I have been fighting low performance since I got my engine back together and running. Before I took it apart to freshen the engine it ran great and had great power. I took it down because it was just worn out. The rings were gone and mains were into the copper. When I got it fired at first everything seemed fine. But as I was pulling it onto the tracks I just installed I noticed it was down on power. I broke it in and didn’t have any issues there. I rebored the block installed new pistons, did a valve job, and repaired anything else needed. My first thought was I snuffed the injector pump timing up somehow, so I removed the pump and rechecked the timing. All good there. Next I said well I must have screwed up the cam timing but I payed close attention to that when I was assembling the engine. I rechecked it and all good. The I thought that shaft in the injector pump (the rack) somehow came loose because when I had it off the rack would just slide in and out. Off when the pump again, I thought I’ve really got this licked this time but no dice. The rack can’t come loose. I noticed when I reinstalled the pump and was priming the injectors it would try to hydraulic lock the engine so I replaced the injectors. I checked fuel pressure from the transfer pump, 50 psi at low idle about 47 at high idle. I didn’t check the fuel pressure under a load but it doesn’t feel like that’s my problem. If I load it pushing a load if I let it bog all of the way down right as it gets about as low of rpm’s as it could get I can feel the governor kick out and it revs a small amount but nothing like it should. I’ve read all of the posts on the 3204 injector pump thread but found nothing to do with my issue. Unfortunately I don’t have a service manual on adjusting the governor and the rack settings. Ideas ???
The 2 important items I noticed are. This is what you said in your above post. 1 . Before I took it apart to freshen the engine it ran great and had great power. 2 I noticed when I reinstalled the pump and was priming the injectors it would try to hydraulic lock the engine so I replaced the injectors. I personally doubt it was hydraulic locking it, more like advanced timing. Its one of those things were a person needs to be there in person to know, screens and keyboards don't work. The injectors worked in item number 1.
Obtaining the service manuals or timing information is a must. An actual serial number of the unit is a must. There were lots of changes in governors in that series, particularly the change to a servo type governor which requires engine oil pressure to function. I'm wondering if you may have a blocked oil passage to the governor?
I just found a reference to the oil pressure. I had incorrectly guessed the governor was manual. Tomorrow I’ll be checking oil pressure at the pump. I see there’s an oil pressure valve at the front of the governor. That’s exactly how the engine runs, as if it doesn’t get enough fuel. I shouldn’t need to worry about the rack setting as I didn’t remove it or change anything about it. I do have a different set up on the oil pressure. I will be getting the service manual. There’s a tool for setting the timing. I borrowed one from a neighbor. I made a drawing of it and made my own for future use.
N/A engines... Well, i´m new to caterpillar engines and pumps... despite i´ve been tunning diesels all my adult life, all were equipped with bosch systems... i even have acess to a diesel shop of my very good friend and neighbour. From what i can tell an injector pump is a measuring device, and as my knowledge goes this devices are the heart of the diesel engine... governors not so important as they can be tuned to various natures of the job u need the engine to do, nevertheless the pump and governor need to be in balance with each other. From what i can tell 3204´s were built both DI and IDI, and the install procedure is not the same despite the same IP is capable to run both. Is just a matter of the timming position. Hydraulic governors, are quite unique as they require tune on spot, divergencies in oil press may lead to premature fuel cut resulting in low power, but that can be seen by the exaust .... so as timming by engine noise and aceleration/ idle caracteristics. i´d sugest to check timming well before messing up with the governor, as one of governor functions is to limit max output, it looks like in your case this might be the parameter that was afected by the refurbishment u did , as it certainly afected oil press. Usually bosch systems, compare TDC with Start Of Injection... @ cylinder 1. CAT say lock flywhell and pump... a system like this is prone to timming failures... o lot of them. For the record, i have a 3304 in a dozer wich is not pulling as it should... but it will , ofcourse having manufacturer specs would help...
I think I’ve got a way to look at the rack while it’s running to verify where it’s at. Having built motors my entire adult life adding timing would be way up my list. But I want it running correctly before I start changing things. I changed blocks during my freshening of the engine. The oil cooler mount is different. That was what Cat refers to as a mount under the cooler. It’s a better support and also has a bypass in case the cooler clogs up. I was a little concerned that might be an issue with the oil pressure and the governor. But I’m fairly certain that’s not my issue. For reference it has 75 psi above idle at operating temp at low idle it has 60 psi. If the rack shows to be working as designed I will add more timing. Being as old as it is and the engine was rebuilt about 10 years ago someone may have already bumped the timing. I didn’t get to check much on it toda. We used it all day.
Not getting anywhere with information, how about a picture of the injection pump, its support and the governor. Still waiting on a s/n!!!!!
I can chime in here and tell you that the OP doesn't have one, or at least can't find it....... See this thread. The best I managed to do was determine that it was somewhere between 24Y1500 and 1700. Help serial number I’m ordering new tracks and they want my serial number. The rivets on the plate have long ago rusted away. The engine number is 45V38076 the arraignment is 1W0162. It is a 39 link chain. I’ve bought a bunch of parts for it without the serial # but they say they need it. I’ve been converting a PC... HeavyEquipmentForums
So far the best I can come up with for the sn is 24y1750. I’ve looked but haven’t located the stamp on the bevel case. I can post a pic of the pump and governor from the parts manual or I can take a pic of it tomorrow. Nige beat me to it. He is the one that got this close based on the info I supplied to him. This might seem like an ignorant question to y’all but what does gray smoke mean? At first there was quite a bit of gray smoke. Not during break in but as I was actually using it. I thought I had screwed the engine up somehow and along with the low power I really considered taking it back out. But I ran it pretty hard yesterday and today. No smoke and better on power but still not right. The smoke make me think it needs more timing. But I’m also wondering if the rack is going to full fuel. Below is the support. I used number 28 instead of the support. Oil pressure is supplied via #15 tube.
How does that work, one support is a three bolt mount, the other is a two bolt?
The blocks are different that’s why I had to use it without the support. I used my original pump and governor. I believe Cat did this to have a better support for the pump and governor and to add the cooler bypass.
From where i came from, white or grey smoke is associated with low combustion temperatures, blue with contaminants , and black with rich mixture(too much fuel). Being your engine rebuilt, one should not expect the white/grey smoke to be associated with low compression, therefore the other reason being delayed ignition/injection, too close to TDC. Once u mention the Grey Smoke, i´m 95% conviced it needs a bit of advance... how much would u say? untill when u THR it up and u can see a black mist coming out the exaust when u floor it. While one does that, paying atention to engine vibes and noise will help to find the right spot. Other thing u can do, is since it is a N/A engine, u can increase the fueling until u see a small black haze from exaust, when engine is under power, full load. Or u just increse fuel till u feel the right power, before having the black haze. The improvement after working is probably associated with beaking down, parts are getting toguether. often improves performance.
I’m going to try 5*. I’ve looked for info on how much is safe but I found nothing. It does have a very slight black smoke loaded. I was thinking that might be due to late timing. That could be normal or it could have been turned up in the past. I wouldn’t know how to adjust the fuel amount.
We have got all the ingredients needed for an epic thread here . . .
What he said^^^^^^^^^^
I bumped the timing about 5*, it liked it but still seemed to want more. I added a little more. It runs great and has the power it had before. I did use tool 5p0143 to set the timing and I see I probably have the injector pump that uses pin timing. I havent investigated to see the differences between the 2. I now know way more than I wanted to about the injector pump and governor because I was sure that’s where my problem was. Thanks Mquinista and Old Magnet for your input.
Hy, i´m glad it worked out for u. My recomendation is also to check fuel load, i mean injection quantity under load...and tune it as best u can for a better performance. IF your motor is Turbocharged u can measure intake pressure under load and tune max fuel setting...increase or reducing according to the results. Very often these systems are or become underfueled. (the only way to ascertain if fuel is correct was bench testing IP, but eventhough many OEM have procedures to fine tune its engines within certain limits) If is a N/A engine its litle more tricky, but its done by watching black smoke under load... one can add load fuel untill black smoke is comming out, or decrease fuel load at will, of course this shall be done with care not to increase FW power too much beon rated HP. Usually i mess a lot with diesel tunning and Injector Pumps, and one can´t belive the number of engines outhere running outtimmed, expecially IDI´s , there are even engines that fire 180º apart.... Its a pitty CAT hides a lot of info about their injection systems... we get there eventually but it takes much more brainstorming.
The smoking I had is gone now. Adding fuel will increase the rpm’s won’t it? I wouldn’t mind just a small amount more power but I don’t want to increase the rpm’s. I know to watch the rpm’s but others using it don’t and I don’t need issues there.
He he, RPM increase won’t give u power… it’s load fuel that does it. This is usually done done by increasing load fuel flow. RPM is called high idle, it should be a preset value for your engine/equipment, this is the value the governor starts to cut fuel to avoid over rev, usually when out of load. I suggest try to find someone to explain where the fueling screw is in your governor and follow the advice. Some governors have 2 screws, some just got one but it messes up with high and low idle , some are just easy. I’m not familiar with CAT systems, I just know they can be tuned. If it was a Bosch system i would help u right away.
Torque control fueling is controlled by the rack stop shim spacing between the bar stop and the torque spring.
To increase torque control fueling I would increase the distance between the thin spring and the bar stop, correct? Would adding more fuel by adjusting the stop for the rack at the torque spring cause an increase in rpm’? It’s much better than when I started. I did not adjust anything fuel related. The only thing I’ve changed is the timing as I didn’t check where it was before I tore it down.
The other way round decreasing the shim thickness allows the rack to travel further before hitting the stop. This does not affect the normal running rpm. Just allows more fuel (black smoke) when engine is under maximum load. Looking over the torque control in the parts book there may not be much option for change as the standard shims are already pretty thin at about .020" thick depending on which arrangement you have.
I understand that. I was thinking if I already have the thin spring if I increase the distance between the spring and stop by moving shims around it would give the rack more travel.
Always good to remember...more fuel means more heat, also more fuel requires more air which only helps with the heat to a point...ask me how I know.
Stupid question ... (but considering my experience with Injection Pumps and Governors... something here is lifting my eyebrow) This Governor does not have a screw or screws where one can modify Total(MAX) fuel output? without messing with Torque Control System? Like one would do in a Cummins with a inline pump? Im asking cause, in my dozer i have a diff type of governor, (nothing alike the pics above) its automotive type without altitude compensation or as CAT call it "air/fuel compensation". all information i gathered points towards screws on the bottom.
this is mine, i would guess the screws marked 13 would have a say on fuel output... what do u guys say?
You are correct, governors on engines 45V40210-up have those screw adjustments however I believe we are dealing with an earlier version governor that does not have these features.
Well, how do you know?
Some burned pistons.....twice.
I took a little more timing out today. I added 1/2 turn to the fuel screw. I don’t know if it’s cutting the timing or adding fuel but I have some smoke now and a pretty good shot of smoke as you increase the rpm’s. Just as you increase not a steady increase in smoke. 1/2 turn is .025”. I guess the rack is fairly sensitive to adjustment. My service manual says look at the microfiche for fuel adjustments so I don’t know how much you should go.
I guess we're looking at a new scroll pump here? Whether or not the pump has a torque spring depends on the engine application. In this case the lower screw (13) is the FLS (full load setting). The upper one is the FTS (full torque setting). You can mess with the FLS screw relatively safely - you will just make smoke. Tamper with the FTS screw at your own risk.
The scroll pump belongs to MQuinista. Mine is a later style early pump. What I adjusted is 7. 1/2 turn out.
Well, looks like u´re on the right path... with IP is like chess, one move at a time, record, observe and try... Engine has to run smooth always, and quiet, smothness and quietness is a measure of perfect ignition. Fuel quantity in an injection system is always determined by bench testing the IP for the rated power of a specific engine, and all systems have a margin, some 50% others 100% impossible to determine, but i can safely say never seen one with fueling capacity under 30% above rated value, even this LUCAS/CAV systems that are everywhere and are not the best... The other mith is too much fuel damages the engine, yes and no... No cause what i mentioned above regarding the fuel abilities of the sistem, yes if this increase in amount is beeing delivered out of time... How much is too much, and how much u can add? it is dependent on your engine type, IDI Turbo DI turbo or N/A... a naturally aspirated engine does not offer much room to tune, as it easily starts to smoke, but on the other hand there aren´t much damage one can do , unless it is heating up when loaded. Turbo engines are another beast, as the same engine with same turbo and outfit can be increased by 100% power just by adding fuel... expecially if a free float turbo is installed...thats why monitoring boost is a must... but even the turbo engines start to smoke when feed to much fuel, and this ones can melt... cause if the boost fails the overheat goes crazy. often measuring Exaust temp allow to determine the best fueling... Exercise care when adding fuel, and tune this parameters as much one can to get the best performance out of the engine...
Still fighting my performance issues. To recap 1. it didn’t have this problem before I rebuilt the engine. 2. when i first cranked it after the rebuild and break in I noticed it would only rev as far as half throttle, you could push the governor control further but it didn’t increase performance of rpm’s. 3. it liked the increased timing but I didn’t want to burn pistons so i backed it down. 4. I measured the pressure at the transfer pump, 47 psi at high idle. 5. I noticed when I primed the engine after a timing change the engine would try to hydro lock so I changed the injectors. 6. I added 1/2 turn to the torque control screw. I’ve gotten back to the original performance it runs great for an hour. After an hour it starts losing power. 7. I opened the fuel line from the tank to the transfer pump and blew air through. I didn’t see anything restricting the fuel. I did remove the 90* fitting at the tank and checked for blockage. As I said it runs great for an hour and then starts losing power. Temperature , oil pressure, everything is good. Can the injector pump plungers cause issues like this. I can run it until it bogs all of the way down and when it gets a low as it’s going to go I feel the governor kick out and it try’s to pull better but by that time it’s too low on power. I’ve tried searching but there’s not a lot of caterpillar info on the web. What say y’all?
Does the fuel pressure change when it loses power after 1 hour.? If you haven't checked that it's the first thing I would suggest.
Have you opened the drain valve on the tank to see if there is any water/sediment lurking there.? It's supposed to be a regular PM task.
Are you sure the fuel tank cap is venting? Run without the cap and see if there is a difference.
I haven’t checked the fuel pressure when it loses power. Yes I know I should have already done that before posting. I will. I don’t have the original fuel cap. Some dummy (me) lost it. I don have it covered and there is no pressure or vacuum. As I mentioned I removed the 90* fitting from the tank to check for debris. It’s all good no debris or water. Fuel is clean.
I find it amazing that you are prepared to mess with the fuel settings of a FIP yet you seem unwilling to do at least a basic check to make sure the bottom of the tank is clean. IMHO unless you open the drain valve at the bottom of the tank and the fuel runs clear with no trace of water or dirt you haven't established that you have a clean fuel feed to the engine. It's in the O&M Manual as Every 10 Operating Hours or Daily.
Hmmm, I said I took the 90* fuel line fitting out of the bottom of the tank right beside the drain. Nothing but clean fuel came out!
I’m coming into this a little late but maybe you should try changing the fuel filter . You would be able to see on your pressure gauge if you are starving the engine of fuel. On my D-6 it loses rpm quickly and shows low pressure on the gauge if filter is starting to plug. Just a thought!
It only has about 10 hrs on it. I have considered changing it. But I have good pressure at the filter.
I finally found the serial number. Someone had bondoed over it and painted, 24Y01548. I was thinking about the possibility of a restriction in the elbows where the fuel lines go into the head. Item 6 below. I cleaned these out with carb cleaner and compressed air when I did the engine. I thought they had like a deffuser inside. But I read where theres actually a screen there. Has anyone ever seen an issue where these restricted fuel flow.
Nice to have confirmation that the original estimate of 24Y1500-1700 was in the right ball park.
I’d say right on the money. Does anyone know much about those elbows, post 43. I set up a governor in my lathe to see how it functioned. The weights (arms) in the governor don’t swing out smoothly at 1250 rpm’s they havent moved. As my lathe is spinning up right before 2,000 they pop out. They stay popes out until it gets a good bit lower. My lathe is a standard lathe so I can’t vary the rpm’s as in infinite. I can only guess but I’m thinking they design it this way to have max fuel at that rpm. My question is if the fuel is maxed out how can the governor add fuel as the rpm’s decrease. I’m studying how the oil pressure controlled valve in the governor works. My governor has this bolt for setting timing. Is this another way to set timing or does this still use the 5p0143
did you get to the bottom of your issue?
I think anytime there's a screen in the fuel system/lines it's there for a reason... to catch any crap that gets through. Can't always get super clean diesel in all locations. Could plug up with algae or other stuff from sitting for awhile too. I had a screen hiding in the hex fitting going into the lift pump on the 3204 in a 931B that drove me nuts until I figured out where it was.