Yair . . . This may be of interest . . . how far can this go? https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/ Cheers.
thats been around for a long time now, more and more companies are going to jump on the bandwagon to MAKE you goto an authorized dealer to get anything that has a computer chip or part to get repaired or face big fines if you hack into their computer systems...now this is just the beginning..do you want to hot rod a truck or car?? not anymore if you arent authorized to touch their software...more of big brother watching and controlling you..
So if a machine breaks down due to computer failure during harvesting and the tech can't get there in a timely manner to do the fix and the weather turns to **** and the crop s ruined, is the manufacture liable for loss of income? If not they should be as they "own" the product that failed.
Yair . . . Bloody hell Tones, you're a mind reader!! I was to about to propose exactly that scenario. I had it in a word document and was about to copy and paste it into here. I just can't get my head around manufacturers being able to sell machinery and not transfer to the buyer "all rights" and complete technical details and instructions as how to trouble shoot and repair. Cheers.
Blame it on IBM, Bill Gates, and lots of shank-ass lawyers.
Even further, what happens when a manufacturer considers a part/machine 'obsolete' and no longer supports it? I have a perfectly good Volvo here that they consider obsolete and can't supply many parts for and don't want to release the control board schematics so I can fix it. Now what? Dealer actually told me, "well we have some great financing on new machines now". Sure, if I was doing cost plus gov't work I'd just order up some new machines with service contracts, but I'm not. Besides I'm a cheap old buzzard and hate chucking things just because some text book engineer says it has exceeded its expected life. My 1932 irrigation pump with a flathead 6 has been moving water just fine for over 80 years. I don't consider anything obsolete until it rusts into the ground. And if I paint it - it won't. Got a very nice low mileage VW tdi, needs a computer. VW says no gots. Used one is a crap shoot at $800 bucks. Why not release the schematics and let aftermarket make them? You want to own it? Fine. Ship a mechanic and parts truck with each machine. I've got a 6 week "make money" season each spring and can't be waiting days/weeks around for you to fix what I could in hours. Gotta love this planned obsolescence garbage.
Here is a later entry into that debate but the same author a week or two later. I'm doing a little research on the subject and will post as I find out more. http://ifixit.org/blog/7192/john-deere-mess/
Here is a more balanced article on the issue from Equipment World Magazine. Keep in mind these guy make their money on advertising products made by the manufacturers. http://www.equipmentworld.com/ownership-and-machine-software/
This is the most recent article I have found so far. It apparently was written this year. http://ifixit.org/blog/8722/dmca-hurts-jobs/
This is the link to the software agreement John Deere will require a purchaser to sign. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/12/john-deere-really-doesnt-want-you-own-tractor
I found a link to the copyright ruling apparently done this year. The link is below and you have to scroll down to page 39. The thought process and ruling conclude on page 44. My interpretation is that an owner has the right to open up the locks on the software for purposes of operation, repair or modification as long as such manipulation does not cause the machine to violate any applicable laws such as emissions or safety protections. The is likely the reason John Deere implemented the software agreement on purchase of a machine. https://www.copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pdf
In reality, unless you had to have the machine inspected or had to take it to a dealer, how would they ever know? Disconnect any product link features, or stop paying for them, and you should be good to go.
Yeah , few years back local John Deere dealer owners got in a little trouble & ended up loosing the dealership . These guys along with the JD dealership also farmed pretty big . Problem was the inventory sheets did not match what they actually had on the lot . Someone from the company started investigating and through the GPS system found the missing tractors pretty quick ........ On the JD dealers farm . LOL ! Goodbye to the corrupt & there nonsense . I knew there was a reason I stayed with Minneapolis-Moline
The issue I think is if there were a problem Deere was claiming you didn't have the right to do it yourself and they would use the Copyright Act to file suit. Unhook the product link and the machine is dead?
the software is so heavily embedded with programs to spy and collect info on you, you will never find them in the programing, just more of big brother watching..
I think it goes deeper than you think. A company like John Deere can, through the software and its wireless link back to the factory, obtain a lot of data from your farm regarding implement use, fertiliser use & type, pesticide/herbicide use and type, fuel use and so on. They can then sell this valuable data to third parties in the agricultural industry for a tidy sum. What you then get is a lot of marketing directed at you from the data you unwittingly supplied but don't own. You are becoming a fantastic profit centre for John Deere and the like but all you get is your rights to use the equipment as you see fit taken away. I'd be supporting what ifixit is doing to retain the rights to repair and alter the equipment you have purchased. This is going to get a lot worse for us end users if we don't stand up. And of course most heavy equipment manufacturers think like John Deere. AusDave
I spoke to a computer geek mate of mine today and he very sure the copyright laws in the US don't apply here in OZ. With that said anyone here who hacked a puter and fixed it would be OK was far Australian Law is concerned. He mentioned a legal test case which would cover it. I am sad for any buyers of new equipment in the US that may have to go through this crap
I hope any Aussies who do so post the details all over the internet.
If US copyright laws don't apply in Australia why do we have some of the most restrictive laws regarding movies from the likes of Hollywood? We don't even have fair usage rights as many other countries do. Movies, software, whatever, if we want to use it we have to accept highly restrictive copyright agreements otherwise you can't have it. Sure you may be able to hack the computer on a Deere, Cat etc but I'll bet if you went to get it repaired by an authorised dealer/or other authorised repairer they probably wouldn't be able to/refuse to work on the machine with their diagnostic gear leaving you potentially stranded with an inoperable machine. It's also not hard for an OEM to place traps through the software/firmware so that if you did try to hack or repair it you trigger the trap immobilising the whole electronics package. Unless you have legislated rights by law, the manufacturers hold all the cards in the long run. The integration of the whole machine engine, trans, hydraulics, HVAC into the ECU on equipment nowadays really makes it hard to hack anyway if you don't have even the most basic info/codes to begin with. With the current imbalance in favour of the manufacturer over the profit centre, I mean customer, (wry smile), things can only get potentially worse creating a class of machine operating serfs Sorry to sound so negative but the way it's going doesn't look good to me. It's not like computerisation and networking are intrinsically bad, they have many advantages in control and efficiency. Look at GPS and where we would be if the military didn't allow access to this technology. As a matter of fact GPS is a good example of making a technology open and accessible to all and not excessively locked down. Needless to say most of my machinery and vehicles have no or minimal electronics and I can repair it myself or find a reasonable mechanic who can. It would be great to open source the software and hardware ECU side of things, though the temptation to bypass emission control would be hard to avoid. Hopefully when we are using battery electric machinery, this gripe will be a thing of the past as the range of issues with control electric motors and their peripherals is much more suited to open source programmers doing a better job than OEMs. At a minimum, give owners the legal right to at least repair to factory specs by providing the necessary info. Sorry for the lengthy post, I think this issue is going to become bigger though, AusDave
John Deere is putting WAY more time and effort into computer & electronics development and legal strategy than building good tractors. I've sold Deere...have never been a Deere guy, and right now they've got IMHO some of the worst equipment on the market. I won't buy one, won't sell one. When I worked in the IT space most people didn't realize with boxes like servers and even routers and switches...they legally could not resell the unit with software. Cisco would make you buy a new license if you were not the original purchaser of the equipment before they would give any tech support. Legally they could trace back and disable any used Cisco boxes if they had the time / felt it was a worth while effort. They don't because of the push back it would generate. I could see a day in the not to distant future where a used tractor buyer would need a new software license before a dealer would repair it. And unlike routers and switches that are fairly bullet proof, good luck getting a newer Deere to run for more than 6 months without support. BTW, that Equipment World article is laughable. A decade ago I would occasionally hear grumbling from some contractors about having to buy or lease software to do diagnostic test on machines. But with the rapid emergence of telematics data that argument seems to have vanished. Integrated into the software that controls the machines, the telematics systems today will often give you early warning of potential problems and thus prevent catastrophic and expensive failures. Oh yea, all my customers LOVE the electronics. They're tickled with all the new equipment's electronics. It's why more and more are leasing new tractors (which is IMHO bad on many levels as well) with full warranty. But we are getting away from an ownership society and new emissions / electronics are a big part of that...that's a very bad thing as a free society. It basically becomes an indentured society where no one is ever free. I'll pass. These leases that are taking over the market are IMHO very short sighted. Too many manufactures are driven by 'market share' (Deere started that mess as well) but no one is looking at the fall out when all these used tractors show up on lots.
Turned in leases bombing the used ag market happened 18+ months ago. Got to the point where the dealer would not take a trade on a 2yr/2400hr combine. Last I heard they got that one traded off, but the dealer won't touch the other 3. With commodity prices what they are the guys that don't put 1000+ hours/year on combine aren't looking to upgrade to a nicer, newer one and the guys that do are running out of warranty.
About 25 years ago a young Deere rep told me that Deere's master plan at that time was to eventually reduce the number of dealerships in the US to about twenty, all big corporate outfits spanning several states, and eventually shift to a near 100% rental business model, eventually operated rental, no ownership at all if they could avoid it. The emissions and computerization just kinda played into their hands huh?
It's like I always say, the computer never tells you when something is really wrong with the machine, more often you have to recognize it and fix it and the computer hardly knows anything. On the other hand, if the computer is throwing codes, it is usually nonsense and a waste of time to fix.
My Deere experience is most codes are not the sensors that it says have failed, but rather a short in their ****** wiring harnesses that are never protected and typically routed where only a moron would put it. (Have seen harness run around exhaust, sharp corners, or where nothing was used to tether down the harness properly) I've had sub 20 hour machines with rub through the kevlar protector. Deere is one of the few that doesn't plastic encapsulate harnesses. Even our 80's model Allis Chalmers had plastic tube around the wires and for the most part those machines only had starters, lights, and basic instruments. I know they've been told at the highest levels, but no changes have been made.
No one on the mfg level was upset about emissions...which always troubled me. But then a few years ago I realized these morons are thinking this will kill the sale of used equipment from the US to the overseas market and they'll be able to sell new iron to the Mexicans, S. Americans, and Africans. Great idea...but those places don't have that type of money. Also, I don't think any of them anticipated how much compliance would cost or how badly the used equipment prices here would drop as gluts of used tractors pile up. Deere's Tier 4 solution has a ton of 'overhead' on it which makes it a very inefficient motor for fuel use. They've always been on the leading edge of computers...which I'm not a huge fan of in industrial applications. Does it seem like I hate Deere? : ) As a equipment user and equipment broker, I try to find my customers the best product for them to make a living with. I won't sugar coat a bad product. I like the older Deere stuff, J series loaders and dozers were pretty darn good. But I've never drank the green Kool-Aid, and always thought their marketing greatly surpassed their equipment on the Ag side.
Another fun story i forgot, Larsen Farms Dalhart, TX Division recently turned in 20 something 8360R leases and the dealer sent them to auction. I don't know if they've given up on the dream yet, but they've put a ton of money into trying to grow potatoes down there.
About 10 years ago I was working with a bloke who had a German made Excavator. He told me about all the electronics on the machine which sounded like a nightmare. There are no rep's for it here in Australia. I asked him how he got on when he had a problem with the puter system. Easy he said, plug a USB cable off the machine into his mobile phone and ring Germany. They fixed it from there, reckoned it was strange to have the engine reving up and down without anyone in the seat. So if that could be done 10 years ago why can't the ** manufactures do that today given all the advancements in communication etc?
Dealers can't charge $120/hr plus mileage for that.
They can...problem is that it only works when you've know you're not dealing with a bad harness. Most US manufactures are so 'cost savings' focused they're using wire that's not fit for happy meal toys. When I briefly worked at the Deere dealer I sold a 700k to a customer that had 400 hours on it. During those 400 hours it had 13 warranty calls. All electronic. When I go back to Iowa ever time I see a Deere tech working on a neighbors combine or tractor they're in the cab with a PC. I can tell you that 1/2 or more of those 'codes' of component or sensor failures are electronic shorts due to wire harnesses.
You are singing my song. Even worse here in California where they came up with that scheme to replace practically every truck on the highway. All I can say is I hope the warranty cost on this garbage hurt them badly in return for their complicity.
CA cannot seem to commit financial suicide fast enough. Worst of all some are fleeing here...and we all know they'll bring their deranged beliefs with them. : ( It's so hard to know what the true costs on most of these items really are when you're talking about a manufactured high HP tractor or truck. I'm starting to think it's not what I used to assume. Manufactures with their own engines are doing well as the costs of those are astronomical. Down here the Cat dealer isn't covering electronics, so much of those warranties are worthless. Sadly most customers don't read them and I've seen a lot of sales reps lie about what the true coverage really is for a machine. You should ask for a printed copy of the warranty coverage before signing any contract for a purchase or lease. IF electronic components are not on there I'd tell you that you don't have much of a warranty on these new tractors. Everything will be 'an electronic issue' or will have an 'electronic component' to the claim that will void or cover the costs of most of your repairs.
the stuff i read here are horrifying.. CAT doesnt offer warranty in electronics.. what do they offer then ? Deere and all these electronics which are not only deere but all the HE. As i wrote before I think more and more people will start buying older machines not made for just the years of "warranty" and to support the spare part business cause seals and gaskets from **** materials and no **** electronics where you dont even have the rights for.. Here in Eastern Europe Serbia uses still old O and K old CAT and Komatsu. They still do the work if maintained correctly.
Cat covers 1 year full machine. Down here they offer extended but it's power train or power train / hydraulics only. That's most manufactures. I don't think anyone fully realizes what we're in for when these machines get older.
I picked up a technical manual for a newer JD tractor a few days ago. Wiring diagrams run to 500+ pages. This will be fun in 15 years.
the manufactures know exactly what is in store,,you will be buying new machines faster when you have to spend a fortune to try and fix the electronics in older machines if you can even find the electrical components... how many people actually go fix a 10 year old computer or lapatop?? you dont you chuck it and buy new...planned obsolescence...
When I toured the Cat factory fall before last Cat was still building machines for less regulated countries with no heavy emmissions packages on them. Meanwhile even our U.S. A. military machines are saddlied with all the electronic show stoppers.
In the automotive sector it turned so ugly the Fed stepped in requiring ALL makes to use the same code and electronics signatures for diagnostics to cut garage expenses and to stop any chances of anti-trust law being crossed, it could end up showing out here too. The Sherman Anti-Trust laws could shut this down. OBD-II came of this so a technician in a independent garage could access diagnostics in cars to repair them without having to pay a dealer or manufacturer for right to do so.
I would HIGHLY recommend writing your representation in the US, Canada and elsewhere to get this nipped before out of control. I just did.
On road trucks are pretty standard, even a lot of off road machines will communicate on J1939 with a regular OBDII, 6, or 9 pin Deutsch, like Deere, CNH, lot of euro equipment. Cat has their own connectors (9 pin with the slot and the new 14? pin), Volvo, Bobcat, Kubota, Yanmar, are all different
As much as I hate laws they should have to be compatible if sold in this country.