Hi, first post here, but I have searched the forums over the years for information. I am a small owner operator, used to run a small crew but now it just me. Many of the contractors I work for (electricians, concrete contractors) will supply labor when I am working for them, it is a good system that keeps both of our costs down. Most of my work is bid work, and the small amount of hourly work I do is usually for one piece of equipment. I was wondering what others have done as far as charging for two pieces of equipment on a job with one operator when working hourly. Thanks Jim
I am kind of in the same boat, I used to run a crew but now most of my work is just me and my equipment. Since I can only operate one piece of equipment at a time I just charge an hourly rate for the piece of equipment that I am running. It is rare that I will have more than one piece of equipment on a jobsite. On those occasions when I do, I may charge a transport charge fore each piece. Tim
Yep just use the hour meter on your machine. We keep a book in each machine and write the hours from the start to finish. Takes the guess work out of it.
Just to complicate the question, ( ), how about if both pieces are working at the same time, or if one is a rental unit? For instance, loading a truck; the truck sits while you're loading it, but if it wasn't there, the machine wouldn't have anything to do, so it is actually in use, even though you're not behind the wheel. If you had a driver in it, you'd bill for the whole time the truck was there, right? How about spreading and compacting fill, but you've rented the roller? Are you supposed to eat the cost of the hours the roller sits while you're on the dozer? Because the rental house isn't going to charge you a half day for that. (Digger spends so much time bringing order to the chaos here, that sometimes he's compelled to bring chaos to the order.)
Thankfully most of my work is bid work, so I use the equipment that is going to do the job the most efficiently. I am in a situation now where I am working for a contractor who is working for a homeowner doing a job by the hour, and he wants me to bring in every attachment and machine I own, but doesn't want to pay for time spent loading/hauling equipment and so forth. There have been instances where having two pieces of equipment there speed things up a little, say an hour on the skidsteer, (246 with Loegering tracked undercarriage) versus two or three hours on trackhoe to move a pile of dirt, but that might be the only time the skidsteer is used that day, so they get the benefit of having a second piece of equipment there for one hour of time, and by having it there I am actually making less then I would without it. I don't think it is fair to charge full time on both machines by any means, but there has to be a fiar way to charge for having two machines there. In the past on a job where I had multiple machines and it was by the hour I charged the applicable rental rates on the machines (what I would pay to rent them by the day, but they were my machines) and then charged an hourly rate for myself to cover my time and fuel, which turned out very well in that case, I was happy, homeowner was happy. I hate working by the hour because I have invested heavily in things to make the job go faster, but with hourly rates what they are I would go broke or just break even working that way. Jim
I have seen were the owner charges for main tractor being used all day by the hour then the 2nd tractor charge them what it costs to rent the machine for a day to use it. It's still cheaper for them verses if they had to pay for 2 tractors and 2 operators all day. Same with attachments, they ware out to, something has to pay for maintenance. :my2c
Sounds like you're not charging enough per hour, or people are not willing to pay what a job is worth if you're working by the hour. All the work I do, except for some random trenching for the rural water district(which is by the foot for 8' trench) is hourly. Frankly, I don't much care for bid work. Too many around here will do it for nothing and if I'm going to do it for nothing the machines will sit in the yard and make no money. If you're competing against reputable operations and your customers trust you, you should be able to make the same or more working by the hour. If you're making less on a bid job than you would if it was by the hour your bid was too low.
Interesting question Digger242j, I always tell my customer that if I have to rent attachments or machines, that cost gets passed on to them + 20% for my trouble. The dump truck is an interesting dilemma, I have never had a dump truck. However I have had a dump trailer. When I had smaller skid steers, it was common for me to haul my skid out to the jobsite in the dump trailer. If the job is 25 or more miles from home I would charge a transport fee based on the mileage over 25 miles. If I used the dump trailer on the job, hauling materials or trash, I charged mileage. My mileage fee is based on the cost to operate the truck/trailer combination plus a wage for me. Now that I think about it some, I am inclined to add the cost of owning (fixed costs) the truck/trailer combo (or dump truck) into the hourly rate for the skid steer. Then I could recover the operating costs (including wages) of the truck and trailer in the transport fee. Right now it is a moot point for me as the skid I have now won't fit in the dump trailer. I am considering buying a larger dump trailer as it has proven a handy combination for me. Tim
Yair . . . This question has been thrashed out before and I must say I still don't understand the problem . . . things must be different in the 'States. The concept of charging for an item of plant just because it was on site wouldn't fly with me. I knew a bloke who had a tip truck and a workshop set up on the front of a large tag trailer he used to shift his skid . . . he worked hourly rate only and charged himself out if he was in the truck, on the skid or doing some welding for another contractor on the site. I agree absolutely with Shimmy1's sentiments about hourly rate. As far as I know the only way to quote a job is to estimate the hours it will take and then multiply it by the hourly rate of the machine . . . plus a contingency. If this contingency is stretched to the extent that on any given job you can make considerably more than the hourly rate then the rate is too low and/or you are operating in a very forgiving market. A job costs what it costs and, given a suitable machine, charged out at a fair hourly rate with a competent operator that's all that you should need to do to provide a service to the client and a profit for yourself. Cheers.
I usually charge $150 float charge for each piece of equipment I bring, does anybody else do this? I have a 200clc and 850k dozer
This issue for me only arises with one contractor I work for, he does mostly hourly work, so I work hourly also. He knows what machines I have and usually wants me to bring in multiple pieces, even when they aren't really needed, or when bringing in a second machine will save a couple of hours over using what is on site. Most often this is the case, I will have my 305ECR on a job that requires mostly trench work, ie placing pipe or basement repair, there will be some part of the job that the 246 would do in an hour compared to three with the hoe. But he only wants to pay for one hour on the skidsteer, my point is that if I didn't have a skidsteer he would have to rent one or just let me do the work with the hoe, but dragging a second piece in to save time means that I make less while using more equipment. Jim
when i have multiple pieces of equipment and i am the only operator i charge each machines working hours which equate to me sitting in it, and for moving the equipment the travel time as i call it i charge a min 1 hour of machine rate or more if i have to travel a longer distance. my min charge for a job that i am only at for a day is 4 hrs plus travel time for example my backhoe my min rate is 300, 240+60 for the one hour of travel time although the travel time can vary but its always min 1 hour. now if i show up to a job and i work every day 8 hours at that one location buts lets say the last day i only work 2 hours ill charge just those 2 hours. mind you any machine i bring i charge the min even if it does not get used to cover the cost associated with moving it even if it does not get used
When I worked for a small contractor we did a lot of hourly work. He would charge for mobilization for each machine,and we would charge for the most expensive machine on job all day. So if they wanted an excavator on site (I think he charged 150hr) but I only ran it 2 hours, and ran a backhoe (I think 80hr) the rest of day we charged for the excavator all day.
Charging for mobilizing the machines is fair. Plus, you should get a little more since you have to clean up and put back every machine you bring to the job. If you bring the whole shop to the job site but only get paid for one machine, how many hours of work go unpaid?
Sounds like a classic case of taking advantage of the poor sucker. I hope I'm not offending you. This guy knows you are going to do whatever it takes to get the job. In order for you to be more profitable, you are either going to have to charge more mobilization, get a trailer you can haul both pieces on, or tell him he needs to buy a skidder. Fairly straightforward solution.
This is my scale for mobilization: 0-10 mi $50 10-20 $75 over 20 $4/mi. I have been thinking about going to $75, $100, and $5/mile, but with fuel coming down like it is I'll probably have to leave it for another year.
This is an interesting subject for us little guys who are one man bands. Not sure if I do it "right" or "wrong" but here is the way I work it all out. On my little machines I charge $75 an hour from the time I back off the trailer til I load with a three hour minimum. That doesn't matter if I gotta get out for ten minutes and use a shovel to cut out a corner or if I'm bouncing between the CTL and mini ex. If I throw the single axle dump truck in and I'm the only operator on site then I bill it in at half rate or $25 an hour instead of $50, if I have a site driver for it then it goes to $50 an hour and while it's hauling I'll do other things like clean up, prep the next cut, backfill, grade, whatever. Every machine I bring on the job gets paid at least the three hour minimum even if it sets in the street all day. That helps cover the transport, tags, insurance, cost. On my 953 I bill it a full day the first day its on site, plus $250 transport (that's what my lowbedder charges me to move it in and out) then from there it gets billed by the hour after the first day. With rented equipment the customer pays whatever it costs me to rent, plus fuel or other expenses, plus the transport on big stuff I cant haul, plus my wage to operate at $35 an hour. So a weeks rental looks like this $1500 (Rental) + $1000 (Fuel) + $250 (transport) + $1400 (wages)= $4150 for the week. These numbers are just an example and don't really reflect a particular machine. Interesting discussion John
Well if you're the only man on the job it is hard to say that both pieces are working at the same time. If you're loading a truck and jumping back in it to go dump then I would say you could justify charging for that truck all day, but if you're dumping 5 miles away the hoe/loaders hr meter should be off until you return. If the dump site is on site that's different. Charging by the load could solve this problem. As far as the rental thing, that's a tough spot. A lot of times if it is a scenario where we are doing a large site we charge by the ton or yard. exp - $1 a ton to compact.
Sure. But what costs are you figuring in when you come up with how much to charge per load? I think the point here is that at the end of the job, you put a number on a piece of paper and hand it to the customer. The discussion here is focused on how to arrive at that number, in a manner that's fair to both you and the customer. It's interesting to see the different ways we approach the question...
I don't do much hourly work, mostly hard bid. I can make more money on small commercial site jobs where the equipment is floated to and stays there for a month or so. Usually there are change orders that add to the till as most of these sites are infill sites with all sorts of unforeseen conditions. When I do hourly work and two pieces of iron are needed for the job but only one operator, I charge a 4 hour min. for every day and mob for each piece in and out. Then charge for every hour worked per day per piece above the 4 hour minimum. So everyday the piece of iron is on the job, each one gets 4 hours whether they're used or not. Might not work for everyone but that's how I do it.
This is an interesting approach. I, too, struggle sometimes how to charge. But, I'm not sure my customers would approve of me charging them 12 hrs for the hoe if I only ran it 3 and was in the loader the rest of the day. This always seems to be a judgement call for me. If I'm hauling dirt out of a borrow site for fill, then I charge a per yard loading fee, usually $.50 to $.75 per yard. The truck, if onsite, is hourly for the whole time, if it's going offsite, then I have a price schedule depending on mileage. If I'm cutting grade for a building or grain bin site, the truck basically stays the same, but I charge the hourly rate on the hoe. How I arrive at that number is I will time a few loads with truck and take the average times how many loads and subtract that from total time with hoe. I have never been a fan of using the hour meter for hours because I will not shut the engine off as soon as bucket hits the ground. If I'm gone less than five minutes, I'll just let the machine idle. Over five, I'll turn on the auto stop and let it do its thing. Interestingly enough, your figure for compaction is pretty close to me. $1.50/yd³ for level and grade, $1.50/per for compaction.
Man, I wish I could get away with that price schedule. Would you mind sharing some of your hourly rates? Maybe you guys can't get as much per hour, but at the end of the day we're still close? My 210 is $160, 3 yd³ loader is $125, CTL gets $105, truck $135/hr, or roughly $10/loaded mile up to 5, $9 up to 10, $8 up to 20, etc. My minimum I like to run for is $2/running mile.
Customers sometimes balk at minimum charges on equipment, I charge four hours plus an hour transport as a minimum on mine, but I also give the customer the option of going with the current rental rate for the piece of equipment plus an hourly rate, with no minimum, for myself. Funny thing is that the second way is almost always more money, but people feel like they aren't getting 'taken'.
[/QUOTE] Absolutely, might have to make a round or 2 to figure what you can get per mile so that it comes out right..
Now we're getting somewhere. So, you charge what the daily rental rate is for the machine plus an hourly rate? Two points: First, what do you use for the rental rate? Straight daily, weekly divided by 5, monthly divided by 21, or some other figure? Only reason I ask is rental rates around here are usually established on the 10 hour day, 4 day week, 3 week month schedule. Second, the hourly rate you mention, is that a machine rate, operator rate, or combination?
I use the daily rate, but do not include insurance or transportation, then charge an hourly rate, used to be $45/hr, now it is $50/hr, for me/fuel/etc. My normal minimum is $400 for CAT 305.5, $500 for CAT 305ECR and 246 with Loegering undercarriage. Minimum for Daewoo solar55 and D5 hystat is $625 and for the 312CL it is $750. Many times I will adjust these rates down a little if it is a repeat customer or if it is a really small job. Attachments are extra. 95% of the time I just bid the job so both parties know what to expect. Jim
Does anybody complain about $150/hr on the 120? Around here, $145 is going rate for 200 class, I have been getting away with $160 because I've been around for 25 yrs and my customers know what they're getting. That being said, some customers do have my competition do some things, usually because I'm usually so busy I can't get be at everyone's door Monday morning.
No complaints really, but again I almost never work by the hour, people here usually want a bid price and I am competitive in that arena.
Next question, are your customers usually getting multiple bids, or are they asking you for a price and then that's what you do it for.