Just overhauled a JD 8310 with Powertech 8.1 with nearly 10K hours and starting to burn oil; new everything but fuel system. I started and did a quick run test for leaks and checkover then turned to owner for loaded field break in. He drove 8 miles home, had a few minor leaks to fix, then hitched to plow and headed out. Made it a short distance out of yard when it started blowing white smoke and pushing coolant out. Pulled head tonight and found this on less than an hour run time. Wow.
Sorry, nothing sucks more than to do a job to have it come back on you . I feel your pain. Was it an in chassis overhaul? Were any of the timing gears out and maybe not timed correctly (especially to the injection pump) on assembly? With 10K hours were the injectors replaced? Picture leads me to believe the injection pump was never removed to be checked out??? Keep us posted as to what you find the root cause to be. Great pics too!
Does it have oil cooling jets? My mentor told me about his first engine job of inframing a bulldozer and neglecting to aim the jets properly and it melted down while testing it.
That looks like classic pre-detonation.
Timing or the injectors are no bueno.. Take a look at the gov on the pump.. there should be a "plug" in the bumpout, closest to the engine side. IF its open.. someone has tampered w/ the fueling.
U didn't put the injectors in "backwards" did u.?? Don't they have a "ball" to center them?
There isn't an even or consistent spray pattern across ANY of the pistons. That says a lot to me.
I KNOW.. He said, NEW EVERYTHING BUT the fuel system.. didn't say weather or not he had'm checked.??
Yeah, the heart of the system got nothing. I'de bet the fuel injectors are carbon fouled so bad that they are incapable of atomizing the fuel.
Yer gonna make me say arent you?? Looks like a classic case of, somebody takin a bath & putting on dirty socks..!!! We haven't heard from Texan so we don't know the WHOLE story yet.. Thing is> he's no slouch & this isn't his 1st bbq..
Ya'll got me on the injectors! They are located by the return outlet fitting so they were all installed at least back in the right orientation. The Bosch mechanical pump has a plug and play power booster on it but owner says it was turned off on return to his shop. It is a total out of frame as the pan is the front end of the tractor so we're going today to pull it back out. I've rebuilt many diesels before just for wear and as a result, only if one was giving some signs of problems did we work on the injectors. BUT, they weren't a high horse engine (DT414's, perkins, smaller JD's etc). I even did one of these same engines in an 8400 five or six years ago without touching the fuel system and it is still running perfectly. As far as timing goes, I didn't remove the dynamic timing gear on pump and was able to do retime and install without changing anything. The gear teeth are probably 3/8" wide so a tooth off would I think make a huge difference and it ran as smooth going out initially as it drove into the shop for teardown. Regarding spray pattern, take a closer look at #1. They all have an 8 point pattern and the burn through is right where on jet sprays. It does appear they were getting a raw stream of fuel shot at them. On the cooling jets, there are no parts listings from JD and Trinity casting cleaned the block and didn't send anything loose back so I didn't check (an oversght).
I've had no training on what I do so I may not know to check some things that can cause a problem. Is it normal operating procedure to do an injector rebuild around this hour mark on high demand machinery that isn't showing any problems? Another odd point is #1 has a been hot, 2 and 3 are fine, 4 is destroyed, 5 is okay, and 6 is about to go. NEVER having seen anything like this, I'm hoping for injectors being the problem.
Years ago I did an in-frame on a 6-71. Started and ran fine except for white smoke. Looked and checked for a couple of days. Finally pulled the engine and put it on a stand. Took the head and oil pan off then turned it upside down. Filled each of the pistons with solvent and found a pin hole in one. Turned out to be a new, but defective OEM part. Just a casting flaw.
Natural gas or diesel, when you have severe detonation damage caused by uneven fuel distribution, it occurs when used under very heavy load for a long time. 8 miles home and short trip out of shop is difficult for me to believe.
That's ok Tex. Those of us that have been in the business forever are familiar with this type of thing because it happens to us all. Here is another thought that I had seen happen...………..When you installed the piston rings, did you stagger the rings gaps 180 degrees apart? I had an engine one time do something similar and found out upon disassembly that all the rings gaps were lined up together. When the engine strokes on compression it would create a hot spot at the gaps and when the injector fired off a lot of the fuel followed the air down the side of the piston. Its worth checking anyways.
Vetech; I'm always careful to stagger the rings as I've read about oil consumption if ring gaps are aligned. It's a three ring piston so I split them 3 ways around. Check; owner is a good friend and he made it home, we went out and fixed a couple leaks, checked valve clearance, noticed a flutter in the exhaust but he later dealt with a failing fuel line compression seal and said it seemed to clear up. It never made it to the field. All this damage was in less than an hour and no heavy loading. I had considered dyno breaking it in, but as he can actually load it and at over 200 hp would have been a bit much to keep dyno cool, I opted to let him.
Looks like injectors to me also, did you notice more smoke than usual?
Jrgreene; Just oil smoke from unseated rings.
All ya gotta do is get the injectors checked.. it'll save you a bunch of questions.. Do "U" have to eat the O/H Texan.??
In Post #11 u say>it has a plug & play power booster on the pump.. What the hell is THAT.??
Power "chip", converter box to boost the pump, etc. He says it was turned off, but that was my first question also. Otherwise, what could have changed to burn up new pistons in short order? I don't think piston oil jets would have done it without significant load. Did the head get set on the injectors to damage some of them? How would it go that many hours and then burn up the new pistons without something changing.
I’ve seen stuck injectors and dirty injectors do this, they tend to not spray, but just dump raw fuel, but the times I’ve seen it, there was considerable smoke, even at idle. Other than that, timing would be my next thought, which has also been mentioned already. Any scarring on the piston skirts?
Notice the fire ring on head gasket at each cylinder, should be shiny with that many hours on it. No seal.
Yeah, OP stated "pushing coolant out" something is amiss here. If the pump wasn't pulled I highly doubt injectors would be the culprit either. I saw a 3406A do that once in a 14 mile test drive... the guy that assembled the engine used the wrong plug in the flywheel housing for a timing pin hole (the big plug for Allison flex plate bolts) the pistons looked just like these. I'm not sure but that plug got him about 45 degrees BTDC. He said the pyro was reading low. and when I went into it, the front Jake was on the rear... "FRONT" in big cast letters
Crap in holes head bolts bottomed out, maybe ?
I think there is more to this story... Leaky head gasket wont burn out pistons like that.
I couldn’t see the piston pic to good on my phone.. looked at it on the iPad, I agree, I don’t see coolant doing that. Looks to me like a ton of fuel dumped in, or wayyyyyyy out of time
Well those pistons are partially broken from coolant, you notice it worked over the shallow side. Those pistons fractured and the pieces beat the crap out of the top. When pistons burn its normally pin point near the center, those have sharp edges where they broke. Coolant doesn't compress worth a ****.
Just sharing thoughts and some experience. Decided to skip that and just say it was hot in the chambers. Damage to multiple cylinders. Could it have had an air lock in the cooling system? Could it have been out of time? It has a programmer to increase HP. The dealer or manufacturer would not warranty that. Why should you? Yes the injectors should have been checked or the customer have been given the option. That puts you in a bit of a pickle now. Go have the injectors tested before you commit to any warranty. Just put them off a bit and get it done. Then make your decision. I fixed something like that once that I should not have. Found out latter after that guy did everybody he could and filled bankruptcy.
I rebuilt a 3406B that had been cranked up and the pistons had that same look, but it had run several hundred thousand miles.
Not sure yet. It is a 'Diesel Performance' module. Injectors are going to my local shop soon as I get them out.
I started a job years ago where my trial period consisting of helping install a D9G engine that someone else rebuilt. They said they ran it in on a dyno but the thing wouldn't start. The guy used ether to get it going and it sat and idled for a bit and then started making noise. The fella kept running it trying to figure out what was going wrong when the heavy knocking started. I made him shut it down as this was a Friday afternoon told him to go home. We were in Black Diamond, Washington and he lived in Eugene, Oregon. I told him when he left to figure on pulling heads first thing on Monday. Come Monday at noon we had the rear head off and the pistons looked just like those. I told him the only thing that can do that is timing. I looked in the book and found the D353 timed at the back of the engine on the flywheel and it wasn't hard to do it wrong. The guy pulled the flywheel and sure enough it was off a bunch. He reset the timing proper this time and was going to put the head back on when I stopped him. We nearly came to blows when I told him that engine was coming back out for new liners and pistons at the least. One of the owners heard us from down at the main office and came up half expecting blood, guts and a police call. Anyway he sent the guy home and I got to pull the engine by myself. I'm not saying your engine was timed wrong. It just looks like the same kind of damage.
Top of head has hose back to fill tank to bleed air. The burn through looked like a plasma torch had blown through it and was right where a spray jet was shooting. The piston is structurally intact and underside is shiny new. The spray pattern is uniform on all pistons and the machining rings in the fire bowl of #4 are perfect. Again, this engine had LESS than an hour run time since startup. I coppercoated the gasket and used all new torque to yield bolts (60 ft/lbs, then 90 90 90 degrees) on a cabinet cleaned block. As we had to grind the crank and check block for funny bearing wear, the pump did come off but not the adjustable drive hub and the gear is keyed to the shaft. I went by a detailed video on this engine for using the timing pin behind drive gear with crank and cam aligned for #1. One thing dawned on me tonight is the cam gear had spalling on the teeth and when replaced, I was told to use a pen marked tooth or valley on the new gear as it had 2 timing marks on it instead of the one on old (I'll have to refresh details with owner in morning). My dealings have mostly been with Roosa's, CAV's and Model 100 Bosch's which a FEW degrees off they either won't start of run like ****. This animal may have some wiggle room on static timing that bit me. I wonder now could Trinity have screwed up on the new gear marks?? Sleeves have some shallow vertical line scuffing. Injectors were removed before head came off as they are in the way of a line of head bolts. I couldn't get a good pic to upload but one valve in #3 hole(will have to verify I or E) was heat blued around half of it.
More pics of #4
Little things keep coming to mind. He complained of and I could hear it also, a consistent chirp towards the front of engine. Maybe like gas burner knocking from spark advance? After some heat in engine, upon killing and restarting, there was a slow rollover spinup then start like advanced gasser timing which I attributed to the batteries and a new tight engine. After starting it ran fine though, good power curve, little smoke...
I guess I'm old and don't know my *** from a hole in the ground anymore.
If it was a gas motor, I would have said air leak...
Ha Mister! Don't know if you are talking to me but I was the next post after yours. I mean no disrespect and was just sharing my experience and understanding. Started on some of these forums looking for information and help. This sight and its people have been great! Do not really understand how what you are saying works? Would they not be also mentioning lose of coolant? Well likely did not look at that I suppose. Would it not smoke very badly?
I wasn't really talking to anyone, I was talking out loud to myself .
This business with diesels and coolant has been impre$$ed upon me .... what little experience I have but the diesel engine mechanics have said a little bit of coolant will ruin the oil. If it gets into the combustion chamber or cylinder vicinity it causes consumed pistons rapidly. On a gasoline engine it seems to not be such a demising factor. Total believer in the pressure test of the cooling system on a diesel cooling system to prove integrity, especially since I have learned how the head gasket and/or liner seals leaking can cost big money and down time.
I debated posting this photo of one of our Series 60 14L that was rebuilt by a Freightliner dealer in Idaho. It only had 20,000 on it when it let go on a hard pull up Cabbage Grade I-84. It was under full boost when the coolant system pressurized exploded the side of the radiator and grenade'd. Covered under warranty it determined to have three low liners in it by the dealer who warranted the engine with a full reman. One of our tractors. Shrapnel she is.
I meant my post was before, fat fingers or head. Thanks for being nice on the reply. I am not contradicting you just questing because I do not quite understand. My thoughts are that engine has been ran hot. Weather from a cooling system problem and or excessive fuel - timing. Then the cylinders with the hot spots in the engine and or with bad injector spray patterns burn the pistons?
I meant my post was before, fat fingers or head. Thanks for being nice on the reply. I am not contradicting you just questing because I do not quite understand. My thoughts are that engine has been ran hot. Weather from a cooling system problem and or excessive fuel. Then the cylinders with the hot spots in the engine and or with bad injector spray patterns burn the pistons? Is it possible the engine could have a timing advance problem. Does not do the things I associate with incorrect timing but ends up a few degrees advanced on the top end. Not enough to sound wrong but enough not cause heat?
Was the head reconditioned? Were the cups replaced? Have you taken a fuel sample off the bottom of the tank?
If you've ever experienced molten aluminum hitting a concrete floor, you know just how violently hot aluminum reacts to the tiniest bit of moisture. I used to work in an aluminum foundry. When a crucible or mold ran over and spilled on the floor the guys would just take off running and deal with the carnage later. Needless to say that floor had a lot of patches!
I finally got to dive into and found I am ONE pump tooth off. How this happened was I already had the head on but the front timing cover was still off. Not having a crank alignment pin that I have been able to find, I had the alignment marks for the cam so I believed perfectly bottomed in the crank gear valley. I then used a timing hole through the pump drive hub which would align with a hole in a tang on the back side. This saved trying to get 4 super tight torx screws loose holding the drive gear on as others had already stripped elsewhere... The flywheel pic is where #1 TDC is in relation to where the pump is supposed to be at TDC. Piston is coming up where pump is at TDC mark. Now for the $$$ question, would this amount of off and advanced timing be bad enough to do the damage done in such a short amount of unloaded run time?
Doing a eyeball angle check with an angle finder, it appears to be around 20 degrees off. IH 414 and 436 Bosch AMBAC 100 pumps are pointer set 18 before TDC. I must assume these Bosch pumps are internally advanced with the timing mark set on zero?
One last thing to add, on original teardown after nearly 10K hours, #6 piston had some crown edge damage to it, similar to current #6 but on the opposite side. Could this have been a perfect storm of an underlying fuel problem that was exacerbated by the advanced timing?
Too much advance will consume everything. I once in frames an old R model Mack. Everything was fine. Customer chose to not repair the leaking injection pump. A week later it's back, destroyed. Long story short, took it to a wrecking yard and had them put on a used pump. iirc , it was 16 or 18* hot. The best part was this yahoo tried to sue us. We wound up repairing the carnage and parting ways for good. I misread what you had posted. I thought it said the pump was not disturbed.
On that engine.. the engine is set to TDC & the advance is set in the pump..
So this means when the pump is advanced we are getting 40ish degrees of timing advance? Yikes Perhaps worse, at full load we're stuck at 20 degrees of advance.
Owner took head back to Trinity Casting and they were surprised to see it back. After explaining what had happened, he was told that kind of damage should have happened over several hundred hours, even with the advance, not in less than one. Their opinion is most of the damage is from 2 failing injectors. I got the set into my fuel shop this morning and hopefully will get a prognosis on them soon.
I have seen this on a 4 cyl. power-tech engine that was in a air compressor. Started great no exhaust smoke and no abnormal combustion noises. Originally had the fuel injection pump off for repair, pump drive gear was moved around to retrieve flat washer that fell, when removing the retaining but. Bottom line is don’t drop nut or washer. When you have gear puller in place to pop gear loose, DO NOT remove it. Puller in place will prevent drive gear from getting out of mesh of the gear that drives it. Had to remove front gear case to retime the injection pump gear. This engine ran for about 45 minutes, then we shut it off. Then when we tried to restart it, it wouldn’t restart due to low compression, because of the piston crowns were damaged simular to the pics above. I never would have guessed that moving that gear out of mesh with the other would have caused this, especially the way that engine ran and sounded.
Same here Twister. I would have thought it would have sounded way different being that far off time.
We always have pump and injectors checked over every time an engine is pulled apart, even with a few hours on them, to have them bench tested and they find nothing wrong is really cheap insurance for peace of mind in my opinion. In all the engines we've ever overhauled and had the pumps and injectors checked over, only a few ever came back where they didn't find a thing wrong with something fuel related, even with a few hundred hours on them, if I didn't make a mistake reading your post, this engine had 10k hours on it?? if that was the case the fuel system would have been the fist thing I'd have sent in to be checked over, with this low sulfur fuel today, I'm not sure I've had any engine fuel system make it 10k hours without an issue of some sort, especially the injectors.