How do you find out if a piece of equipment has a lien or other concern? We are looking at an excavator and will be paying cash so we can not depend on the bank to protect us and make sure there is no lien. We are in Alabama, but from what I understand no state has titles for heavy equipment. Thanks Granny DP DPForumDog
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I wonder if this website could be of help ? $30.00 but there is a disclaimer that says there is no guarentee. https://www.ner.net/solutions/ironcheck/ I am not so concerned that the machine was stolen but i would want to make sure if we give the guy the money he goes and pays off his loan. (or that there may be a blanket lien against it)
Maybe you would have better luck investigating the seller, I wonder if there’s any way to pull a credit report? Maybe talk to the police or sheriff for assistance?
There might be a UCC filing of the lien in the county where the seller is located. On a bill of sale signed by both parties, you would state explicitly that the equipment is free and clear of all liens and encumbrances. That helps if one exists and you have to sue.
are you using cash or cashers check, if cash you have 50 % chance its stolen or wanted by the bank.. ( On a bill of sale signed by both parties, you would state explicitly that the equipment is free and clear of all liens and encumbrances. That helps if one exists and you have to sue. ) this a good idea if you can find them when it happens, but the machine goes back to the lender and you are back using a shovel.. -- just my 2 cents --
Or get a Title company to research the cat that's selling the machine . " Word on the street ….. " If the seller is a little shady the county courthouse will have records and verbal opinions . https://smallbusiness.chron.com/duties-roles-title-company-23536.html
Do title insurance companies cover equipment as they do real estate ? Perhaps tracing ownership from the first selling dealer ...
Title companies in my area do real estate titles only as far as I know. I have never heard or read that there has ever been titles issued on excavating equipment. Anytime someone buys from a private seller they are at the mercy of how honest that seller is.
I did work hauling 'repo' equipment for an asset recovery outfit and never did one that wasn't from the original borrower, though the guys that did the tracking down of the asset (recovery agents) had stories of panicked folks that bought from the original borrower thinking they had stolen property and would loose it. If I remember correctly the lender sent some legal-y letter saying that they had bought equipment that was used as collateral and they may be called when/if the lender took the borrower to court. Equipment is also be used to secure things like business lines of credit. I know that if you sell a non-titled asset that is used as collateral and default your financial life is pretty much done, forever. Some of those lenders are pretty ruthless getting their money back. Wife's car? sure. Her wedding ring? That'll work too. Unplug the Xbox kid, daddy didn't pay his loan and sold the asset, which, we believe, he used proceeds of said sale to purchase these items.
It is fairly difficult sometimes to know who owns/ed it. A friend of mine back in 73 or 74 got a call to move a Triple 6 Koehring from a site in western Washington to the docks for movement to Alaska. Which he did directly, like any move when in the heavy haul gig. A year or two later he found himself discussing that move with a FBI agent who related to him that the stolen machine had been found in Alaska apparently broken for parts. The agent took all the information, who, what, when and where and left. They contacted him later and indicated he wasn't going to be charged for his part of the theft. He was understandably concerned. It is very difficult to know the chain of ownership and trying to determine liens from cities, counties, and other financial interests..
On the flip side, if you do buy it and it turns out there was a lien on it, what are the odds of them locating it?
what brand Is it, I have looked at a couple cats and called the cat dealer and found out where they were sold and any history of repairs on the machines that was done thru cat shops
I think the odds are pretty good they will find it. Crummy laid out what happens. When the lien holder sets the dogs on the borrower he is gone tell every detail he has about the sale to save his a##.
I had a business law class in college which was very interesting. One point of note is the owner of property remains the owner regardless of who has current possession. You could buy something in good faith and if it is stolen and then located, that’s your loss. Contrary to the old saying “finders keepers.....”
There is no tracing authority for non titled equipment. Titles and tracking has been argued over for many many years and have never gotten close to becoming a law or regulation anywhere that I know of. The only thing that can be checked is for a UCC filing in the state where the machine is located. The problem with that is if it is stolen in another state and moved you won't know which state to do your UCC check. You might try to find out if an insurance company might have a claim against a machine and all of them do have access to data bases of stolen equipment but I have yet to find any of them that would share that information with anyone. Mr. Canfield is correct about ownership never ends on a stolen property. Problem with that theory is that I've looked at machines with no serial numbers or other identifying marks. How you gonna prove it was yours? I looked at a mini excavator a couple of years ago that even had the numbers on the engine ground off and all the tags missing. It's a shame on the title thing as equipment being trucked generally has to stop at state lines and could be identified easily. But everyone is afraid the tax man would catch them so until it becomes unprofitable for insurance companies to insure equipment, everyone will pay in the form of high premiums.
Here's a real life example of a guy that bought a stolen Deere compact tractor at auction.
If anyone can't find the hidden link in John's post here is the video.
Thanks - the forum software does a great job of hiding links.
It makes me wonder how many of them we have missed in other threads. To post a YouTube video -- Right click anywhere on the video and a little screen pops up. Choose copy video URL option. Then simply paste the url in your HEF post. The same method can be used on videos posted here on HEF to ! To check it out go up to the previous video and right click on it and the popup will appear. Ok, I am done hijacking this thread.
I've posted NER on here before. (I DO NOT work for NER & have no connection to them other than customer...FTR). I've used them several times in my business and they're very helpful and honest about their service, their abilities, and even their limitations. They also have additional services for larger purchases where it makes financial sense ($100,000 or larger). But even they will tell you that their $30 search doesn't include the endless number of 'C, D, F' credit places that could have an item under a blanket lien. Frankly, even having been in the industry for 10 years I wasn't aware that those low quality credit lenders routinely blanket lien borrowers other items...as in ALL of them. Some lesser valued items are probably not listed and not worth them pursuing if default happened. Bigger ticket purchases are worth the research!!! I've asked for this to be pinned as well as I think it's a critical issue in our industry as you could be watching 'YOUR' new tractor drive down the road like the guy in the video or 'BUYING IT TWICE'. (Admins have never replied to my other email...I'm starting to think this board isn't moderated much? If it is, please see my email). BUYER BEWARE!!! And as the video says, you could probably get away with this for...ever? But know that type of behavior helps make a market for your stolen tractor, giving thieves and crooks the idea they too can find buyers for the tractor they steal from you or your buddies. ALSO, be aware that people can and have sold tractors that they did not own, or have not yet stolen. So when you meet someone on a job site or a yard, it may not be their tractor they're showing you. My old boss bought 3 Case backhoes from CA that were not yet stolen. They were only stolen after he wired money for them (He had called all the CA law enforcement to check that prior to wiring money). It didn't matter, they were still stolen and treated just like if he had bought them if they had stolen them prior to purchase. A. Always get a picture ID, take a photo with your phone. I've even recorded people as we discuss the sale to have 'record and be clear' about the purchase. B. Always get a signed bill of sale. Serial number / hours / statement of free from liens. C. If you have any questions at all, 'too good to be true', reluctance or questions about the seller, it's best to research first. Ask a lot of questions. "Where did you buy it?" "How long have you owned it?" "Who has done any repair work on it?" "Why are you selling it?" "Who do you bank with?" ***IF they don't have answers or good answers...pass. Don't be afraid to call their banker or the dealership that represents the tractor in the area. Paying the $30 to NER is always a great idea as well. D. Never assume that 'they're being a large farmer / contractor / business EQUALS successful or honest. Frankly, most times it's the other way around. Sadly. Good luck with your purchases. Ask questions, get information, make sure you locate serial numbers. No serial number, no purchase.