes home. Meanwhile, I got a little work out of the old girl.
Does that leak air all the time or only when you have brakes applied with left brake peddle?
Hey kshansen, it is leaking all the time. It is mounted atop of the transmission on the lefthand side, the leak is from directly underneath (where I can hear it, but not see it) and is leaking so excessively that my parking brake kicked on once I got rolling. I wedged in an old leather glove and it stopped leaking so off I went. This may be coincidental, but after a six-mile road drive into town, as I was pulling into my gas station in the land of vacationers (meaning super busy) I was rolling forward, stomping on the brakes, and I shifted the tranny into reverse to avoid beaning a God bless 'em who didn't see the 12' tall giant, yellow machine pulling into the diesel pump. I noticed the valve was leaking right after that. The machine is still at the site with all the trees in the last video so I don't have photos of the valve yet.
Time to get a slip tank for the truck. Might save some money if you can get off road diesel. Maybe just an O-ring or something blew. Don't think it's a coincidence after you put it in reverse. How fast were you rolling?
My rear steering pins and bushings are worn. Since OEM parts are drying up, I thought I'd share for the benefit of others what sizes things need to be machined to make new ones. Stock part numbers are 158773H1 for the bushings and the pin's part number is 8790344C1. I believe the front steering pins and bushings share the same inner and outer diameter but are longer. The rear pins pins are 2.000" W by 6.000" long. I'm going with 4130 because I need to weld flags to the top of the pins to hold them in place. The bushings are made from manganese-bronze (which is slightly magnetic) so we're using 863 high-strength bearing bronze tube stock. The bushings are 2.000" long and we're machining a 0.005 clearance on the I.D. for 2.005" I.D. The OEM bushings have an O.D of 2.375" and we're machining an interference fit of 0.001" to fit in the steering cylinder eyelets so the bushings have an I.D. of 2.376" thereby requiring to be thrown into a freezer to install. If you can find them, you might be able to get away with a 51mm x 70mm generic bushing remembering that as you do so, all the tolerances are cumulative and you'll get a clunk in the steering pretty easy with 0.015 tolerance on all four corners.
Turns out that on the shifter valve for the transmission, there is a little, brass, pneumatic plunger valve that under air pressure kicks out 1" and apparently holds the transmission in gear with air supplied by one of the two treadle brake pedals. Near as I can tell (because I haven't fixed it yet), when the treadle pedal is hit, the pedal bleeds air pressure to the valve, and a return spring in the valve pushes the piston back, knocking the transmission into neutral. Anyway, that little air valve is used in everything from Hough, International, Dresser, and Komatsu, but is now difficult to find. I found one but don't have the right air fitting yet to connect it all up.
It works the other way. Air pressure knocks the transmission out of gear.
This will get interesting fast since there appears to be air pressure on that valve all the time. If valve works the way you're suggesting, then my leftmost treadle pedal is screwing up. I guess I'll find out when I install the valve and the new pins and bushings onto the rear of the steering cylinders, start the machine up and try to shift it into gear!
Should be simple to disconnect the line that is putting air into the valve on the transmission and cap it off to test to see if transmission now works. Maybe you have the left foot brake valve connected wrong? I know there are many ports on those valve and getting one hose connected to the wrong port can cause major headaches!
My Hough Pay Loader got put to work this summer doing odd jobs that went largely unrecorded. Now with the arrival of fall, my Hough came home and since I do not have a heated shop, I've scrambled to catch up with overdue maintenance as well as to continue to replace damaged or missing parts. I'm hoping that this spring I can tackle popping the engine cover off and going after several soft hydraulic hoses, fixing a weird, aftermarket coolant heater leak, getting the shutter-stat on the radiator working again for cold weather, as well as reconstructing the entire rear wiring harness.