I have a 480CK I've been bringing back to life, I have the engine running great, starts on the first try every time now, changed engine oil/filter twice, totally drained power steering and changed filter, and I'm going to spend this weekend installing new seals in a few leaking cylinders. I will also flush out transmission as well. All the fluids on this machine look like heavy cream/melted chocolate milkshake. See pic attached of boom cylinder leaking all over: My question is, is there a systematic way drain the hydraulic fluid before adding any new fluid? The only thing I can find about it in the manuals is to flush with 50/50 kerosene and hydraulic fluid, with a warning not to use 100% kerosene or any solvents, but nothing about the process. This machine has a ~10 gal hydraulic reservoir, with another ~10 gal in the system. So draining the tank and refilling only gets rid of half the contaminated fluid, and draining again and refilling again only gets rid of 25% contaminated, etc... When I flushed the power steering I was able to completely drain the system because it can gravity feed down to the cylinders and by disconnecting the cylinders and cycling by hand I was able to empty both sides. However, the hydraulic system on this machine is much more complicated and won't just drain out with gravity, and I doubt I'll be able to work those cylinders back and forth by hand, other than maybe the stabilizer cylinders... I also understand the dangers of using compressed air in a hydraulic system. This is my first time working on a hydraulic system, so please let me know if the following is a bad idea, or will damage the machine or is unsafe. My idea so far: 1. Raise loader and hoe to fully extend each cylinder. Drain hydraulic tanks (left and right loader frame). Carefully drop loader and hoe to push as much fluid back to tank. I assume with an empty tank it will suck air into the other side of cylinders? I'm also wondering if the regen in the valve body will just divert the fluid right back into the other side of cylinder, making this whole step pointless? 2. Pour some kerosene in and try to scrape out any gunk from bottom of tanks with bottle brush through drain holes. (It's impossible to see into tanks as the loader bushing is right inside the breather/fill hole. 3. Disconnect and drain main supply and return hoses from pump, and from loader and backhoe valve bodies. Reconnect hoses, except for final return to reservoir. 4. Fill tank with 10 gal of new fluid, crank tractor til clean fluid comes from return hose. Reconnect return hose, Add more fluid to reservoir. Install new hydraulic filter. 5. Go to each cylinder one at a time and disconnect hoses, with engine idling, work control forward til clean oil comes out, and then work control backward til clean oil comes out. Disconnect piston end from machine and attempt to work back and forth by hand, draining both sides of cylinder. Reconnect hoses. Add new oil to tank as needed. Is there a better way to do this? Do I need to do this? I've searched google and YouTube, and I can't find much about doing a complete drain of a backhoe hydraulic system. Thanks for your help!
I have done it and had excellent results. It is tedious and requires a lot of new oil. Don't contaminate the system with kerosene or diesel fuel. Use new hydraulic oil. Don't force dirty oil back into the tank. Below are links to a couple of threads on how to do it. The swing cylinders are kinda unsafe to do. HeavyEquipmentForums HeavyEquipmentForums
Thanks! Unfortunately those links aren't working for me on my phone or desktop... What is dangerous about the swing cylinders vs others? Is there any specific oil I can use besides the Case TCH? In one part of the service manual it says I can use 10w motor oil above 32deg and 5w below 32
The transmission needs TCH or hytran or equivelant. The hydraulics need a hydraulic oil, which could be lot of different oils, could be TCH or hytran, but not required. #5 is the best way to get the old oil out. I don't think it's needed though. The water in that oil is the issue. You can get the water out by a number of methods, heating the oil and bubbling air through it is what has worked for me. Vacuum and heating, or boiling works also. Set it up so you can do it easily, because you will have to repeat many times, as you've shown by how little you change just draining it. Do that until you get no more noticeable moisture, and change the filter. You'll add enough new oil when you pop a hose...
Thanks, I have a fully mechanical transmission with a dry clutch, and I'm pretty the gearcase takes regular 90 weight gear oil... Any issues going with 140weight? Also, those weren't 5 different options, they were steps in order, haha, not sure if you misread. I definitely want to do a full drain, I have no idea how old this oil is or whats in it, and I'd like to have a fresh start. This tractor is 55 years old and has plenty of battle scars, but it's still a solid machine and I think I can get many more years out of it doing light duty work around my property.
Thanks Tinkerer! Your links aren't working but I just punched in 14595 in the search bar and I found the old thread, here's the link that works: HeavyEquipmentForums I repacked the 4 worst leaking cylinders last weekend and will do a few more this next weekend. The main seal in all four glands was totally mush, it would just crumble out in chunks that I could crush between my fingers... I have no idea how I was even able to use the hydraulics at all with the seals that bad. I assume the rest of the cylinders will be similar, now that I've put a few hours on the machine ripping out stumps I can see every other gland starting to leak as well. There was also a significant about of grit and junk that came out of the bottom of the cylinders that I assume got trapped. Uggh... But the good news is that I finished the dipper cylinder late Saturday night and stuck the hoe up in the air and measured the bucket height off the ground, and the next morning it had only sunk about 2 inches! Before I could literally watch the bucket drop after I let off the controls... I still haven't drained the fluid yet, I'm hoping to get to that this weekend as well. It still looks like melted mayonnaise, even though I've added 10 gallons now to the 20 gallon system. My question now is, what do I put back in after the flush? I'm leaning towards using Traveller ISO 46 hydraulic fluid. This machine has a standalone hydraulic system and has a totally mechanical transmission with a dry clutch, so i figure this would be a good choice? Anyone have a better suggestion? This is an old clapped out hoe that lives in the woods and I'm not looking to invest a fortune or drive to the case dealer over an hour away...
Swing cylinders with new seals Draining some salad dressing... And these swing cylinder bushings are extremely worn, so much slop on the little joints mounted mid cylinder Using a comealong to pull swing cylinders.
The Travelers oil would be OK. ISO 32 would be my choice it you plan on doing any work in really cold weather. 80/90 would be a better choice for gear oil. Changing the bushings may save the cylinders from getting destroyed if they get loose in the bores. The trunnions they pivot on can be welded up and cut to OEM specs on a lathe.
Yes, definitely, I would only use the iso 46 for the hydraulic system, and would use 80/90 for the final drive. One thing I'm still trying to figure is if my mechanical shuttle needs its own fluid, not gear oil. And I'm also stumped about this white plastic thing with the clip in the pic below. I've studied every page of the parts manual and it isn't shown anywhere that I can find. This is the four speed gearbox with the cover removed.
You have water in the oil. Make sure to flush things good.
Yes, there is water in every fluid in this machine! Any tips to flush it out good? The service manual says to cut it with 50% kerosene. The gloop that came out when I drained the engine oil was the worst! But I've changed the oil and filter twice after running it for a few hours and it seems to have cleared that up. I've also flushed out the power steering. Next is the hydraulic system and the gearcase, and possibly the shuttle if that has a separate oil reservoir.
Was your machine submerged at some point. Wonder how all that water got in there?
The shift lever rubber boot is usually one way for water to get in a gear box. The way I do it requires the backhoe to be off of the ground so that it can be swung from one side to the other with all the hoses removed from the cylinders. That will force ALL of the oil out of them. But it is dangerous because you could get injured from a boom that can swing freely.
I don't know anything about it's history, but it has ancient dealer stickers from a town nearby... a 55 year old machine that has clearly done some work, several of the hoe teath are worn down to rings... probably been someone's beater machine for decades, and stored outside in the Catskill mountains with 60" average rainfall and 4 months of freezing nights, I think it's mostly condensation and rain through the taped up breathers. If the machine was only ever run for short periods and never spent much time running at operating temp over the past 15-20 years and no one changed the fluids or just topped them off with whatever was available, it makes sense that the fluids all have picked up water. Here it is this morning moving a pine stump, I worked the machine for about an hour to warm up the fluid and drained the tanks and the main 1" loop from the pump to the return filter. Tomorrow I will go cylinder by cylinder like tinkerer talks about in his other threads and drain each circuit.
I admire your resolve in resurrecting it. Even after all it's been through, it looks to have some balls. Hats off.
Thanks! I just finished flushing out the hydraulics following tinkers advice, I'd say I was able to flush out about 90%. I didn't think through the positions of the boom and stabilizers good enough and I wasn't able to completely empty those cylinders. Also, the tank drain wasn't at the bottom of the reservoir, it was about an inch or so up, and just a 3/4" hole and I stuck my finger in after draining and felt a whole pile of crud and metal chips... I worked up the pile with a frayed up scrap end of battery cable while my son poured kerosene in the top breather ports... Did this several times on both sides til it started coming out somewhat clear... Went through 2 gallons of kerosene. I took a little ring magnet on a string and pulled out all sorts of metal chunks. There were still chunks inside that I suppose weren't magnetic, I think I could feel pieces of paper gasket that I could feel stuck to wall of tank. I wish I knew where the pickup for the pump is inside the loader frame. I have all the parts and service manuals for this machine but nothing with a cutaway of the loader frame reservoir. It's a 19 gallon system, I bought 25gallons (5x 5 gallon pails) of iso-46 fluid and it took about 3 hours, I still have a half pail left. I couldn't get some of the connections to come loose so I had to break some lines in the middle instead of close to the cylinders, meaning there was some old fluid left. However, the water pump/fan shaft was getting wobbly, its been on the list to replace, but while I was doing the flush it got worse and worse and eventually the fan blade started hitting the radiator and now the radiator is leaking...
Uggggh, the coolant system is only shown in the parts catalog... Nothing else in the service manual... just instructions for the water pump, nothing about the radiator...
Now that you flushed it maybe something like this to get the rest of the water out? Water absorber
That looks pretty neat! And a great price too! Unfortunately I only have a 1" hole at the top of the loader frame and the main loader bushing sits right inside so close that I have to put on a 1" pipe nipple to even get a funnel to stay in place. I don't think I'd be able to fit that inside unfortunately. The OCD engineer part of me wants to rig up a whole filter loop plumbed off the tank drains with water absorbers and micron filters, but then I remind myself that this is an old clapped out basket case and there are a dozen other things to fix first, and really I just need to get a half acre of stumps ripped out and the ground leveled for my new shop in the woods, so I can get back to carpentry, haha I called Dale at e-backhoeparts.com and have a new water pump, radiator hoses and a few random gaskets and seals coming. I've also watched a dozen YouTube videos on radiator repair so I should be able to get this giant hunk of iron moving again next weekend. I also think I need to replace the front crankshaft seal while I'm at it. Anyone know if I can do this without pulling the timing cover? What a mess, haha, I had no idea what I was getting into when I got this thing, I only ever worked on single cylinder mower and chainsaw engines before, I thought I was gonna just change the oil, put in some fresh gas and start digging but now I'm beginning to understand why excavation contractors charge what they do!
Arrggghhh... I'm so frustrated... Last week when I pulled my old water pump to order a replacement, I noticed that the front of the engine was a dirty oily mess, and that it was likely originating from the main crank seal at the front. Studied the service and parts manual, called Dale at ebackhoe and ordered a seal, only $15, and proceed to start taking apart the hydraulic pump and the front pulley... Had to make 2 trips to the store to get all that done... Finally get the front pulley loose and it needs another 1/2" of clearance to come out. Only way to get that clearance is to split the front off the tractor... I'm hate turning back after coming this far, but I just don't see how I can safely split this thing out in the woods... I suppose it's not leaking that bad... And I really need to get land cleared to get my shop up this summer... Seriously Case? What were you thinking?
oof. that's rough. Can you unbolt the engine from its mounts, and jack up the block to clear the frame there?
This is a 1968 480ck... It's from the time when backhoes were still mounted on AG tractors. The engine is part of the tractor chassis. Its cast iron all the way from the front to the back, with a loader and backhoe frame sitting over it. I'd have to detach the front of the loader frame as well as the front wheels and steering..
I'd keep going. Unless you want to fill the engine with water and run it enough to get back to an easier place to work. Roll the front end forward a few inches and get it over with. You should be able to block up the engine, and brace off the loader to keep it all upright.
Thanks for the encouragement, I'm really stubborn and I hate "giving up"... I took about 30 minutes to give it serious consideration and I decided that out here in the woods on the spongy ground without a way to confidently support and manipulate the separate pieces away and back towards each other, let alone do a careful procedure with my head and hands right in between the two sections, I really need to just put it back together and do the work this winter on solid ground once my shop is built. Ugggh... Time to solder the radiator! And Dale had both radiator hoses and water pump in stock at a very fair prices!
Sounds like a smart move. You're not giving up, you're just picking your spots.
Everything will come apart so much faster the second time. I've experienced that bonus many times.
That was most of the trouble! Haha, it took 2 hours just to get the hydraulic pump out and required torching the 1" pressure fittings and beating on my big crescent wrench with a 4lb hammer like a crazy person just to get them loose. Then I couldn't find a gear puller to fit so I made a custom one... That wasn't strong enough so I went to AutoZone and got a gear puller I was able to modify to fit and that finally popped the pulley loose
I don't recall if you've finished the flush yet (side comment, one needs to ALWAYS finish their flush however, I digress.... lol) Anyway, I saw you/someone say Hytran to refill it. I've got an International tractor that uses Hytran. Can't find it too close so was 90 minutes away and bought some there. Two, five gallon buckets cost me approximatley $150 which floored me. So, if I were going to empty and flush, I'd empty it. I'd find a 'cheap version' of Hytran. Refill it, run it to warm it up, put cylinders through their paces and then drain it out. Refilling again, with hytran. I did that with the transmission fluid on my backhoe however, I flushed it with diesel. I had water in there (my rubber boot into transmission for shifter had rotted out so water was going straight in) Fixed boot, drained it. Put some diesel in.... ran for 5 minutes or so (stablizers down holding tires up so I could run it forward/reverse without much of a drive load) Did that 3-4 different times, using 2-3 gallons each time. Final time I drained and refilled with the regular transmission fluid (not Hytran) and intend this summer, to drain that again after I get some actual time on it. The diesel went back into an empty hydraulic fluid bucket....and I used it for fire-starter fluid on my burn pile.
I did the flush last week, I drained the reservoir and broke the main supply and return loops in several places and blew out all the fluid, then refilled with clean fluid and systematically went to each cylinder and broke the lines as close to the ends as I could and operated the spool til I saw clean fluid coming out, then connected to the retracted side of the cylinder and pushed the old fluid out of the other side. I think I was able to get at least 90-95% of the old fluid out this way, and only wasted about 3-4 gallons. I was able to capture most of the waste oil as well, probably spilled no more than a gallon, and when I was done I raked up as much of the oil soaked forest mulch as I could and had a nice little fire that burned for hours, haha.
Update on progress... After deciding not to split the tractor to replace the crank seal, I went ahead and installed the new water pump, put the radiator back in with new hoses, put the hydraulic pump back in, and closed up the front end. I then went back through the fuel and throttle system cause that had been giving me issues as well. The governor spring was broken and had been replaced with a wire, which meant that the throttle was really touchy and the engine had no load response. Took the whole linkage apart and cleaned off caked grease, put in a hardware store spring, took carb apart again twice to adjust float valve so gas didn't leak out. I took out the mess of plumbing fittings on the output of gas tank and put in a glass fuel bowl, and blew a ton of rust from the fuel line. I also removed the shuttle cover, it had been leaking all around the cover cause it was missing a gasket and I figured out why. Someone had tried to mess with it and discovered that in order to remove it, the whole steering column/gas tank/everything above transmission had to be lifted up about an inch to get clearance to remove from tractor. So I used a ratchet strap over the loader frame to lift it up just enough to slide it out. This also solved on of my mysterys... This machine actually has a H/L transfer case but someone hacked off the lever, ***? I spent some time working the stub back and forth as well as moving the gears by hand and it seemed like the transfer case would work, so I put the cover back on with gasket sealant and marked the cover with H/L with a cutting disk. I suppose I could weld a new lever on, but I don't know why I would ever need it out of low. It was stuck in high before which was way to much for the woods. I also put new teeth on the bucket, the old ones had been worn down enough to become rings... Got it all out back together and put it to work for about 4 hours! Dug out two stumps and spent some time grading and leveling. This old machine wants to work! I think I've ripped out about 12 stumps so far...
Sounds like you got the fever. Something tells me that machine is gonna roll out of the new shop in the spring with shiny paint and new decals. It's a sickness, but there are worse things to spend your time on. Good job on your efforts so far.
Thanks! That would be awesome if I can get everything done like that! Hopefully I'll be able to find the time and money! We currently live in an apartment in NYC where I am a general contractor, and we have spent the last 2 years of weekends building an off grid homestead in an old dense forest up in the Catskill mountains. Currently have a canvas wall tent with a woodstove, rainwater collection system that feeds a shower with a propane water heater, a sawmill, and now a backhoe! Idk... After seeing how crazy this city got during the pandemic, we are doing everything we can to get out... Eventually the plan is to build a small house with the sawmill, but first I need to get a shop put up so I have a place to work on stuff through the winter. Up here in the mountains we can have snow on the ground from December to the end of March...
I have 2 questions for you all if you could help me figure them out. #1 If you look at the pic above of the open transmission, the top section is the shuttle and dual range gearbox, and the bottom section is the 4 speed gearbox. The 4 speed section is connected to the final drive reservoir which gets filled with gear oil and has a dipstick. However, the shuttle section is connected to the torque tube with a standard clutch, and I can't find anywhere in the service manual about how much oil it takes, just that it wants hytran. One cutaway shows a dipstick in the torque tube, but I just have a cap. Any idea how full that reservoir should be? It's currently filled to cover the bottom half of the shuttle gears with some sort of thin red oil, that used to leak all over till I sealed the shuttle control cover. #2. See pic: There is a yellow light on the dash, the only thing on the dash that actually works, haha. I don't fully understand what it's function is. I think it's telling me that the battery is discharging. When the key is on with the engine off, it's lit. Sometimes when I start the engine, it goes off, sometimes it stays on. If I rev up the engine it goes off and stays off. If the light is lit, the alternator makes no sparks. If the light is off, I can see the alternator brushes sparking. I've read the service, operator, and parts manuals several times and it doesn't say anything about this light...
I just gotta say this: You and your significant other have my complete admiration - you're both crazy, but in a good way. I'll be following along on your journey. Randall
I definitely have enough crazy in me for both of us, she's the one who keeps my feet on the ground, haha. She homeschools our two kids as well, she said she couldn't send them back to the public school system with a clear conscience after all the covid ******** that went on here... It's been a long interesting journey so far, I can't even remember what we did with our spare time before we bought our land upstate. I've pretty much been working 7 days a week since we got it. Lately we've been doing 4 days in the city and then 3 days in the mountains... I built my kids a tiny house that's insulated and has a vented propane heater, they even spend the night in there by themselves about once a month... I built most of it from extra materials and scraps from my projects in the city, and the kids insisted that they got to do all the painting themselves. I took them to Ace and said they could get anything they wanted from the mis-tint clearance shelf by the paint counter! Here's a pic of our cabin tent and the kid's "fort" as they call it:
When my wife an I decided to get out of the "township" where we lived in the early 90s and get out in the country where we are today, it was for many of the same reasons. Harrison Township here in MI was becoming a boaters paradise/party central. We sold our home and had just enough to get a dry-in log cabin structure -meaning no heating, plumbing, electrical etc.. So for over a year we improvised while she an I did the all the other stuff. I do remember rain water bucket showers as I am sure you are familiar with as well.
Here's the latest update, the bucket cylinder was the next seal to go, I finally got a good pic of what old gland seaks look like. They crumble apart as if it was made from brittle wax. It's definitely not original, the cylinders on this machine have clearly been rebuilt many times in the field by some rather ham fisted mechanics. I wonder if these were cheep off brand seals, or if there was something incompatible in the runny mayonnaise that used to run through this hydraulic system. This gland nut had been beaten on on nearly every surface and was quite distorted really bad in one spot on the outer lip and prevented the nut from screwing in the last turn or two and had been previously sealed by an entire roll Teflon tap. If it had been a smaller burr I'd be comfortable filing by hand, but this was over a pretty big area. Would be easy to clean up on a lathe. I have a old south bend lathe burried behind woodworking tools in my shop in the city a few hours away, and eventually I'll move it to my new shop here in the mountains, and I'm already up here til memorial day... I started filing it and realized it was going to take forever, so I figured I could grind off the bulk first... I got the idea to tack weld a quick bracket to my anvil to hold my angle grinder a fixed height like a mini surface grinder... I just had to file the face down flat and then carefully work the nut under the spinning disc and clean up the face of the nut that meets the cylinder. Worked perfectly! Hopefully my explanation makes sense, I recorded a quick video but not sure if I can share here
I had asked this question previously in this thread but then got sidetracked a bit, haha... There is a yellow light on the dash, the only thing on the dash that actually works! I don't fully understand what it's function is. I just noticed last week that at just the right angle you can see that it used to say "GEN". I think it's telling me that the battery is discharging. When the key is on with the engine off, it's lit. Sometimes when I start the engine, it goes off, but most times it stays on. If I rev up the engine on the carb by hand beyond full throttle, it goes off and stays off. If the light is lit, the generator makes no sparks. If the light is off, I can see the generator brushes sparking. I've read the service, operator, and parts manuals several times and it doesn't say anything about the function of this light... I suppose my main question is, why doesn't the generator just start generating when I start the engine? Why do I have to rev it up crazy fast first? This has caught me a few times where I forgot to rev it up and get it generating, and 20min later the engine dies with a dead battery... Is this a sign of a failing generator? Failing voltage regulator? Corroded wiring?
It is most likely a defective voltage regulator. Rather than spending any money on that outdated generator and regulator I would recommend that you convert to a one wire alternator. It has been discussed many,many times on HEF. Do a search for one wire alternator.
That's extremely helpful! I have a pretty extensive experience with all sorts of electronics and electrical engineering in many aspects besides vehicles/engines and I've always been perplexed why alternators had so many wires, but the one wire alternator makes so much sense! Thanks for sending me down that rabbit hole this morning! Dale at ebackhoeparts says he's out of voltage regulators, and doesn't sell one wire alternators, but plenty are available on Amazon. Hopefully it won't be too hard to rig up a mounting bracket. Now I want to get another 1 wire alternator to stick on my little garden tractor with an unused snowblower pto pulley to use as a mobile battery charger. Right now I have to drag my propane powered generator over to the tractor to charge the battery whenever it dies... Which is like once or twice every day I use the tractor, haha. It's like it will only start on a totally full battery and I only get one shot to crank it. So any issues with the carb, or vapor lock, or loose wires that keep it from starting in the first 2-3 seconds mean I have to give it a boost I'm thinking my next area to dive into is the ignition system. The spark plug wires are really old and I can feel a shock if I touch them. I also can't get the tractor to idle below about 1200rpm no matter how I adjust the carb, so I'm thinking that's telling me I need to look at the coil or distributor? All said though, this backhoe project has felt like a college course in engine repair, hydraulics, earthmoving, and cursing, haha! It's been a really great experience so far, and it's been a fun change of pace from doing carpentry and tree work. It's been 7 weekends since I bought this backhoe and I feel like I know every last piece of this machine now. I reached a point last weekend where I was using the backhoe and I realized how comfortable I was using the controls and didn't even have to look down at my hands, it's like I could just watch the bucket and think where I wanted it to go and it went there! Here's a pic of the clearing progress, before and after the backhoe. About 1/2 acre cleared. This was after a few weeks of clearing fallen trees and saplings... hopefully just one or two more weekend with the backhoe and I can start laying out the footings for my shop! And giant pile of stumps!
If it won't idle below 1200 rpms something is preventing the throttle plate in the carburetor from closing down to where it should be. If it isn't the idle set screw remove the carburetor and see what the problem is.
I've totally disassembled and cleaned the carb, and even have the zenith service manual for my specific model. I've adjusted the idle set screw and idle jet, I've taken the carb apart 4 times now tweeking the float valve. I've gone through the entire throttle and governor linkage... It just doesn't want to run below a certain rpm. It doesn't even try... It just sorta cuts out when I start backing down the idle set screw below about 1000-1200 rpm. Is there truly no mechanism for this idle issue to be related to the ignition system? It's why I think the engine is so hard to start as well, it only starts with a full battery spinning the starter at full speed, with enough voltage going to ignition coil. Anything less, no start. I don't even waste time attempting to start after the 2nd or 3rd try now cause it will just take longer to recharge. I just trudge over and drag the generator over to boost the battery wherever the engine decided to die this time... Edit: I hope you took all that the right way, I'm not trying to be difficult! I'm just trying to wrap my head around the issue... I'm totally willing to have another go at the carb if you think that's where you believe the problem is.
Zenith ? OR a Zenith style ? It should be a Marvel- Schebler. With or without a solenoid on it. What you describe is a problem with the idle jet. It may be damaged from having the set screw turned in too far/ hard. IMHO Have you tried screwing the idle mixture screw out to make run richer ? If it is set too lean it will cut out the slower you try to set the idle speed. Provided the float is adjusted and working properly.
I don't think it's original? Everything in my manuals shows a marvel schlebler... I've tried turning out the idle mix screw, i think it's supposed to be just two turns from closed. I tried backing it out a ways more but it didn't seem to help. The float is finally adjusted properly, it took several tries but I finally got it to run continuous at full throttle as well as not drip fuel when turned off. If I disassemble again, what should I look for? Is there a way to bench test the idle jets? I'm pretty fast at taking it apart and putting it back at this point. Oh, and PO said he tossed the air filter cause mice kept nesting in it... So who knows how long it ran without one... I found a cub cadet filter at the local ACE that fits over the intake perfectly for now...
Your alternator symptoms sound like a bad voltage regulator. If it is sparking visibly you may have some internal issue like a bad bearing, damaged slip rings, worn brushes, etc. Your machine is old enough that you probably have a mechanical voltage regulator. The contacts could be corroded or it is out of adjustment. As was mentioned a single wire alternator is the simplest solution but you won't have any indicator light to tell you when it is not working. There are several frame size GM alternators that are made into single wire models. A simple voltage gauge wired up would tell you if your alternator is working.
There is an outside chance you have a vacuum leak due to a leaking intake manifold gasket. Or somewhere else. I would prolly separate the exhaust and intake manifolds and look for a problem where they are joined together. A GM alternator can be converted to a simple three wire configuration. The indicator light and an ammeter will be fully functional. It is my preferred method.
When I say it sparks, I mean just the regular sparks you see on any brushed motor... It doesn't seem too excessive, and is a quick way to tell if it's working or not, especially since I have the hood off cause I'm tired of taking it off again and again, haha. I only have the one "GEN" light right now, no other guages or lights work, and I'd rather a voltage guage anyways. As far as the vacuum leak, are you saying that there could be a leak in the gasket between the intake and exhaust which is causing exhaust to go into the intake instead of the air fuel mix from the carb? Which would cause a lack of suction on the carb intake? Even if the old gasket was fine, I would need a new gasket on hand when I go to reassemble, correct? I do need to replace the exhaust manifold at some point. It's currently cracked clean through on the section that connects to the end cylinder. One of the very first repairs I did to this machine was to wrap that area with exhaust patch cause it was blowing hot soot at the gas tank and was noisy.
It is normal for a generator's brushes to create sparks when it is charging. A volt or ammeter can be added to the charging circuit. Take the manifolds off and look for vacuum leaks everywhere. Hopefully it is a gasket. If you feel creative make some plates to seal the intake manifold ports and the carb flange. Drill a hole on one of them so it can be pressurized with compressed air. If it has leaks they will be quite obvious. Manifolds for your gas 188 should be available in salvage yards. Exhaust manifolds can be repaired with a spray welding process.
If you suspect intake or carb leaks you can use a can of ether or brake cleaner or carb cleaner and spray the intake manifold/ carb assy while your machine is running at idle and listen for the engine to speed up. That should tell ya if you're sucking air somewhere.
There is no interior suction system or filter on the suction side. If you fill the reservoirs properly by removing the pipe plugs (1/4 ) up on the loader frames at the radiator shell and keep bleeding the air out up front as you fill and then when all the air is out filling it to level you will have done it properly. Be careful your choice of oil, in my career I have seen many with crumbly V cups and I think poor oils are to blame for some of that. The white plastic cap with the spring clamp up in the 4 speed area is there to seal a tube that goes up into the shuttle housing, that same transmission case was used in ag tractors of that era and a hose was attached in ag applications to return Draft Control piston leakage to the front so as to not contaminate the 90 wt with the Hytran used in the front shuttle box in case of draft control piston seal failure. Occasionally they are missing in backhoe and can cause oil transfer.
That's really helpful, thanks! So you are saying there is no suction tube inside the loader frame reservoir that goes further below the fitting on the frame that connects to the pump input? Also, there is only a 1/4" plug on the front right side frame by the radiator, not on the left, which doesn't make any sense to me. Is there always a giant air cavity on the front of the left side frame? The left side frame only has the two hydraulic line connections, the top 1/4" vent, and the bottom 3/4" drain plug that is actually a few inches up from the bottom creating a nearly impossible to clean area. After the flush when I refilled, I put a 1/4 npt to 3/8 hose barb adapter in place of that plug and put a 5' length of clear hose clamped up to the muffler so I could see the air bleed out as I filled. When I filled a third time after rebuilding some cylinders, I realized could just back the plug out til I could hear the air hiss out, and then close when oil starts to flow. It's pretty messy trying to remove the hose barb and replace the plug I learned. I've been refilling with traveller iso 46 oil, it's affordable and availabile at the red farmer walmart nearest to me. The oil in the system finally cleared up, between a blown hose, rebuilding cylinders, and all the little leaks, I've added almost 10 more gallons since the flush. Questions about the shuttle... What is the level the oil should be in the shuttle reservoir? Manual shows a dipstick on the cap on the torque tube, but I just have a cap only. Also, this is just a fully mechanical gearbox right? Just the shuttle and the high/low range box. No clutches or torque converters. No hydraulics. Why can't I put any machine oil here? Right now its a reddish fluid, and the only oil on this machine that wasn't milky, even though the shuttle cover plate had no gasket and leaked all around, so I'm sure there's water in there. This is also the last reservoir on the machine that I haven't flushed, and based on the terrifying globs that came out of every other reservoir I know it's gonna be ugly... My thinking is, this is a 55 year old machine that has clearly been through the ringer, and it's been neglected for years... Somehow it's still ripping out stumps and piling them up... I really don't have any reason to drive this around out here in the woods in anything other than low 1st or high 1st. The gears make a bit of noise in low. Why not just throw some 90w gear oil in there? I can't imagine using this in the winter up here in the mountains. How is this gearbox any different than the one right next to it with the 4 speed?
I have a 480ck with a 148b engine. I think the 580ck has the 188? I found a manual for the 580 and other that having a lot more options for shuttle and torque converters, they are almost identical in construction, just mine is slightly smaller.
The 480CK was was produced with either the 148B gas or 188 diesel engine.
I would not put heavy oil in the front box. Heavy oil will not flow as quickly as the light Hytran oil, all those ears run at engine speed and heavy oil may not flow back as quickly. there are gears that run on sleeves with no bearings at all. I would stay with the light viscosity oils.
Sorry, yes, you are correct, I was thinking of the 159g engine I read about in the manual for the 580. I was looking for a new dipper cylinder, so I went to a salvage yard nearby who said they had a whole row of case backhoes, but all were diesel, and none were a 480ck or 580ck...
That makes sense, thanks for explaining! Any idea about the fill level? Looking at the cross section above, it shows the dipstick just sticking below the main shaft, and I don't believe I've ever seen a dipstick where the full line wasn't an inch or so up from the end of the stick. Safe to assume "full" is where the oil level is just covering the main shaft? Also that cross section is a bit confusing at first until you realize the final drive on the left is shown as a horizontal section, and the 4sp and shuttle are shown in a vertical section...
It is not uncommon for the dipstick to be broken off of the plug (cap).
Ripped out a giant stump from a 100' white pine that was unfortunately located. Took about 3hrs of machine time. Not sure when it happened, but the steel line to the bucket cylinder got snagged and kinked. Noticed that bucket only moved at half speed. Tried to heat and hammer back, but it was too much. So I spliced in a random scrap of 3/4 black pipe that I carefully bent up with a vise and the oxy acetylene torch. I finally got to put my ornamental iron work skills to work on this beast!
Here's a few more pics of the backhoe loading the sawmill.
I also flushed the torque tube reservoir. About a pint of water came out first. Anyone have any idea what this red fluid is? I replaced it with 5 gallons of straight 30 conventional motor oil that I had picked up awhile ago at a clearance price. Also, the shuttle cover is missing the breather assembly. This is the only place I have found where the service manual shows something I can't find in the parts manual. My parts manual shows a few other covers, but nothing like this one.
Unreal. The work you're doing is way outta my league. Nice . Hard to imagine that little Case is managing those loads.
Update on the carburator: It's definitely something up with the idle jets, thanks for pointing me in that direction! I had to turn the idle screw out 5 turns to even start to make a difference, but the screw wants to fall out around 6-7 turns. Called carbdoc.com and asked about a rebuild kit. He said the Zenith I have is the listed replacement for the Marvel Schlebler. A rebuild kit was $34 and is now sitting on my shelf to install next weekend. I looked over the intake manifold and it seems to be in good shape. I didn't want to pull it to check the gasket till I have the replacement parts on hand, but I'm pretty sure it's just the carb that needs work for now. Thanks again for the helpful advice!
If you post the tractor serial number it would help (maybe) find that breather assembly.
1968 Case 480CK SN: 8363251 I suppose what I really need to figure out is the thread size, and I could bend up a pipe elbow and put a little NPT breather at the end.
Atta boy, just make it work.
Looks like ATF milkshake, stick yur finger in and taste it, you'll know, or you could do the finger tip feel and smell test.
That looks like a common hydraulic breather from that era, I've seen them in 3/4" but they could come in 1" too? It has a filter of sorts inside, more of a honeycomb of some material to keep the bigger bugs out. The top screw is typically not water tight anymore and will leak rainwater, I'd Jbweld the screw to the cover, then you turn the cover and the screw comes out with it. Remove cover and filter and it acts like a filler, can fit a small funnel, or it holds a siphon tube.
I've been using these breathers as replacements for the ones on top of the loader frame, they seem really high quality (link) I guess what I need more is the nut and 90deg tube shown in the illustration, or at least an adapter for the cover to npt threads and I can take it from there. I guess I'll pull out my thread gauge and caliper next time I'm there and see if I can determine what type of fitting it is.
Gotcha, I misunderstood the parts. That part diagram and those threads don't look NPT. I could guess at the thread type, but I'd probably just use a PVC conduit elbow and stick it in with silicone, or heat it and expand then thread it in and seal with a bead of silicone. A threaded adapter and breather filter and it will be better than it was new.
Another option is to get a NPT tap and retread it.
That would work for sure, but I really don't want to pull that cover back off if I can help it. That's the cover that requires hoisting up the gas tank and steering column to remove, and it's really tricky to put back because the shuttle and range selector forks both have to align with the collars, and it's all by feel with no way to see inside with all the stuff in the way... And I already sealed it with permatex and bolted it tight to stop it from leaking fluid around the perimeter of the cover whenever I drive it. I think the reason it is a tube with a swivel nut is so the tube can stay stationary while the nut is tightened because this all fits in a tight spot between the loader frame and under the clutch pedal. Ok
I'm working on resealing the final 4 cylinders on this machine, leaving one stabilizer as is because somehow it's the only cylinder that hasn't leaked a drop yet. This pic is from last weekend when I took them apart. The two lift cylinder seals were both intact, but oozing, every other seal breaks apart like candle wax. Using a boring bar on my lathe in the city to clean out the recess for the gland seal. It originally had paper gasket shims behind the the main seal. They trap water and then rust. Some cylinders are really bad and I can't clean out the recess with a pick. I'm using the boring bar as a scraper, just turning the chuck by hand and carefully adjusting the cutter so it just scrapes the surface and takes off a very tiny layer of metal. I don't have the sort of internal measuring tools to do this with any precision. Also this gland nut material is such a weird metal. It seems so soft and easily marred, and it machines like butter. Anyone know they alloy? I don't have much machining experience, but I know this feels different than regular steel.
Update! Cleaning out glands with the lathe made all the difference! I've rebuilt all the cylinders on this machine now, but I have to go back and redo the boom cylinder, I did that one first and it's still leaking, I assume around the backside of main gland seal. I'll have to take that one off and run it on the lathe. This backhoe boom cylinder is such a bad design. There is no boom lock, and all the weight of the hoe is on the boom gland seal. You'd think they would have had the boom cylinder below the boom so it pushes to lift, instead of pulling to lift. Right now I have to reach back and pull it up every 5 min or so. Also need to do some work on the swing tower manifold, it's a mangled mess and one hose just bypasses it but is a bit too short, so I can't extend boom all the way... But I got it all put back together and got about 6 hours of work out of it! It was so much work being my own ground guy, constantly jumping out to hook chains or toss rocks in the bucket... So I taught my 9yo son how to operate and understand hand signals. He picked it up quick and ended up running it for about 3 hours following me around moving rocks
I finally fixed the idle issue. It was a combination of the carburator, spark plugs, and timing. I rebuilt the carb, I only ended up using 20% of the kit contents. mainly just a few gaskets and a new float valve. Lots of extra parts that didn't apply unfortunately... The old idle screw was way nicer and a better fit than the new replacement, and it didn't come with a new idle jet. I'm not sure if I actually fixed anything? The old spark plugs were in decent shape, but all four were only finger tight!!! I put in 4 new ones with the correct gap and torqued to 35ftlbs. I checked timing with a timing light, it was running at about 40deg btdc! Moved it back to 25deg. Also put a new distributor cap on, old wires are missing boots and lots of corrosion on top sockets of old cap. Had a set of new wires, but the wrong sizes were sent and some were too short so I brushed the ends of the old wires and reinstalled. Now I can turn the idle screw and the idle jet and the engine responds immediately to my adjustments, I can idle the engine down to just a few hundred rpm now and it will stay running.
I was putting it off as long as possible, but eventually I couldn't rev fast enough to kick the generator on, so I replaced with an alternator. Napa only had 3 wire alternators in stock. Had to make custom brackets out in the woods, unfortunately forgot to take a pic of lower bracket. Also put in a voltage guage to see when it's charging. I only hooked it up as a two wire right now, I couldn't find a diode for the exite wire. But I can see the alternator kick on a few seconds after starting and it seems to stay running even when idling, so maybe I won't need the excite wire?
Last week I also noticed when rebuilding stabilizer cylinders that the stabilizer bushings were extremely worn. One worn clear through! I realized how little they actually worked to hold the machine still while digging, the loader was doing all the work to resist the backhoe force. I ordered new bushings from Dale at e-backhoeparts.com. He was able to find substitute bushings for $18 each instead of $100+ each. I used a torch to cut out all the old bushings and welded in the bushing that hard worn through. Got it all out back together and it's so much nicer using the hoe now, it feels so solid! No more sliding back and forth constantly.
So after getting all the above fixed, I ran the machine hard for about 6 hours yesterday leveling out the ground for my shop foundation. I started to notice I was leaving lots of oil drops on the ground, way more than normal. I looked underneath, and I could see a steady drip from my right brake housing... Had about an hour before we had to pack up and head home for the week, so I quickly tore into it so I could get parts coming. It ended up being the seal on shaft between the differential and the brakes. Unfortunately, I see now that I may have been able to replace that seal without pulling the whole housing. I mangled up the shims and when I pulled the housing I lost almost all the new gear oil I had added after flushing just 2-3 weeks ago. Question 1: I had used 85-140 gear oil instead of 80-90, figuring I'm not using this in high gear or in the winter, and the thicker oil would be better for the old gears. It is possible that's what blew out the seal? Question 2: the brake pads got soaked in gear oil. Can I just soak in solvent and burn off with a torch? My ground is pretty flat, I'm not taking this in high gear on the road. I only use the brakes for turning sharp or when it wants to roll slightly when I push the clutch to shift. What can go wrong? My makeshift shop in the woods is really getting out of hand, so I spent some time organizing tools on pallets. I'm new to all this mechanic stuff, I'm used to using saws and drills and carpentry tools, not wrenches and sockets, etc.
The pic with your son in the saddle is priceless.
seeing all that chocolate milkshake oil come out of your backhoe gives me hope for the power shuttle that I just drained milkshake out of yesterday. time to start flushing. Brian
The brake pads should clean up if you caught them early. I had a truck with new brake pads that got a little oil soaked. The brake shop put them under a bunch of heat lamps and cleaned them up. After cooking the oil out you could lightly sand them or maybe use a wire brush in your grinder to give them a new surface.
its a problem with the voltage regulator or stuck or worn brushes in the generator
Wow, impressive work on the Case 480ck! Flushing the torque tube reservoir sounds like a smart move, especially if you noticed water contamination that could explain why the red fluid looked off. I’ve seen similar issues on older equipment where moisture sneaks in and mixes with the hydraulic fluid, causing strange colors and reduced performance. On a side note, if you’re ever dealing with smaller equipment maintenance or even repairs around the workshop in Singapore, I’ve found that calling in a reliable team can save a lot of trial-and-error. For instance, Handyman Services Singapore recently helped with a hydraulic lever housing repair at a local sawmill, making sure everything ran smoothly without downtime, you can learn more about their carpentry and repair services. It’s amazing how that little Case is handling such heavy loads, really shows the versatility of these machines. Keep us posted on how the breather assembly situation turns out; I’m curious how that part integrates with the shuttle cover since it’s missing in the parts manual.