Hello all, I am new here an hope that this forum is as helpful and friendly as the Johnbridge forum for tile contractors that I participate in... I have just inherited an old Case 580 CK backhoe SN 8307527 with a gas motor. The previous owner has had health issues and passed it on to me hoping I could use it in my business. I am looking for help/suggestions to get it started. I has sat in a barn for 3 or 4 years with no attempt to start it. Just before it was parked the carburetor was rebuilt and it was running fine I am told. I have put a new NAPA battery in it and put in some fresh premium fuel. The engine turns over slow and does not seem to fire. I have hooked my Dodge 2500 Cummins to it with jumper cables directly to the starter and got very little boost in crank speed. The battery cables are very new looking and i have a good clean connection at the battery. I have loosened and tightened the connections at the starter solenoid to verify contact there as well. When I left it Thurs. evening I put my battery charger on it to make sure the battery was hot when I go back to try again Sat morning. Two thoughts I am having are: 1. Hydrolic loading - I do not know the controls of this machine. I cannot tell if something is engaged. The markings and stickers are gone. 2. starter is bad. Thing is the previous owner just had some heart trouble and is having a hard time with memory loss. He can't remember what is what on the machine and is no help at all. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
here are a couple of pictures.
I have no idea if these machines came with a 24v system but... For sure it's 12v?
Everything on the machine that I can see points to 12v. Napa looked up the machine and sold me one battery. All circumstantial evidence, but it is all I got. There is no evidence on the machine at all that it was a 24v system. I saw the machine running several years ago, so if it was converted, it has worked since then....
Case 580 CK has a 12 volt electrical system. I am assuming you checked the engine oil level, coolant level, have the main transmission in neutral, not just the shuttle shifter on the steering column, pulled the cap & checked the points and Condenser plus the coil. I would start checking the following: 1) The load draw from the starter, the starter may be bad. If that is OK... an easy check is to remove the starter and apply battery voltage to it, it should spin fast and free. 2) Remove the spark plugs and see how it turns over with no compression using a socket on the crank pulley. See if it has a hard spot. 3) Check the compression of each cylinder. These were a pretty simple tractor, very dependable and extremely popular.
The starter brushes may be rusted tight and just need to be loosened up to work better. Or the starter could be toast, or the engine is tight, but I'd start with the brushes. You might be able to access them without removing the starter? A gas engine needs spark, gas, compression. In the right ratio and order, but that's not as critical... If it turns over decently at all, it should start. Have you checked for spark? squirted some starting fluid into the intake after you confirmed it has spark? 3-4 years is plenty long for a carb to gunk up with ethanol, but you still/always check for spark first. As long as the hydraulic control valves pop back to center, and none of the functions move, then I wouldn't worry too much about hydraulic drag on an open center system like that. You should be able to turn the engine over with the fan and belt to check for anything dragging.
Being this is a gas engine one of the first things I would do is pull all the spark plugs and put a couple shots of Marvel Mystery oil or equivalent in each cylinder and turn over a couple times and then put a bit more in and let it set a day or two to soak in to things. Then with plugs still out crank it over several times, warning it will be a bit messy! If it turns nice and fast stick plugs on wires and see if they are all sparking good. Then reinstall them and see what happens.
That's what I would do....
That funny squeaking noise from dry cylinders is a give away. +1 for the Mystery Oil Joe H
No spark. Coil sounds like a musical instrument. Just picked one up and headed back out with it and condenser. I'll know in about an hour if that worked. Thanks for the advice.
Still did not start, but I could not get a set of points and I am fairly certain that they are bad. Hopefully I can get them at NAPA on Monday along with a cap, rotor, and wires. Thanks again for advice. It did turn over better today. I had the battery charger on it so it was good and hot. After getting it home I will need to look into the brakes. I was told that they did not work.
Jim ..........Welcome to the site and congrads on the ck .....I dont know much about the gas engine models my ck is a diesel and i love this machine it is a hard worker and there are a lot of guys on here with these machines .......As far as your points for that you might try autozone and ask for a set for a for one of the old 70's chevy engines and compare them it wouldnt surprise me if they would be the same but maybe not it cant hurt ......... Your brakes are like a lot of others on here and mine didnt work when i got it either ......I did like most and learned how to use the external brakes until i could fix the internal ones that are on the machine ( drop the bucket or backhoe and hold on ....and on some stops clean pants are needed) hahahaha Do you know if yours is a mechanical shuttle or a power shuttle model ??????????? if you do a search on the cks you will see a lot of great threads on here about the cks and they will help you get familiar with your machine here is a thread i started this past winter on mine when i went threw it and fixed a bunch of stuff and repainted it theres some good stuff on there and a little bit of craziness involved....... HeavyEquipmentForums We enjoy seeing pics of your project so if you can feel free to post pics of your progress and there are some experts on here and guys like me who are learning as we go but either way feel free to ask questions someone will usually answer... keep us posted.........
Very much appreciate the warm welcome xpack. I really enjoy these type of forums, the people are usually friendly and helpful. I went to autozone and found the coil and condenser but they did not find the points or cap/rotor. I hope to locate the parts Monday and get the machine back to the house so I can clean it up and play with it a bit. I will try to take more pictures. The machine needs some tlc...so I look forward to learning all I can here on the site.
Points can usually be made to work with a little filing or sanding with fine emery cloth. Even badly pitted ones can be made to work for a time. Just make sure they are nice and clean on the contacts after sanding/filing them. See if there is a tag on the distributor, a good parts guy should be able to locate the points from that.
Kshansen is right, I usually use a screw driver to 'scratch' the points, now the gap has to be set as well, about the thickness of a matchbook cover was always the guide. A little oil in the cylinders is a good idea, a starter shop should be able to check out your starter for $30 pesos. Coil has one wire that heads to the points, put a test light on it to the ground, when you crank the engine it should blink. Make sure you get a coil with an 'internal ballast resistor' if your machine does not have one installed. Yes, the case is a 12V system If the starter is drawing too much current, it'll make the spark very weak. Often, starters get over cranked and burn up in the older machines. I have the same Case and think its fantastic.
The points have gotten hot. I think that they are shorted out.
They're supposed to get warm; they're passing something like 30-40 watts thru those little contacts. Do you have a dwell meter? 4 cylinder engine should be around 50 degrees of dwell, which is usually about .016" point gap. If you're lone wolfing this, nobody else to help, rig up a wire from the positive battery post that you can touch to the solenoid to crank the engine while you observe the distributor. Key in the run position. If you're wondering if I have grey hair, yes, I do. Electronic ignitions were just coming into the market when I was in trade school 40 years ago. I can diagnose a Kettering ignition in my sleep....
I will have to find my dwell meter...it has been soooo long. That and the timing light, compression tester are all together....somewhere.... Book said .018 to .021 so I set it with a .020 feeler gauge and was getting nothing. Some of the plastic had melted and was balled up on the bottom when I took them out. One of the plug wires came apart when I was checking them so I'll pick up a set of those as well. Hoping that Napa or someone has a set on Monday so I can run out and give it a whirl. I guess I better go through the sheds looking for the old tools.
Well if you want to look through the NAPA Echlin Catalog here's a link to it in PDF format: http://www.napaechlin.com/upload/NAPAEchlin2/Documents/ECH_NA141_HQr.pdf Might be able to narrow it down to a few possibilities. The points (contact sets) start on catalog page 112, in the PDF file that is page 162 and it goes for about eight pages, some picture are better than others.Best bet would be to make note of the ones that look close to your's but also take the old ones in to match up. The melted plastic, assuming that is the rubbing block, sounds like key might have been left on with engine not running. They will get real hot fast if they are closed. Had an old Chevy for a lot back in the early 1960's forgot and left key on over night went to try to start it next morning opened hood and found a mess of fine wire all over the place. What had happened was the points were closed with key on and as things got hot the coil Bakelite top broke and all the wires cam right out of the coil! Make sure one side of the coil has a hot wire going to it with key on and the other small terminal goes to the terminal on the distribute and connect to the points.
Wrecked a coil like that, stalled during warmup and was left not running for quite a while, coil was too hot to touch and had a weak spark afterwards. Luckily parts are cheaper than replacing a engine control module.
If ethanol gasoline was in it when parked, it is probably completely gummed up, even if it was only run 20 seconds.
I have the gas motor CK and have always bought tune up parts at the local supplier. Autozone only does cars and small trucks. If I wasn't stuck on this plane, I'd go out and see if I had some part numbers for you. I'd drain the gas and put in some fresh stuff. I wouldn't use ether on a motor that's been sitting that long unless you've given it the mystery oil treatment. How much gas was in the tank all those years? If it wasn't full you may have some rust to deal with that can clog up the exit to the sediment bowl on the bottom of the tank. There is a shutoff on the fuel bowl so you can pull it off and clean it with gas in the tank. The bowl should fill quickly when you reopen the valve. If it just trickles in, you have an issue. You can blow some air back as a temporary fix but it will clog again when it is the most inconvenient time so keep that in mind. If you have new points, condenser, cap, rotor, and wires and fresh gas you should be all set - as long as the points are sparking. I can't tell if that thing has a windshield or not but if not you can pull the cap off the air intake and use your hand to choke it from the cab while cranking if it doesn't have a working choke cable. That should get it to suck some fuel if it isn't all gunked solid. Put some Mobil hi test in there and some lucas injector cleaner. That motor was designed for leaded gas so a little of that lead substitute wouldn't hurt either. I use about half what they recommend on the label. Brakes are over rated.
P.O. said it would never hold gas in tank. Don't think he realized it has a shut off. So tank was empty other than some residue. Put fresh premium fuel in with no ethenol. Hopeful I can get it in one more trip (30 minutes away). I didn't bring points home after last outing.
Jim ..........Seafoam fuel treatment is some good stuff to add to the fuel i use it on a lot of stuff and have heard nothing but good stuff about it ......One guy i know said his snowblower started acting up and he had to run it on half choke and didnt have time to pull the carb and clean it so he added seafoam and to his suprise it cleaned it out for him he was able to run it without any choke just by running it a few times with the seafoam .............If you get her fired up without cleaning the carb you might want to add some of this and let it run threw the carb while its running to clean it out.......... Also here is a great source for parts new and used and he will ship to you his name is Dale..........his website is www.e-backhoeparts.com.......his phone # 765-378-3396..........This guy is also very knowledgeable about these old girls and he is awesome to share the info with people......... Good luck with her let us know how it comes out.............
I can also recommend Dale for parts and information. He put together a bunch of stuff I needed for my 580CK project and was very easy to deal with. If he doesn't have it in stock, he is able to get it for you. I also appreciated his knowledge of these old tractors which made sure I got the parts needed. I'm hoping to get back to my project in the near future and will be adding to the previous thread which covered the tear down. These old tractors are relatively simple and easy to work on. A Service Manual and Parts book are worth getting as they will help you with repairs and what bits and pieces are involved.
After the initial issues with ethanol, mine is running fine on the E10 or E15 whatever they call it. Yes, Napa indeed had points / Condenser / coil The one issue I have is something to do with the distributor shaft seal, after sitting a long while, (fuel shut off as always) it'll start and run fine for about an hour, then it'll pick up a miss and a sputter, I'll find the distributor cap filled with moisture, I think its coming up from the crankcase. Wipe it out with a paper towel and its all happy for the rest of the job.
eventually, the shutoff may not shut completely off or leak past the seat so that may need to be replaced. Mine is original and still works fine but i've had to replace them on other machines. I shut it off every time because mine will leak gas out of the carb if I don't. I use that Star-Tron Enzyme fuel treatment in everything that I put gas in from a can or anything that sits around very long. It works great and keeps gas fresh for up to two years. I've never had an issue as long as I've used it - even with the ethanol.
Thanks to Fast_st for the note on the internal ballast resistor. Autozone sold me one that did NOT have it. Went to NAPA today and bought everything, points, condenser, cap, rotor, wires, and a new resistor included coil. After installing everything and setting points AND jumping it with the Dodge it fired right up! Ran it for 15 - 20 minutes and worked all of the hydrolics. One loader cyl is leaking under pressure. I was able to pick up the front end with the bucket, then pick up the rear end with the backhoe. Unfortunately...I was not able to load it and bring it home yet. went to drive it out of the barn and had NO steering. When I picked up the front end the wheels could be moved manually from side to side. Thought about trying it, then a vision of the wheels turning to the side while half on the trailer and having no brakes. Thought I would just come home and have supper with the wife and kids and check with you guys about possible issues. Steering wheel turns round and round with no effect on anything even with the wheels off the ground (o.k. they moved ever so slightly but it was like trying to air up a tire with a hole in the sidewall.) What do you think I need to do? Everything seemed to be connected, no obvious leaks in the steering hyd.
Check the oil level in the steering pump, located on the right front of the engine as seen from the drivers seat. You may need to change both the filter and the hydraulic oil in the pump depending on its condition. Once running again, check the level and add as necessary until full. Xpack has some good pictures of his when he changed it. Yours may just be low and that is a good place to start.
Right in front of the distributor, just below the alternator is the power steering pump, add some oil, 10w30/40 etc hydraulic oil, anything works well If its empty, it'll take a full quart of fluid, Mine leaks at the rams so I keep a container of motor oil sitting atop the pump, fill it up to the top and that'll give you enough to get things moving, Cylinder seal kits are easy to replace with a bit of help and some big sockets. I would suggest you purchase the OTC pin spanner tool #1266 its the tool you need, along with a 3/4 drive breaker bar to pull the packings off the cylinders. Don't use a punch in the holes, it just makes a mess in a hurry. Seal kits are available aftermarket and through Case parts. The bear is the big square nylon o-ring, that is a warm weather job, it doesn't play nice when its cold out. A piece of wooden closet rod and a strong thumb are the tools you need to smash it back in place.
If you are going to reseal any hydraulic cylinders an "O" ring tool is an absolute time and temper saver. Several vendors sell them . Here is a link to one of them. ----------> https://www.autohaulersupply.com/ca...it-installation-tool-2-to-3-rod-size-5148.php
Hmm, interesting tool, for the giant square one I'd normally warm it up, push it up from the bottom, **** it sideways with my thumb and press the gland down on the closet rod, squeezing the seal into the groove, that tool does seem that it could be a time saver except I'm all sealed up now
Thanks men, I thought about oil levels, but didn't know the machine well enough to know what to check and where. Maybe I can get it home this week after all. When I shut it off last night I attempted to restart but it again would not crank very fast and would not start. Like the battery is weak, but it is a brand new battery from NAPA. I might have to pull that starter and clean it up/check the brushes, etc.
Sometimes the front transmission seal will leak a bit and put some oil into the flywheel housing, check your starter for oily brushes, if they're oily wash it out with brake cleaner and or contact cleaner, and pull the drain plug on the bottom of the flywheel housing, Mine sometimes has a quart or two of oil in it, keep the flywheel from rusting I suppose
Jim ...............I run regular hyd oil in mine but im sure the 10-30 will do the job .........here is a pic of the pump with the resevoir tank removed after i changed the filter ......it is located in front of the starter ...........
If you plan on keeping it, you should also plan on investing in a service manual. It's the most important tool you will need. These machines are pretty simple compared to newer ones. You can often diagnose a problem like the steering by just following the hoses back to their source - the pump with a dipstick in the cap. Glad you got it started. Does it have the original generator or has it been converted to an alternator?
Thanks again men, I took hyd fluid and filled the reseviour and it worked. Jump started it and attempted to load on the trailer. It died half way on. Tried again with the same results. Each time having to pull out from under it and get the truck back far enough to jump it again. Trailer was too tall and I could not get it loaded. I will try again with a smaller trailer later in the week. I did buy the electronic version of the manual and have printed out a few sections which helped me with your advise to get it running. I need to get it home where I can take off the starter and clean it up and change all the filters, etc. I think I am going to have to rebuild the carb too. It ran so good the other day, then today it would die every few minutes and when I got the front wheels up on the trailer. When I left it this evening I think the float was stuck open as their was gas dripping out of the carb on the air intake side. It has been converted to an alternator and it looks like it isn't too old. The shuttle shifter is opposite the throttle The gear shift is in front of the seat. There is another shifter to the right of that (high/low I assume?) Then there is a pedal under the two brake pedals (doesn't do anything that I can tell) what is it supposed to be? Can't find a parking brake anywhere. Brake pedals do seem to work but need adjustment. I had to stand on them to get them to do anything at all.
More gas in the tank! Its a gravity fed system with the feed in the front of the tank, If you're climbing a hill with less than 5 gallons in the tank, you run out of gas in a hurry. To the right of the brakes, you'll have a foot throttle, same side further back should be the parking brake engagement, its back near or behind the range selector, step on brakes and lift up to engage the ratchet, when you hit the brakes it drops. Do your climbing in 1st gear, should be cast into the transmission something like S 1 3 2 4 S on mine was some kind of start lockout switch, had to press it to the left to engage the starter, someone fixed it with a wire nut. The other mod I did was cutting in a filter and shut off next to the carb. About four inches of tube coming from the carb to a filter. I found the pleated paper ones Fram G3 style worked until it got a drop of water, the water would soak the paper and stop the fuel flow then I'd have to blow it out and it'd work again. I changed to one of the cleanable glass filters, Dorman 55241 (napa) it stops all the little bits that get past the sediment bowl. I also added a lawnmower fuel shut off as several times, even after a carb rebuild, 10 gallons of gas would dissapear in a week.
If you have a Hi/Low range selector, you have the manual shuttle. The pedal in question may be a differential lock. Owning one of these is a lot of fun and will make you a better mechanic with all the experience it will give you. If you aren't running out of gas from not having enough in the tank, you may be running out of gas from sediment in the tank clogging things up as you tilt the tank. How does the sediment bowl look? Nice and clean? I've found you can start the machine with the fuel shut off and then turn the gas on after she fires up and that stops the carb drip - until you shut it off. Use the fuel shut off when you park it.
Jim.............Its like Grady said about your shuttle it sounds like yours is a mechanical shuttle and i think that is what gradys is mine is the power shuttle so some things are different between ours hope i didnt give you the wrong stuff about the shuttle i thought yours was a power shuttle and im not sure how the mechanical shuttle works as far as the oil ect...grady can probably tell you........... Sure sounds like crud in the tank maybe you could get her running long enough to use the backhoe to shove it up on the trailer ?????????? good luck when you can post some pics of the different controls (shifters,pedals,ect......and we can help identify what they do)
Tried again, but no success. Started right up this morning without a jump and I thought I was going to succeed in loading and bringing her home, but, to no avail. Tried forward onto trailer, but the weight of the backhoe lifted the tires off of the trailer and made me nervious. Turned it around to back it on and the bottom of the backhoe hit the trailer so forward to raise my ramps to clear the trailer, then it died. Had to jump it but got it going again. Rear tires wouldn't fit between fenders so I thought, no problem, I will drive over them (6" heavy steel fenders). once the one tire hit the fender, the other tire just spun on the steel deck, then died again and wouldn't start back up. Pulled the carb and picked up a rebuild kit. I tried pulling the bowl (had an eighth inch of grey slime in the bottom) and shooting some carb cleaner in the inlet port. I got all kinds of trash (sand and dirt) out of that port so I am convinced I need to just rebuild it and put it back on fresh with a new fuel filter. Maybe tomorrow... Also, The settling bowl has been removed and replaced with a simple shut off valve. Only fuel filter is a cheap see through one like the ones on a lawn mower. Bought a larger version but same thing until I can figure out what I need to put it back right. OR, Maybe that will work like it is.... Wish I had known that little pedal was a diff lock, I might have gotten it on before it died...I don't get reception out there so I couldn't check in while there. Definitely a manual shuttle with high/low lever.
yeah, I'm betting that fuel filter is clogged, snag one of the glass ones, they work pretty well and you can clean it by unscrewing it and blowing it out with carb cleaner. Sometimes you can block up the tail of the trailer, but don't block it too tight as you won't be able to get the blocks out once you're loaded, 3 inch air gap usually works good for controlling the trailer. Sometimes I'd use my spare. When mine is climbing up the beavertail, I go super slow, yes the front wheels just float on up, make sure the bucket is pulled in tight.
I'd go back to the original set up with the glass bowl. They catch a ton of stuff - or you can buy a bunch of those cheap filters and change it every time it clogs - which may be quite often. Major PITA. If you want to add another filter downstream from the glass bowl for the fine stuff, that's an option but mine has never needed one. I think you may be thankful that you didn't know about the diff. lock. If your rear tires are still on the ramps while you are trying to climb over the fenders with the front tires, you may find out how easy it is to tip one of these things over. The front wheels get pretty light without trying to climb another obstacle at the same time. What about getting it off? I use a trailer that is big enough and has a little wiggle room. If one back tire gets more traction than the other, the front end of the whole machine can move to one side in a hurry. It's the same thing that happens when you can steer in a tight spot by using the individual brake pedals. I've seen people without a lot of seat time tip a machine over and it's not just embarrassing and expensive - it can easily kill you. Safety first, I've had bigger backhoes moved with a ramp truck. They can winch the thing on and off safely and if you shop around you could probably get it done for 100 bucks or so if you aren't in the city. Like fast_st said, make sure the boom and bucket are all the way up and pulled in tight before you try to put it on a trailer.
:iagree
These machines can be light in the front end. When I travel up very step inclines, I always bring a boulder with me down to put back in the bucket for the uphill trip. It keeps the front wheels on the ground and using some temporary weight in your loader bucket will give you some control on the way onto and back off the trailer. As the guys here have mentioned already, an incident coming off the ramps or trailer can be fatal. Easy does it anyway to be safe.
I hear you on the tipping stuff over! I own a Lull 844C Telehandler and have had it on two wheels once and had two different employees nearly turn it over also. Nothin funny about 24,000 lbs rolling over on you. Called a roll back operator. I'm waiting on a response. He didn't sound to excited. Brought the starter home today. took it off and connected it to battery. Wouldn't turn. Took it apart and cleaned it up. Now it zings...I think I will have a starter and alternator place rebuild it. The shims on the back of the shaft fell to pieces when i opened it up.
Yep, I had that same paper filter, the G2, I removed the clamp from the fuel line at the carb, makes it easy to check fuel flow. Another issue I have now and again, some paint chips in the tank will cover the inlet field fix is to blow back through it, then when fuel gets low, lift the front with the bucket, remove and clean the inlet valve. I also put a tractor (nylon) shutoff valve right by the filter as that's the step side, much easier for flicking the fuel off. You might find that in a gravity system, the paper is a little restrictive.