Hello all, as you may have remembered I posted awhile back about getting into a cat dealership. As of the 25th I will have been there a year now. Due to corona we have been pretty slow and just now picking back up. With up to 4 people cleaning at once the store numbers tanked which caught the attention of the office dwellers to put it lightly. At first it wasn't so bad with minor safety rule changes, a tool box size restriction, and general tips for helping with production which I understood. However today during the monthly meeting things took a interesting turn. There are 7 of us in the shop with 1 old timer who only works on trucks. Everyone else has been there for 1 to 4 years max. We basically got told we were all worthless slow crappy techs and if things didn't get better big changes were going to happen We brought up the vast variety of stuff we work on [ CAT, AGCO, CLAAS, ALL TRUCKS, and 13 short lines of equipment and our general inexperience of being fairly green yet. We were told that we were supposed to give a time frame until we were to quote "experienced enough to make money" So I guess my question to those much older and wiser then myself, how much time did it take before you got good at being a technician? Our group is supposed to have an answer by next safety meeting, thanks for your help guys
tool box size restriction?!
being a technician is one thing being an equipt. mechanic is another. I`m not sure anyone can be good at both
"Experienced enough to make money" my ***. Only if you're working as a (necessary) strong pair of hands under the guidance of an experienced (10 years + IMHO) tech. Somebody's bulsh1tting........... A formal apprenticeship can be anything from 3-5 years, I'm not sure what it is in your location. So on that basis there is a possibility that none of you are "techs" or even "mechanics" yet by that qualification standard. I'm not sure what the yardstick is these days in the Cat dealer world for how much value an apprentivce is supposed to add to the organization. Apprentices are an investment in the future, not a profit centre in the here-and-now IMHO.
Yeah. *** is that all about.? Restriction in what sense.? Another thought. Are they charging you out at full technician/mechanic rates, or at a percentage based on your experience.? If they are charging you out at full whack then in my opinion they are only fooling themselves. Are you working on any training programmes, outside or inside the organization, such as the Cat "Think Big" programme.? If you are then by the company's own admission you are not yet fully qualified (or experienced).
When I was training, I would tell my trainee that it takes approx 6 months to get proficient at what he was learning..& that was 1 or 2 inj. pumps he was learning.. DAY IN & DAY OUT.. same pumps.. Different problems but SAME PUMPS.. I CAN imagine the diff. machines that come thru your door.. with the various problems.. U have to be an engine rebuilder, an electrician, an A/C guy, among all the other fields that it takes.!! It takes YEARS to master just 1 of those fields.!!! NOT JUST “A YEAR” ... but MANY YEARS.!! & there’s ALWAYS that 1 machine that kicks you azz & u lose money, no matter how experienced u are..
I have been in the truck repair industry for 47 years, plus six years of that working automotive machine. The biggest problem manufactures have these days is several design changes in a single year. Because of the lousy designs and the constant changes it's really tough to stay ahead of it even with years under your belt. The service writer/shop foreman in your shop has his head up his *** right along with the rest in the office with the thinking they can operate a shop with a green crew. Ain't going to happen. Because of the over designed equipment about the best a person can do is getting good on four different types and in some cases that's a stretch. But you are dealing with today's business model, and it's a sh!ty way to run a business. I would bet the floor boss in your shop is about worthless as a mechanic.
And it always seemed to me that as soon as you get to the point you have a particular machine or component figured out so you felt you understood it pretty good one of two things would happen. First someone in the main office would decide that they wanted to start buying Komatsu instead off Cat or Hough loaders! Second if they did stay with, say Cat, Cat would change some major design like from the 988B to the 988H loaders! Might not be as bad at a dealer where you might see each new version of a particular machine every year. But working for a company that might go five or ten years between upgrades on major equipment it could be a big shock to see how things had changed in that time. Like going from a 980G with a 3406 engine then all of a sudden in comes a 980K with a C13 and all that extra stuff on top of the engine, what the heck is that? And what happened did they forget to install the steering wheel at the factory? And they give you a half hour walk around by a guy who has barely any idea of what the different things do as his job is to just deliver it and bolt on a few do-dads that the factory put in a box.
Yeah, I forgot about the service writer.. he can be your best friend or your worse enemy.!!! But in most all cases he’s an A-H.. Such as giving a transmission job to the guy that know/does electrical .. u get my drift.. So the upper level office people left it up to the floor mechanics for an answer.??!!! What r they gonna do, fire everyone.?? Lol.. they’ll be in the same if not worse boat that they’re in NOW.. IF & that’s a BIG IF, they could hire better tech’s.. they would have.. ALREADY..
Wow! Like the others said it takes a few years to be good and it also takes a willingness to learn. I'm speaking for myself, but if I was told that I am worthless and need to give a time frame of when I would get better. My toolbox will be loaded in my pickup that instance. Inexperienced or not. Never let someone think that they can tell you that you are worthless.
Lol.. I was gonna say that.. but I’m sure he wasn’t/ didn’t want to hear that.. but I’m the same way.. I woulda just laughed..& asked them when r they gonna send u to training school.?!!! They’re the ones that hired/fired the experienced techs.!!! They hired “green” mechanics for a reason.!! So they didn’t have to pay them as much as a experienced mech.!!!
Somebody has PMS, it has nothing to do with you, let it roll off your back. Telling employees that they are "all worthless slow crappy techs and if things didn't get better big changes were going to happen" and having a shop full of new guys working on anything that comes through the door is not how you train mechanics. There is nothing indicated that there anything in place to train or mentor you guys. There might be layoffs if the business is slow, and they might layoff the slower production mechanics, I wouldn't take that as a judgement on anyone's abilities to learn to be a mechanic. That would be like giving a fourth grader the SAT.
Agree on the training school question. When I started at the quarry in the shop the shop itself was just being started by the guy in charge. He actually said he preferred to hire but interested people. Said that way he could train them without having to untrain them first. For the first several years that went good and every year about half the shop, 2 or 3 guys, would be sent to various factory training schools and also there would be 2 or 3 days when he would bring in people from the major dealers and give classes on our site. This lasted through a few different bosses for a few years. Then it started going downhill to where I heard one of the shop bosses say when asked buy someone above him in the company about what kind of training he offered. His reply was that we let them learn on the job from the manuals, if you send them to those factory schools they come back thinking they need all kinds of fancy tools to do the job! Then the last maybe ten years I was there about the closest thing to training was to let me go to at the most a one day "class" at the local Cat dealer that to me was more of a sales pitch for Cat ET than actually in depth training on how to use it. Maybe I'm just a slow learner but five hours of classroom lecture with about 20 other students just did not feel like I was getting an in depth understanding of how to use ET and what it could do. Especially as the limited hands on using it on any machines were machines that were very different than the ones I would be seeing back at the quarry. Then again when I finally got a computer and internet access at the shop I had to learn how to set up a spreadsheet by playing with my home computer with only a bit of help from my wife, at the time, who did have a little training at her job.
Hey, I resemble that remark.......!!
I don't envy your situation. i can't imagine trying to keep up with that many types and brands of Equipment. The cat dealers here seam to split it up so some work on heavy equipment and others work on farm equipment. Maybe there is a line that you are better at than the other, could you get them them to let you focus on that area? It is way easier to to get proficient at a few machines than be good at everything starting out. One thing I know you can't fix is a foreman that's an A-H. I also agree with the others that it takes a lot longer to be a top mechanic/tech. Most of the guys i call on are 50-60 years old and have been at it there entire lives. Try not to let it get you down. just keep learning a good guy can get a job anywhere.
Case in point-We just had a DD16 lay down at a dealer on it's way out the gate, it had a defective liner that split. It was pulled back in the shop, three weeks later it is supposedly ready to go after all six were replaced. It made it 35 miles-started missing, hammering and blew the coolant out. I towed it to another dealer and they found two piston coolers laying in the pan-broken. The young guy who originally did the work had 1 1/2 years experience, he tried to do the job without removing the coolers. But I blame the floor boss for not keeping a tight watch on his work.
Sounds like **** poor management to me. If everybody was honest about their level of experience you’d think they would know what they’re up against expectation wise. I’m almost 42, been turning wrenches for a check since I was 19. Honestly it’s only been the last few years I started to feel like I’m really in the zone so to speak. Having worked at several places along the way I can tell you the support you have, or don’t have, makes all the difference in the world as far as your level of confidence. If you went in there green, and they knew it, it’s on them to help you grow as a tech. They’re only going to get out of you what they put in. You’re there everyday working through the Covid BS trying to make a hand for them. You’ve bought tools etc and they have the nerve to say that? At my age and stage of life I’d have told them to stuff it and left. I understand what you didn’t do that and it was probably a smart move. To answer your question a little more direct....if that’s possible.... I’d expect it to take several years to pick up on general tricks and tips to make you competent at diving into most things. Sometimes that initial experience will only tell you when you’re about to get in over your head. It won’t help you fix complex things. Those first few years should teach you how to use all your tools, maybe how to make a few, how to keep from getting hurt and most importantly where to go to find the info you need to diagnose and repair. It could be the older tech there, a book, SIS, the internet or a private shop that specializes in that specific machine. Learn to find what you need. As big an a$$hat as a service writer or foreman can be a good one will make a shop run great and morale will be good as well. Sounds like there’s a lot going on there that doesn’t have a damn thing to do with you or the other mechanics.
As I have read this forum through out the years it is interesting to see how other markets do things. My dad brought me into this business of turning wrenches on equipment. And I ran with it from there. There wasn't any apprenticeship or training. Hell you were lucky if the shop you was working for had manuals or specialty tools. My dad taught me a lot, but for the most part I had to fake it until I made it. I changed jobs a lot to get more money so I could buy more tools. But I also would take manuals home and study them if something was kicking my butt. I still do that now except now it's on a computer. Being efficient at swapping parts will come with time and experience. If you want to be the man that everyone comes to for a answer learn how various systems work, hydraulics, electrical, engines, fuel systems, emissions, transmissions and a/c. For me it doesn't matter what the make or model of what you are working on. They all have the same guts. Some just put things in different order and some are over engineered. Never stop learning and you will only get better. And when you are good you can throw that middle finger up and it'll get some attention. Just be careful on how often you pull that card. You don't want a reputation of being a A-H.
It takes a lifetime Mechanics are learning every day Working at independent shops you get the same variety of brands to work on and no support at all As someone that has run shops and answers to all the complaints I will say there are plenty of slow techs some need guidance and some need a job at the parts store One year in the shop you dont even know were the tools are yet Two things that indicate horrible management at your store is the lack of keeping experienced techs and the shop being slow I have never seen a slow shop there is no corona slow down around here construction is wide open, farmers are in the field and trucks never slow down and Cat is about a week out to get in the shop If your managers treats you guys that way imagine how the customers are treated might enplane the slow shop Honestly I would have found another job over the weekend if you do stay then work hard don't goof off in the shop eat sleep and breath wrenching keep a daily log so you can show what you have been doing if you get called in Unless writing essays is part of your job description I would let tell him to go check with mother cat as to how long it takes to make money in fact I would get your assignment in writing and forward it up the chain anyways
Yes 76 inches max width. Two guys have 84 inch epiqs and it is a sore subject among us other guys
I must know the story behind this. Is the shop small? Or is it a d!@k measuring contest and causing trouble amongst everyone? I had work with mechanics that think that the bigger the box the better mechanic they are. And I worked with some that would look at you with disdain for having anything but a snapon whatever it may be.
one thing I should clear up is this is not coming from any management in the store but from the head office. The foreman we have is in the office mostly but he does know his stuff quite well and will reach out to other locations if needed, a bit of an a hole but it's livable, sometimes. The other big problem is there is no efficiency program here straight hourly pay and while I'm sure individual technician efficiency is tracked not a single guy in the shop has seen theirs or even had it showed to them in a performance review.
Shop is 6 bays and can fit two tractors or dozers in a bay but yes it's getting cramped. Word from the store manager is that the company won't add on unless we start a night shift, despite having 12 acres of grass they could build on
It sounds like they want you to provide a time frame that they can use against you when corporate starts pushing for layoffs, and any push back will probably put you #1 for the chopping block. It's going to be a lose-lose situation if your management is putting it directly onto you guys instead of telling you what's to be expected in performance (even if unreasonable) and keeping corporate off your ass. Your job is to to turn wrenches, not worry about book keeping and front office politics on top of it all. That said, even 5 years is still green for how fast the industries change, how shops want to take on EVERY piece of equipment that comes through the door (with no manuals and no way to plug in), and how no one wants to pay for training to retain people (especially if it makes you worth more). Be open to moving around shops (and specific industries), it will make you more valuable in the long run. You have kids/family/debt holding you in place?
First, if you are at a dealership with 7 techs and only one has over 4 years of experience I would have to say the dealership has a major problem. If they can't keep guys then they are not treating them fairly. Also, are you and your fellow "inexperienced" techs treating this as a job, or as a career? So many just want to put in their time and go home and party or what ever. If you want to excel at your job sometimes you have to study after hours. I'm self employed and have been for over 35 years and I also work on most any piece of construction equipment that comes along. I would dare say that I spend an hour 3 out of 5 nights a week reading up on things or looking for parts. I know it sounds like the management is not the best but that might just require extra effort on the techs part. It might not be alot of fun, but sometimes that's life, just hang in there.
That's not right. Everyone should have a face-to-face with their direct supervisor at least once a year to discuss their performance over the last 12 months. After discussion both people sign it and it goes in the personnel file. That's the way it works.
Ugh! I’m glad I’m self employed. OP’s scenario would have gotten me jail time.
Nah, that's why there's wheels on that tool box.
It was said, u don’t have to know everything BUT u DO NEED to know where the answers are.!! How true, how true.. I can’t count how many times a tech would ask me a question that was/is in the rebuild manual but were to dam lazy to go look it up.. I WOULD answer the question but I would walk them over to the “library”, open the manual and SHOW THEM where the answers were..(torque specs, rotation, fireing order, etc) & what makes u feel good is when u “catch them” w they’re nose in the manual OR showing another tech the manual.!! Like I said, u DONT have to know everything, u just have to know WHERE the answers are.!!
That requires ambition.
I would have done them the favor and drug up doesnt sound like there is anything to learn at that outfit but excuses There are better places to work as a dealer efficiency should be available to you at the drop of a hat they dont want you to get better they want to be able to charge more for you or pay you less
By the time you learn how to do the job your body will be to old to do it.
The only way to beat these words is to study outside the job. With a manual or other source, you can learn in minutes, something that might take hours or days of wrenching... if ever. ( I don't wrench for a living, but I have complete manuals for every piece of heavy equipment owned. And have read through each page, to know where to look and speak from a point of knowledge)
To continue the previous post... For instance... There is no way without a manual I could know to access the technician menu of the my tractor ECM. "Left turn signal 4 times then right signal then 1 left turn" That's a thousand monkeys working over a thousand lifetimes to get that through trial & error... if they knew it was available. It was on one page of a 991 page manual. OP … Your shop must have some manuals for the equipment you work on. Study them as each machine comes in. It's an opportunity to review the manual with the machine. Together, you will learn more than studying one without the other.
There is one item not mentioned {the- knack}. Without it-It means you will have to work twice as hard to acquire it. But it can be acquired over time, you just have to really want it. As far as your office goes that's company politics [which you want to stay out of because the inside of that office smells}.
Like Junkyard , mid 40's and I feel like i am nearly there . Been repairing , altering and operating ag and construction gear all my life , but mostly repairing . If you want to be good ,I recon you need to be naturally inclined, keen to learn, interested in what you are at (full concentration ) and read everything you can get your hands on .
I have six years of experience. I am not “good” time wise. I am very good quality wise. I am very good at doing the job right. I am very good at learning the tasks. I am very good at being able to find the answers to my problems and questions on my own. I am very good at innovating to solve problems. I have been told by multiple people in higher positions that “flat rate” quoted hours in our system are screwed up due to adjustments, being taken from supervisors “best guesses” etc and that the flat rate jobs should have additional time for stuff like hood/sheet metal removal, cab removal, cooling pack removal, etc but then they turn around and assign flat rate jobs without adding those sections to it. They don’t allow for seized and broken fasteners or pins. We have a core product line, allied product lines, various random manufacturers, etc. Our core line alone has 30+ families which are all constantly changing so what worked for one often doesn’t work for the next iteration. Sometimes they push the efficiency BS but I think all the numbers are massaged to a great degree. Other times we go months without hearing about it
The truck on the trailer just got here 4 hrs ago after a stint in 2 diff.shops to the tune of just under 9000 dollars and still won't run for more than 30-45 mins.without going to limp so I had it brought home .a small ind.shop& myself will find out what's going on that a oem so-called garage could not after 8 days of guessing. part of why my last post read the way it did
Unless things have changed when it comes to warranty work, it has always been cut short. It's bolts off bolts on, no time slotted for anything else.
You will be a student till the day you retire . With all the different equipment and changes to said equipment ,you should be learning something new every day.
But it is so much easier if you have already been in a while. That way the changes seem incremental and not all thrown at you at once in a big mess. When I started things had computers to run the injection pump, ABS and a few other things, but mostly mechanical, and of course the old mechanical stuff was still around to provide you with plain experience on the simple stuff in between computer glitches, to clear the mind. Nowadays it is always interconnected computer nonsense it seems. And there is a general lack of access to manufacturers' smart guys nowadays if you get stuck. You have to build up a network of who to call for help and that takes years and decades.
I've heard that scenario before but not the way it was where I worked for 40+ years. I'm trying to remember one time in all that time where I was given a formal evaluation where I signed off on anything of that nature! I could be wrong but seem to recall saying something to one of my supervisors at one time about an evaluation and I got a reply something like "You're doing good no complaints!"
I was referring to the world of Cat dealers, because I thought that’s where the OP was working c
Understood, but being the outfit I worked for all those years, especially the last half of them, was a very large multi-national company one might expect them to run more like a major company than a small mom and pop three man operation! Actually the first few years were better before the merger fever got going, the President of the company if he didn't know you by sight probably knew your father by name and what he did in the plant.
I disassembled the roll around cart at the hospital nursery. My mom placed my 1 1/2 year older sister inside the playpen, and me outside, to save her from certain destruction. Evidently climbing out was no problem but I couldn't get back in. The kintergarden paint easel never had a chance. At 8 years old, the red snapper lawn mower met its demise. High school was a rolling revolution of vehicles from a 67 cutlass complete with green seat cover and two mismatched doors, to a '72 chevy c-10 with 307 and no bed, with mud sprayed all over the back windows. To this day, I can dismantle virtually anything, usually with just a big hammer and torch. So- while some of my skills were innate at birth, it has taken me a lifetime to gain the knowledge to really do a excellent job of tearing all the pieces apart. Putting things back together and having them work correctly? That's still a roll of the dice for me. A toolbox size restriction sounds stupid- why would they care how big your storage is for your personal tools? Why should those guys have to get rid of their $15,000 toolboxes? Asking the employees when they are going to be worth what they are paid, sounds like a invitation to load up the toolbox for the next job. They knew how much experience you had when they hired you, that's their fault, not yours. Ask them when they are going to get smart enough- to not have a shop full of guys- all with under 4 years of experience. You guys lack of experience is all on the hiring department, not you.
This sounds like an opening for a bunch of pay cuts or lay-offs coming.
I've been in this game over a decade. It's only been in the last year or so that I've really felt like I'm getting "good" at what I do. I constantly learn and I still have those "humbling moments" (although less frequently than in the first year or two). All you can do is show up on time every day and give it your best. The only way to get better is to do it, make the odd mistake, move on and keep learning.
This sounds like the reasons I no longer work at neither of the dealers i spend time at.
Just an update the suits apparently tried this at a location that was in the union [ours is not] and the union reeled them up real fast
Have you been able to speak to anyone at that location to find out what their rebuttal was when management tried it on with them..?
For most trades there is continual learning and the people that want to be skilled craftsman will take all they they can get. Some people just want to put in time and get paid. There has to be experienced people to mentor the newbie's. If there isn't there is no way the shop can be efficient. First thing to do is get good at your job, then you can work on doing it faster. Quality over quantity. Very few people are both good and fast. The ones that are have usually been doing it for decades. This is changing though with more technology coming in the last 20-25 years it's hard for anyone to keep up. When I was welding I worked in a couple shops where a few guys thought it was a race. One guy would put 2 passes where 3 were specified on the blueprints. Then he'd stand around like he was the king or something. That makes a huge difference when welding cross members on a 10 ton skid and certainly doesn't meet the engineers requirements. Another shop a guy was too busy trying to show off he wasn't paying enough attention. He did 8 or 9 root passes on vessels in record time before going on holidays. 6 of them failed X-ray after the complete seams were welded up. I got stuck having to grind them out and fix them. In the end it took almost 3 times longer plus the additional costs of having the X-ray techs. come back. When things are booming you can quit and get another job. When things are slow it might not be an option. Shops can't expect everybody to be the worlds greatest in the least amount of time, especially with no training or experienced mentors.
Dont forget to work safe ,especially if you are being rushed . To be good you need to keep a good clear head ,10 fingers ,as many toes as possible and everything inbetween. I do believe in a bit of physical exertion but with care .Mind your posture and do not kneel on the bare ground .
I was a second year apprentice (Heavy Duty Mechanic Canada) we had a very knowledgeable mechanic quit. The position needed to be filled. I asked another mechanic who I respected very much “how long to replace him with all his experience”? He said, how long has he been here? I said 22 years. His response was, it will 22 years to replace that experience. I always remember that.
Welder Dave ,that story reminds me of the old saying “ don’t have time to do it right the first time,but have time to do it over two or three times.”
Over the years I have often asked employees did ya lose any sleep over that last night? Referring to some challenge on the job ,kind of weeds out who is on your side and whos just there for the check. The ones who lost some sleep generally come to work the next day with a plan good or bad maybe ,the others just come and ask you whats next.
I can remember more than once waking up in the middle of the night and either remembering something I had forgot to check during the day or having something pop into my mind of something to be sure to check the next day!
Many times I've fought with something and couldn't figure it out. Maybe from being tired or over frustrated it takes over your thought process. Those are the times you just have to leave it and have a fresh start the next day. 9 times out of 10 when you come back with a clear head something clicks and you figure it out or you come on here and someone else has done it that can help you.
Nan that is the truth happens to me more often than not
The problem I have now is I can respond to posts but the Post New Thread box doesn't show up so I can't start a new thread. It shows up in shop talk but no other forums. Anybody else have this problem? I think I figured it out. Had something to do with my internet security settings.
Just did a quick check and if I click on "Forums" up at top of the page and then scroll down to say "Track Loaders" over towards the right of the page there is a Blue tab that says "Start New Thread" or something to that idea and I click on that a box opens up where I can fill in the "Subject" for the new thread and then fill in the text box. I have not started many new Threads lately but that is what I think I usually do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ And this is another way I can do it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Say you just want to start a new thread and you are already in the section you want to start a new thread, for instance "shop talk" click on the tab where the red arrow is pointing to "Shop Talk" That should take you to the next screen like below and there is the blue tab the red arrow is pointing at. Click on that and the box to put the title in and the text box should appear. If those don't work I'm not sure what to say!
I think what happened is somehow in Shop talk the blue box is on the right side above the first thread. In the other forums the blue box is above the green notice. It always used to be above the first thread.
I started fresh out of trade school, had mechanical aptitude and was thrown to the sharks in a Flat Rate shop first off. In that condition its sink or swim learn fast or leave, several did the latter. Being "Good" I likely do not fit the descriptor, took on any and all work I could sign up for in the early days, fought to make money learn everything I could, burnt out by 40. Still have my tools, STILL wrench on my own junk and have ceased with paying customers so my opinion may not be worth much. You will need classroom training, paid for by Shop or out of your own pocket, the "Shop" you described sounds as half the small operations I had worked around where 80% of my practical time was in the dirt in the weather and OUTSIDE on site jobs. Shops were off and on but road duty was most profitable. I used to have manuals for nearly every machine I had to put a wrench to, many sold to those that followed behind me. Whining not working enough skilled repairs does not cut it, know several guys spent two years cleaning sorting and inspecting parts to be presented to 15+year journeymen for the actual work. Same guys started Bottom Rung one rung up at a time where one now runs that very shop as Floor Foreskin. I traded the wear and tear, burnt out for a different career and stepped to retire a few years back, still wrench, still offer advice, still remembering where I came from and the **** I had to wade thru to get here.
When I worked at united airlines we had a new hanger and they did not want us to have role always just dog boxes. They gave up on that when guys had to go home to get the tools they needed.