Have a Grove MZ66 manlift and over the winter a tire went flat and broke loose of the bead. It's a commercial tire about 3 ft high and 20 inch wide. Can get the actual tire size if that will help. The think weights in around 32K LB. Used a 20 ton jack and brought it up and blocked it. Used a 2 inch ratchet strap around the middle, pounding tire with sledge hammer but so far no luck. Both sides are real close but not enough to start. Thought about starting fluid but thinking that it would need more then just a little squirt to do much of anything, and kind of nervous about using a lot.
Need some Murphy's tire soap to pack around all the gaps. A fast fill air tank (bead blaster) also helps. The tire soap can be scooped up and reused. I watched a guy at a Goodyear commercial shop mount giant skidder tires. He threw handfuls of the tire soap in all the gaps and it was enough to hold the air till the tire grabbed the rim. After the beads seared he scooped up the tire soap and threw it back in the pail. It was fascinating to watch how easy he made it look. Used the truck crane to push the first side of the tire on the rim. Then he used about a 6' tire iron to put the tire the rest of the way on. Then he gobbed the Murphy's tire soap on. I've seen a thin inner tube around the rim used too. I wonder if a piece of rope or hose might be enough to hold the air till the tire meets the rim?? Would probably want to put liquid soap on what ever you tried. A bigger air compressor certainly helps and take the valve core out to seat the beads.
Have not heard of that, I'll look into it. Thanks
The Bead blaster that dave mentions, as well as pulling the valve core, and having air going in it at the same time you blast it. Sometimes it takes a couple tries. https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Tool-W10012-Gallon-Capacity/dp/B00R8DE0UI
Thought about buying one of those and the 5 gal is about $60 and is ok, but use one time Then thought the tire is so big it might need a larger one, then $100 to 500 Wonder if I could rent/borrow one from a local tire shop maybe
It would be cheaper to have the tire man come out, if its just a one time deal. I got a bead blaster a few years back, we often have to change tires when the tire shop isn't open. I won't do the big loader type tires on the big cranes, but just the semi truck sized tires, up to 445-425's floats. I built my bead blaster out of a ball valve and a old portable air tank, and some pipe.
It is simple and easy. You do it like this.
If you're close the tire soap will work. There might be other tire mounting goop that is thick that would work.
That is what I would be worried about
Probably should at least check that out. $50 to fix and let them do it and its done
I am not one to take chances. However a few times I was in your situation, and have used the ether trick. Not much is needed. Work your way up to how much is really needed. Try a short burst, and see how it goes, if not enough, use a bit more. One time i sprayed it in there, it did not go WOOF, and as I was mad, I kicked the tire....this let in some air and away it went, the ether then did it's job.... Yes to removing the valve core and applying a clip on tire chuck as well.
Not sure of the tire volume that you are dealing with but maybe this will give you an idea where to start if you decide to try the ether method. YOU are responsible for any attempts you make with this stuff - it is not a safe method if you don't have a clue. I watched a lot of videos to attempt to get an idea how and how much to use. My blast tank does not work well with larger tires so this method is my fall back. When I was replacing my 28L-26 tires @ about 30-40 degrees F outside temp, I was using 1/4 can of starting fluid per tire to set. No major explosions, no failed sets. I suggest using a 10' ignition pole as I do to stay clear of the pop. I've met locals with missing digits because they set it off too close with a match! I use a lit rag tied onto the end of an old CB whip antenna for good clearance. Short video here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/adzqjGkJeqkJEdSs7
Cripes....I was using a 2 second blast from the can.....my tires were smaller being 16" skid loader tires though......
Much as I hate to say it, John Deere ether is the only stuff I've found that still works on tires. All the others have so much low flammability product they won't do tires. No Poof. If you don't use enough you can always to it again. If you use to much, your heirs can call someone who has the right equipment.
For $50, I'd just have a shop mount it.
Where do you guys get someone to come out for $50? Around here a couple of years ago was $250, and I think he said his new tire truck (F550) was going to be $175,000.
The local guy came out and for $125 replaced the inner tube in my backhoe rear tire Same cost to remove and dismount/remount both front tires on 100 hp kubota tractor and swap
$125 is a no brainer.
It's about $60 for a 40 pound tub of the Murphys Tire & Tube Compund off Amazon. Pack the bead area, hit it with the air, scoop up the excess for a future use. I've done the ether trick on tiny, lawn tractor tires and pretty big tires. Like Terex Herder said, start with a short blast and use a long ignitor like TreeMuncher recommends give yourself some distance.
We have used a bicycle tube to fill the gap. Clamp a pair of vice-grip pliers on the stem and yank all you can out when the bead starts to seat. What gets caught and left behind usually won’t bother anything. Use something like Murphy’s soap or some other pasty tire lube, too to help make it go easier. Have as big a volume of air available as you can, and pull the valve core out to give as much flow as possible. We used to use go-jo hand cleaner (not the kind with grit in it) as a tire lube, but it’s petroleum based and doesn’t play well with rubber. Best idea is to call the tire shop, and watch & learn how he does it.
Local tire shop has a damaged ceiling and a hospital trip for some employees, no ether gets used at my shop to seat tires. If we can't seat it, I pay someone else.
After looking what size machine that is and rough tire size( looks to be equivalent to front backhoe tire) since you have it blocked up already i would just remove tire/wheel together and stop by tire shop. Probably won't even charge for something like that if they are like most of the off highway shops around here. That tire is definitely not worth a service call fee and waiting for a truck to come out. Nor is it worth spending much time trying to fix yourself. I do know that those things have super stiff sidewalls so without proper equipment good luck because I am sure there is a big deformed spot where the rim was sitting on the bead
Another vote for tire mounting compound.
Huh, I use mapp gas. Done up to large backhoe, loader tires. That was 20 to 30 years ago though. Last one was a Jeep tire, maybe a year ago. Gives a rush but myself, unless I was trying to show off, I’d just take it to a tire shop. I have a good one, close by that is reasonable. Don’t feel like having a pail of Murphy’s soap laying around.
I've done the ether routine before. I always made sure I had those wooden kitchen matches that I could throw from 12 feet away.
The times I have used ether it has been a lot more violent than Treemuncher's video. First try often not successful in the cold, just burns. After putting the fire out the second try is more successful, warmed up the components and made the fuel vaporize. I was a lot younger the last time I did it, not sure I would do it any more. My assessment of risks is different now. You should always have a bucket of Murphy's anyway.
Murphys is a lot cheaper than K-Y.....oopppsss
To get air into the tire faster to help seat the bead you need a recapper plug for your airline quick connects. Remove valve core, thread recapper plug directly onto the valve stem, and connect to air line. Way more air than you can get through any tire chuck.
Not necessarily in same category but--ether has damaged allot of limbs. And allot of other areas of safety. * HeavyEquipmentForums
Is it just the outer bead that is off or are both beads off? On my loader 23.5x25 tires, typically only the outer bead comes off. I jack it up then use a couple of small bottle jacks between the outer edge of the tire and the frame of the loader to push the tire close enough for the bead to catch. On mine I remove the small air valve assembly then screw a female air fitting onto the stem. Not a perfect fit but it works. Hook the airline to it and away it goes. As soon as it catches I release the jacks. A big compressor is a must.
afaik MAPP gas hasn't been made in 15+ years.
?? - https://www.homedepot.com/p/SIEVERT...timate-Performance-Torch-Kit-269997/325086528 Yeah I've blown more than my luck's share of SSL tires back on the rim with ether back in the day. Reason 1,069 why I haven't owned a wheeled machine since CTL's have been made.
Mapp gas is not only still arpound, it’s all I use. My wife uses propane for her Torcho-matic. She’s the fire bug, I just use mine to preheat for welding and an occasional melt on wire connection, if it’s just one. More than that and I break out the heat gun. Just pull the trigger on the torch, fill it up, larger tire, longer time and when time has passed, turn head to the side, stick the torch head near the bead and pull the trigger. Kawooosshh.
MAPP Pro is not MAPP at all, it is propylene. Read the Wiki on true MAPP gas.
Only thing i can add from whats above (pull valve, ratchet strap around centre, heaps of tyre lube) is lower the tyre to the ground and use weight of machine to “flair” the tyre to the bead while pumping air in. Also give it a hit with a sledge hammer.
The last tire I had problems with was on a weekend . The ether I was trying to use didn't act all that good. I went to the parts store and ask if they had any starting fluid behind the counter they did and it was a lot better it did the trick.
38 years ago I watched a guy put 4 underground scoop tram tires on rims. He mounted the tires loose on the rims, we mounted onto the machine for him at his remote tire shop. He had a skinny 20 foot pole with a good rag with oil and little gas on it. He lit the rag, ran over to tire and put probably half the can in the tire that was 6 feet tall and couple thousand pounds. He ran back an swung rag on fire to edge of tire rim and boom it was on. We were all way out of the blast area and yes it was on instantly. Does it hurt the tire, can't say. Only time I seen it done. We had all 4 done in 2 hours. Simon C
That's MAPP Pro. Not the same. Burns at only ~3700*. Propane 3600*.
I believe if you use oxygen instead of air is when MAPP Pro (propylene) really shines, until then it is mostly like propane.
Map Pro, Mapp Shmo, I have no clue. Blue or green means Propane, heats pretty good but if doing copper fittings, can only solder up to 1” maybe 1 1/4”. Bright yellow, Mapp gas, will heat up enough to solder 2” copper fittings. Both easy to buy. I use the yellow bottle for pre-heating aluminum. My wife uses the green bottle to light her trash barrel, every two weeks. I use the green bottle, for shrink tubing and melt on fittings occasionally. I got know idea what you guys are talking about. I also use Mapp gas for tires, more so in my younger years.
We are talking about they quit making MAPP gas almost 20 years ago. The stuff they sell now is a poor imitation, barely hotter than propane unless you use oxygen.
I have no idea why we are talking about gas. Lol I did not know that about Mapp gas. It does seem to burn quite a bit hotter than propane on either of my torches. One is made for Mapp gas. Anyone have BTU numbers or degrees the current Mapp gas heats to to compare to propane?
So, I’m admittedly a little pissed. I had 3 or 4 Mapp gas’s cylinders that I had been using for the last 30 years and for my birthday last year my wife got me 2 new cans as I had mentioned, I was finally running low. Because of this thread, I just went and checked my bottles and they say Mapp Pro. The one I still have that’s almost empty just say Mapp gas. I guess I’m a little slow sometimes. They work fine in my torch but nothing great.
Take all this advice with a grain of salt, use it at your own risk. As for using ether, we've put more tires that I can count back on with the stuff over the years. Sometimes in the shop for a large stubborn tire, but usually out in the field, forest, wherever when you don't have a large enough compressor, bead cheetah, etc. I've wheeled 4wd trucks and jeeps for years and there are many times when you are miles from the closest road and reseating a tire with ether is the difference between making it out or not. Method I use: -spray the ether all the way around the rim, pointed towards the inside of the tire -I count seconds of spray as a measurement, start small with a 1-2 second spray and work up. Not scientific, but at least gives you some measure of how much you are putting in -light it from a distance, if you don't have a rag on a stick or something to light and throw, spray a trail of wet ether along the ground and up the tire, out to a distance of a few feet. Light the end of the trail and the fire will follow it up and into the tire, hopefully before the ether in the tire has dissipated. -be quick with your air chuck, the second it pops back on start putting the air to it
I would add that a pre-attached chuck with a ball valve is almost a must in order to get air to the tire in time before it loses the seal after the pop - you need to add air immediately after the pop. Less ether is needed in warmer weather, a little more in colder conditions. If you need to re-ether, be sure the current charge is completely extinguished and burned out prior to adding another charge - no need to ask me how I know this one! I do my best to avoid using ether but there are times that it is the only way to get difficult tires to seat up without special tooling and working alone. I learned by watching a lot of YouTube videos to judge how much people were using. It is a learned assessment and better too little than too much. The volume of the tire will dictate how much fuel is needed to make it seat properly. The further away you can be from the ignition point the better.
Huh, and no one has used Mapp gas other than me? I was showed that 45 years ago, with propane I think. I have done hundreds of forklift tires with it and never really had a problem. I have done probably 20 smaller tractor and backhoe tires also. I realize it not that safe but the worst ones I’ve ever done were some 3 wheeler tires about 25 years ago.
I would do it in a pinch, but ether in a can is much easier to carry around and dispenses into the tire much faster, and also more commonly found near equipment and trucks
When I ran trucks, I always had a torch in the truck for brakes and such, to thaw when cold. I have used Either but always thought Mapp gas worked better. What I do is pull the trigger, without it clicking to ignite and depending on size of tire, hold it inside and after a bit of time, just go to side of tire and hit the striker, keeping a air hose handy, to keep the bead set. When I went to Tennessee, in Virginia, we had some butthead DOT guy give me crap for only 2 chains, with binders on, he wanted 3 and made me ratchet it down so hard, it blew the bead off the back tire. When we got there, stuck torch in for about a minute and kicked it off. Done.
A word of wisdom from a local tire man a couple of decades ago: "nobody touches that ether can but me".
It's not just using ether to inflate-yes it can be done, has been done over & over again with no issues. It's the one time it doesn't go as planned that's the killer. * Spending most of my life around 24 & 22.5's I've seen some real close calls. We had a U.S. Foods trailer setting in our lot in the same spot for two days. I was in the shop when I heard a tire let loose, it blew {zippered} the casing at tread just setting static for days. One Saturday morning as usual Les Schwab was at the yard doing weekend tire work, three guys all pros at their job, about 60 years experience between them. They were in the shop mounting new tires for spares for the coming week. Joe was airing one up that seated without a Cheeta. It had about 35 psi in it when it zippered the sidewall, he was standing to the side fortunately. It was leaning up against the handrail to the stairway when it blew. The rush of air completely destroyed the the lower portion of the steps, broke boards into pieces. Sent the tire & wheel into the adjacent tool box after it landed. He stuttered and shook for minutes, he was lucky. Oscar one of the other guys just that week had a cookie cutter {locking bead rim} explode on a service call. Tires of any type are nothing more than a rolling bomb and should be treated as much IMO. Just because it's a new virgin casing really means nothing. When airing tires I always move to the side.
I had a friend in high school, he was already a good mechanic and tire guy even before grad, was later working for Les Schwab on I-80 near Dutch Flat changing what would presumably be a 22.5, it let go and he was killed instantly by the side of the road.
About 20 deaths a year from auto accessory/tires. And some could be bunched in other categories. * https://www.bls.gov/iif/fatal-injuries-tables/fatal-occupational-injuries-table-a-1-2021.htm
After hearing that, I may think twice before doing my next tire. I do have a good friend in our Sportsman Club and he lost most of the use of his left arm from a 24.5 in a cage. It blew in the cage but his left arm up to the elbow was in the cage. They re-attached what was left but lost most of his nerves and could barely use his hand. That cut his forestry, logger occupation quite short.
I wonder if that is the Zipper Failure I got some flyer in the mail about a few years ago ?
new or used tires or any brand of casing can zipper.
Another fatality. Reading between the lines probably an overdose of ether. Community, friends rally around family of Wabasha County farmer who died in tire explosion "You're just kind of numb," one person said. "We're all better for knowing him." www.postbulletin.com
When the bead of the tire slipped off the rim on the bottom side, the tire shot straight into the air and exploded, killing Moechnig and injuring his dad, who remains hospitalized with multiple facial fractures, Harvey said. The tire left a two-foot dent at the top of the shed. Tire cage, keep it attached to the equipment, wrap chains around, or at least keep you head away!
I drove triaxle dump in my younger days and once had a tire explode when adding air. I was lucky that it was the inside duel, and the outside tire saved me from being seriously injured. The concussion knocked me 10’ sideways on my ass and it ripped off the mud flap and sent it 50’ to the rear. Ears were ringing the rest of the day. I’m now always nervous when filling any tire.
Know a guy who filled a tire the same on the side of the road. He woke up on his back in the cat-tails in the ditch. Inner tire had grenaded when filling. He had glasses on that saved his eyes from the dirt. Can never be too careful. Simon C
I had the same thing happed to me at the shop when filling an inner tire on my F550. Inner tire exploded while I had the chuck pressed on to fill it. It was close to 100 psi when it went. No major blast to me, thankfully, but ringing ears and a bit more hate for those Continentals. I know I was lucky on that one.
You guys have been mighty lucky with inside tires exploding--thank your lucky stars.
Back in 2020 I blew the front steer tire on my 6x6 crane while I was going 65mph down the highway with the cruise set. Was a little exciting to get the big girl slowed down and pulled over. I had a spare on the back that was missing a lug but was still in good shape. I got the old tire off, and new tire on (thank goodness for down riggers!) with a couple alignment bars, then the only air I had was on the ole International service truck with a screw compressor. Hooked that up with the ratchet strap trick and couldn't quite get it, but I had an entire shelf in the service truck full of grain bin caulking, so I caulked about 5 tubes into the bead until she finally seated and popped and blew it all over me! But with that I made it the last 90 miles home on a Sunday afternoon, building grain bins was always an adventure. By the way, the tire guys were not impressed with me when they had to change that tire out....
Tilt lock chucks are great. I mount the tire to the truck typically when I seat beads, I'm glad I don't do that much and don't have problems yet
I really do not miss putting up bins. I always use an inflator with an 8' hose or for big equipment tires or when i have several things going on at once I will use a good air pressure regulator set to correct pressure and a 25' hose and walk away. Never far enough away that I cant keep an eye on a bead slipping off or some other malfunction but far enough I am out of harms way. Also learned as a young kid to keep anything that could become a projectile away from anything with stored energy. I was 8-9 years old when airing my bicycle tire and the old compressor tank of grandpa's let go. I was incredibly fortunate in only having a cut behind my ear but there was 2 brand new boxes of sickle sections and a pile of new guards laying next to the compressor that flew everywhere when the tank let go.
Some years ago late 70's I suppose, a Tree Top facility in Cashmere Wa. had a new entrance to building added one night. Pressure regulator failed and pressure relief failed also according to investigators. It blew a section of concrete block wall out some 15' x 12'. In my last 30 years working in shops I always had a rule that air compressors had to be shut off after hours and weekends. My brother inlaw was a welder for John Deere dealer in Sacramento in 70's. He was busy welding when another worker operating a crawler ran over a 1" air hose cutting it in two. It whipped and hit him in the head, which caused him constant ringing and white noise plus a loss of balance for the rest of his life.
Main shop has compressor wired through lighting contactor. If the center row of lights is off the compressor is off. What does anyone recommend for clip on chucks for duals? I have the kind with grooves inside to grab the stem, but that's only half effective.
My father cobbled together a POS air compressor for a second garage and had to invent and build a looped pipe for a dryer for painting. One day after school before dad got home, the dryer blew a hole and pressure regulator stuck on compressor and me and my brother watched as it launched through 2 garage door sections and flew a 150’ down the driveway and across the road and into the river below. We stayed out back, till dad came home and found it himself. When we got back, he asked us where the tank was. lol
That's a great idea as long as people remember to shut the lights off also. If paying the electric bill that seems to flip the switch.
I use the tilt lock which is probably what you are talking about, as long as you push it on all the way before tilting it works really well.
The only problem with that is, it’s usually too early in the morning to hear the compressor spooling up, if you have any fittings leak. I have the worst luck with air fittings, never mind full flow blow off‘s. Most are all junk these days.
I live near the shop. The lights get turned off. The shop has lots of windows, so can walk around in daytime to get tools without turning lights on. And easy to tell from distance at night if lights were left on. My shop air system is tight after 10 years. I can tell if some air device was left plugged in when the air compressor starts with the light switch. I plumbed the air system in black steel. All USA iron fittings, steel merchant couplings that came with the pipe were thrown out.
I plumbed my brothers garage 30+ years ago with PVC pipe and put stations in, with drains and it’s never leaked.
I have pex water lines for mine. cheap and easy
I thought PVC was dangerous to use for air lines because if it broke could throw splinters.
I've seated troublesome tires with ether numerous times, just a quick shot around the rim OUTDOORS and touch it off with a lit rag on the end of a stick to give yourself some distance. No more than a 5 second shot. Someone mentioned today's ether isn't as potent, I've wondered about that myself. It doesn't seem to huff like it used to. If you use the tire soap make sure you're wearing gloves to recover it. A nick or barb on the rim will slice your hand open.
It happened to me once. Dad and I were oxy acetylene cutting something when the PVC in the rafters let go for no particular reason. He said with his dark glasses on he could not see but figured that was it, acetylene tank had let go or something. Nope it was just the 1" PVC. It did throw splinters everywhere, was a big mess. Years later I plumbed a shop for myself, all black pipe pitched to drain and even though I don't work there any more, it still works.
Liquids do not compress losing it's energy when a rupture occurs. Gases are compressible and under pressure release energy returning to the uncompressed state. Tubing used for compressed gases has to be rated for that use. OSHA does not allow PVC/CPVC for use in shop use in compressed air situations. If so it has to encased. There have been many injured using PVC as Spud guns. * When I worked for irrigation business in early 90's spud guns were very popular. Kids coming in all the time wanting to buy parts and pieces to build spud guns. The owner--had a policy that any time someone buying certain diameters/lengths of pvc along with only a few distinct pieces were more than likely about 99% of the time building spud guns. He allowed no sales at that point-using the {Right to refuse service to anyone}. For the fact it was known that many were injured by exploding PVC. He didn't want anyone having the ability to come back on him.
Some people use copper pipe and soldered fittings for air lines which is much safer. The safest way to test things that hold pressure is to fill them with liquid and do hydrostatic testing. Then they won't violently blow apart if there's a leak. I guess if something was poorly built or way over pressured it could be a little scary if it ruptured during a hydrostatic test but testing with air pressure would be like a bomb going off. Not unlike working on tire's when one blows. I wonder if hydrostatic testing is ever used on tires? I know some aircraft tires require 250 PSI but even big earthmover tires can go off like bombs.
I've done the ether trick. I did it next to a concrete wall and ignite it from afar. Jack it up and you might get lucky and tire flex to normal shape and take air.