Hello i am in a bit of a pickle currently with a Skid steer I won at a Richie bros auction. The hour meter and website reported 2k hours yet upon further investigation (i actually dont want to reveal too many details because I am afraid to be singled out) The machine was sold last year with nearly 10k hours on the meter. I have not paid for it yet, and the auction did not have me sign any physical documents (other than clicking a few boxes online through their website and enter things like my name and home address, didnt provide my social or license number). Should I be the one on the hook for not wanting to pay up? I have not paid for it and there is no way I can purchase it now with such hours and I even found the listing online for about half of what I paid for it. How do I dig myself out of this hole? is it possible that RB can sue me even though, again I did not physically sign anything? What kind of attorney should I contact? Just so that I am completely transparent there is a box that says hours on a machine cannot be verified which is posted on every listing of every machine but that doesnt mean that something that has been tampered with can be legally sold without fully disclosing it.
My first step would be to contact R/B with the evidence you have to prove the hours are inaccurate. Most auction houses require that their listings be accurate to preserve their reputation. They may be willing to work with you.
You will have to read the fine print, but pretty typical to have to pay a hefty fee to not complete purchase, I’ve seen up to 4K or so. Good luck.
In agreeing to the bidding form, you have legally bound yourself. You agree when registering for the auction. Hour meters are a replaceable item, and the auction company has no real way to know actual hours. You evidently did your research after the auction, rather than before. The idea that "I gave too much, so now I shouldn't have to pay" is absolutely ridiculous. Auctions aren't amazon or walmart. Put on your big boy pants. Ritchie didn't make you put in your bid.
Thanks this is what was on my mind but I need to have a plan b in mind in case they are not as benevolent and tell me I still have to pay up.. I know that if they do take that route I will most likely be banned from bidding ever again but its still better than throwing 25 grand down the drain.. What concerns me is whether I can get sued for not paying.
you would not be saying such BS if it were your 25 grand on the table. It wasnt an investment gone south or a streak of bad luck, it was an outright fraudulent sale. Tell me you selling any equipment out in missouri id love to come check it out some time.
'Bids are irrevocable, and all sales are final. If you're the highest bidder when the auctioneer announces that an item has been sold, you're the new owner of that item. Everything sells "as is, where is" We recommend that you visit the auction site to inspect any items you'd like to buy before bidding on auction day. You may also send someone to the site to conduct the inspection on your behalf' Information easily found on the Richie Bros website. Be a man and pay your dues. This is what's wrong with the world today. People do not own up to their decisions / actions. Mean what you say and do what you mean. Don't pick and choose actions based upon what's convenient for you at the time. :/
That's not always true. On another forum someone bought a high end inverter welder at RB that had obvious internal problems that couldn't be detected and were never disclosed to RB or the seller. RB refunded the buyers money but may not legally had to. In that instance it was a fairly clear case of misrepresentation and there was no way to try it out before purchase. RB did the right thing. An hour meter being wrong I don't thinks equates to gross misrepresentation. Maybe the hour meter had gone around once or was replaced? Did RB offer times when an in person physical inspection could be performed? Where did you see the same machine listed for 1/2 what you paid? Buyers remorse isn't a good enough reason to back out of a sale. You need to reveal all the details you are reluctant to in order to get any advice that may help you. Curious what the actual machine is? If you agreed to RB's terms you could potentially be sued.
Unfortunately you can’t really rely on hour meters since most are replaceable I had to replace one a few years ago because it degraded to the point that I couldn’t read it. I use it to “time” the hours between maintenance items I wrote down approximately what the old hours were next to the new one. some things to look for to corroborate the hour meter readings are markings on filters (I write down the hours on the filter when I change them)
I've spent quite a bit more than that at auction. And there's a lot of guys that have spent way more than me. Here's how the real auction world works: Someone has equipment that they don't have the time to fix, or can't deal with selling personal, and dealing with tire kickers and buyers who want perfect equipment at fire sale prices. So they drag it to auction. Its gone and its no longer their problem. Here's how as a buyer it works: You see the pictures, figure they have repainted it or hid the sins with dirt and grease. Whatever year the equipment is, figure at least 1,000 to 1,500 hours per year- no matter what the hour meter says. You need to buy it at a price that you can afford to fix whatever is wrong with it (because there's always things wrong with it, that's why its at auction). So you need to buy it cheap, so you can afford to fix it, and still have a deal, or can afford the loss. If you can't handle those kind of things, you shouldn't be buying at a auction. This isn't amazon with free returns with no shipping costs. If you aren't happy, you still owe them the money. So yes, you do need to put on your big boy pants, at auction no one else is looking out for you but you . You can easily put it up for sale again, through them or somewhere else. It will cost you a little $$, but chalk it up as a learning experience. You gave that much for it, and someone else was bidding against you, so there is at least one other buyer out there for it. Good luck.
Great, your solution is to basically bend over for RB and whatever scammer on the other end wanted to make a quick buck selling their piece of **** and figured the best way to do that was to roll back some dials and voila now its magically worth 2x as much. This is why this country is going to hell because there are no honest men anymore or men for that matter that have enough balls to stand up for their self and let the dirt bags walk all over them with their fists down. The most absurd thing is after telling me to fall through being a victim of a dirt bag scam that if I feel so bad about it I should cut my losses and simply become the grease ball by finding some sucker to scam right back by "putting it for sale again". Listen I heard enough of what you had to say. Move on to another thread.
The same could be said about your integrity agreeing to the terms of the auction and then backing out. What if it went the other way and the machine was much better then you thought during the bidding, would you be ok with them canceling the sale?
I deeply sympathize with your dilemma and I agree with you that this is what is wrong with the world. But the fact is the whole history of man has had its scammers and scams. And the other fact is. You didn't do your homework and expected honesty from a sales forum known to sell something that appears to be something other than what it is. Did they advertise it as a low hour machine? If so you have some recourse. If not then you own it. Richie Brothers has always taken in machines cleaned them up and give it a Dupont overhaul. That isn't dishonest it's a sales tactic. It is ultimately up to you to determine whether you are getting what you want. I have been paid great money to do inspections of equipment at auction so the buyer can make a informed decision. But I won't pressure you to do anything that you don't want to do. The right thing to do is to take the loss and move on.
I hate it for you, but having bought a few items at auction I fully realized at a RB auction I had the ability to inspect it. Should I choose to not do so, then that is on me. We all can see that the RB "inspection" isn't much more than a glance. Now- I've bought Iron Planet and they back up their inspections. But, that's not how this one played out.
I buy a lot at auctions. Everything from heavy equipment to industrial tooling and auto parts. At EVERY auction the terms are always stated, announced and written down. Before the auction the auction er asks if anyone needs clarification. They sell the stuff. At any point durning the auction question can and are asked. Many places record the entire auction. In all cases, sales are final. The only exceptions I have seen are when the things pictured or described ended up going missing. One auction for auto parts was sold by the piece with guaranteed quantities, so you paid more or less total at the end. Otherwise you bought it, you own it. Especially at places like RB it is important to do an inspection and know what you are looking at. If you don’t know pay for someone to do a survey. Many buyers bring an operator and a mechanic. They bring code readers to plug in. You may not like the advice you are getting but I agree, you own it.
Knowing the problems that equipment can have and the 'horse traders' that are out there, I can't imagine ever spending thousands of dollars on something without verifying before hand what someone is telling you.
I can understand the point about finding out after the fact that the hours are not what you and RB had hoped they were but do you really expect for RB or Iron Planet to spend hours researching each and every machine they have on their sites? I have a Sportster sitting in my garage and after ridding it for around 95,881 miles the speedometer simply rattled itself to bits inside. So I went online to find a replacement. Tried a new aftermarket speedo, new ones no longer made, and it only lasted a few weeks so my next option was to locate a good used one and I got lucky and found a guy who had one off a wrecked bike with 23,073 miles on the OD. So now if I were to drop dead this afternoon and wife, who probably has no idea I had replaced the speedometer years ago, was to put it in an auction and someone inspected it and saw the odometer was showing 45,095 miles they might assume that was the correct miles and sell it with that in mind. Then if after the auction the person buying it happened to go on Heavy Equipment Forums and read this post do you really think the auction company should be obligated to refund the selling price? Just saying that there is a difference between tampering with a meter with the intent to deceive a buyer and someone just making a repair to a piece of equipment and there not being a paper trail that notes when something was fixed and why. Now if you can hire an investigator who can track everyone who has owned this machine since new and determine that the hour meter was replaced at some specific point and this was done with the express intent to hid the total hours you may have a leg to stand on. I can say that in the 40+ years I have worked on heavy equipment I have replaced probably dozens of hour meters, some with new and some with used ones. At times the replacement meter was actually showing more hours that the one that failed. So now do I have to be worried five years after I retired that the 1845C the company sold at auction a couple months ago may not be listed with the correct hours because no one thought to dig through my old files to see if I had replaced the meter back in 1998 because a stone had broke the glass and meter was full of mud?
A friend who had an auto repair business used to say to people complaining about how much repairs can cost on a used vehicle, oh you wanted new with warranty... you need to go to Ron Hodgson (dealer) for that. An hour meter is the last thing to rely on on any used machine. RB even states they cannot verify the meter reading. They also advise to fully inspect machines you are considering purchasing. Unless you have the complete service history there is no real way to verify hours. A lot of places will replace the hour meter after an overhaul as well. How do you even turn back an hour meter? Could the hour meter have gone around once already? Hour meters can go bad too. I don't know why you're calling it a scam. It's an auction and a lot of people use them to get rid of machines they don't want to be bothered with anymore. Sometimes there are really good deals on really good equipment too. You would have to prove gross misrepresentation with intent to deceive and that would be extremely difficult to do because of a wrong hour meter reading.
There is a saying I came up with years ago when someone asks me about auction equipment and it goes like this..........."Auction!? You best EXPECT to get ****** buying anything at an auction." Its just like ordering from a drive thru.........(best Joe Pesci voice).....You ALWAYS get ****** at the drive thru!"
If I said once I said it a thousand times. There is a reason it went to auction. People don't sell their equipment because it's a good machine and someone else needs to have it. I'm not saying every machine is junk, but you must assume that it is. And you have to decide how much you want to pay for it and put into repairs. Inspections and cost benefit analysis are the homework I am talking about. Don't expect for someone to feel sorry for you because you made a hasty decision. I bet everyone on this forum has a story about not doing their due diligence and hastily bought something and soon regretted it. Who knows... maybe it's a decent machine and has been well taken care of. I personally never seen a 10,000 hour skidsteer. But with my personal experience with any skidsteer. It should at least had every component changed by 10k hours. People abuse the hell out of these things and I have changed all components on various machines with less hours than 10k hours.
"I made a mistake. It must be somebody else's fault" - the cry of the snowflake generation. Fail to do due diligence on an auction lot, be prepared to get bitten in the ***.
i've said it before, bid on it like something may be wrong with it and then you are prepared. if its good, you scored a deal. if you want peace of mind, buy from a dealer with 30 day warranty, haggle a deal, and write the check. just my 2cents
If RB sold the same machine a year ago showing 10K on the hour meter and ran it through a year later with 2K on the hour meter, you may have a case to make. If not legally (given the expressions given in the RB bidding info) perhaps morally and RB might step up and help you out. Probably should have fully investigated the machine prior to buying it to save yourself. Like expressed above, you have to take care of yourself at an auction. Whatever you did to find this information, could have been done prior to buying it. If RB didn't sell this machine the first time you found it, you will either pay to own it or face whatever RB does in circumstances when someone doesn't pay for the bid that they won. Bad deal for you, but that is the reality of buying items at auction. I have bought a fair amount of equipment at RB and Iron Planet (now owned by RB) and never bought anything that surprised me. Probably some luck in that perhaps, but 26 years in the business and trying to educate myself on equipment doesnt hurt either.
Lots of unethical arseholes selling equipment, spotted a Deere 855 compact tractor on c-list the other day....503 hours, hourmeter just broke, new one ordered. Bullcrap, footrests were wore bare of paint, I have a 955 (bigger brother) almost 2k hours, still have ALL the paint on the footrests. Ed
Somebody else could have bought the machine and done something with the hour meter to try to get their money back or more money for it. I'm real curious if a visual in person inspection was done or it was bought off looking at pics?
I've always viewed auctions as a way people get rid of crap. If it's there because the company went belly up, well what's the first thing that gets ignored when money's tight? Maintenance.
Well not 10,000 but I know of a Case 1845C that was sold on Iron Planet just this last year with something over 6,000 hours on it! I was around it from the day the company bought it new in 1989 and up till I retired in 2015. Last I knew it still had all the original components, diesel motor, pumps and drive motors. Hydraulic cylinders and drive chains and wheel bearings would be an all together different story, Oh yea did replace water pump twice first time the aftermarket one failed so an OEM one was installed. As of September of 2014 when my entries in the files stopped it had 350 lines of notes on the work done to it over those years. And this was not a machine that lived an easy life, it spent those years doing clean-up work in a stone quarry. Just checked on Iron Planet and see the hour meter was showing 4,083 hours so was that one was sold under false information as I know for a fact that the hour meter was replaced at 2,900 hours? Just read further in the Iron Planet report and guess someone at the quarry actually gave my old files to the inspector as there was these notes: "4,083.2 Hours - IronPlanet makes no guarantees as to actual hours/miles; we can only report what can be visually observed." "There are repair records with the following meter reading greater than that on the meter: 2,874" By the way that 1989 1845C sold for $6,900 no wonder I can't afford one to play with in the yard! Anyone here from Texas buy a used 1845C? I could send you some files on it!
I don't buy at auction, unless I am at the auction, physically, to inspect, either on the day of sale, or at the preview. There's an old adage, my grandfather taught me, works every time you use it, "Never buy a pig in the poke"...
Ritchie bros have been pretty good at changing some of the bad auction stereotypes around here. They seem to move a lot of good iron for good prices and will usually stand behind the quality of an item listed if you catch the problem right away. They will actually go back on the seller and hold back payment. You really need to present your evidence of tampering to them immediately and let them decide whether you have a legitimate case of misrepresentation. At least they may waive any penalty and resell the item with proper hours listed.
Not to beat a dead horse but I personally don't like the term "tampered" with in this context. Like I said in my post about the 1845C I personally replaced the hour meter due to it failing. In my case the person from Iron Planet was lucky as someone from the company selling the loader happened to think to show him the records I had made and the fact that right up at the top of the page I had noted the replacement of the meter. Here is the top of the first page of the file: It also could have happened differently, say the day the inspector showed up the guy doing my job could have been out sick and the boss did not know how to access the files. Believe me the boss is not all that computer literate! Or I could have noticed the meter was bad a couple weeks before I retired and replaced it but in the rush to tie up loose ends over look making a not in the files and now the hours would be way under what was really on the machine. So now would I be accused of "Tampering"? And to be honest I would not be as concerned about numbers on some meter on a piece of equipment as I would be on how it was treated over the years. I'm sure most here could look at a machine and spot things that would show one way or the other if a machine was going to be a money pit or was a used but solid piece of equipment. This is one of the reasons why seeing a machine first hand can be so critical!
If you have evidence, present it to ritchie. They may side with you and ban the seller.
As we all know hour meter get changed on equipment all the time. They get broken or simply quit. The issue here appears to be how to determine whether the hours were deliberately tampered wiith on the part of the seller by installing a different meter before sending it to auction, or whether the hour meter had been changed at least once in the past and there was a lack of historical maintenance records to send with it to auction. One is a deliberate attempt to defraud, the other is not, IMHO.
My skid steer is shut off with the throttle and then the key also has to be turned off. If you forget to turn the key off the hour meter will keep running till the battery goes dead. Some hour meters are run off an oil pressure switch and others are run off the tach. All of them can go bad. It would be very difficult to prove an hour meter was tampered with. Buyer beware is most appropriate when it comes to hour meters. They are the last thing to rely on. I'm curious what skid steer this was that sold for 25K and apparently had a ton of hours on it.
What I'm trying to wrap my head around was how OP determined it was that exact machine that was sold a year ago. I'm sure we've all been burned with this at one time but is it possible someone included the 1/10th hour digit in the reading a year ago and it was actually around 1,000 hours and not 10,000 hours?
Very good point! I have seen people make that mistake back when I was working at the quarry and used the operators inspection sheets to keep track of the service hours also some guys would use the odometer in a truck and really mess with me!
I know it's a bit OT but it does relate to auction bought equipment. Many years back the company bought a Koehring truck crane from a friend of my boss who's main job was buying and selling used equipment. Short time after we got this crane that had 2 Chrysler gas V8 engines, I believe truck engine was a 413 and the crane engine was a 318, I was sent to another quarry where it was being used as operator was complaining about the way the truck end was running. Long story short I found the advance in the truck engine distributor was retarding instead of advancing when revved up. In the end we learned that the crane was sold at auction after it was repossessed and apparently the guy who it was repossessed from had tried to keep it by removing the distributor from the truck end and when the repossession people got there someone was smart enough to pull the distributor from crane end and stick it in the truck end! Now if there are any Chrysler people here they probably know why that would not be the best thing to do, worked to get the crane moved but did cause me some head scratching!
The only way the hours could be truly verified is if there pulled from a ecm and it has never been replaced with out the correct hours being set at that time. Personally I think you are tough out of luck on this one.
I'll disagree, if the hours went from almost 10,000 to 2,000 in one year, then walk away from it. Give RB a chance to look at the evidence and make their own decision, but I think I'd do it by email, not in person, I'm a non confrontational guy that way, stick to the facts. Then look at your state law and the UCC if they don't let you off, or they threaten to sue. They can write anything they want in their contract, it's only enforceable if it's legal in your state. And I don't think that would fly for one second if the facts are as you represent them. In reality their worst case is having to advertise the thing on their next sale with the correct hours, they're not likely to sue you, they're going to sell it again, probably with the new lower hours and hope the next guy takes it for a more realistic price. Now if you bought an old tractor for $5 or $10K at an estate auction and came back when you found out the hour meter had been replaced a couple years ago, that would be ridiculous. RB is in the business of selling junk, and they are protected from most claims from disgruntled buyers by their contracts, but you're not claiming damages, you haven't paid for something fraudulent that they let slip through, and you're not going to.
Lots of auctions are liquidations. A company might be going bankrupt, have a huge judgement against them or some board of directors who knows nothing about things mechanical decides the company must replace any equipment made before XXXX.
I don't know if the OP is still around but I think providing all the details he was reluctant too would help to clarify just exactly what happened with this particular machine. RB's is a huge company and they can't be expected to verify all the info on all the items they sell is accurate. Now in the case of the welder I posted earlier they did the right thing because the seller failed to disclose major internal problems. I think that would only work based on the selling price. If a $1500 machine sells for $100, sorry you're out of luck. If there is no way to inspect it and it appeared fine from outside appearance and the seller never disclosed a major problem then RB can go back on the seller. A skid steer is different because RB offers ample time to fully inspect and run equipment they sell. RB runs the full gambit from worn out junk for parts to brand new machines with warranty. The OP has nothing to lose going back to RB with his claims the hour had been tampered with. It's highly possible someone bought it and realized it was getting long in the tooth so changed the hour meter to try to get a higher price or their money back. RB may look at that and let you out of the sale. Having all the details/evidence to support your claim would make it much easier to offer advice on the matter. We still don't even know if an in person visual inspection was done on the machine.
The meter reading is for the most part just a number and used by buyers to assume the machine is still in good shape/ life left in it. A machine with 10,000 hours on it could be just as reliable as one with 2,000. The real difference is going to be on the hammer price
I'd like to know what kind of skidsteer got 10,000 hours on it and still be in decent enough shape to get some money for it .
So now get Richie Brothers auction advertisements everywhere. The internet has this sales / advertising algorithm running like a fine tuned machine. I am afraid the original poster is reluctant to share all the details because he is afraid we people would disagree with him and or not buy the machine should he try to re-sell it. The real question is if he follows through with the purchase will he disclose all this information to the new potential buyer? I doubt it. It might have a new hour meter in its future. Side note I am skeptical of hour meters on any piece of equipment / vehicle (mileage in this case). Some common sense goes a long way in this type of critical thinking. If it is really old with low hours it doesn't make sense. If it is brand new with a ton of hours it doesn't make sense. Let the machine condition / physical appearance do the talking. I will say I have been surprised multiple times. Sometimes for the good / sometimes for the bad. 'Oh wow this classic car really only has 10,000 miles on it!' This was validated when working on the automobile. If anyone told me or I looked at it via internet pictures I would say 'pffft yeah right'. Other times this machine is beat up so badly their is no way it only has 1000 hours run time. Let the machine do the talking. If anyone is interested I have a 1980's 843 Bobcat for sale with only 1200 hours? Anyone believe that??? JK
That last part is the reason the 1845C was sold, company also had a JCB Skid-steer that was a money pit from the day they got it but the only way they could get permission to buy a new skid-steer was to sell the oldest one.
I'll offer you a dollar for every hour on that Bobcat! You deliver to Central NY?
That's the kind of policy you end up with when you hire college boy management.
There is no fraud on as-is auctions, you better inspect in person or hire someone to inspect first before bidding.
Besides, It could easily be a basket case even with an actual 1200 hours on it. ***? Auction companies often auction off the flood damaged machines for the insurance company with ZERO hours on them.
Ive seen ONE AND ONE ONLY perfectly good 1845C w/original cummins 15000 hours but only used triple shift with pallet forks it's entire life, and impeccably maintained. Only one in 30 years personally.
That depends on the state, if an auction company sells lot #123 "as is, where is" then you buy it as is, where is. If they describe it "1845C with 2,500 hours" then they don't get away with lying by saying "as is" if it's a IH with 5,000 hours. If it's got a broken hour meter, or 12,500 hours then you're probably out of luck, but if it's been tampered with you have a case. If you buy a rusty old something from the old ladies doing an estate sale, you won't have any luck coming back and saying it's not even a Case, any auctioneer should know the difference.
I think it would be based on each specific machine. An unscrupulous seller could make something appear to be much better than it is without telling the auction company. That could be considered fraud and the auction company may have recourse. The price paid could also be taken into consideration.
I bought a old rather rare D4 on a on line auction a few years ago. When I went to retrieve it a few days later it had a different serial number series than advertised. It was a very common machine. The seller was pissed and called me every name in the book but I refused to take it and contacted Auctiontime.com. They sent a rep out to the seller and confirmed my story. I was cleared with no charge to me. The seller then admitted to the auction house that the office gal had made a mistake. I always thought it was unusual that she got the series wrong to a rather rare series but got the rest of the serial numbers right. A month or so later I seen the machine for sale again with a correct serial number. It sold for less than 1/3 of the first sale.
It's unfortunate the person who started this thread didn't reply with how the issue was resolved. It's also unfortunate that so many of you think an "as-is" auction removes all liability from the auctioneer, or seller of the equipment. Hour meter tampering is often a criminal offense in many states just like messing with an odometer is. While an auctioneer may not validate the hour meter as being correct in the auction terms; the seller of the equipment cannot use the auctioneer to perpetuate fraudulent actions. If you have evidence that fraudulent actions have occurred, and the auction house doesn't want to address them you're fully within your rights to back out of the auction agreement. The auctioneer also has to correctly list the item. For example, they can't say it's a 2025 New Holland when it's actually a 2025 Case IH. Plenty of auction houses have gotten into trouble with aiding and abetting fraud.
Has anyone considered that whoever came up second place in the bidding was willing to buy at very close to that exact same price?