3 big 36"dia land clearing balls to use with our anchor chain. can anyone tell me who sells them or where i can get them second hand. cheers guys.
what are you looking for? what line of work are you in, and what do you need them for.
3 foot round steel balls to be lashed together with anchor chain to be used in landclearing operations. The balls keep the chain off the ground so they dont become as entangled in rocks and roots etc.... Thats my wild guess anyways
Deas has probably got some better pics
i am fascinated by the old methods of clearing with the dozers and chains...anyone with any pics or info or links please post them up!
Balls for clearing Hi, Folks, As requested by Squizzy: As you can see from the 3rd and 4th photos, using 2 machines to pull a chain or cable for clearing is hardly new - like 1905. Use of the ball was discontinued in the 1950's DownUnder because it was found that too many trees were being snapped off instead of uprooted, leaving many broken stumps behind which then had to be dug out individually.
Balls for clearing: Hi ben46a, Actually, I think the balls had a tendency to hold the chain down.... So the chain didn't just slid up and ride over the tops of trees and brush. If I'm in need of correction here... please do so. Deas, did you know any of those people in the last picture you posted? OCR
Those Balls. Hi, OCR. You are in need of correction here. The purpose of the ball was to help hold the chain up off the ground so that it had more height and thus more leverage to pull down bigger trees. How-wever, as mentioned earlier, it also tended to break more trees off instead of uprooting them and so it was mostly abandoned in the late 1950's, at least here in DownUnder, where we are perhaps a little more progressive. LOL.. And no, I don't know any of the people in that last photo. Contrary to what appears to be a commonly-held belief on this site, I am NOT THAT old. I was still going to school when that photo was taken. How-wevver, I have done something in my life that only a VERY few others here have done - - - - - - survived long enough to get to be as old as I currently am. LOL.
Those Balls. Hi Deas, That's not unusual... I thought that without the weight of the balls... to hold the chain off the ground... but also down ... it might start to ride up over the top of the shorter vegetation... just bending it over... :beatsme Aha, but you could have known them.... They weren't that old . commonly-held belief... :beatsme... ...................... :lmao ... ... Me too.... And now, at least or at last, .... We're too old to die young ... ... With apologies to Moe. OCR
Hold-ups or hold-downs Hi, OCR. Well, for a start, an 8-foot diameter ball is going to hold the chain immediately adjacent to it 4 feet off the ground, which will allow a fair bit of undergrowth to pass under it, just like the chain climbing a tree as it falls but ALL the time. I have never seen a 100% kill on a chaining job, not even in lighter scrub or in eucalypt mallee country where there is little if any undergrowth. How-wevver, the intial burn-off after the chaining usually seemed to kill most of whatever shrubbery had survived the chain and subsequent raking and further burning seemed to leave a pretty clean field. That is not to say that there was no regrowth if the area wasn't worked or that blade plowing would not improve the job but consider this. In lighter going with 2 x D8H's and 600 feet of 2 1/2" chain, we were knocking down anything up to 1,200 acres a day, cutting around 400 feet wide in second gear, in 1967 prices. Even if you have to plow it a couple of times after it was all burned, that would still be pretty cheap clearing for the times. Sometimes in that lighter going, it was even possible to put a crawler tractor and heavy plow straight into it after the first burn, even further reducing costs. Gone are the days. I could not have known those people. The powers that be insisted that I spend my days in school, NOT wandering around some soon-to-be-but-not-yet farm out the back of beyond hob-nobbing with government officials and bureacrats. And my parents insisted that I help them on the farm after school, thus further limiting my opportunities for hob-nobbing. Get the picture?
The picture... I got it, I got it: I thought that looked as though it had ben burnt off... in the first two pictures, Deas. Yes..... OCR
Burnt off??????????????? Hi, OCR. I see you still have a little to learn about Australian 'forests'. (So do I but I have an inkling in this case.) I believe the scientific term for that sort of eucalypt forest is 'dry sclerophyll forest' - don't ask me why 'cos I don't know. It quite often doesn't have a lot of undergrowth in it which, especially in a black-n-white photo, could tend to give it a burnt-off appearance. Howzyer edumackayshun progressing, young feller?
Burnt off... Not: Yup, first two looked burnt... but on rexamination... I see I went wrong... Progressing???... why, it seems to be going the other way... ... .......:falldownlaugh OCR
Young feller????????? Hi, OCR. Quote: "young feller " .......:falldownlaugh You've still got a few to go to catch me - - - by which time I will have moved on, leaving you still with a few to go to catch up. Happy chasing.
Thanks for the info guys but do you know where I get these balls? We have about 20000 ha of bush in northern mozambique to clear.
Hi, Maputowhite. May I ask why you want the balls to go with your chain? If you need them to hold the chain down, then your chain is probably too light. In my experience, it is better to use a heavier chain rather than a light one, especially in scrub, as it does a better job of breaking the branches off and laying the whole lot flatter on the ground, resulting in a better burn. In answer to your query about where to obtain/purchase such items, I honestly have no idea where to look. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the balls we used here in DownUnder were around 8 feet in diameter, more than twice the size that you are seeking and I haven't heard of one in around 45 years. If you can find some old anti-shipping mines, the bigger versions of them might do the job if you weld swivels into them to attach the chain to. Make sure all the go-bang material is well and truly GONE before you start doing any cutting or welding. Otherwise: :beatsme :beatsme :beatsme
the reason is the chain is heravy but the waste is clogging & it requires either an other dozer or an excavator to free it up.i heard of the ball thing from an old timer who did a lot of land prep back in the old colonial days in zim.good idea on the mines but i can't find those either.txs 4 the help mate.
How about using pipe. Hi, Maputowhite. Have you given any thought to maybe using a couple of lengths of 24" to 36" heavywall pipe about 6' long? Weld some bracing inside to stop it crushing and end plates solid enough to take swivels to attach to the chain? The end plates might need to be in the region 1" to 2'' thick to take the punishment and your pipe might need to be 1/2" - 3/4" wall thickness - the bigger the diameter, the thicker the wall will need to be. Just a thought for an alternative.
balls hello maputowhite, i was thining the same as deas ,i googled and came up with no balls for sale or a maker ,looks like they were made when steel and laubour was cheap , it will depend on the bush you are chaining wheather you need the ball ,if you have time ,one dozer goes back and pushes the missed trees, big dozers ,d8-9's with long chain dosnt pull tree ,stop and one goes back and pushes tree ,you will know when one donst come down ,the dozer with most traction will pull the othe backwards for a bit . smaller dozers just burn the bush and a good blade and clean up everything that didnt burn:notworthy bruce oz
How about using pipe: Great Idea!!!! :thumbsup And if more weight were needed... they could be filled with water... :idea Although... I might need some correction here... OCR
i'm sure someone in china'd soon cast you up a few. alternately a local foundry should be able to assuming you supply them with the pattern. there's a yard at either wagga or albury that sells a lot of vintage stuff on ihub, steam based mainly, though they might know where to find some at a guess. if i was looking for one in australia i'd place a wanted ad in The Land and/or the qld equivalent and see what turns up. I suspect they been recycled eons ago however. bit of gumpf bout the process in the working photo here it shows a dozer chasing and presumably about to clear the ball
On needing correction...................................... Hi, OCR. Before making any comment on that statement, I'd like to see some photos of the country that is being cleared and some information about chain size and the tractors being used to pull it. There are a few too many variables in the equation to be making many firm recommendations about it. Maputowhite, is there any chance that you might be able to post some photos of the country and some details of the tractors and chain? The photo piranhas here will love you for it. One thing that always surprised me about chaining, especially in heavier timber, was just how big a tree TWO dozers could pull down between them when one would have been struggling to push that same tree over with just its blade with probably more reach up the tree than the chain would have. In my experience, if the two dozers could not PULL a tree down, it often took a dozer with a tree pusher bar to knock it down, or at least to knock it down quickly. Which is why they often used a chaser dozer WITH a tree pusher bar when working in heavy timber. The idea was not necessarily to flatten the tree but rather to loosen it up to the point where the two pulling tractors could finish it off. It was also not a good idea to totally flatten a tree inside the chain before the chain got to it as it would often get its roots and/or branches tangled in the chain. If one of the pulling dozers saw a tree that might be a problem, the best approach was to soften it up a bit and leave it for the chain to pull right down.
Maputowhite, I'm sure Deas would love to come over and give you some help with your clearing job.....but I've heard he doesn't have the balls for it....... :lmao:falldownlaugh Ok Ok...someone had to do the balls joke:cool2
On not having.................. Hi, Squizzy246B, Since neither my ex-wife nor my last long-term partner seem to have them in a jar on their respective mantelpieces, I don't know who else would have them BUT me. Last time I tried it - some little time ago now - crossing my legs was NOT the most comfortable way for me to sit. I seemed to have a quite distinct feeling of a 'crush zone' in there somewhere. And just what sort of an example is a moderator setting by hi-jacking a thread? LOL.
Txs for all the comments from "having too not having balls" I'll try post some photos - i really appreciate your help even the tonge in cheek replies. The tress are sadly very large african hardwoods & are older than most of our combined ages - 2 to 4m dia.i know it's a sin but it's what's know as progress.i'm not the farmer i'm the oily rag.
If you wanna go home made try this: Take a metal 55 gallon drum (thats around 3" diameter right?) and find a thick metal pipe that your chain will fit through nicely. Place the pipe in the center of the drum and pour concrete around it. That should give you some nice weight and decent strength. You could also made up a rebar "cage" to insert in the drum for added strength as well as weld a bunch of plate etc on the outside of the drum. Once the conrete is set weld on metal "caps" on either end then slide your chain through the pipe. Tadaa! Cheap roller made from scrap. You can also find tow behind sheeps foot compactors such as this: http://www.rbauction.com/equipment_images/2008299/large/2149839_1.jpg If you found a old scrapped or broken (or cheap) one you could just use a single wheel as it would chop up underbrush pretty good and already has bearings you could attach your chains to.
txs guys both good ideas from vantage TeS & Deas Plant.I let you know the result.
One snag that I can see. Hi, Maputowhite. Vantage Tes has come up with a couple of ideas that may well work too. There is one snag that I can see to using pipe or 55 gallon drums or old sheepsfoot roller drums in trees of the size you describe. If a ball hit such a tree pretty much square on, it would tend to slide to one side or the other leaving the great bulk of the load as a more or less direct pull on the chains, shackles and swivels. If a roller hits such a tree - 2m to 4m dia. - anything like square in the middle it may well end up with the chains pulling at quite sharp angles to the centre line of the roller and thus to the shaft through said roller. This may result in bending or breaking unless said shaft is 'Gah-dawful' strong. The narrower the roller, the less likely this would be to happen. You haven't yet mentioned the size of the chain you are using or what tractors you are using to pull it. I would imagine that if you are pulling trees of the size you describe, you would hardly be using a couple of 7J series D4's and I don't think your grandfather's fob watch chain is going to hack the pace either. Also, are you using a 'chaser' dozer?
ok deas, potential alternatives to using a chain with/without a ball? 2-4m is good sized timber and much bigger than most of the typical country i've seen pulled from walgett to charters towers. all in all a nice challenge.
Potential alternatives Hi, Mouse. Possible alternatives? BIG dozers with rakes and GOOD tree psuher bars. If some of those trees are 2 - 4 metres in diameter, unless they are awfully shallow rooted, they are going to be hard to pull down with a chain, especially if there are any largish gaps between them to allow the chain to fall down to the ground again. I have not been able to quickly find any really helpful information about topography and vegetation in Northern Mozambique beyond that it is largely tropical/sub-tropical and mostly coastal lowlands. A look at Google Earth seemed to indicate the presence of a LOT of waterways with possible heavier vegetation bordering them. From what I have seen of trees in photos of other parts of Africa, they seem to tend towards thick short trunks with VERY wide-spreading branches. Such trees are NOT easy to pull down with a chain 'cos the wide-spreading branches tend to snag the chain and stop it sliding up and over the tree and moving on. Whether or not this same scenario applies in the country that Maputowhite is talking about, I have no idea. Such trees are also a PITA with a dozer/rake/treepusher combination 'cos you often have to break some of the branches off to allow access to the main trunk so that you can get a halfway decent purchase for a tree pusher bar. A sort of a parallel here in DownUnder would be a big Moreton Bay Fig tree with its spreading branches and buttressed roots. At least with a Moreton Bay fig, the buttressed roots would help to lift the chain as it approached the tree. I don't know if Maputowhite's tree have buttressed roots. Input! Input!
The dozer idea has it merits. We used to clear areas known locally (aboriginal) as "Wilgie"...so named because man nor dog could hardly walk through this country. When the scrub was cleared away you were left every 30 yards or so with massive Paperbark trees...about 2-3 metres in diameter but the trunk only went up about 10-12 metres. Very very dense timber and well rooted. Our best operator could bring one down about every 15 minutes or so with a D8 fitted with a tree pusher....but he was a very skillful operator and concentrated on ripping the key roots first. You would have had no chance chaining these trees. The trick was to do it at the right time of year. In summer the D8 would have no chance and in winter the D8 would sink to the belly. Springtime, when the ground was just firm enough for the dozer. A modern D9 would probably do well.
haven't you got work to do squizzy how goes it over there?
G,day Mouse....yur assumin that poor old contractors like me will blindly submit to that politically motivated moronic habit of fiddling with mother natures timing an such. Nobody is going to get me adjustin me watch. It may well work for those on the eastern extremes of political time zones but when you are already on the western edge of a zone it plain sucks. Besides which...it was hammerin down with rain this mornin. Busy busy, too much to do here at the moment.
err, fair call, i forgot bout the time difference... i'd have thought rain just makes for better traction if you are working in sand?
I HATE Peace. Fight, you buggers, fight. I HATE peace. LOL.
Its a fair to call to say that WA is a bit outa sync with the rest of the known universe Mouse ...and normally you would be correct about us needing adequate quantities of H2O in order to acheive compaction. However, not all sand is good sand I'm afraid. Are you familiar with the practice of trying to compact a bag full of marbles?. Today, the 4WD tractor delivering our blocks got bogged in our worksite......thats not a good omen if you follow my drift. Please ignore the Bufo Marinus above whats the chances of getting this one back on track?:cool2
Sticks-n-stones Hi, Squizzy246B. "Sticks-n-stones"........................... I'm waiting for the thread originator, Maputowhite, to get back to us with more details of chain size and the tractors he is planning on using and - am I being too optimistic - some photos of the country he will be working in. Jus' havin' sum funn whyl way-tin'. Is that back on track enuff fer yuh?
Bufo Marinus Eeewww .... Nasty, nasty.... poison too. Rather sour facial expression also... :lmao Now... back on track. OCR PS... Seems to be progressing, as I learn more... :lmao
OCR...while we are waiting for this thread to get back on track... The trick is with the Toads, you need to hit them head on...so the wheel closes their mouth....this way the pressure builds up in the Toad and their innards explode out their........ ointhead A lot of people like the old salt and vinegar trick but I prefer a 3 iron or a 5 wood.:drinkup Anyway...better stop picking on ole Deas....the property values just fell dramatically in his area....well since my wife got off the plane in Brisbane this morning anyway. I thought talking about Balls was much more fun. Which begs the question; Was the balls & chain clearing business an Australianism or was it used much in other countries???...
Ball and chain. Hi. Squizzy246B I don't think we-us Aussies had any patents or copyrights on the system/method but I haven't heard an awful lot about it from anywhere else either. One member here did mention using 2 x D8's and a chain for clearing in Belize a while back.
peace? what bloody peace? it aint bogged till you have at least 3 increasingly larger peices of plant bogged, each one carefully positioned to supposedly pull the next one out. white soupy clay's the worst stuff i've experienced, cannot pick it and anything that breaks the surface promptly sits on the chassis awaiting help. digging aint nothing but a total waste of time. i did once bog a horse in quicksand in the burdekin while mustering wannabe wild cattle - it required a landcruiser to get the horse out. best clearing ball i've read about was that one that landed in siberia a century ago... it cleared about 830 sq miles and roughly 80m trees so wiki tells me. mind you thats a baby to the one that landed in the nt a few more years ago. squizzy, deas - where is the oldest geological area in australia? (without resorting to the 'net) interestingly. geologically, the barkley tablelands have never experienced erosion - a fact which makes it almost unique in the world. so, what hijack?? (look and learn time ocr!)
'Oldest' Geological area in Australia Hi, Mouse. I think it's the space between Squizzy's ears. It's lain undisturbed by even the faintest of breezes - or thoughts - for about 24.5 billion years. That's about 20 billion years longer than the next oldest geological area in Australia which I believe is parts of the Kimberley, some of the oldest 'turf' on Earth.
close, deas, close. and hi. but there is an area older according to my book of knowledge. I'm hacking my way through an old library, most of the books are about 50 years old but still good to read. the geology book, title of which i will post within 24 hours, is a most excellent read. another tome i collected recently is asimov's guide to sciences vols. 1 & 2. far easier to read than hawking. how many pins in the cat electrical connector squizzy? and is it a canbus system?
Cause and Effect??? I'd prefer a very long pole... to touch that... :cool2 OCR
You need to find a book called the Geology of Western Australia's National Parks by Peter Lane. The book is very easy to read but has one glaring error. It lists "Mass Extinctions" in the Cretaceous Period of 144-65 Million Years ago. The author doesn't appear to have been aware that Deas survived that period.:cool2 Steven Hawking admitted he was wrong though...... However, "oldest" must be geolistified to "bit of mother earth that has been geologically stable and exposed to the elements for the longest period". Excluding Deas this would be what is known as the Yilgarn Craton and the Pilbara Craton. Geologists believe several "bits" of Alaska and an area around Onslow provide the oldest Radio Carbon decays.....but...what the hell, the whole planet is only 4.6 Billion Years old....you have to remember that Deas is older than dirt itself:notworthy :falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh J.M. Barrie said I'm not young enough to know everything and if this thread doesn't pick up soon I'm gunna be looking for a new job Balls! 5 (older) or 8 (newer)..depends No, not yet, currently only Challengers run a full/true CanBus in the Baby Poo yellow brigade......but I don't follow that stuff these days Did you know that the earth doesn't spin...it more or less "wobbles".....now what would it be that causes the out of balance?? Balls!
Cause and effect???????????????????? Hi, OCR. I'll happily touch that one - with just my bare fingers on the keyboard. If Squizzy246B is silly enough to marry and stay married to anybody who can lower property values so dramatically by simply visiting an area, more fool him. LOL. Personally, I would have thought he would have chosen a little more wisely, based on my assessment of some of his posts here on these forums. Just goes to show, you never can tell. LOL. CHAINS
ok then, so what happens when we hit the next period without magnetic poles? will that be the trigger for the extinction of humans? geoscience australia lists somewhere different (i think) - mt narryer. my shoddy geography suggests to me that is somewhere near meekathara/gascoyne life at the extremes makes for an interesting read too.
Perhaps she is so dazzlingly lovely that the local women all feel inferior, and the local men all want to move to Perth to be closer to her? That would lower property values, woudn't it? :cool2
Land Speculation??? If I were.... and I had money... I think I'd be trailing along with my check book.... :cool2 Buy it up, and clear it with the ball and chain method ... of course. And what didn't need to be cleared... maybe try for an... Extreme Makeover. Home Edition.... OCR
Local Malcontents Hi, OCR. It's good that some of the members here can stay at least partially on topic at least part of the time. I notice that Digger242j did not include any mention of 'chaining' or 'balls for' in his post above. "THREAD HI-JACKER." I am wondering what might have happened to the thread originator that he hasn't gotten back to us with further information about his job or further requests for information. Maybe some of the local malcontents cut his phone lines? 2 metre - 4 metre diameter trunks are fairly big trees to be chaining, especially the 4 metre ones, even with a pair of D11R's or T's and a 4- or 5-inch chain, unless they have roots made from 3-ply sheeting or balsa wood. I'm a little curious to know just what he is planning on using to do the job.
Local Malcontents... Possible!!! Yes Deas, Something does seem to be a bit off here. One meter (metre=British... ) is equal to 3.3 feet...rounded. 4m x 3.3= 13.2 feet in diameter ... or... 41.5 feet in circumference..... That's a good size tree... if my math is right. Also seems like some valuable wood.... :beatsme Especially to just drag down with balls and a chain ..... .... OCR
Maths???????????????????? Hi, OCR. I see the wheels and cogs are slowly grinding between your ears too. There isn't much wrong with your math. From what I can gather from the LIMITED data available from Google searches seem to indicate that the vegetation of Northern Mozambique consists largely of small areas of forest, up to around 20 square km in area, interspersed with larger areas of savannah landscape. You might like to take at this PDF document: http://www.mareja.com/mareja/_images/quirimbanp.pdf It has some photos of the area's vegetation. It does not cover the whole area of Northern Mozambique but I didn't see any trees that looked as if they might be 4 metres in diameter. I await further information from Maputowhite.
Local Malcontents... Possible!!! Of course you did read the bit of a gumph ... posted by mouse. http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=11140#_9 I, too... await further information from Maputowhite. OCR
Ahh, but Deas, perhaps the association is too subtle for you. My post referring the Mrs Squizzy was on-topic. Wives are often referred to as a "ball and chain"....
That took a while Hi, Digger242j. That took a while. A woman such as you describe would not be so likely to be called a 'ball and chain'.
i beg to differ. a wife that is not a bnc would fly under the radar and not lower property prices. one enjoys peace when they can get it... how much anchor chain would you like. if it enters oz waters i can get hold of it... indeed i have a few barrels sitting in my shed as we speak. as for mines. i can point you at at few reputablr suppliers. ah. what would you pay for a 5t excavator with 3k hours right now?
Mines? Reputable suppliers? Hi, Mouse. If you know of people who can supply these mines and you have been following this thread, how come you didn't mention this earlier? Just curious? How many links of, say 3", anchor chain do you get in a barrel? Most of the chain that I've seen come in a barrel is about fit for tying a dog, if you're into that sort of thing. I wouldn't pay anything for a 5T excavator at the moment. How-wevver, if you wanted to send it to me as a gift, I'd feel obliged to accept it graciously. Should I thank you in anticipation and look for it in my letterbox?
to answer q2 first. not many. how many barrels would you like? yes, i do know a couple of mine suppliers but will they deal wth you? especially if my name gets invoked... be careful what you wish for. re 5t. about what i thought. i'm looking for a farm toy for about 200 hours a year at a 5t level but the bigger the better as its mainly just to work ironstone. as i dont need to transport it ever a 100T would do... unfortunately in my game i do need to wave the flag.
To answer you in order. Hi, Mouse. I don't want any chain. I'm not into tying up dogs. They wouldn't be dealing with me. It was Maputowhite who wanted some balls to put into his chain for a job in Mozambique. And I'm not wishing for anything. So I don't need to look for the 5-tonner in my letterbox?
ah - so you do believe in santa claus then... its the same old story - insert dollars and anything is possible. maputo asks the questions of innocents. i'd just be asking how much do i need to pay :notworthy for the record, i do not supply mines but if i deem you basically worthy i can point you at legit-ish people who do. i prefer my life very very simple indeed. can they supply to that area? i do not know and i absolutely don't want to know for the same reason.
Santa Claus and other fairy tales. Hi, Mouse. To the best of my knowledge, Santa Claus, if he does indeed exist, does not deliver to letterboxes. I suspect that Maputowhite, if he is genuine, has asked about availability and who might supply his needs in order to find where he might direct further enquiries regarding prices, etc.. I think I can understand why you might choose to distance yourself from any people who might be involved in the supply of such items as mines. How-wevver, I'm not the one that you would need to consider 'worthy' since I am NOT in the market for any mines, at least not the 'go-bang' type. Happy selling and supplying.
not at all just back from the bush Been out in the bush only sat fone comms. It's 4 x D9R dozers & a 2 x 320c excavators doing the main clearing. They also have a range of Savannah plougs,rakes & blades. I got the balls(apt)from two suppliers 1 in the US & 1 in China idential specs etc & the prices are with in a few $ of each other. Will post some fotos for you all in the coming days. Cheers.
We Await. Hi, Maputowhite. Welcome back. Good news on the balls. We await your photos.
Yair... maputowhite for what its worth (if you are still following this thread) three tractors working together are very effective in heavy timber. With Allis HD 21's we used to run our main chain at about 360 to 400 feet with the centre tractor on a 150 to 180 foot leader shackled to the centre by way of a heavy triangle flame cut from four inch plate. In operation the centre machine was to some extent a "free agent" as much of the time he wasn't under load. He could wander around just leaning the big stuff...it is critical to try and NOT push it over. If the centre tractor and the inside or outside machine hit a snag and start to spin their tracks the centre machine backs up allowing the other two to take the load, when he hits it again its surprising what will jump out of the ground. Can't imagine why you are having trouble with the chain clogging up with trash. It happens occasionaly, thats why you try to avoid pushing trees over, but it should'nt be a problem. You need to teach your operators how to cross and work the chain, it's no problem to clatter back and sort out a pile of dragging crap. The guys here were pretty right, the hi-ball in the centre of the chain was to give it a bit of extra height. In effect if you were stuck on a tree it was possible toget the chain about six feet up with a bit of stuffing round. The whole concept was a pain in the butt and as well as I remember no one persevered with it for very long. The lo-balls that I tried were solid cast iron, about two feet in diameter and the theory was they would prevent the chain from riding up. They were a waste of time too. Nothing we ever tried was as effective as two and a half inch stud-link behind the D8's and 21's and three inch Esco dragline chain on the D9's.