Perhaps this isn't the right forum for these types of project threads. Grew up farming and we were always building or modifying something. Guess these days there's not enough time on the biggers farms. Enough money to buy whats needed,and the smaller farms have plenty of used equipment to choose from. Much of our equipment is unique. Easier or cheaper to build it the way we want. Times have changed. Farm kids I meet these days have no idea how to do this stuff. It's either bought or hired done.
Not only has farming changed,the new equipment is getting too complicated to work on.In my opinoin computers and electronics don't mix well with dir,water,fertilizer and chemicals !! Like the old saying KISS (keep it simple stupid).
I think that it has a lot to do with the cost of labor. When I was a kid labor was thought of as free if you owned the farm. It was nothing to spend days building or rebuilding some piece of equipment. That was a lot of time that could have been spent getting a crop in the ground or out of the field etc. I think it's a lot harder to get farm labor and the realization that "Time is Money" has set in.
I agree Gadgetman,times have changed.There is still some modifying & fabricating that goes on.Allot of the newer equipment is not built as strong as the older stuff.I have several farmers that call me to repair spray rig's,planters,discs,ect this time of year.The new equipment has some impressive computers,& gps units,But the structural steel is thinner than the older equipment and that keeps my welding rig busy.I have a small collection of "successful farming" and "indiana prairie farmer" magazines from the late 1950's to the erly 1970's.They had alot of articals and stories about farmers modifying a new piece of equipment to suit there needs or improve it's performance.One of my favorites is the"M&W" turbo kits for the tractors in the 1960's.Here is a magazine website you will like . www.farmshow.com .They show farmers building and modifying equipment.
I grew up on a farm and I stayed. Im 20 now and passed up college for it. Were always building stuff for the farm or seedhouse and have older equipment that requires a lot more up keep than newer stuff. Most of big operators here have new iron and if it breaks they take it to deere and get something else.
Feed Bunk, thats refreshing to see a son staying on,but not the norm anymore (at least in our area). It's not glamorous anymore to be a farmer,and the kids these days are more interested in "easy money". I know as I have 2 boys,one entering college next yr,and one finishing his 1st yr. I see farm kids going into the medical field,getting teaching degrees,becoming coaches,etc...As my boys grew up their "farm kid" friends were playing nitendo,swiming at the pool,at summer camps, as their dads where busy in the fields. Their kids drive the nicest cars and pickups,are best dressed,and go to the best colleges. In a sense they are the most "preppie" kids in school. Somewhere here is where I think part of the problem lies. In our area the small farms are almost gone. The big farms just keep getting bigger. Maybe as some of these older generation farmers where so busy building their empires,they didn't take the time to "pass it on". And the sons of the small farms seen their fathers struggle to stay afloat,and wanted no part of it. Two of the biggest farmers in our area did have their college boys come back to run the empires. It was handed to them on a silver platter. Although they do have the good business skills to manage,the hands on skills have been lost. Dealers have to go out and setup equipment for them,shoot our salesman have to setup their planters all the time. These kids drive around in $50K pickups with cellphones attatched to their ears,as their hired hands are doing the work. Not saying this is wrong,just the norm now. They don't need the "hands on" skills anymore. They just need to know who to call or hire that does. So, in a sense that does make the labor too expensive to mod things in the shop,as it takes skilled labor to do so. It isn't free labor anymore doing it yourself during the winter months or rainy spells. This will make the service side of farming more and more expensive,as there are fewer and fewer of us with the skills. Eventually if you want that type of work done,it'll cost ya. Now don't get me wrong young farmers out there. I know it's not all like this,just a trend I see as farming is turning into big business. Times have changed....
Nice post Gadgetman.......I completely agree with you, Im 20 years old, and work on a farm. I enjoy what I do, even though its not the highest paying job that I could get, or the easiest. I look around me and see the same thing in my area.....kids dont want to work anymore, but I dont blame them at all....I blame there parents for spoiling them, and not forcing them to be "on there own."
Sheeww, I was worried that came out wrong. Glad a 20 yr old said that,so I didn't have too.:tong My hats off to you two,your a dying breed. :usa I love working with you guys,we have a few ourselves. Soak up knowledge like a sponge. In turn, you can keep us ole-timers up to speed on the tech side. I'm still all for the tech stuff,it just takes the "hands on" to make it all work.
It may be that it's not that they don't know, but more they may not have time. So many people think that as your size gets bigger your problems or issues you deal with stay they same. In most if not all cases, your labor per cow goes down with larger farms, but your problems go through the roof. Large farms have more land owners, vendors, employee's to deal with. One manager I know spends most of his time handling problems, either land owners or employee's. You can’t spread manure without upsetting someone. Most areas now if you are a large farm you have to have a “manure management plan”. Employee’s it seems like a larger number of them today don’t want to think. They want to come to work and vegetate till payday. It also seems like they complain more and more about things a few years ago, you wouldn’t think of complaining about. Home owners are also a pain in the neck, they buy a home next door to a farm, then complain about the smell and other things that go with farming. These are just a few examples, seems like every problem gets bigger with size. Now I also worked on some farms that the fathers did try to teach their sons. These boys you couldn't tell them anything, they knew all. As far as it changing, I can't believe the size of some of this equipment today. Back 20 years ago 300Hp on any machine was huge, now some are in the 800 hp range. Mowers that can cover near 50' in 1 pass. Planters that can plant 48 rows, back a bit 12 rows was huge.
Thanks Gadgetman you hit the nail on the head as far as Im concerned.
Nothinbetter,you brought up some good points. Today's employee problem is really a widespread one. The skills of the covitted farmboy are becoming a thing of the past. The remainder of the common workforce is in direct competition with higher paying employers. What's left,well we've all had to deal with some of that. You might get 1 good one out of 3.
I grew up on a farm as well, joined the military, tried selling parts for a equipment dealer, ran equipment for a developer, and decided what I liked doing was fixing and running equipment. I'm also not afraid to do a little modifing or custom make a piece of machinery, but times have changed. The modern farmer or contractor isn't forced to use one particular brand of equipment or make his own, there are lots of different choices out there. Especially with the web, you don't need to make your own and spend tons of time and money doing your own trial and error when someone else already makes a perfectly good unit. You can't afford too many screw ups before your equal to or greater than buying a pre made unit. With that being siad being handy with a welder sometime saves you big when its time to do repairs.
Basically I think it is a case of why bother getting your hands dirty if you don't have too. To a certain extend American farmers have been getting pretty good subsidies and incentives for a long time. This has made buying new, instead of fixing or building your own, more attractive. Nothing wrong with that as the people making equipment have to eat as well. Also todays farmer has to be more multi skilled than ever and in order to still have a life outside of working the farm, some things have to be cut back. I guess these days they are more people managers and decision makers than hands on in the dirt type. However you will find than in the more marginal farming areas (like Australia) there is still a lot of hands on Farmers.
interesting string of posts. in general i agree. i think the young people that come to farm, do tend to be less self reliant than older generations, although older generations are older which would tend to give them more experience. here are some other factors i think of: 1. barriers of entry. gadgetman you mentioned the kids coming back are handed everything. true. but how in the world could you start a competitive commercial farm without some windfall. granted it doesnt have to be an empire but at the very least you have to have some old timer with no offspring be interested in working with the next gen. and share the profit. pretty tough to plunk down cash for land, equipment starting out. 2. technology. look at the equipment available today. speed/size/cost of the iron, let alone all the other innovations (seed, fertilizer, pesticides, etc) that have come about allowing one farmer to do so much more. they really are more of a business man, rather than an equipment operator. 3. margin. dad talks about when he started, everybody had hogs. they paid the mortgage. they were hard work. took lots of labor, but paid well. today the margin on most farming activities is narrow enough you have to have some wearwithal as with farming ups and downs WILL happen. 4. time. in past times farmers that could innovate or rennovate equip where well compensated. yes a mechanic is expensive today, but if he has couple 100k of grain to market, he'll make more money being a good marketer than he will fixing stuff. 5. rural decline. i graduated 10yrs ago in a class of 40. graduating class today is 30, and they are bringing in 18 in the kindergarden. as it takes fewer farms to work the landscape the general population of rural america goes down. less "in town" jobs also contribute. that and with a college education being the norm, it is a hard decision to go to the big town, offering big wages and come back. shoot the bible had stories about "the big city" doing this years ago. 6. lay of the land. when you get to flat black ground, cut up in square 160's. that allows for mega farmers to exist. big pieces, one management style, low year to year risks. so some of the transformation of the farm is directly related to the land. i live in the river bottom surrounded by hill ground. takes more time to manage, not convenient for large equipment, cash rent less common. some of the change is geographical. at the end of day i still believe true farm kids still have an appreciation for working the dirt, and continue to come back home. these kids do have a different skill set than past generations, i will grant that. i believe in comparison to some/most town kids they have more drive, and more opportunity for responsibility earlier in life. i believe in the future, america will become aware of the fact that farming is a major national strength (could be one of the last basic manufacturing industries we have) and there will be a period of more prosperity for those who work the land. things have changed a long way. i would say they will continue to change.
With industrialization, few people are given the opportunity to think – to be creative and innovative. http://web.missouri.edu/~ikerdj/papers/CoporateAgandFamilyFarms.htm
Other things that have changed Other areas that have changed are all the legal stuff, some good, some bad that farmers have to deal with. Today it’s actually cheaper in some cases to sub out things that 20 years ago you wouldn’t think of. One is crop spraying. With the liability and licensing involved about ½ the farms I know sub it out now. Another is manure. Due to the liability and expense more and more farms are going to liquid storage and having a sub manage that for them. Others focus on just the dairy and sub out all of the crop management. Then they can focus on the cows and not worry about the weather, seed, equipment, etc. Liability, seems like years ago people weren’t as sue happy as they are today. Now it seems like everyone is looking for the least little thing to sue someone for money. That to some degree is why I think a larger farmer would think twice about modifying a machine. Where I currently work we won’t unless we get written approval from the OEM 1st. It’s one thing if it’s a family farm and only family works on it. If you have employee’s and one gets hurt with a machine you have modified watch out. Even if the modification had nothing to do with the injury, some lawyer will sway a jury that it’s your fault. Even if the employee does exactly what common sense would tell them not to and if you trained them not to do something. It doesn’t matter, you’re the evil business man and your employee is a victim of your greed. Property rights, posted and no trespass use to mean something. Now people will think nothing of going out with an ATV across your land, damage your crops and if they get hurt on your land at least try to sue. Depending on the local cops, some will help you out, others “have better things to do than chase trespassers”. Some good changes. GPS who would have thought 25 years ago that you could apply fertilizer, plant crops etc. with GPS. Diskmowers, rotary rakes, rotary milking parlors. All things that speed up and or reduce labor.
I grew up on a large farm, went to University(while farming), served in the Army reserves(while farming) and now I just farm. Standards on the farms you speak of must be low, b/c if I didn't do the seeding, spraying, combining, fixing, etc myself, it would be a gongshow. They can truck grain, run simple stuff(harrows, deep tiller etc) with supervision, basically an extra hand. I have a neighbour with the silver platter scenario, and his farm is cruddy. I just don't know very many farmers who got it on a platter around here.
You got to thank factory farming and the drive for cheap stuff. You can't make a living at it anymore with 40 acres and a mule. Now you have have to have a few hundred acres and a whole lot of money in gear. And kids now a days don't want to work so hard to just get by. I have an old Massey 65, when it was new it was a real tractor. Nobody in their right mind would try to farm professionally with a 50hp tractor now a days. If you can't cover atleast 25 ft in a pass it isn't worth your time. I am sorry to see all the old timers vanishing. I just bought a grain drill from an old timer who used it since it was new to plant his fields for 50 years but you can't make a living with a 10 ft drill anymore.
I must be bucking the trends then my grain drill is an old oliver ten foot, I use and eight foot brillion pulled behind a oliver 77 and make two passes to get the new seeding in the ground. Just kidding ya Seafarer.... I agree with ya though when ya say the trends for things have gotten to where if ya can't do whatever in 25' or more widths ya can't make a living. Personally I'm fed up with the regs, the fact that I have to pay almost ten times what my father paid for the same farm and those sniveling little turds who think that I'm getting rich on gov subsidies. Actually as Gov subsidies go I personally stay the heck out of the programs as much as possible. I have participated in the MILC programs, but as I see it now with all the strings they want to attach to that program I do not believe it is worth even bothering with the red tape. Now maybe some are askin how the heck do I stay in business.....I do my own fabricating, very little help is hired, I get up early and don't ever quit. I do agre the trend is that we as young farmers tend to go for the glory life, but fer me satisfaction is taking something from the ground up, building yer business around yer family and never let your head hang in shame cuzz someone else has that new piece of equipment. There is still a few of us around I would say. :usa
I think there is still a market for small family farms you just have to find a market. Something the big boys don't mess with. Like some of the heritage type items or some things you just don't see much anymore. When I get my place worked out I would like to try some of these small items to experiment with and see what does well in my area. Needless to say it will be a side job then a retirement job when the electric company starts sending me a pension check. I checked into some of those government programs with my land. You are right about the red tape and rules. You had to jump through every hoop they told you to do to get help. I decided the help wasn't worth it.
yeah I think the worst part of the programs mostly signed up for by farmers is the red tape. for instance in the Loan deficinecy payments (cyclical LDP payments) in MN you have to "certify" for a period of three years using the county average as a base, and then keep records for your own production to establish a new base from which your new LDP payments are then based. IN addition the Gov. now says you have to have a Land use plan which details things like fertilizer application, manure application, tillage practices, and crops grown just to name a few. In my mind when the gov is leaning towards things like their new carbon credits ideas I do not want any gov agency telling me that I cannot subsoil my farm to maximize my yeilds. (Gov has determined in all their infinate wisdom that tillage practices add to the greenhouse effect.) (I would imagine that other forms of dirt work will come under scrutiny as well if this law passes) and these gov payments are one way that Gov can wrap farmers up in red tape and make em dance through hoops. My business plan calls for straight forward marketing (traditional) but we are currently moving toward a very low debt to asset ratio. I embrace a series of small baby steps to get where I'm going and sometimes it means buying that used piece of equipment that don't look purdy...... Seafarer I'm 37 years old right now, been farming for going on 20 years myself, and if I may I'd like to wish you luck on your endevors, it's a good life, wether you use traditional marketing or niche markets farmin can be quite rewarding
Im 20 and I have grown up on a farm all my life. After high school I went to college for 2 years majoring in Architecture and got my degree. It gave me something else to fall back on or if I wanted to on the side but am now back now to farming and beginning my own excavating business. The farm we have is large and we have all new Deere equipment but that doesnt mean we dont fabricate things for our own needs. We custom built from scratch both our corn and grain head trailers and also our seed wagon for planting. Theres many other things we have fabricated as well but I know a farm a little bigger than us and they dont do any maintence on anything but just trade everything in for new equipment every 2 years. I think thats not true farming. This country has lost the respect for farmers that everyone once had. When we get on the roads you can see that by how impatient people are and the gestures we recieve cuz of slowin down traffic. Maybe if all farmers didnt produce anything for a year people would realize we are a necessitty for life and give us respect but I doubt it. They would all just look to the government to help them which is what is wrong with this country. Everybody wants everything given to them but not farmers we know the true meaning of working for our food.
I'd also like to add the fact that money is easy to borrow and land values have inflated so much in the last ten years its hard not to expand and upgrade, I look around and see the bto's [big time operators] and most are the 1980's bankrupt failures that have come back with a vengence, not all but most, these guys use bankruptcy as a management tool and borrowed money as a means to expand beyond their means. One even told me if it all fails I've got enough corporations one of them is bound to stay afloat and the others can sink, I'll still walk away with millions. Years ago money wasn't as easy to get and you had to have implecable track record to get more and now, good god 25 years ago they filed bankruptcy and bragged about it screwing hundreds of thousands of dollars out of people and now its going to be millions and they have no conscience about it and lenders are lined up to loan them more. Years ago people couldn't afford to buy stuff and had little money, the economy was stable and had only a little gain in land values so after farming for 40 years they sold out and moved to town and got a little more than they paid for it, now the land sold is going for 2-7000 per acre and their parents paid maybe 200-500 per acre for it. If you took the inflated vaule off this land you wouldn't see whats happening today, it took excellent management to make it in the past but not today today, I know one guy that I grew up with and he owns several thousand acres and rents 3000 more and in school he couldn't even add or subtract any simple math at all, its all borrowed and rode up inflation and all debts and until someone stops loaning him money the sky's the limit, once they do stop he's all done farming because he's never paid for anything. I call them the borrowing generation, their dads were the money making generation and top notch farmers but these guys are in it to be big and farm it all not own it and make a profit and pay for it, one even told me if I buy it I can do as I please and when I sell it I'll use the increase in value to pay for it until then don't worry about it, my question was what happens if its not worth what you paid for it, answer was, bankruptcy and I still keep a lot of it anyhow, I've got enough corportations and ventures some are bound to turn out. Now how many of the older generation had those values?? As far as the equipment getting bigger, yes and its going to continue and most of its leased and will eventually go back because these guys think differently than the older guys, these guys view it as a leverage tool and a resource not a purchase to keep up and own for decades and make money with, there's a whole differnt philosophy behind their purchasing and leasing than years ago. These guys don't generally care about taking care of it because they know it's not going to be around in say five years so theres no need to worry about it, years ago they had to take care of it because they couldn't afford to trade or upgrade not so today. And another thing in good times nobody can make a mistake and everythings good, if tomorrow when I wake up my net worth has increased say 40% and that trend continues for the next 5 years its kinda hard not to be sucessfull, just wait until theres a downturn in land values and every year for the next 5 years your value drops 40% and then lets see who's left and what takes place, the borrowing generation can only makes money by borrowing and watching values increase, they have no idea how to actually make any money and what happens if their values decrease and they have done nothing different than last year. This maynot be the case everywhere but thats what I'm seeing around me and I stand by my statement because I know way more than I'd like to about some of these guys financial condition and thier management skills, which they have none of as far as I'm concerned. Yes I agree they have more problems to contend with than years ago but most of them are self inflicted and over financial problems and figuring out how to avoid actually paying for things. As one guy told me in reguards to one of the bto's, "he's a real thinker" he's got ways figured out how to get what he wants without actually paying for it. Another thing to consider is inhertance nowadays, some of these guys are getting their whole parents estates and basically tax free and its not just land worth millions its also millions in cash due to the fact their parents were sucessfull, so tomorrw they wake up and are worth millions more than yesterday and have no idea how to manage anything so they have capital and more free land to borrow against to buy even more yet. Even 40 years ago a farmer with 500 acres was considered large and that was worth maybe 500,000 bucks at most and thats all the net worth they got because most farmers didn't have huge cash reserves, today if you get 500 acres its worth say 3 million and you can borrow against it to buy more land and just go sign a paper and lease all the equipment you need to farm it all. The cash inheritance they get is substancial because nowadays their parents have invested money in differnt things and there is cash to be inherited and can use that for downpayments on more land and overnight they are big time rollers and operate 5 times the amount their parents ever did and expaned themselves into something they really can't handle and did it on borrowed money. These are unprecidented times as far as land values and inheritance and borrowed money and they have all combined in one time to cause what your seeing today. Tomorrow might look completely differnt as times do change and will change. Nobody has ever or will ever borrow their way out of debt and sometime along the way things have to be paid for and you need to turn a profit and make an honest gain, history will repeat itself and when that happens agriculture as we know it will again change, how I'm not sure of but it'll eventually go back to turning a profit and margins will get wider and things will settle down, interest on depositers money will eventually come back up and so will interest on borrowed money and maybe huge farming is here to stay but if so theres going to sound financial practices behind them and not whats going on now. Skills aren't lost you just don't hear about the ones out there doing the fabrication and repairs and maintance because its not the "in thing" right now but its still going on all the time. As far as the farm kids being the next yuppie crowd I'd have to agree but seeing the parents and how they are I"m not real surprised at it a bit. Kids driving 50 grand vehicles, yes I see it all the time and their parents drove the best in their day too and a lot of those faced financial problems in the 80's as well and spending hasn't been a problem for the parents either. I see kids who's parents made a descent living and paid their bills and drove sensible vehicles and were good managers and the those kids drive sensible vehicles and have descent jobs and make a modest living so go figure. Sorry to have babbled for so long.
I disagree with the majority of your post but this comment really left me scratching my head. In the old days all it took was good hard work. Margins where good and inputs where cheap. Now inputs have sky rocketed and crops are worth the same as they where 50 years ago. If you are not at the top of your game as far as managemant you won't make it a year, especially if you are up to your bunghole in debt.
I cant talk for the States but here in OZ it isnt getting any easier. I have a good size holding (17000 acres) and it takes every bit of your brain to keep near the top of the pile. As for borrowing more and more, well it doesnt work like that over here as the land price hasnt moved much in the last 15 years, and if you equity gets below 70 percent then the bank starts asking questions. As for costs well where do I start, machinery is getting out of control and yes randy I have newish gear and no I dont lease it. I pay what I can as cash or on the big stuff I finance it over 2 to 5 years. I do all my repairs and fabrication and employ one person on a casual basis, as you would guess I am very busy all the time. Fertilizer has gone completly mad as have a lot of chemicals Cretebaby is right we get bugger all more for wheat now than 30 years ago. Again Im not speaking fo any other countries (but it would not surprise me if it is the same as here) but in ending I will Quote a neighbour - there arent any bad farmers left anymore.
These guys equity has incresed five fold over the last few years and yes they borrow against every dollar of the increse in their net worth if land had stayed the same and hadn't increased in value they wouldn't be out borrowing and buying, and the leasing option is kicking into overdrive and with one stroke of the pen they can have all new equipmnet overnight and thats what they are doing. Several of the bigger operators I know personally couldn't get any more financing from a lender and just went around them and leased all new equipmnet the next day and keep right on going. As far as inputs for their operation theres still a lot of ag business's that don't require a letter of credit and are dumb enough to cater to these guys and now they are trying to get paid on products delivered. The increse in imput cost over the last five years has skyrocketed so much most of these guys don't have enough equity in anything they own to cover the imputs on all the ground they rent so the banks are saying no more and they just find a different supplier that doesn't require any letter of credit and keep on going. A guy I went to school with runs many thousands of acres and he told me personally he's over five million in debt and buys a million dollars of land every year and has no intention of slowing down any time soon and as long as someone is going to loan it to him he's going to borrown it and there are ten more behind him doing the same thing. As soon as land comes down in value like it did in the 80's and puts a squeeze on their equity nothing will change. As far as elsewhere, just imagine if your land increased in value 6 or 7 times todays value and did it over the next five years what would happen to your area and how that would allow you to borrow more against it and keep expanding. Yes excallent management is needed today but for the last five years as long as net worth has kept increasing you have been allowed to make a lot of mistakes and keep going, just like the 60's and 70's and it didn't catch up until the 80's when land finally took a downturn in value and all the money that was borrowed ended up being more than the land was valued at. I know of a guy that miliked 400 cows and the bank was selling him out because he was in so deep he'd never get out, the equipment dealers were at his door step loading equipment being repoed and he was at his attorney filling out the paperwork filing bankiruptcy when the call came that his lender had located a larger lender who wanted his loan and if he was willing to expand he'd get a loan, overnight he expaned to 800 cows and leased millions in new equipment and bought over a thousand more acres and is going bigger than ever, the only way he's going today is because someone loaned him more money, not because he's a top notch manager but because he got loaned more money and thats all, since he expanded and bought more land his purchased land has more than doubled in value if not trippled and he's used that equity to expand further since he told me that himself. I know of almost a dozen of the high rollers with almost identicall stories as the one I just mentioned and they are in dairy, crops and custom farming, you name it but thats how they are doing what they are doing, if land never went up they all would be either bankrupt or just getting by and today they are high rollers and the world is taking notes, will the past catch up to them, most definately but not until they have borrowed or bought enough or land takes a down turn or someone stops loaning them money. If your neghborhood is differnt then great but from where I'm sitting and talking to lenders and business's and dong business myself and from what legal professionals are telling me this is whats going on here. And yes about six of the high rolelrs I know got a windfall in inheritance after the death of a parent as well. If land stayed steady in value and nothing had changed much in last say 10 years none of these guys would have expanded at all, they would have used their inheritance to pay a few bills and most of them would have been forced out or still struggling to stay afloat. Will it come to an end as far as the high rollers are concerned, I'm absolutely convinced it will but not yet, as far as disagreeing with me go for it, but then with that mentality when land takes a downturn in value, which it can't, since all these guys out there are top notch managers and businessmen land will stay the same due to demand for it at todays prices and lenders and purchasing will remain constant from here on out. There won't be any farmers turned down for loans or or shut down for not making progress on their loans or any farm sales due to financial problems then either. I'm not sure what planet your on but one of my local banks is in the process of selling out/shutting down 32 farmers, seems all the leased machinery and high priced rents are catching up to those guys already. As far as no bad farmers left anymore, Australia must be different than here because I see a lot of bad farmers evey day and have tried to get paid from a lot of them as well and from where I'm sitting theres as many bad as good just like there has always been and always will be. If you want to look at the top notch farmers in my area there the ones today you don't see and never hear about since they are just sitting there dong their thing and waiting for a better day ahead to change their operation and wondering what the future might bring and how to best make a buck in farming today without selling out to cash it all in, those are the better managers, the ones trying to minimize risk and optimize a return on their investiment and stay afloat and turn a profit, as far as what I see none of them are buying much of anything and are sitting on the sidelines waiting a good opertunity to present itself so they can take advatage of it to invest in something that will make them some money, my best client who I consider the elite of the top notch farmers who turned rags into riches told me this spring, "I"ll wait until these boys go broke and then I'll buy them out for 10 cents on a dollar and make a lot of money off their stupidity" he's also told me over the years that he doen't do anything that doesn't make him money and its a business and profit not only turns the wheels of progress but keeps it moving. Thats the philosophy of a good businessman and farmer not "I can use bankruptcy as a business tool"
Well I guess that it must be A LOT different in the states then if their equity as increased five fold, I dont know if you meant land values or equity but if it was land values well I can only dream of that . Land around here has been about 250 to 300 an acre for 20 years that I can remember so if you are a bit big for your boots you dont last long. Sure Ive seen some big spenders but they dont last too long here. Also you might want to take into account we get NO subsidies at all so you will either make it or not. As for banks lending vast amounts of money willy nilly, not here they dont, not to farmers anyway. And go in to a rural supplier here that doesnt know you, and expect credit, that wont happen either , not without letters from your bank, accountant and several other businesses as references. Our family started here in 1929 with a small parcell of land (about 500 acres) and it has taken untill now to get to 17200 and yes I do own it all after much blood sweat and tears. As for borrowing more and more because your values keep going up is like the equity argument , that "oh good now that land has gone up Im worth more", well I dont believe that at all. The only time that is true is when you want to liquify the asset, but I dont want to sell anytime soon so I dont worry to much about my equity. The way I see it is every year if I have spent less than I earnt then I have gone forward, then I dont have to worry about my bank manager. Obviously you have seen a lot of very flamboyant farmers where you are. I have seen some but not for long. I also have seen some extremely conservitive ones here that dont strike the right balance and that are now too small to return a big enough amount of money to replace aging equipment. The new stuff is way too much for them and now so is the second hand market. So now whilst they may get the money to buy a small amount of land they cannot farm the extra because the equipment isnt up to the task and they wont get the finance to do both. It doesnt take long before they realise that they are cornered and sell up. I suppose it is just different over there I can accept that. All I can ask is that maybe you do the same. Cheers.
You sure paint with a broad brush. I don't know what part of BFI you are from but around here for every one operator that is even remotely, very remotely, like the operators you describe there are dozens of examples of very good operators that run on little if any borrowed money, work there arse off and make a good profit. Sure a guy can borrow money but it still has to be paid back. Even the interest will bury them if they are not at the top of there game. A million dollars sounds like alot of money but it is chump change when it comes to buying land. Land worth buying around here is going for 8k+/acre so a mil doesn't even get you a quarter section. If a guy owned many thousand acres acres 5 mil in debt would be peanuts.
Land values have NOT increased Five fold in a few years like Randy would have you think. I think your experience with the banks is more realistic for here too.
CRETE:.....nobody uses rotohoes anymore lmao Pj
There use should be reconsidered. :drinkup
Land sold in 1988 for 700 per acre and again the same land sold in 2010 for 3600 per acre so in my calculator thats five fold, another parcel sold for less than 800 in 1988 and in 2005 it was sold for 2500 and in 2010 it sold again for 6200 now my calculator tells me thats a five to seven fold increase in value both farms were originally bought by the same person in the late 60's for 250 per acre a school class mate of mine's dad bought both farms and thats what he paid for them and in 1988 at his death they were sold then and again since. In 1990 I bid on a parcel of land it sold for 1250 an acre that farm has been sold in 2002 for 2600 and in 2009 it sold again for 6200 an acre so if thats not a realistic value of increase then I didn't learn math in school very well. My hats off to those in Austrailia sounds like things are more realistic there. As for here I was referring to how things have changed in agriculture and thats what the post was originally about I thought. Now there always has and always will be excellent managed farms and they will survive and I never was refering to them at all, there are hundreds of them and they have done really well. Now on the other hand farming has changed and its the new guys on the block that are defining the change as I originally stated, we'll take a first hand look at 12 of the largest and newest operators playing the game in my area. Six of the 12 filed bankruptcy in the 1980's and kept going farming to some extent, three more of the 12 had farthers, brothers, cousins of some extend that filed bankruptcy since the 1980's that these guys farmed with at the time, so that makes 9 in my book and three got money thrown off their loans in the 1980's and or let farms go back to avoid bankruptcy and stay afloat. Now I'm conservative and don't take kindly to people walking away from their responsibilty so they can make a comeback in the future, now of these 12 who will pay any price for rent and rent any quality land and pay any price to buy any quanity or quality of land I don't feel in todays time and age after having avoided responsibiiity for past debts they should have the opertunity to try it again, of these 12 since land bottomed out in the 80's and they were basically broke the increse in value of their land gave them the equity they needed to borrow money to purchase more land and start the process all over again but this time around 6 inherited land and a substancial amount of it along with a windfall of cash to go along with it to help jumpstart their second wind at purchasing land and outrenting all others, couple that with playing the leasing game and having all new equipment and thier off and rolling. Now of these 12 three openly brag in public about how they filed bankruptcy and one even says he wishes he'd have beaten more people out of more money if he had to do it over again. As in my original post I'll again state that if land was valued like it was say 15-30 years ago and not inflated in value they wouldn't have the equity to borrow money against the inflated value to purchase additional land let along run or rent any more ground, throw in the fact that margins are slim as everyone knows and it takes time to aquire profit to purchase even more ground and if they started with for example 500 acres in 1980 and didn't start adding additional acreage until after the year 2000 when land started to shoot up in value they still can't purchase and pay for 500 acres a year evey year since 2000 unless they are borrowning against the incresed equity in the purchased land, now this isn't rocket science and several bankers did explain this exact subject to me over the last several years so its not a new concept and they all understand how its done and in fact several wanted me to do the same thing and I turned them down and told them my land will be vauled at what I paid for it and not one dime more and I'm not borrowning against it to purchase some over inflated land. Are their hundreds of good farmers out there operating daily, heavens yes but most of them aren't the topic of conversation at the local coffee shops but these 12 are and people wonder how they do it and get by with it and as I tried to explain in the original post its a combination of factors that got them to where they are today and if you took even one of those factors out of the equation they wouldn't be farming today and I stand by my original statement. They operate with a differnt set of values and ideas and if your trying to compete with them you better understand just what your actually competing with and how they operate. If land never bottomed out in the 80's in your area then great but here land was 4 by 4 and it made the news 4000 per acre by 1984 and it didn't make it, around here it make it to about 3600 in 1981 or 1982 and bottomed somewhere around 700 per acre and started to climb back up again and took off around 2004 and according to the realitors reports was going up at the rate of 20% plus in value almost every year for a few years until late last year and a realitor friend of mine told me its holding its own so take it for what its worth, the highest land price around here was about 6800 per acre early 2009 according to him, and he's the one that told me land was about 700 per acre in 1988 or a 7 fold increase or a five fold increase since about 2004 so if its wrong the assocaiation of realitors is telling me wrong but thats how my math works as well, coupled with what lenders are telling me which is the same thing. If cretebaby has a different view on things I'd like to know where he gets info from because mine comes firsthand from lenders and business's dealing with farmers and also realitors and nowhere in Iowa did I see any values at 8k per acre in the early 90's or even early 2000's. You can download the statistics of realastate trends in the entire state and I might be off a few years but somewhere along the line several years in a row Iowa had almost a grand an acre increase in land values over several years and they broke it down for percentages of increase along with the highest land sold in any perticular area. Now maybe this isn't as knowledgable as I had assumed it was but I do ask a lot of questions because I do farm and am in business that deals directly with farmers every day and I need to know who to do business with and who to avoid and bankers know people and do provide details to help me, and yes they do answer specifice questions about specific people as to who to avoid and who to do work for and what paperwork to have signed ahead of time, as one banker told me you're[ meaning me] my customer too and I don't need to loan you money to help out some flunky who I know will screw you by not paying what he owes you. I've even been given a list of names of people of who not to work for by different lenders and I call regularly to have the list updated becasue things change fast. I'm a big believer in who you know not what you know and its worked for me so far Well if I confused or offened you I'm sorry but it is what it is and its how I see it and how its explained to me so if its wrong just remember you get what you pay for and seeing how its free you couldn't expect much in the first place.
Its been a long week and I posted it late last night so I"m sorry I almost forgot you can't forget about lawsuit money one of the higher bidders also had a lot of lawsuit money and insurance money to help set him up to play. These guys are the ones setting the prices of the rent and land values and all the others are trying to compete and stay in business and against them, why, I'm not real sure other than its what it takes in todays market to survive. Are there rents out there that make sense, of course its done all the time but you never hear about those, is there land sold every day thats sensable and realistiic, every day but their not talked about, and that hasn't changed and never will so thats not new in any way and I didn't feel it was pertinant to this post. Land sales and rents are a lot like gambling as one lender told me you only hear of those who win big and set a new standard not the guys that lost or went home empty handed. No I was not emcompassing a wide net to inclued everyone, if it came across that way you read more into it than it was about this post was for whats changed in agriculture not whats the same about agriculture, good management, land stewardship, good marketing, turning a profit, dealing with lenders that sit down and do things right and base things on cash flow and projected earnings, none of that is or will ever be new and those guys and gals aren't out there paying the top anything anywhere. Theres been a lot of farmers who tried to compete in a market that didn't fit into their operation and ended up losing a lot, thier the ones who are being clamped down on now by lenders, getting into the thinking of "I have to pay this much because everyone else is" buried a lot of guys in debt. I talk to my customers and I've learned over the years the better managed ones have the mentality of if I can't make a profit I'm waling away and staying out of it and those guys are surviving and thriving, also they are not the ones paying those rents or sale prices, as one told me this spring, I'll only pay so much and if its not good enough then they can find someone else to rent it and I don't need to rent from those kind of people anyhow. A lot of people think that only money drives a rental or sale but thats not always true, some look at a lot more like how will my farm be taken care of and farmed and that means more than top dollar, that again has never changed and probably never will. The dairy farmer I discussed I did work for a little guy who was trying to compete and buy some land that the big guy eventually got ahold of and was completely devastated he lost out and after talking to him and explaining what and who he was up against he told me so then I was actulaly bidding against myself because he'll never actually pay for it like I was trying to do. I told him bingo you got it and now that you understand the game don't lose all you've earned for nothing and move on and use his faults against him and find someone who despises the ground he walks on and that'll rent or sell you some ground reasonable. Apparently he'd never been told that before or put to him in a way he understood he just needed someone to turn him to the thinking of I'll only pay so much or walk away. It has surpirsed me that a lot of people I've come in contact with over the years don't realize this or do but don't apply it into management plan so to speak. There are a lot of excellant lenders out there that are upfront and do an excellant job and others that have a lot to be desired and only after its too late will intervien. I've delt with both kinds over the years and before I work for someone new to me I do find out who their banker is ahead of time and you'd be surpirsed how that helps me to understand a little about the person and why they do the things they do and yes its also linked to who will I have problems with as far as getting paid or not. Any data you can get ahold of makes for a better decision later on and I'm convinced of that. I've learned over the years 95% of the people out there are as honest as the day is long and about 5% are complete crooks, a long time ago someone gave me some advice as to how to identify the difference and ask questions and who to to figure out the ones I' wasn't sure of and its worked fine for me over the years. If you don't have any of these guys in your area that tells me your area has kept them out and its a more stable area as far as farming is concerned, there are areas out there I've done work in that nobody new has come along in so long because the land is in good hands and its passed down and kept in a controlled enviroment, now if your in an area like that your probably reading this thinking what planet are these people on and from what universe, so for those great your area and community is doing a great job and keep it up.
as much as i would like to read this thread and throw my $.02 in, someone is going to have to summarize it for me, i have never seen such long winded post that lead nowhere.......CRETE, can you put all this in a nutshell for me you know i am a little ADD lol. Pj
History of John Deere Here’s a look at the 173 year history of John Deere in a way that only an infographic can capture. :usa http://blog.machinefinder.com/2419/john-deere-tractor-infographic
History of John Deere Here’s a look at the 173 year history of John Deere in a way that only an infographic can capture. http://blog.machinefinder.com/2419/john-deere-tractor-infographic
Farming changes You can say that again, holy cow. Maybe in Randy88's area that is the way things are done. I don't know anyone around here operating this way, big or small. Guys that don't take care of there equipment? OK, maybe somewhere, but not here. I know guys that are hard on machines, and at times will run 24-7 to get the job done. I don't know any that don't take care of the equipment or that all of the machines they run are 5 years old or less.
OK, lot of good thoughts here. I moved from Red Bank NJ to rural MN as a 16 year old in 71. In 72 dad bought his dream farm where I now live. I didn't "make it" on the farm because dad was just hobby farming. I spent my years from 74 to 96 in the Army. But I was here enough to know what killed off the family farms here. 2 things. Regulations and slave labor. Most of the small farmers up here worked thier kids to death. My own brother in law was allowed to play league soft ball with the local church. That was his only recreation. His father bragged about how at 8 he would spend days in the field operating a tractor with no supervision. Now he did stay on the farm but most of the farm kids I went to school with couldn't wait to get away from the farm. The few who stayed used threats to get thier fathers to buy new equipment they really couldn't afford. My wife's uncle raised 9 kids. 5 boys. None stayed on the farm but all stayed in the local area. Go ask em. They were burned out on farm work in thier early teens. My brother in law who stayed on the farm and my "city girl" sister raised 9 kids. 7 boys. One wanted to stay on the farm but my brother in law didn't want to spend any money upgrading a poorly run (because of the tight wad thing) farm. When he got married and had a kid he had to leave to support his family. Now they had the room for 40 milking cows, and run 60 head of beef cows. They also crop close to 1000 acres. On one 67 acre plot my brother in law put nothing in the soil 17 out of 18 years he cropped it (my farm, dad let him crop it for free when he quit farming and he cropped it until 8 years ago when I gave him the boot because of what he had done to the soil). Why would a kid stay? Now his son (good kid) #4 is farming with him but he told his dad...."you want me to stay and help then we do it better". He still has to argue but it's way better. Now this nephew of mine rolled his first tractor at age 12 by taking a turn WOT in road gear. Got tossed and broke both wrist....at age 12 on the highway. He rolled the same tractor when he was 16. He almost laid over an IH 1586 with duals coming in my drive at 17. Never slowed down to turn off the road. When he made the turn I saw air under one set of duals. But this kid really wants to farm. he has made enough improvements that my brother in law is going into simi retired status. But getting back to things most farm kids from the late 60's to early 70's said screw this I'm outta here. What was dad to do. A lot of em were mad. Wife's uncle was one. Sold out, moved into town ands spent the money....kid's ain't getting nothing when he goes! He wasn't the only one. The guys that held onto thier land and let the kids inherit the kids all wanted something and the land was sold. Now they got nothing cause they blew it. Onto the regulations. Dad quit farming when he did because he was going to have to put in a milk house and pipe line system. He was 65. At that age he decided not to barrow money. So he sold his livestock and equipment off. He wasn't the only one. farm labor cost was another. When we moved up here a farmer was exempt from minimum wage. many farmers paid under that but provided housing and or other comp. The federal government didn't like that because they couldn't tax the farm worker on anything except the wage. So they made farmers pay minimum wage. A lot of the smaller guys just couldn't afford it. And with the kids running for the city they had to have help or quit. Now I'm setting here on the farm. My wife is in college taking sustainable farming. We have a few head of beef and buy feeder pigs in the spring for our family. We have 7 children, youngest is 22 and 10 grand kids, 5 of them live close enough to share the wealth. I'm not looking to make a living on the farm but I'm trying to get to where we at least pay for operations. I'm currently set on 2 more years of renting the crop land out then I'm doing it myself. I've made some of my own equipment and made mods on others. My whole thing here is not going to the bank. I'm not buying anything new or even fairly new. I have a Ford 8N with plow, cultivator, rear blade, sub soiler, 2 row corn planter (home made) and finish mower. And IH M that is used on a JD 33 spreader, 10 ft drill and 6' brush hog. A 1206 IH that is mostly used right now for "dem der Mn vinters" with a blower and a little field work with a 14' disk and a JCB TLB that will now take over for some chores and feeding bales. I deal with critters with a fire arm but am thinking about getting a jack to protect the herd....they keep the cyotes away and they are getting to be a problem in our area! We will also have about 5 acres in veggie garden next year. A friend is making about 1k a weeks from Jun 1 to the end of Sept at the farmers market. Are we going to get rich of of it????? No chance in he**! Can we make a little profit? I think so. And the wife really had to sell me on this! Oh BTW, the nephew who quit the farm because he had a family to support....When he went to leave the farm he thought about buying his own farm. He came up with a plan to include buying the land and took it to the bank. The bank liked most of it but a. wanted him to buy new or newer equipment (he has a degree in farm ag mechanics) than his plan called for and b. to put in 80 milking cows instead of the 50 he planned on. He figured he could do 50 by himself and maybe hire a little summer field work. The bank wanted him to go to 80 and hire a full time herd manager. He works for a COOP now. I know this kinda rambled...sorry it's the drugs.....VA says I have to take em! Rick in west Mn doing way more than VA would like me to!