Two weeks ago in the early hours of the morning, I suddenly lost forward motion.( I was going backwards at the time but facing that way so its forward in my book ) At first I thought it was a fuel problem but quickly realised that the grinding of gears and the jumping of the machine with a lack of normal motion meant a more serious problem. I thought a hub had failed but all felt cold ( not very busy ) The smell was indescibable, not burning brake or clutch smell but very strong and from the machine. Conversations with Atlas service and later ZF transmissions led to the order of a replacement gearbox from Germany. No drain plugs were touched as I did not want to void any possibility of a warranty claim. The experienced amongst you can see where this is going On Sunday I assisted in the changeover of the gearbox and have pics to share. :wink2 The worst part was access to the 3x 20mm hex head bolts that hold the box from the top. It weighs over 100kg
Part 2 You knew there was more :Banghead:Banghead:Banghead The box went in well and was run without propshafts connected and all seemed fine There was excessive whine once the props were on and I was not happy with the new box. ( not thinking straight ) I put the drive underload ( dug the blade in ) and no problems, shunted back and forth in low & high all seemed ok so I took it for a ride. All was ok until I turned sharp left It took a little while to find the true problem. But suffice to say we are confident we have nailed it this time :Banghead The only thing in the parts book that matches are the crown wheel bolts,
Special for Zaxis As my machine is out of action and the job has to go on I have had to bring in a hire ( rental ) machine. :woohoo Hey Zaxis look what I got to play with just had its 150hr service :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy Good ole Hitachi provided the heavy lifting gear needed on Sunday for the gearbox that wasn't needed There you go mate, every cloud has a silver lining I might be :deadhorse but you get pics of your favourite toys. :wink2 :yup
You broke it, you buy it. :Banghead It coulda been worse!
Those bolts don't look bad, just need a little tread chaser to dress them up:lmao
Ouch... That's the transfer case right??? and then the front differental? I friend of mine has a few Drott 40... I have given him a hand changing a transmission, Like working on a big pickup. What was that worth??? Good luck :canada
Main gearbox, which we now know was not the problem :Banghead and will have to be swapped back as it will not be covered as a warranty claim. :beatsme The box to me would have been £3950 with £800 back once they had the old one returned. But would most likely have been a warranty job so FOC. The axle will hopefully be the same result, fingers crossed The back axle is the problem, which is why it took us a little while to prove the fault. We all but convinced ourselves that it must be the front axle or hub making the grunching/ bang, when on full lock. It was the horrible whine that convinced us to drop the oil in the back and investigate further. There was no obvious oil contamination and it wasn't until a finger was poked in the drain hole that things became obvious The fitter said it was a new one to him Just lucky the bolts were small enough to get out the hole else we would still be scrathing our heads I was suprised that there was no noise during the 3 night shifts I punted the machine up and down the carriageway in neutral. :idontgetit Then it was explained that the props and crown wheel would not have been moving in that senario. The wheels would have been rotating around the planetrys. :bash
Well Good Luck... Hopefully you can back to working it again.... Should have bought a CAT
:lmao:lmao:lmao:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh O man your killing me
oi, did you like the hired machine or was your trusty broken rig better?
Got to like the hired one,..................................... Its working, mine isn't :Banghead Seriously, I wouldnt rush to swap, but I have been operating Atlas ducks continuously for over 6 years so I'm not likely to be biased Negatives, I think the cab is narrow and very busy / crowded. Joysticks are bulky. Dont like the footbrake lock, you only know its on by looking at the dash light, and if reverse is selected the dash is taken over by camera, which is too bright for nights though it can be cancelled. Switches under front edge of right arm rest are difficult to access, wiper, work lights, deadman. Haven't managed to seperate seat from arm pods but that is probably me. Machine seems very high and has poor visibility in my opinion. Positives. Like rollers on joysticks but haven't needed to use them yet. Auto climate control. Resposive and precise in operation. Travels well and fast, Cant praise or dis its performance as what I am doing is not testing enough, generally a good ride and I understand why people like them. and most important IT WORKS :drinkup
Sorry to see you with all that hassle Rob. Can we be assured that it isn't you doing the handbrake turn at full speed in a Duck on 'You tube'? It really has to be seen to be believed, and it's even on a road job!! I have seen some serious lumps of metal come out of a JS130w diff, and luckily that went on to 13000 hours with no trouble. A JS160w wasn't so lucky on a long travel to site, it turned the transmission Blue and promptly dumped all the oil out of the cooked seals. However it was very quickly replaced under warranty. Hope your claim is successful That Hitachi certainly looks nice, i've always rated the Ducks from them and would certainly like a shift in one of the new ones. As for the clown who said 'you should have bought a CAT', he's certainly never driven a Rubber Duck from them!!
The Duck Here I have operated a "duck" wheeled excavator, Cat and Drott. The Cat was better then the Drott but I wouldn't want to be on the road steady with either one.. The ducks never really caught on over here, basically city and town works dept have them. Never heard of your brand of machine before Rob. I understand Terex builds it. Well are you almost finished putting it back together ???? :drinkup
Terminology Interpretation: AtlasRob Rob, ( If I may ) I've been following this thread topic since you started it; as I find it interesting how people diagnose and fix problems with their machines... and, I'm not a " know it all wrench head "... a term I've seen posted on this site; just some what mechanically inclined... I've also done a bit of reading on your very excellent web site; some what surprised at the extensive security features you use, but that's how it goes I guess...I digress, so on to the title. Do these correlate? Duck= excavator... boom, stick, bucket, 360 deg. rotation, track machine. Rubber Duck= excavator... rubber tired. Crown wheel= ring gear in a differential. Punted= moved machine with boom, stick, and/or bucket. Fitter= mechanic, or service personnel. Enough for now, and thank you... OCR
Thanks Rob, great details on the machine from a veteran operator. How long did it take you to just jump in and go? Not refering to the other stuff like lights, gadgets and the like. Was it pretty much get in and go? I'm asking from a novice operator of sorts. Cheers
Wasn't me Eddie, not good enough for stunts like that You missed the stratigically placed very important when you cant see somebodys face Originally Atlas, but ye now Terex Atlas, same factory different owners with quite a few changes. Added in next post Thank you for you comments, and I would say you are spot on, except for the Duck / Rubber Duck. In that they are the same :thumbsup I honestly dont know how a wheeled excavator came to be called a Rubber Duck. I have heard several ideas and the one I like best is if you see one over a hedge travelling along the road it looks remarkable like a rubber duck bobbing across a pond. :beatsme As for security In the UK we loose over £1m plant a week, with less than 5% recovery. Straight in ( smart ass, sorry ). Serious note when changing over to another rubber duck. Check how the axle locks work BEFORE you need them That was my only concern, and once I was confident of them we were rolling. For the non Duck operators. The front axle generally ( all I have operated ) has 3 different modes. Bear in mind this axle pivots on a centre pin where as rear axle is fixed solid to chassis. 1 axle free to oscillate, used for road travel, wheels follow contours of ground. 2 axle free as 1, except when the footbrake is activated / locked on. 3 axle locked rigid, used for pick and carry. The Hitachi is different in that 1 ( free ) 2 is AUTO lock which activates as you stop moving. Dont like this as it would be easy to be lifting with axle locked, need to inch forwards or back a few inches, and axle could unlock. ( I did not double check the manual and am not 100% sure about the exact operation of this feature ) I just made sure I did not rely on it and 3 locked. Taken with my previous comment about the footbrake warning light you will understand why I was wary of the auto feature.
crown wheel The new differencial arrived on Thursday morning from Germany and after a lot of work juggling by Terex service dept they managed to get a fitter to me by midday on Friday. Being on short night shifts, (due to traffic management on the Motorway we work 22:00 - 05:00 ) I got up at 10am on Friday and started pulling bits off the machine By the time the fitter arrived I had the propshaft disconnected all 4 wheels off, 6 of 8 bolts out of axle hangers and all bolts on differential case loose. Timbers in place and would have dropped the axle and lifted the machine clear but I had no bungs to blank off the brake pipe :Banghead
With a bit of assistance from the baby Hitachi we soon parted the axle which confirmed what we already knew. We could see another bolt completely out and at least another two very loose. Rebuild was very straight forward except this is England, so it rained, no, it poured down and we both got wet. Like the gearbox, not a one man job but with two it was fairly straight forward. I lifted and pushed the machine clear of the axle and did the reverse to get it back. It was just a case of a bit of bar work to line the bolt holes up and bingo. By 19:00 I had tested it :thumbsup just in time for a shower change into dry cloths some food and back to work. I still used the hired Hitachi as there was only 2 nights left to do and no point in paying for a lowloader move. Tomorrow morning I am back on my own machine BUT still have a gearbox to change back :Banghead probably next Saturday. Forgot to mention the shipping paperwork stated the diff was 90kg and I believe them. lol
So ATlastRob did you get any warranty??? Good Luck again
Thank you Rob, I get the picture, looking over a hedge row... boom up a little, part of the cab visible, pitching up and down a bit...:exactly... :yup. Hard for me to tell...:duh... from the photos... the bolts that hold the crown gear to the cage (carrier) got loose, and some even fell out? I don't savvy this one at all. Unless there is a disengagement mechanism in the diff., or outboard some place like "hubs" on a pickup... if the wheels turn, they drive the axles through the planetary's, axles drive diff., diff. drives prop shafts... and that drives me ...:crazy...lol Thanks Rob, for the reply on ducks... don't waste a bunch of time on the rest of this. All the best...OCR
The verdict is still out, but I am very optimistic I fully understand your confusion and I hasten to add I am NOT a qualified spanner juggler I have copied the diff from the parts manual which I hope will clarify the bolts for you. And yer, they worked loose :beatsme which is how we recovered the 2 + half in one of the previous pictures. The second picture is the outer end of the axle, showing the hub, top hat ( because of its shape) My understanding is that the wheels rotate around the half shaft via the planetry gears ( 3 of in top hat ) as a result the half shafts do not need to turn and as such the crown wheel would not turn. The automatic gearbox was in neutral as I had followed the disengagement procedure which involved pumping grease into a relief valve. The more I look at this, the more I understand your question. :beatsme But again, I have difficulty in understanding why, when the wheels are in the air and I turn oneside clockwise the opposite side turns tother way. Surely this is via the half shafts, but the prop doesn't turn. Do any gear specialists want to comment / explain ? Sorry pictures in wrong order, but sure you will suss it out
out for a spin Actually got a chance to take the machine for a drive to really test it. Its about 3 miles each way and then down a narrow track to get access to the toe of a batter that needs a tidy up. Worked perfect :drinkup Once there I found the duck was too big and requested the baby Hitachi I had used as a crane. The pictures show why I like the luggage rack on the engine cover rather than on the roof :cool2
Glad to see you back in action Rob. That Duck looks a really tidy tool, but I nearly fell of my seat to see the Stabiliser legs on it. Love to know your thoughts on them? I find they make the front just long enough to take a Patio table and Chairs for a long lunch with your mates!! Did you manage any fuel comparison with that Hitachi? I've always found them very economical.
Glad to see your back in your own rig. Downtime isn't fun. Having to rent to keep up really adds insult to injury. Around here it is very difficult to rent wheeled excavators. If you can find one, it can be a minimum one month rental. I would assume wheeled excavators are much more common there. I hope you didn't get hit for more rent than what you actually needed the machine for. A month of rent here is in the ballpark of $6000.00/month. How does this compare with the rates you see in your market?
O man, you dont know the half of it When it came it was a dining table.............. yes 4 bloody legs, can you imagine the stick I got I ordered a 1505 but due to problems at the last moment they couldn't supply and I had already sold my 1304M to Ireland, short story, look at the pics and alot more money :Banghead I found out what the legs are for after a few days :thumbsup I dont worry about fuel economy as it is supplied, and to be honest I am not pushed . I did find the fuel figure on the Zaxis while investigating the computer. It had 170+ hrs on the meter and had averaged 6. ? ( think it was 1 ) lt hr, which I remember thinking 2 shifts on a tank but dont even know size of the tank so that was a stupid assumption. But you know what I mean We are very lucky with the sort of rental / hire market we have in the UK and take it for granted we can get what we want when we want it, though that isnt always the case That machine cost me £600wk with weeks min hire. + transport + breaker. I had a choice, machine broke dont work until its fixed, or hire whats required earn my wages, pay the hire and have a bit towards my own repayments AND keep a customer happy :cool2. Not ideal but we dont live in a perfect world. I know it could have been a lot, lot worse. :drinkup Thinking about it. Our prices aren't that far apart, its the month hire that would have killed it for me
Are bare rentals more common there or do most rental machines come with operator? Do you have to compete with the rental houses to get your company on a jobsite? If so, does offering a large number of attachments to give you an advantage over rental equipment? Many backhoe services here in Atlanta fell by the wayside as the rental houses grew into huge corporations. Kind of a blessing and a curse at the same time... Hard to compete against those with so much buying power but really nice when you need something specific for a one time job!
In the UK you can rent ( we say hire ) any machine from a baby exc to a high reach demo The biggest market I would say is mini digger up to 20t and you can have them with or without op, but most common without. I think the hire companies have trouble keeping good operators, they go on a job and get nicked by the hirer As an owner operator with a duck I am providing a niche service. In just under 7yrs the shortest hire was 16 weeks and that was in the middle of 9 back to back jobs on different sites for the same Contractor spanning 5 yrs, so you see the rental houses dont cause me a problem I get hired because its me, and what I can do and people know that. Its as I've said before in other posts, its WHO you know as much as WHAT you know. My contacts have been built up over the past 20yrs while operating other peoples machines. I still have to fight for every penny I can get on the rate but thats life. As for buckets and attachments, they make the difference towards the end of a contract when machines get off hired. The machine with the full range of digging buckets, oscillating bucket, breaker, pallet forks, block grab, lifting gear etc has a much better chance of staying, especially if the operator is helpful I think that the 180 hire market is more operated, and I would say a large proportion are owner operators or only a few machines, though that market took a severe beating with the intoduction of midi exc on rubber tracks.
Thanks a bunch! You answered a ton of questions I had about a market I know nothing about. I do appreciate that you have earned your current status. Shows in your professionalism. In twenty plus years of working for contractors (almost all highway maintenance) including a short run of six years on my own with a Hyundai R55W, I have had the priveledge of learning to operate many types and brands of iron. As far as wheeled excavators go it has been the most fun. First time was a Case 1085B followed by a Badger 1085C. What beasts! Fast on the downhill runs, too. Then they got a Deere 595D. More conventional and by then I was an avid fan of excavators on wheels. This was followed by a M316 from Europe. I was lost to this one. Still miss her when I see her on other projects. I know a lot of you guys aren't Cat fans. That's okay because I haven't had the chance to run 'em all yet. I have to go with what I know. That M316 replaced two skid steers with hammers and a backhoe with hammer. Because I now had full swing and a bunch of lift capacity, I got tons more hours per season just on bridge rehab. Loved the size and weight. Very nimble. However, on dirt and base jobs it would have been nice to be a size or two bigger. Did you have a hard time choosing the size machine you wanted to buy?
Wow Case 1085, biggest I played with was 988, got that bogged in an old PFA pond, but thats another story I only ever played on 1 C@t duck a M315 for a couple of shifts and I wont slag it. I have heard all sorts of bad / negative comments about them, but not from personal experience. I know an ex o/o who ran a M320 and loved it to bits :beatsme I know guys who would walk away from a job rather than run a Case duck, but prior to buying my own its what I operated most and have no serious problems with them. As for size :beatsme my first idea was to have a big machine with the intention of replacing the 20t tracked machines on carriageway widening but investigation led me to believe there was as good a demand for a 13t machine with more versitility as a wheelbarrow goffa etc . plus the ass end on narrow carriageways would have been an issue which is how I settled on a 13t size. After a lot ( over 6 months) of hunting for a machine I bought a 6yr old Atlas 1304M, then after about a year I added a 1404M and ran 2 for over a year. When the other guy wanted out I sold the 13t and traded the 14t and bought a brand new 1304M. This time I intended up sizing to a 15t but due to unforseen circumstances ended up with a 17tonner. Strangely the dimensions of the two are the same. The extra power and road speed are great, the problem is the machine cost a lot more than I intended paying. I wouldn't have ordered: Nokia road tyres, night heater, front legs, extra double action hyd circuit, high speed gearbox or 6cyl engine, total ext in region of £20,000 and I dont get anymore on the rate :Banghead but hey the world aint perfect:drinkup O yer, and it breaks down :bash
They all break down sooner or later. Always when you can least afford it. You have much longer to go on the M25? Know what is coming next? Is widening the primary work now or do you do more drainage work. (Saw the pics of your work tiptoeing around the utilities. Well done.) I know what you mean about counterweight clearance. I'm thinking a 20t would be more competitive here. We tend to have a little more room and the jobs with our department of transportation are geared more toward the larger contractor. Never enough room when behind temporary barrier wall, though. Always wondering if the next wide load has your number on it...
Come to think of it, a zero radius wheeled excavator would be a welcome site. I saw a New Holland that was pretty close once. I don't know if they still make them. I think it was called the "City" model.....? Looked like about a 130 size rig.
Atlas used to do a reduced but not zero, think it was an MK, was, is. Just went and checked. The old 1404MK is still in the listings along with the new designation which is TW ( Terex Wheeled ) Also found out that the UK site is up and running at long last so I will have to tweak the hyperlinks on my web pages more maintenance The M25 job is very near completion but as I am the only duck direct to the contractor ( there are 2 with the earthworks co ) I expect by the end of next month I will be looking for something else. Hopefully I have added a few more contacts to my list to aid me in my searching.
All Done Well its done Swapped the gearboxes back this morning so I'm now all legit and ready for some proper action. ( fingers crossed ) Wiped the replacement down very carefully and popped it back in the wrapper like it had never been used, just been on an outing. It gave us a chance to do thinks different this time. We dropped the box out with the drive pump still attached. It meant disconnecting several pipes and plugging them. We were concerned about balance on the trolley jack, its about 200kg ( gearbox is 150kg on shipping note) and we couldn't afford any mishaps, but it went OK. Last time it was a real mission to get the pump splines lined up. This time it was a piece of cake, literally seconds to slip it in. We then hijacked a forklift which with a small pallet was the near perfect lifting device. I say near perfect as the forks could have been a few inches longer to aid safety but we managed and no I didnt scratch the duck On the way home got an urgent phone call and as a result will be testing the machine earlier than expected. Back to site for 21:00 tonight for a shift :beatsme
All Done... This is good my friend: Rob, :thumbsup Good job, now you can go make the "big bucks" again... at lest that's what the Gov. tells us about fire fighting... " That's why we pay you the big bucks " A rather irritating statement, specially when it's not exactly correct... And now I won't have to stare at any more gear pictures...:duh... One point though. This would be normal in that configuration. I also made up a post with few puns about your situation and ducks...hope you find at least a little humor in it. Rob, I think I smell something fowl here... I also suspect some form of quackery too. Might be a poultry attempt to duck the warranty, and stick you with the whole bill ...:wink2... OCR
Might be normal but still does my head in You my friend have toooooo much spare on your hands, thanks :drinkup
Glad to see your steppin up in the world!! Thanks for thinking of me. Those are great pics (I like the luggage rack on top) even though your "rubber duckie" was down. As far as ducks (as you gents call them) go, I dont think you can beat a Hitachi for dependability & for fuel savings. Sincerely, ZAXIS
Pretty impressive