I am doing a large ditch, 2800' long. Most of it is going to be 6' deep, maybe even a little more. I am using the 240 with a 60" ditching bucket. I was able to work for 4 hrs today, got about 330' done so far. I am placing the spoils behind me so the path stays open for traffic. Couple questions come to mind. I think my cutting edge is worn out. It is a well used bucket, and the bottom of the cutting edge is well rounded. Also, i notice the machine has to apply a lot of down pressure to get the cutting edge to bite into the clay. I wonder whether a new cutting edge would help with the speed or ease of running the bucket. Also, its hard to dig a proper ditch when the ditchbank blocks your view. I can get the depth right but i would like to get a wider flat bottom. I wonder if my machine will even do a ditch this deep? I likely just don't know how to do it properly. I could use some good tips on how i can do a better job here. Thanks a lot guys. :beatsme
a nice cutting edge will make things easier, less scratching to get to grade and its easier to get things looking good with a nice straight cutting edge. I like to paint a line on the far side of the ditch, where the slope starts then just shape up a section the width of the bucket, check and make sure its good, then just follow that on down the line. my last pass or two i use the bottom of the cutting edge or heal of the bucket to smooth things up. I usually try to position the machine so i can sight down the slope.
You could set up in line and dig the ditch with a bucket the width of the bottom and then you have your far toe and your near toe. Then paint a line at your far top of ditch and near top of ditch. Start your slopes perfect then you can match the existing as you pull the slopes. One tip is to line the back of your bucket with the slope then you will have a nice even slope not a concave slope. I would use a pipe laser for line and grade.
I slept on it and i think what i'm going to try is dig the far bank with the machine away from the ditch, then move the machine closer and dig the bottom and near bank from where i can see what i'm doing.
Looking at the ditch you are doing there, I think I'd attack it a different way. If in the last pic its 6' deep, then its 18' wide. That means with no flat bottom its a 1.5:1 slope. I'd look at setting the machine in line with the ditch, just like you were straight line trenching, and put your regular 4 or 5' bucket on and move dirt. Then finish it with a tracked skidsteer or finish dozer in the ditch. The other You could also grab an i beam in your thumb and and walk back up the ditch bank after you roughed it out and clean it with that. I think you would be much faster with that amount of dirt to move if you kept the hoe in line with the ditch where you would be maximizine the machine. Digging over the side you have to be gentle or the machine will slide on the snow, unless you have your tracks the other way, if so your spending all your time re-positioning and not digging. Another good thing to do is look at red dots' masterpieces he digs with a trapizoidal bucket... the slopes are close just alot deeper. just my .03 american dollars
Red dots' work makes mine look like it was dug with dynamite! ointhead Maybe you're right there. Maybe i should put my 30" trenching bucket on, get down to grade and form a flat bottom, carve away at the sides, then come back with the ditching bucket to clean up the sides and make it pretty. It's worth a try, i have lots of ditch to experiment on here.
watglen...first of all..thanks for the nice words..now on to your project..from the looks of your pics it looks like your digging a simple drainage ditch..maybe one that will have no pipe in it?, like it will stay open awhile?..ok..lets go from there. first of..a 60" bucket, digging in that clay will give you very poor down pressure with a cutting edge, something that wide with no teeth in clay just works that way..maybe get the bulk out with a traditional bucket, then use ol smoothy for dress up?.. also, what Tylermckee said..a paint line on the farside to keep you consistent and maybe paint or a row of grade stakes on your side also...consistency is very important for a long ditch..also make sure where your sitting is flat and level as that will transfer to your bucket angle..ie, if your rightaway is rough so will be the bottom of your trench, also what Tylermckee says..do one set perfect..spend a little time on it..when its what you want then use it as a kinda template for your other sets..as in move forward another bucket length, making sure your not swinging to the right or left as this throws off the angle. then when you get most of it out come back and trace your previous set..i know, i know its time consuming going back and forth but the resuls are usually nice..i prefer to never dig sideways as it takes twice as long..also what SRE says..maybe dig it like a traditional ditch..leaving enough behind to trim with..dig 1k feet..go back to a sideways thing to finish, then repeat..if its a ditch that will take pipe, then your going to backfill it..well who cares about all the pretty stuff?..pretty don't pay more
Well i finally got a chance to get back at 'er and low and behold, it is exactly twice as fast to rough dig the canal with the digging bucket from the end of the ditch. I made 160'/hr this aft. Bucket cycles are 18 seconds. Next question is how fast can i dress it up and bring it to grade.
I bet you would get even more done if you took that narrow 30" off and replaced it with a 48" The 30 is a narrower than it is deep and clay doesn't like to release from narrow width buckets very well. You would also be picking up a third more volume with a 48
I dunno if you have it in your budget but a wrist makes that stuff alot easier and alot cleaner too... but there around 15,000 then you can sit square to the ditch and only swing a quarter of a swing to place spoil
i allways replace the cutting edge when they have rounded of.makes life easier for the machine and easier to do a better job.keep 2 graders for one of my machines,one for digging and a worn one for grading nick.,....
Stumpjumper, I am running a nice big 54" 2.25. Working really well in the clay. Deertime, a wrist, a wrist, my kingdom for a wrist bucket! All i want for Christmas is a wrist bucket! We'll find out today just how much better we do with the new cutting edge. I did alright on that thing. My local bucket mfr charged me $500(cdn), hardware included for a 66" x10" x1" reversible edge, and my local fab shop put it on for $200. The bucket needed holes. Only took 1 day. Beautiful!
Thats what made me think you were runnin a 30"
Back at her today. New cutting edge on 66" ditching bucket. I cleaned up and finished the 320' i roughed out yesterday. I also cleaned up the pathway behind me, for vehicle traffic. Yesterday the 320' took 2hrs. Today, i put another 2.5 hrs into it. The major factor with the ditching bucket is figuring out how to make a pass without spoils falling back into the hole. Gotta keep it tidy somehow. I figured out how to make a pass and use the underside of the bucket to push the dirt away from the edge of the hole before pulling up and out. Its a little trick but it works. I also have come to the conclusion that to make the best time i have to rough the hole out as close as possible to the finished grade and profile. This way i only have one skim pass to make with the ditching bucket. As there will be less dirt falling in the hole too. The ditch is about 20% done at this point
Digging with a pale is Ok but wihtout a wrist there is no way you can compete against a wrist, its ok if you do it once and a while but if you do alot of trimming you cant beat a tilt!
I have 1400' done so far, and i have reached the summit! FINALLY! The winter weather prevents me from getting many hours out of a day. The sun goes down in the bush around 4:30 pm. Plus, i had to take a few days off around Christmas and whatnot. Anyway, here are some pics of what is done so far. The pics don't really do it justice, it looks better in person. Its about 6' deep all along there. I cut a swale into the pathway for some surface water coming out of the bush. I am confined by the trees on both sides of the path, so i can't dig directly in line. However, digging inline has turned out faster than digging from the side, especially when sitting on ice. So i sit inline with my right track marking the left edge of the bank, and dig on an angle, which gives a sawtooth in the far bank. I kinda mush that smooth with the ditching bucket on the second pass. The first pass goes to final grade, and i try to leave a bit on both banks so i have something to dig into to do the final shaping. On day one I was using the ditching bucket from the side. This gave rounded bottom at grade. However, any other ditches i have seen have a flat bottom. This gives more capacity at grade, and allows for some side creep. Once i started digging inline, i got the flat bottom i wanted. Another detail that has worked well is i pull a notch along the top of the near bank. I found this helps a lot to prevent spoils falling back into the finished ditch downgrade when i pull out with the ditching bucket. Anything that wants to fall off the edge of the ditching bucket ends up lodging and filling the notch, instead of tumbling back into the ditch bottom. This speeds things up a lot. since i never have to go back and grab any large balls of clay from an otherwise perfect looking clean ditch. I'm also trying to clear a wide path behind me. This is one of those deals where the landowner wants wants wants but won't pay pay pay. So instead of doing picture perfect, i'm going for functional and fast. I just want it good enough so a rubber tired tractor can pass. The path i'm working in is infested with saplings, and i spend a bit of time dealing with those, just to help save my paint, and glass. Also, there is the odd large oak across the ditch from me, where i have to be careful not to get my boom(and hoses) into. I tear the limbs off if i have to. So the final numbers are coming in at 72'/hr 5-6 feet deep. Slope is .1% ( the minimum my laser will go) Water is running fast. Everything is coming together now, and it looks like the grade i am on is going to work out perfect. :drinkup
Keep up the good work !
looks good, glad to see the water running.
looks good
I talked to the owner, he wants the job done now (as opposed to waiting till he can free up some cash) So i went and picked up $900 worth of culverts and delivered them to site. I used my 3500 and float to carry the 20' lengths. Question What would y'all do about charging up the culverts and the delivery fee? I guess i have the affliction of wanting to apologize for charging for service. That's just stupidity on my part.
I'd charge the time it took to go get them for sure. And I'd probably check to see if I was getting a 10% cut at the yard and keep that too. If the farmer wanted to pick them up, he could have. And why give your diesel and time away for free?
I was thinking that what i should do is charge him the price of the nearest retailer. I drove a distance to pick them up at a wholesaler, and got a decent discount. I figured that makes sense.
10% of the culverts + the hourly rate one way from pickup to drop off, its fair. In all the owner has to understand that all you are doing is paying wear and tear on your truck aswell as making your wage and proffit out of it. Aslong as your not charging 190hr for your rig i think its reasonable
Hi Watglen, Looks like your getting along just fine and have done a good chunk of the job. I have read the earlier posts and I think I'm right in saying your using a 24 tonne excavator. If that's correct a ditching blade with teeth and minimum width of 6ft would rip into that ditch no problem with a 24 tonne behind it, 60" bucket is to small for ditching. As for giving yourself the best view , the best way is to use some of the stiffer clay to level in front of you this will give a higher view point and a level stance to work the bottom. Another option if you find it better working in line is to use a Tapered ditching bucket ( V bucket ) , this way you will get a finish as you work and won't have to go back with a ditching blade and rework and tidy up the ditch. Not my favourite method, with a ditching blade you can work the ditch and level the dirt at the same time. Jobs like this can be rushed through, though the more time and effort put in the better the job. Good luck Robo
Well, i finished tonight. Learned a crapload on this job! Learned all about cleaning tracks, and keeping them clean, and how long to expect to spend doing it. Learned how to keep the oil in my final drives, and how to baby those seals. Learned how to dig a decent profile, with a nice flat clean bottom. As much as this job was a total pita, i will put everything i learned in my notes for the next job. The next job will go better. By better i mean my estimate will more closely match the actual. I still have one quick question. I kept track of my actual digging time. How do i charge for a total of 16hrs (about an hour/day) spent greasing, fueling, checking and topping up oils, CLEANING TRACKS, warming up, cooling down, changing buckets, setting up the laser, and surveying. I have heard some guys charge an hour a day for such activities. At what rate? What do you think is the appropriate way to handle this?
Greasing, checking oils, setting up the laser, and cleaning the tracks are all part of operating a machine, cleaning the tracks is part of operating a machine in a cold environment, charge standard hourly rate for doing so.
I may be off base to some here, but I figure the best way to charge out those hrs is this, If the engine is runnning or you're in the seat or you're doing the grade work you are on the clock. Changing buckets means you are still on the clock, fueling, greasing, start of the day fluid checks off the clock, unless startup is required to check fluid levels. In short my feeling is that if the machine is running it is costing you money if it is sitting idle. As for rate well time is time... I just try to keep it to a responsible minimum so that nobody feels they are getting jipped. Seems to work well for me, and I've never heard any gripes.
I was thinking the same thing Monte. Those 16 hrs are basically idling time. I was breaking my back in the ice and wind and snow, but the machine was just warming or whatever. Part of me thinks those hours should be at a reduced rate, but another part of my thinks that sub zero operations need to be done at a premium to cover all the extra problems the cold can create. Starting the machine up at 10 below has to be hard on the engine and pump. Warm ups are extended. It all takes time. Plus, if the finals dump their oil and i don't catch it, it would ruin my whole year! That is a wintertime problem. I think what is fair is bill the 16 hours at 1/2 the normal rate. That way i get something for all the aggrevation. Plus i learned a lot. By the end of the job i learned how to make the ice and frozen mud no problem at all. It didn't start out that way. Next time i will tell the customer that there is a hour/day surcharge from Nov 15 to 1 Apr. I would like to hear more opinions on this though.
In this day and age actually coming out and telling there is a surcharge won't go over well. It will be met with "oh great another one of those blankety surcharges wish I could be on the other end of the surcharge instead of having to pay them" Know what I mean? When I get to where I am working, I've already got in mind what it is that I want to get done for the day and it is "gonna happpen" sort of mentallity. With this in mind I set to fueling, greasing, and pre startup checks. then the "responsible" portion of the startup when the clock starts, the engine cranking and warm up. tracks should be free of mud already so a clank here and there of the hammer and tracks are free and ready to roll. Simple as that. I don't know that there are any customers who would complain about that system.:my2c In short, don't get into the surcharge game, just charge straight through hrs. or figure that into your bid if you know about how long it takes to get going in the morning and clean up in the afternoon.
Good points Monte
Just bill by the hour meter on your machine and don't think twice about it. The value of a used machine is based on age and hours on the meter. You'll never see an ad for a machine where they give you a breakdown on warmup hours and work hours.
That's the best logic so far....
Just replying to get upgraded here,nice forum and great ditch
I thought I would get this thread going again, just because I finished another long new ditch for a guy, and I have been thinking about how to do a better job. This one is 1750', near end is through bush. Ditch profile suffered once we started hitting stump holes and mud, but we did the best we could. I would have dug from the end, but i figured I would have to maintain a path alongside so i could go back and finish the profile. The ditch was through standing corn, space was at a premium. So i dug from the side with a smooth edge, spoil pile immediately next to ditch. Ocallavision II held grade pretty good. .1%slope, and recent rains left almost no standing water. Ditch could have held a better line, and the banks could have held a more consistent slope. Just keep practicing. In the pic we start installing 12" smoothwall, outlet is 7'3" to invert below grade, so we moved a pile of dirt. Notice my cutting edge, seems to work pretty well for bedding pipe. I came across a picture perfect perimeter swale dug by someone, it was so nice I had to go take a closer look. It was done with a wrist bucket as far as i can tell. Only a foot or two deep, must have hauled the spoils. Just bloody gorgeous, perfect bottom. Damn thing looked like it was done on a milling machine. Learned a lot about grease on this job too. I use exon mobile moly grease. Stuff warms up and starts to run down the stick. Pins get warm. Moved to something called Paragon3000, which specs out a lot higher, about as high as anything I could find on the web. Too soon to tell if it's any better, but it can't hurt. It isn't much more than the moly i have been using, so its worth it.
Watglen, I just finished reading this thread, and regarding how to charge for the time spent greasing, shoveling tracks, warm up etc., I adjust my hourly rate to cover such things before quoting a job (if it is by the hour). We de a bunch of work in the winter, with temperatures well below zero and mud to clean out of the tracks everynight (you only skip that step once). We still only charge for the time the machine is productive, but add perhaps 5$ per hour for the time required to do the non-productive work. If we have to have a generator on site to plug machines in we charge additionally for that. It is often a double edged sword, in that sometimes any work in the winter is hard to come by so you are grateful for it, but the cost to do the work in the winter is greater and that needs to be considered. I find that if people do not see every little item, like greasing and shoveling tracks, on the invoice they don't feel as if they are being nickel & dimed to death. Adjusting the hourly rate to compensate for the extra expense works well for my clients and me.
That ditch sure looks a lot bigger with someone standing in it. A question though, are you putting in culvert and filling it back in? If so, why bother with the round bottom trench?
Yeah, behind my rod man is the outlet pipe already buried. We are working on the first section of dual wall smoothwall pipe. In Ontario, there is legislation that governs the install of farm drainage tile (In Ontario you can cop a murder plea, but if you install farm tile without a license your screwed!) and one of the rules is how the tile is supported in the trench. They want to see it supported at the haunches, if that means anything to you. Plus, I have dug up 12" pipe I installed on a flat bottom trench and it ovals in just a few years. So the specially shaped tooth cuts a groove that will support every size tile up to 12". On this install, we backfilled and bedded with granular A (3/4" crusher run) so that it was perfectly supported before the dirt was placed on top. It worked out great. Ken
Thanks. Around here you either push dirt over it or bed it in with drain rock, or in the case of a culvert 1 1/2 or 3/4 minus.
Have you gotten certfied yet,or are you working on that now.I thought you have to work under someone else before you could get certfied??? Lots of rules for everything any more.Are you a member of LICA?? Has good info for different areas,plus there is also the Drainage Contractors magazine that has great articles for reading to help.Looks like you getting some experience.Good luck
Construct O I haven't got certified yet, though I have taken all the training courses. There are a couple loopholes in the legislation, one being that work done on your own land isn't covered. Lease land is the same. Also, the contractor doesn't need the operating license if he hires a licensed operator to oversee the work. There are licensed operators available, but you kind of have to struggle and really beat the bushes to find them. They are pretty old, busy, and in demand. In all there are 3 levels of licensing required. The plow has a license, the machine operator has a license, and the business has a license. What about yourself, any pics of your gear to share? Ken
Ken here we don't have to be certified.Altho have been doing it for a long time.Most of the machines right in this area is wheel machines not plows.Will try to attach a link to the Drainage Contractor website.It has a lot of info,but maybe you already know about it is from your area. http://www.drainagecontractor.com/ I have read about your rules and regulations.Not all bad,but also makes hard for young guys to get started.Basicly if you buy a company out that about the only way you can get your foot in the door looks like.Might get around and post some time,just need to scan some picture and never seem to have or take the time. They will have a field day here in August at Melburne,Iowa that has lots of equipment to see and run.Iowa LICA sponsors it and owns the ground that it is held on.Plus i think there is also some of the same stuff ,during the summer in your area.
Here is a few pictures!
I have never seen a wrist bucket in use, so perhaps someone could elaborate. How would I dig this ditch if i had one. I have priced them. Mucho dinero. Not many on the used market, likely because everyone is picking them up, not selling them. Also, regarding the bucket itself, there seems to be several different designs. Which is best?