Recently a newbie asked a question about hydraulics and cross contaminating oil with fuel. Long story short, I and others were challenged on the subject of "Dieseling" I was also accused of being a google technician. I really don't care what you guys think of me or my experience. I DO want to point out that dieseling is a real situation. Attached are images of the barrel to head as being separated . The pics are of a dipper cylinder of a 158,000 pound machine. It sits up pretty high. Very difficult to purge air out. This is what happens . I challenge you to find these images on google or tineye or any other image search engine. They are my pics, shot with my phone. I really didn't want to get drawn into a petty argument like this. The pressures were set to spec, the machine was not digging heavy clay. It was strictly material handling, mulch, to be exact. This was not a hard working machine, nor was it abused. We replaced the first cylinder under warranty with less than 700 hours, the second , a couple hundred later. Upon disassembly of the first, we discovered the back up ring and O-ring were both disintegrated. The piston packing was burned and forced back past the ring lands of the piston. The internal seals were also deformed badly. It didn't take long to realize what happened. This was a newer machine, after repacking the first cylinder and replacing the replacement as well as diligently purging air from the circuit , no new leaks have been reported. It has been over 2 years without failure. MODS, If this post is viewed as inappropriate, please delete or modify as needed.
For those who understand no explanation is necessary. For those who don’t no explanation is possible..... Makes sense to me, for whatever that’s worth!
Thanks. And its worth quite a bit
I’ve come across dieseling a number of times, specifically in the tilt cylinders of large wheel loaders. It’s a known documented phenomenon as far as I’m concerned.
Well, that's the point Nige, a senior member who I thought knew better dismissed it is heresy. Like I was preaching flat earth and such. I'm cool with that. I just don't want some newbies thinking its mularkey, when it's not. I ain't calling out names, but I had held this persons input as "solid" prior to this exchange. Maybe I'm just venting like a 8itch. I don't mean to come off as such. Just trying to get the point out there is all. BTW , thanks for your input as well. Always well thought out and backed up.
I'm not going to argue that it does not happen. But was this machine contaminated with Diesel fuel? Or was the presence of air and hot hydraulic oil vapors enough to cause this? No air... no combustion, I don't care what is in the circuit. In the other thread you stated it was going to happen no matter what because of the fuel contamination. (roughly 10 percent). Again... no air...
Oh you got me there. No air intrusion, just fuel contamination. And I stated that if, IF air got in there, damage could occur. And I followed up by suggesting drain and fill, operate and repeat. Good eye for detail. But no, I didn't state that it would, rather that it could, with air. And it wouldn't even need to be warm out. You're on the right page. These pics I have posted were strictly hydro dieseling. The post your referencing was cross contamination. But yeah, it could
Not trying to have a p!ssing contest here, just stating the physics of an event like that.
Correct. In that situation such damage would most likely be caused by cavitation.
I'm with you, you went back and re read what I posted, right? I ain't out to preach doom and gloom, just trying to help avoid something larger. You are 100% correct, no air , no bang.
And that's a critter of a different hide. That's what I love so much about this place. Tremendous experience and knowledge from all over.
yup where is the diesel fuel in all of this and where is the deformed cylinder?? you needlessly scared the crap out the original poster in that 580 blog with your I know all about all with help of google don't come on so strong with all the technical bs when all it takes is a simple fix
That's my point, I informed him of the risk, beyond that, it's his decision. When a youngin asks for help or guidance, we ought to give what's asked. I don't and won't **** on what someone advises someone else unless they are trying to put that person in harm's way or are blatantly wrong, then I will invite a "polite" discussion.
that's my point you went ballistic in your "guidance" and didn't need to I would call that damage cavatation not dieseling so call it what you may and carry on with all your fancy words and xplanations wherever you get them but you aren't fooling us who have been pulling wrenches and have learned by experience not by the computer
Let's agree to disagree BTW the earth is round Google says so
A couple things, there was aquestion asked, fun responded with an answer of what COULD happen, will it, who knows, could it, absolutely. Does the op need to take action, no, plenty of others chimed in with their opinion, he should do what he thinks is the right course of action for him. Second, how is it just "computer experience" when he posted his own pics of a failure he had to repair? I don't have a dog in this fight, but I certainly like coming here and seeing what other like minded folks have to say about their experiences, I certainly don't agree with what everyone posts, but who the hell am I to say this that or the other. I haven't been here that long, but I have seen to many fellas get tired of justifying their real world experiences and just don't help out or come around anymore. It's really a shame because there are a lot of interesting things posted here and that comes from people that have interesting experiences....not to mention all the really great free repair/diagnosis advice that gets tossed around on a daily basis....just sayin.....
Wonderfully said.
I've been away from my computer for a couple of hrs, let's all keep it peaceful in here.
Tags you beat me to it. Trashing the man for sharing his experience because you disagree, haven’t seen it or don’t think it’s possible is a waste of time. In my humble opinion if you don’t have anything constructive to say it might be better to keep it to yourself. There have been many brilliant guys run off here over needless drama. I love sharing and helping people on here. In turn I learn a lot myself. Should I be faced with somebody talking smack, and I have been, I have to take a step back. I consider the context, their contributions and if I possibly made a mistake. We’re mechanics, operators etc not English majors so it’s entirely possibly what we’re trying to say doesn’t come across like we want. On the other hand when somebody is talking **** and trying to stir the pot for no reason that’s blatantly obvious to me.....
Interesting. I hadn't realized how tight the springs had gotten wound, but it sounds like things have come around. When a guy reaches a certain level of knowledge, experience, and confidence, I personally don't believe there is anyone at that level that isn't going to bow his neck a little (or a lot, lol) when somebody disagrees with his ideas. However, in my opinion, how he handles himself in these situations is the true measure of his worth. I'm sure I have jumped into a hole a few times over the years, and I'm certain I'll do it again. Hopefully everyone has pulled their horns back in and life goes on.
I made a similar comment on my thread. Suggested a group hug. Miller suggested boxing gloves!
Sometimes beating the sense out of one another merits a little consideration! Just hard to be stupid trying to catch your breath and stop the bleeding.
I'm a slugger not a hugger. That said, I tried to stay civil. This thread wasn't even about the earlier disagreement. It was supposed to make folks aware of the possibility that dieseling could occur. I feel like a dummy, letting myself get pulled into a dialogue over this. I appreciate the support I got, I also appreciate the opposing point of view, without it, we dont learn or think critically.
I agree with everything everyone has said. But let’s not forget that this forum is to get help and receive information. Let’s be clear about the help and information that we are giving. I’ve read and followed this thread. And I have to tell you that if I was a newbie asking that same question and got back this feedback. I would be scared sh!tless that I messed up my equipment or have a potential time bomb. As a seasoned veteran And seen this many many times. I know that this isn’t all that serious of an issue and that could be remedied easily and without all the drama. Give the answer that is being requested and save the rest for the proper time. Again I agree with all but sometimes we can give to much information and hinder rather then help.
And you don't need diesel in the fuel. Atomized hydraulic oil will diesel just fine.
I don't think this thread is about this so called dieseling in the real world its called cavitation plain and simple wording to the point plain and simple no diesel involved just air and hydraulic oil
Oh shoot!!! here we go again... just kidding
I WAS just about to ask.. why its called dieseling.. when we're talking about hydraulics.. but post 27 cleared it right up.. thanks Bob.. I've never heard that expression before.. other than a "run-on" after the key was turned off.. I'm up to speed now.. Carry-on..
I hope this article can shed some light on the subject for anyone who's interested. The text also includes a definition of the process.............. Speaking just for myself I would describe the difference between cavitation and dieseling as "cavitation involves a non-flammable fluid (think engine coolant boiling on the outside surface of cylinder liners) where dieseling involves a flammable fluid". Taken to its basic level one is a bubble bursting, the other is a mini-explosion, an uncontrolled mini-diesel engine if you will. Comparing the potential effects of the two is like comparing the effects of a cherry bomb to those of a blasting cap.
Dead on Nige . Hopefully that puts this subject to rest. Let's get back to helping one another.
Dammit...……...If I missed the group hug, ………..Im going to be SOOOO PISSSED at you guys!
DAMMIT and I was so looking forward to the nine rounds to watch!!
[QUOTE="Nige, post: Speaking just for myself I would describe the difference between cavitation and dieseling as "cavitation involves a non-flammable fluid (think engine coolant boiling on the outside surface of cylinder liners) where dieseling involves a flammable fluid". Taken to its basic level one is a bubble bursting, the other is a mini-explosion, an uncontrolled mini-diesel engine if you will. Comparing the potential effects of the two is like comparing the effects of a cherry bomb to those of a blasting cap.[/QUOTE] THANK YOU! I was getting lost in the argu. . . 'discussions' and was confused about what was being 'discussed'. Your explanation saves me from beginning to believe I was loosing cognitive functioning of my mind . . . . . at least for today.
" Adiabatic" heating>> WTH?? Just who do these people think they're talking too??!! THAT REMINDS ME OF THE WORD>> "LUBRICITY" When someone is talking about diesel fuel..
Electrolysis is another function that is oft ignored. Added electrical features of more recent note that develop ground issues end up with opportunistic electrical flow thru systems never intended, that in turn sets up electrolytic decay or transference of dissimilar metals or alloys(cross plating or metal pitting). Saw this to some extent in the electricity industry support equipment but has been slowly volume building in commercial equipment as well.
Well we all know we have to be Enganears as well as Technicians AND Mechanics!!
I hear ya Miller.. Its obvious in injection pumps that the machine has been "welded on".. The main gov, spring gets "stretched" to double its size.. Its kinda funny when I ask/email a customer 600 miles away & ask them>> what did u weld on your machine?? I get a chuckle most of the time & then get asked>> How did u know.?? We welded hooks on the bucket as long as the machine was gonna be down.. Then I ask>> did u un-hook the batteries?? The answer is obviously NO.. But yes, I see it quite often.. The welder is grounded/clamped to the machine & the batteries are left hooked-up & POW.. the hi voltage is sent thru the machine & effects all sorts of components.. I've seen electric solenoids inside AND outside the pumps, "melted".. & its funny when they "deny it".. NOPE no welding.. I say, well "someone" did & it wasn't ME.. lol
There you go with all your high faluting fancy college boy words. How's I supposed understand all them big words? You just trying to keep me down. Jus' kiddin. How many folks know what a sacrificial anode is, let alone where it's at? I tried to stay away and let this die. But ya'all are havin too much fun
I 'member stanadyne saying, yer fuel ain't got no lubricity, that's why it failed. Funny Ambac and other Bosch clones never had that issue.
ahh fun but all you had to do on those Stanadyne pumps to save the metering valves was add a bit of hydraulic oil to the fuel to add lubricity to replace the removed sulfur that the know all governmental knobs decided to remove and all was well worked well with all rotary pumps as well
I was worried I was gonna see a repeat of tctractors again. Looks like all is well here ! " Jus' kiddin. How many folks know what a sacrificial anode is, let alone where it's at ?" Any takers on fwf's question ? Google searches are prohibited.
Well you can't take away my source of "experience " Google is all I have brother.
It's on the bottom of the boat. Guess I should have added a metal boat to ground stray electric currents. Bob
Now we're having fun, like we should.
For marine applications, yes.
or on the motor and yes I have a boat as I live on a lake so no google here
Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most ...........
I agree. . . "..I miss my mind the most. . " as I age. What I also miss is the quickness -OF MY MIND- when analyzing problems. But 'I believe' that has occurred because I have so much more 'retained knowledge' it takes longer to process and sort out the irrelevant. . . . . . . at least that's MY story. Your quote reminds me of the old tried and true method we used for resolving complicated problems with computers. Start off with K-iss I-t S-imple S-upid. Usually that didn't work. . . but you never know. If that didn't get it fixed, run all diagnostics, use all available test equipment to narrow down the problem area, analyze the results in detail and draw a circle around the area in the schematics where the problem obviously was. If that didn't work to correct the problem, draw a bigger circle. (I know it's an oldie) I have seen so many problems that did not' make sense' that I never tell someone (OK . . . maybe sometimes) they don't know what they are talking about with the 'problem' or the 'resolution'. But always listen to both as they may come in handy.
Does anyone else think that a reduction in "quickness" regarding a problem analysis after being presented with a list of symptoms could possibly be related to the increasing complexity of the latest generation of machines on the market...?
In answer to your question Nige yes yes I think everyone is taking a copy out of the Liebherr manual let us make things work complicated and more intricate than they need to be for simple operation
Actually, I was referring to 'MY mind' and 'it's' apparent loss of 'quickness' as I have aged. . . but I take no offense. However you bring up a very good point. "..the increasing complexity of the latest generation of machines on the market." presents a problem in that the 'cost' of getting a problem 'fixed' is becoming astronomical. IMHO - Most of the 'cost' is primarily due the 'complexity', added to by the 'lack of in-depth knowledge' of the individuals servicing the equipment. End result is repairs 'rely' on what the 'codes' tell service providers who 'throw parts' at the problem. It's quick but also 'costly'. As computer engineers we had a saying for such 'complexity' and the service provided. (The knowledge and training provided individuals for solving problems) One banana monkey (read the ERROR CODE and replace what it said), two banana monkey (read ERROR CODE and compare it to other codes and replace what has not been replaced before, or three banana monkey (the engineers who 'should' know everything)
I have no input to this thread but had to reply so I wouldn't miss the group huge Mark
What if I get hungry I eat all my bananas And to make matters worse my Google aint working whatever will I do
Oh crap, learned something new today... disconnect the battery when welding on the machine. I guess I got away with it so far, will not chance it anymore. Thanks
Usually on the prop shaft on a sailboat
You're disrupting the class you need a time out
You get the gist of it. The monkeys are hungry and want to eat their banana's so they are focused on them. If they get THREE bananas they can't hold them all so they have to 'think' about what to do.
[Threadjack] We do a yearly trip after Christmas. We rent a sailboat out of St. Pete, FL for 10 days. We sail to the Dry Tortugas and do some scuba diving, snorkeling, eating, drinking, etc.... Sometimes we go to Key West for a day before going home. We are leaving this year on Dec. 27th on a Jenneau 469 (46' monohull).[/Threadjack]
So.................. where's the pics
Have a safe trip ianjoub . Be careful who you rent the boat from . That crew is known for " dieseling " & " cavitation " .
I can not begin to explain why I don't have good pics of this stuff.... I guess I will just defer to 'I am a man' and don't do the camera thing.
A pic is worth a thousand words!!!! and that is one long post Nice!!
Whats all this **** about boats? Them anodes is burried in the ground, rite by the pipeline.
Well, I was looking for the one in a traditional truck/ tractor cooling system... But you guys had to be different ... I'm surprised no one said the water heater. I guess the weird thing is, what was I talking about , oh , everybody has a different go to answer , and their all right. Except Ianjoub, sailboats prop, everyone knows sailboats ain't got no props, they got them jet nozzle thingys
Changed many a water pump 'Pencil' sacrificial anode in the old Detroit Diesels. Also chucked many a Zinc block into the hull of a River Tow while performing maintenance on one, also sacrificial anodes. My own Mercruiser outdrives had Anode castings attached to the lower units. LOADS of Sacrificial Anodes including most apprentices!!!
I missed reading this thread till just this morning, not trying to toss fuel on a fire so to speak but the only "official" place I saw mention of this dieseling before seeing the post by Nige was in the service manual for our 988H. Last page of the "Install Hoist Cylinder" section.
So as someone who has never heard of hydraulic dieselling, could someone give some explaination? What caused the seals in the cylinder in the first post to disintegrate? Was it the chemical composition of diesel? The way diesel behaves vs oil when under pressure/vacuum? Or a lack of lubrication due to the oil being dilluted? Besides a careless operator dumping diesel in the hydraulic tank, is it even possible to get cross contamination? I can't think of a way its possible.
OK if you have air in a hydraulic circuit and then you exercise that function to the end of travel you will have air and oil mixed . Compressed very very tightly that will cause spontaneous combustion just like diesel that's why it is called dieseling The disintegration was caused by the tremendous heat and pressure exerted on the cylinders head. It has nothing to do with the presence of diesel it is the combustion process that is taking place
Any oil can feed a diesel in essence. Large ocean diesels actually run on bunker oil, Detroit diesels will run just fine until cook on motor oil, hydraulic is just another available combustible.
Ii have not personally seen this with a hydraulic cylinder. BUT I have seen it in a piston type accumulator as fitted to cat scrapers .An operator not understanding how an accumulator works decided to try and improve the ride by adding air to the Schroder charging valve. as it just happens to be the same type of valve that is used on a car tyre Mark
Ah ok! Never heard the term before. Guess I took it too literally hahaha. Everything makes sense now, thanks!
Atomized combustible fluid/air mixture under intense compression/pressure you might say.....
To add to that, compression of air heats the air to a temperature sufficient to ignite the combustible fuel. The heat generated by the compression of air is the source of ignition.
Rather than the word, think more about how a compression ignition engine works and what is required to generate the bang in the cylinder. Oxygen + any combustible fluid + compression. It doesn’t need diesel contamination in the system to cause dieseling. If you go back to page 2 there is a post where I attempted to verbalize it better.
To repeat and sum up some of what was said above, and muddy the water a little further, if that's possible, "compression ignition engines" are only called "Diesel" engines because they were invented by Rudolph Diesel. "Diesel" (an adjective) fuel is called that because it's mostly used to run that kind of engine. It's just as correct to call it number 2 fuel oil. "Dieseling" (a verb) describes the spontaneous bang which occurs when a combustible substance is ignited by the heat of compression, whether that occurs with #2 fuel oil in one of Mr. Diesel's engines, or hydraulic fluid in a cylinder. Does that make sense?
No. I heard an old operator explain it to a young laborer one time. He dug one of those things up, and the kid asked what it was. "That's the antidote " the old guy explained. "It's what keeps the pipe from rusting." Now that does kinda make sense...
Sometimes plain English is more situationally appropriate than proper Anglish.
and sailboats do have prop shafts` small ones` not all but most bigger ones
Clear as mud
How many here know the most common location of the anode is on a fire truck?
The drivers seat? Or the alternator/voltage regulator?
The ones we plan to retire on all have 225 hp Perkins diesels
I've seen em' threaded into the top of the tanks before.
Well, I used to be a fire wrench, does that count? Actually it has been so long I don't remember if they had a "central" anode but whenever I had one in for pump service, there were these 4 bolt 2.5" or 3" blank-off plates on the main manifold where water outlets could go. Any that were available to me I would pull the plain plates and install ones that had anodes in those holes.