...but not chunks/bearing bits. 84H493 - antique/old farm dozer. Slowly making progress on getting side panels, skid plates and floor boards off to clean/inspect/service machine Prior owner told me he’s been using 15w40 in all systems... I’m glad he kept everything topped off; but believe I can better match (modern) oils to the different systems. Before I go dumping all the oils/filters thought I should keep checking for leaks/issues...of course previous owner said all works fine and ready to go. But figured, let me see what’s in the trans screen/magnet before we take it out... Three large threaded rod sections run from the left-side to right side fenders (can see middle one running thru inside of cab)...my guess they hauled the whole cab, fenders, tank, seat, etc right off...for what, can only guess, but maybe the trans was overhauled and this is remnants of partial clean up?? Or sign of good times to come... Gotta luv leaving the scene with more questions/doubts than answers...
Cleaned the chunks to see all the goodness...
Looks to be whats left of a straight roller bearing
Hopefully you have caught it in time . Rest of the bearing will be around the drain plug .
"84H493 - antique/old farm dozer" In common terms what is it?
I do believe that what we have here is a D5 dozer.
I started to put it together with that username, but who can be sure? some fellas have more than one piece of old iron.
“What we have here is, a failure to lubricate..” (communicate) lol
Reminds of the time two prostitutes in England were talking. One asked the other had she been picked up by the fuzz. She said no, but had been swung around by the tit.
Looks like a failed clutch drum bearing.
You guys crack me up...still picturing the prosTITute “swing”!!! skyking- good point- shoulda said it’s from my D5 which I believe the ole girl to be ‘67 with the D333 (not positive if it’s an A-engine/small bore; but pretty sure it is). The antique/farm dozer expression is to explain it will remain on property/area, it’s not needing to move from job to job for “real” production work. I guess that info doesn’t matter since NONE of us want our machines to fail - walking home sucks - then the tow-home can be fun too realize my bearing pics had/have no reference to their size...I’ve been looking in my parts book at the tranny and I’m not seeing this small of a bearing...Vetech63, thanks for the lead on where this might be from!! revised plan now is NOT to pull the rams for the blade to repack (still need to find cat seal “kit” anyway). Focus on dropping the trans fluid to see if the rest of the bearing is there. Man I wish I had parked it up on a couple 2x10’s to get my fat ass more room under the machine...and if I’m understanding the spec section of manual I need to plan for 13 gallons that will come out of two drains...like in Jaws - I’m gonna need a bigger boat! I believe my large drain pan is 5 gallons...Need a barrel I can cut up (50/50 if I cut it standing up; or laying down??). I need to study the books again, I was thinking this magnetic screen I pulled out was for trans and bevel gear area and the clutches are in separate/dry area??
An easy way to identify a D333 motor it has a belt driven water pump, which is what your tractor should have. Bob
I haven't work on that model of dozer but the Cats I do have experience with use the same oil for the transmission, bevel gear and steering clutches. There is a lot of steel on those magnets. How did the strainer basket look? Most of those types of strainers end up looking like that but the bearing pieces are a little troubling. I have to agree with Vetech63 on it likely being a clutch drum bearing or a support bearing for the bevel gear or final drive. It's the only bearing I can think of that can breakup and end up in the bottom of the case. Transmission bearings usually just get mashed in the gear train and lock up the transmission.
I think that tractor has dry steering clutches . The bevel gear case and the transmission which has the torque converter inside it have separate oil. Bob
Needle Roller bearing on for one of the planetary gears by the looks of those needles. Quite a few of them in there. Not sure if this is the correct part no. for your machine, just posted a pic so you have an idea of what I suspect it is.
Well that confirms she’s a D333...given the year/age likely a small bore, right? Here’s the beauty in question... ...I’m seeing (reminded) of all the cleaning “opportunities” I have ahead of me!?! soooo much crap in the belly pans...
All the D333s 4.5 bore. Bob
Glum I think you might be onto something...I’ll need to try to find more of the bearing in the oil...probably best I pull other trans/bevel filter too. no “access” panel I can look/scope, to verify destruction, right??
JohnC- the strainer looked remarkably good; I was about to do a snoopy dance but decided I should wait until I get to the parts washer...then I saw the fuzz on magnets, thought, yeah that’s a bunch, but probably been ten+ years since this has been out/cleaned... THEN I saw the chunks deep inside the magnet holder. They were very stubborn in coming off the holder. Again, so little time/experience with the machine, and knowing it’s age ...I’m POSITIVE sticky fingers have been deep in this oldie...knowing it drove in all gears forward/reverse I’m still hoping it’s from past rebuild job... going back to the machine to keep digging/exploring. thanks for help guys!
The engine in the picture is a D333B with the 4"1/2 Bore so it dates to no younger than around late 1968 early 1969 I feel, the later D333C had a 4"3/4 Bore and a pressed tin rocker cover, the bearing parts I cannot place although I have done these transmissions , a look in a parts book or service book would help your hunt but its going to involve transmission out, the unbolting of the battery box's and seat area is some pain due to cable clamps etc, the steering and brakes are dry with large size units, it might be worth checking under the engine as the saddle for the E - Bar can crack and damage the engine cylinder block, D 5's are hard work but liked by the Farmers, the D6 C-D is a lot more reliable. tctractors
Also let us know what goodies you find in the crap in the belly pans, might finally find Jimmy Hoffa!
Thank you Tctractor. I will definitely check the E-bar/engine block... man....now I really want the belly pans off!! Or do I??? At the moment ignorance is bliss. Ohhh, think of all the wrenches/tools/Hoffa’s(!) I’ll find in that muck... what’s the WHOA/GO on me starting/moving this up on some rough cut 2x10 planks?? Maybe Double-stacked, might gain 4-6” below...wish I had a couple railroad ties Use the theory it ran/moved before, likely its “fine” (tough to say that with straight face)!! Or just run the engine (and don’t put it in gear?) then block under the drawbar and use blade to get some clearance?? Now paying attention to how the drawbar dips down in the back...am I better off blocking up the blade too?? then slide the pans out the front?? scored a barrel today so drain pan(s) will be made and on the ready...
The belly pans if the bolts are not seized should come off easily. With my D6D, I have got to the stage I can pull them off and clean them within half an hour. On this forum the idea was mentioned that if you put a strong strap connected to the track on one side, then under the guard you want to lift them back over the top of the track on the other side, then connect to a remote controlled winch or something (I use a remote controlled crane on my car), then with you underneath to balance the guard you can lift the guard up.
If i’m going to be under it, i don’t trust straps. I use chains or appropriate sized cable(definitely no clothesline lol)
.RC. great pics, and I see the hook-point/strategy; and 56wrench I have a steel cable come-a-long I’ll use on the front pan...which as it sits shouldn’t be terrible to get to (and I hope loose/off). It’s the second pan further back (under bevel gear) that has the two bolts at the rear that look like a real bitch to access... Rain is on the way, hopefully I’ll (atleast) get front off...
Block the blade up ,place the blocks under the push arms takes less blocks. Put your cable under the pan and tighten it up. Remove bolts from back to front. lower pan and back tractor off of it. Some of the rear pans were hinged at the back side. These pans are easier to take off with a floor jack on a piece of plywood . To jack the tractor up put at least 8 inch blocks behind the tracks and back the tractor up till the blocks are a little in front of the sprockets . Pick tractor up with blade and put blocks under front idlers a little bit toward the back. raise blade and block under push arms. Now you can remove back pan. Good luck Bob
No tools or bodies in the pan below the engine...the cable come-along stretched under the pan, hooking from track to track is DEFINITELY the way to go...that bitch fought me the whole time(!)...I swear I heard a suction sound, it was puckered up around the oil pan. And if anyone is missing their leach field, I think I found part of it today; just muck! smelled it too. Once on the ground, I dug out 5 buckets of crap, then moved it off to the side. I’ve reached up and got about 1/2 a bucket of crap out of the nose cone (belly pan) section- but ultimately the rain ran me off...it’ll have to wait until next round... defitely need more space to reach the rear pan; and today I saw back there- first, I’m missing the small access door in the rear skid plate; it’s no wonder it’s packed with stuff- my hull has a hole!!. Second a branch is wedged in between the rear skid pan, frame and a tranny line (suction?), and better, a damn good leak is happening there...glad I haven’t started it yet... does get me thinking- when I pulled that screen/magnet-holder out, there was ZERO oil in that area...I was so focused on seeing what was on screen I didn’t dwell on it...isn’t that magnetic screen BEFORE the pump...I think I need to reopen that up and add oil, see what happens (I mean, how fast it leaks!) Oh, I did look about the E-bar and didn’t see much; between the crap, minimal space and awful lighting, nothing jumped out at me...but it’s still early. Miller time; thanks for help guys!
You can't pour oil in the screen fast enough to fill it up, the pump should pick up oil. If your pump has a 9/16 plug towards the top remove it and crank motor till you get oil. Tighten mounting bolt on generator before it falls off. Bob
I dug out some old parts to give you a better idea of what you are looking at. The parts diagram will be difficult to follow if you haven't seen the inside of these transmissons. These are on a D4 trans but the design will be similar. Unfortunately the only way to find out if it is new or remnants from a rebuild is trans out and tear down. Wouldn't think that a decent mechanic would have missed those remnants though. And once you are in that deep it may as well be a proper rebuild including all bearings, seals, replacing worn clutch packs etc. Not something you'll want to do again any time soon.
Bluox great info and hear you loud n clear regarding genny bolt (I wondered if anyone was gonna see that!!) Thank you Glum...motivated me to break open the books that came with the machine to do a deeper look...I had to jump around in the various “tabs” (sections), but I now see the oil flow and planetary config. Once I realized majority of the oil would be in the bevel gear housing...I had to see what chunks I could retrieve. Since my drawbar dips down, I had to cut the 55 gallon drum only 10.5” tall...either way, about 12 gallons of oil came out; surprisingly it looks/smells (very) good and amazingly no bearing bits or metal (even on the drain plug!). I used a flexible magnet to reach up in the bevel gear area (especially near where the pickup is) and not one metal piece. I still need to get rear belly pan off to drain converter, and at this point probably gonna pull the transmission filter to see if any chunks/bits show up there. Might just get a Napa filter to replace the old, but likely gonna look at it first to see. To say I was shocked (to find no metal in the oil) is an understatement...but I know there’s still places it can “hide” Likely going to get some tractor supply oil (not sure if I’ll get sae30 or “regular” 15w40) to run for a little while, then if nothing shows up in magnetic filter, I’ll dump/refill with TDTO. Did get into the steering clutch compartments and see some “situations” there; but nothing that can’t be cleaned/adjusted. Never “good” when I went to remove the right-side plug, only to find it was packed/caked mud (friggen even looked like a plug!?!)...with some persistence I got majority of it out...but had me saying “come on man!!” Still much to inspect/clean/repair but want to say thanks again for the help and pics!!
couple more pics- can see on the rear belly pan, I’m missing the access door in the middle. found a branch wedged up against the rubber union on the pickup line (going to magnet screen); think it broke the clamp on the right (it is leaking)...but need better access to redo it. Close up of bevel drain plug and shot of drain pan (still can’t believe I didn’t spill any!?!)
Enjoyable reading D5 Dan. Thanks for posting
Good chance of finding a 9/16 spanner in that belly pan
Just want to provide quick update to those who are helping/watching (this $$it show)- She made some (very short!) tracks. Machine fired right up and runs decent (I “hear” an odd sound at low rpms...can’t tell if sticky injector, hanging exhaust valve, or exhaust gasket...) Anyway, after finding no metal in trans fluid or filter, I refilled it with Tractor Supply fluid which says it’s a 10w-30 Cat TO-2 (and left the Cat trans filter in for now), all gears appear to work (shifting mechanism needs much more TLC). I’ll run this oil/filter for a few hours and keep eye on magnet filter...which by the way...I realize the previous owner had the wavy-washer UNDER the filter, so I opened it up (again!) and corrected the situation (plus goes back together MUCH easier!) Doubt I’m outta the woods on the trans, but time will tell. What now is taking top priority is the dirty steering clutch compartments...it had some moments where it was acting like it would clutch/steer...but it’s definitely not right. I started new thread to try to keep the points/questions focused. The other advantage was I got the machine up on some 2x10’s and propped the blade up to make belly pan work more “fun”. Radiator grill is coming off next so I can clean the crap outta the nose cone area and rad-fins Thanks again to those who chimed in on this, I appreciate the direction/thoughts/“visuals”... you know, like the “swinging prostitutes”!?! LOL
Both the fuzz and the bearing parts together show there is a problem . Putting new oil in the transmission is not going to fix it . Its cheaper to pull the transmission and repair it before it fails completely .
I don't want to sound to contrary but the fuzz like that was in every dozer of that era that I ever worked on. The bearing parts might be some failure twenty five years ago. If it was in some steady state operation doing 80 hours a month and the history was tracked and known, then I might suggest a tear down. As it is, I would run it for a bit, check pressures when warmed up and then check for vibrations and sounds. Even if there is something gone south, what will it hurt to run on that old of a machine. Normally the trannys just lock up and the machine stops moving. The damage inside is already done.
That leaves Dan relying on a slack service man not having removed the bearing parts after a transmission repair , which I doubt .
I agree with both of you!! Remember, I went playing in the oil to find the rest of the bearing, and FULLY(!) expected to find something (and didn’t! Not even on the magnetic drain plug or sticking a flex magnet up in bevel housing). Granted, I did NOT do an oil analysis...but I was going to pour that oil back in (after “filtering” thru some cheese cloth)! Instead, my oil “splurge” is to sweeten my Karma points (the what if it’s old work not cleaned up). I need to test the trans pressures, temps, recheck magnets, possibly do an oil analysis...then with new data points (or a trans lock up!?!), either complete the overhaul, or if no more metal shows up, then drop fluid/filter and continue to monitor. I also forgot to mention I did R&R the broken clamp on the rubber union located on the main suction line from bevel housing to the magnetic filter housing...of course that raises a new question for me - was that union sucking air and oil supply suffered- hence bearing bits in the magnets??? Regardless, the union has been cleaned and clamps have been replaced with “regular” worm clamps…which if you look at the photo closely, the branch (hard to see) managed to wedged in between the frame/line/union and along the way (partially) broke the right-hand clamp. I haven’t looked to see what the “real” Cat clamps should look like, but given my unknowns at the moment, those are on the future to-do list.
I would double up on the cheap gear clamps until you can replace them with T-bolt clamps
Pretty much agree, I think I would do any checks you have in mind and run it a bit and pull the scree/magnets again and see what they look like. Hate to accuse someone I don't know about being sloppy and not making sure all debris were cleaned out after a repair. But who knows what they were being told to do by the man writing the checks? Truth be know there have been a few things I have done under orders from bosses in the past! Still feel a bit bad about a 988B that went to auction with the snapped off rear axle pinion shaft and rear drive line in tool box on left rear tool box! Iron Planet inspector did the inspection and did not notice it so I guess it's on him!
Re the earlier advice about using a floor jack on a piece of plywood to remove belly pans - I went one further, and made up an adaptor plate to fit to the floor jack, which holds the pan more securely than the standard floor jack head. Most floor jack heads are easily popped off. I sourced a chunk of scrap 1/4" plate about 14-15" square, welded a short piece of pipe for a prong on the bottom, that fits the hole where the jack head goes. Most pans have several bolt-size holes in the bottom that you can use to locate/secure the plate. If there's none handy, just gas-axe or drill some small holes in a squarish pattern, to match the size of the adaptor plate. Weld 4 short small pieces of pipe to the top of the adaptor plate. Remove floor jack head, install the adaptor plate in its place, line up the top prongs on the adaptor plate with the holes in the pan, insert them into position, jack up until the weight is taken up, unscrew the pan retaining bolts. Lower the jack, and the pan comes down, securely attached to the jack - no more risk of the pan falling off the jack head. You can then wheel the pan out from under the tractor easily, with the pan securely attached to the jack - and you can replace and re-position it, in the same manner.
I like the idea of the pan hooking onto the jack. I was able to put a piece of plywood down, then use my ATV jack to catch/lower the nose piece…but it was wobbly. AMAZING how much these machines tolerate crap stuffed up in these pans…my fan belts HAD to be spinning thru that crap… 2 belly pans down- the one under the trans/bevel won’t give up the two rear bolts- believe I will be introducing them to the gas axe.
Amazing how those radiators get plugged up with junk. My 2015 was pretty caked, until I cleaned it.
That's ignorance on the operator, not doing regular checks. We had a Deere 4440 that one guy ran daily on the farm. Get a call one day that he's stranded in a field, engine overheating. Get down there and find he had not been checking radiator or screens and front hydraulic pump had a seeping fitting. Radiator was plugged right up tight, engine locked up. Engine temp gauge worked, he never looked at that either. @D5Dan nice work on the tractor so far. I don't have much to add, but I appreciate the work you're putting in to sort out your machine.
Well well well… Only have a handful of hours on the machine since screen/magnets cleaned, so not out of woods yet (nor do I have pressure tests or temps, yet)…but pulling the trans screen and magnets again showed no metal fuzz or chunks… Definitely a good sign/start, but certainly still has me concerned…especially with the outrageous(!) amount of CRAP that was in both steering clutch compartments (separate thread)…that amount of dirt/debris would certainly be a “cause” for a clutch bearing failure…but what did the previous owner expect by running the machine with the compartment plugs removed (such a forehead slapping moment!!) Atleast I installed a new O-ring on the magnet/screen cover since I know I’ll be back there inspecting soon!!?! Hoping in the next couple weeks I can get blade lift rams reinstalled (and no more leaks!) then it will be time to stump edge of field and see how she does Also a big thanks for HEF members and their willingness to share knowledge/experience…starting to think I like working on this old iron more then working with it . Definitely learning a TON as I go- thanks guys!!
Dan, going back to your Post #34 on Page 2 a comment regarding the transmission oil. The label states "recommended for", NOWHERE does it say "meets or exceeds XXX specification". There IS a difference.......
Nige, I agree 1000% there are good, better, best oils; and after further reading I’m not feeling good about what I have in the trans (long-term)… Good week last week; blade lift rams are back from hydraulic shop with new packings/seals; then Friday I made a trip to our local Cat dealership to pickup parts/orings/filters/etc- the guys there have been a big help. …when I asked them about the trans oil to use, they both looked at each other and said “the ole man will know what he needs to run, but he’s off on Fridays”…one guy thought maybe TDTO30, the other said no, should run a DEO straight 30 weight oil (non detergent so not to pit the bronze bushings), I asked if that would be considered a TO-4 oil?? In the end, we agreed we should wait for the “ole man” next week to tell us… If my machine we’re a direct drive I would think TO-4; but b/ it’s a Powershift I believe I should be looking more towards the TDTO30 oil?? …or like previous owner (aka the “flipper”) told me, just run Rotella 15w40 in everything!!
TDTO is Cat’s own-brand powertrain oil. TO-4 is the specification any commercial oil has to meet to be an equivalent to TDTO. So they are the same specification, only the brand name on the label would differ. For me a powershift would use an SAE30 TDTO/TO-4 oil. Alternatives to Cat oil would be Mobiltrans HD30 or Conoco Powerdrive 30. There will also be an oil from the Shell Spirax range but I’m not sure exactly what the designation is - have to check.
Shell Spirax S4 CX30 is the one.
A dealer mechanic’s nightmare to see roll in.
Greetings Dan, how's your D5 going? Revisited your thread here and just interested how you'd got on.
I second John Shipp, I too was wondering how the piece is doing, You did a great job getting it ready to work so do let us know, and good luck.
Happy 2023 HEF - hard to believe we're about to roll into 2024!! Also want to Thank all of you for putting up the various info/pics you have, I much rather read about these "issues" than the news! I know I've learned a ton...in fact- here is where my transmission distraction occurred... So, you guys saw I pull the screen/magnets and didn't find fuzz or chunks; definitely a positive sign, but the "TO-2" oil I used just wasn't sitting well with me...so after searching the various names/suppliers listed above (for TO-4 30) I found Lucas TDTO-30 oil delivered for $89/5gal (and free shipping from Summit Racing)...I also got a new filter and o-ring...then the "lessons that others where going thru" kicked in- and yes, the oil/filters are still on bench waiting to go in!?! Must have been late June/early July I kept reading guys having stalling issues/running funny complaints - most starting points were "have you looked in bottom of fuel tank"? AND "have you opened the low-point drain"...It occurred to me - I had done neither. Should add this was around the time I was refitting the rebuilt rams back on the machine (separate thread with its own side-projects) AND trying to dodge the rain drops all the while trying to make bales of hay (which we were 39% off production this year b/o bad weather, but good part it gave me time to figured out how to adjust/fix a square baler - what a REMARKABLE feat of engineering still in use today). but I digress... Now I should add, I've been happy with how the machine runs, with the exception of how the machine first starts - just cranks too long (~30-40 seconds)...but going off the previous owners info "don't worry about fuel filters, I've been thru those"...being a "trust but verify" guy I thought I should look at the bottom of tank AND I should open the low point...certainly has to occur at some point. SOOOOO...off comes the tank cap, remove the clip that holds screen (which I can't believe is still with the machine)...shine flash light (torch for you Aussies!) into bottom of tank - SHOCK - it's PERFECT!! No sign of any crap!! ...then I realize, great I'm gonna open that low-drain and that b*****d will never seal back up (realist not a pessimist! so I have 30 gallon drum ready)...crack the screw open...bit of a pause, then she drains great and surprisingly seals back up...a real 20-minute job!! Then it hits me, I better check those fuel filters up front - that's when the $-hit hit the fan...the first stage screen was 2/3-3/4 FULL of rust/crap- absolutely sicking feeling...then pulled the plug for the secondary filter housing - WATER...DAMNIT(!) why did I not start with the filters a YEAR+ ago...then I removed the filter it was just CAKED with crap (I'm still pissed at myself- everyone knows (or should!) always start with the fuel filters)...anyway... That then highlighted my fuel primer plunger was weak/junk and the old pressure gauge on the secondary housing was filled with condensation - after ordering/replacing those parts finally got her back to running state (still not perfect, thinking my transfer pump is likely weak??). Also took the time to remove the faded plastic cover from the hour meter and polished that, now the non-functioning hour meter is visible!?! May roll that rebuild into the transfer pump project (time will tell). So I definitely feel like I took 3 steps forward and two back, but on the other hand I now KNOW I have a (remarkably) clean tank/drain along with reseting the filters so at least I can keep track as I go. Just so thankful I got the rams off/resealed...they were making a ridiculous mess and needing constant oil added...as with all my the tasks on this dozer leads to many more - playing the game "while I'm here"!?! I will say - I am SOOOO impressed with Cat and my ability to get parts for this machine, I feel very fortunate...I'm sure the day will come I hit the Oh crap situation, but at this point so far so good. I do wish my machine was indoors (for many reason) and that I was closer to the machine to keep chipping away at the repairs, but right now I'm getting prepared for undercarriage removal/rebuild and down the road, radiator removal/cleaning along with water pump check, belts/pulleys...but I need to prove a couple more things work before I go that deep, and with the way time is passing by me...it might be the next guys issues!! Sorry to be long winded, but when I stop loving to hate my iPhone (or is it- I hate loving my iPhone!?!?) and can get on a laptop/keyboard, I can add pages vs sentences!! Couple notes: - Did change both air filters too - thinking the 1978 date "might" indicate they've been in use a while! - Fuel primer ...the fine threads on the body of the plunger are NOT the same from the original to new...don't have real data, but if you look at pics, new one only has 2 set-nuts vs 3 on the old - John Deere square bale pic is just for "show"
Couple more pics