hi guys i have a 2007 f350 dually diesel truck hauling a 22000 pound trailer. so the trailer empty is 6600lbs on it a case bobcat 8800 lbs and a case excavator 6900lbs on the truck sticker say gvwr say 13000 lbs added a picture of the setup thanks you
Too heavy?....for that truck maybe, I bet it pulls ok, but if you need to stop in a hurry because an animal or something else jumps out in front of you best of luck, keep those electric brakes in tip top shape at the very least....
GVWR would be the truck and whatever you can put in the cab and bed. Is there a GCWR (Gross Combined, which means pulling a trailer) rating on the sticker or in the owner's manual, or a towing rating? That's just to be legal, you're fine on weight as long as the trailer brakes are in proper working order. I pulled a three axle gooseneck behind my 97 Dodge 350 all the time, 20,000 on the deck with no worries. Did need to put it in low range a couple times at stop signs on steep hills, all part of the fun.
yes pull ok stop is ok also only thing im worry is the green guys here in quebec lol
brake are okay machine and trailer is brand new. gcwr is 26000 so i guest im overweight truck is 8000 and 22000 trailer
Electric brakes et all....my beef with the 20k trialers behind a pick up "You also have to steer it". You may have a big honkin tuned cummins, you may duals, you might have brand new electric brakes, but you do have to lead that trailer around curves, and when the stuff hits the fan, needing other than just standing on the brakes, can your truck do the job ? (swerve to avoid) Back to the O.P.....I don't know, but here in Pa, we are getting rumors of ticketing for not enough sticker on truck windshield....truck weight class would have to be for the whole set-up (22k trailer + 8k truck) so probably 30k ? As a "combination". FWIW I have asked (2) notaries and they don't know, and the DOT had to go ask (put me on hold) and the answer wasn't too clear. And then there's the second part of your question (dealing with legal matters) Even with enough stickers for weight class, will the mounties stop you for more weight than on the door sticker (manufactures max ratings) ?
This was more or less ignored in most states for a long time as long as you were licensed for more than the gross combined weight and were not obviously unsafe. I am sure liability reared it's ugly head at some point and now even though you bought the plate and paid for the weight, if you're over the manufacturer's rating, you get a ticket. That's IF the officer checks it. On the other hand if you get into an accident, even though it's no fault of your own, if you're loaded over some lawyer will get fat sucking your pockets dry. Bastids.
I always understood it as you plated the vehicle for the gvwr if you never pulled a trailer (dump truck or service truck) and then plated it for the gcwr if it was pulling a trailer, semi's and such? I think a lot of it comes down to the leo's interpretation of it if you are stopped.
With the weights you listed your trailer plus load is 22,300. I bet your truck weighs close to 8,000 which puts your gross weight at 30k. I personally wouldn't want that much weight on a one ton but people do it all the time. I see one tons with tandem dual goosenecks hauling full size backhoes all the time and that would put their gross weight real close to yours. I have been stopped by the DOT many times and they always make sure I am under registered weight, not over any axle weights, and not over tire ratings. I have never once had them question the manufacturers gross weight rating. I am sure they can look it up somewhere but I have never seen it listed on a trucks vin plate. It just lists GVWR which is what the vehicle itself can weigh and not what you can tow. If you register it high enough, and are not over axle or tire weights I doubt the law man would give you any flak but as mentioned if you were ever in an accident the fact that you were over GCWR will bite you in the butt. Not to mention just from a safety standpoint that is a lot of weight to stop.
I wish my GCW wasn't listed. Legal weight isn't much higher with a trailer. Since its on my door tag I can't haul any weight in my truck while pulling my trailer and excavator.
I just bought a 1997 gmc 3500hd (with the 19.5 tires) and as it was originaly sold as a cab/chassis, the body manuf removed the door sticker and applied the yellow tag behind the seat (had another truck same scenario) The tag simply reads "15,000 lbs gvw"
Thats something to think about. I was under the impression if factory sticker wasn't present they went by minimum numbers for the particular size truck. Something like a chain without markings. Sorry for hijacking. Thats my last post, promise.
I live close to a alot of amish and meninites. For the most part they are ok but they push things to the limit. Their is one that rents land by my dads farm he has a 30foot trailer that he hauls a big track bobcat on pulling it with a newer dodge 1/2ton. What was he thinking when he bought that pickup? One amish has a 3/4ton van pulls a trailer with a case TV380 on it they dont drive or own cars so they have drivers. I work part time across from a amish lumber yard. All the amish and alot of X amish buy from them very scary. Theirs alot of stuff that guys get away with every day ok but what if ? If you ask some one how it pulls or how it stops they will say ok i dont ask because i have been on that white knuckle ride before.
Another thing to consider is to make sure your insurance covers you for the combined weight you are pulling. There have been a number of log truckers here in MN that paid a second fine after being caught overweight because they were not insured for the gross they were carrying when overweight.
My personal opinion is yes that is too much weight for a F350. It may pull fine and it may stop ok with everything working in tip top shape but it's just too much weight for that size truck.
if DOT catches you YOU will be ticked, first trailer is overloaded and the truck towing cap is way exceeded be very careful here in NY you would be out of service in the blink of an eye
I hate to say this, but if you have to ask, then you already know better. I agree that the stopping & handling characteristics are the major factors at play here. No police / leo / state police / dmv will ever care about the size or power of your engine. They will care to the utmost about the safety of other motorists on the road. Any such reckless people should not be allowed to continue with a dangerous load, if caught, either. It is high time to consider being safe versus gambling on a one time trip to get it done. Often times, the spirit of the driver is in the right place, but the consequences easily out weigh the benefit. A truck should be thought of as a tool, not an excuse to prove how tough it is. That nagging "what-if" can become a real world reality & if all else failed, I'd rather find out I was in the right & not overloaded. Be careful with your trucking, often times you are gambling with more than you know you are. What are you willing to lose, just to tow an unsafe load??
Yair . . . A little off topic but I have to ask . . . . . Since the US system is geared around high horse power "pickups" towing trailers why don't these vehicles have a compressor, tank and trailer controls at least as an option . . . the manufacturers no doubt would get on board with proper brakes on trailers. I believe trucks over here that run six to seven litre engines probably will have a combined mass rating around 45000 to 50000 pounds and some in that class may even run full air . . . this last statement is just a guess on my part and some local folks may set me straight . . . I'm too slack to do my own research. (big grin) The point I make is that air brakes are not rocket science and if I had a big honking five hundred horse power dually I think it would be reassuring to have a trailer braked with air. I am in no way trying to knock pickups or be controversial . . . it is just a question from an old bloke who hates electric brakes. I have towed what we call "caravans" all my life and, I have to say, I was more comfortable with my well maintained what we call "over run" brakes than I have ever been with current crop of electrics . . . I would shudder to pull the loads you folks pull as part of your every day work with electric brakes. Cheers.
From what I gather regarding the air brakes, the handle added to the column for separate operation of the trailer brakes is one thing but the requirement for the truck brakes to also activate the trailer brakes with only one action by the driver is the snag .... there are some brake system hydraulic to air valves for ag uses, but valve is not intended for highway use (no DOT rating). Electric brake signal to trailer can operate a trailer hydraulic brake system (electric over hydraulic). This is why using a pickup gets a lot of concerns - because the trailer brakes being electric just dont have the reputation for stopping power. * Underlying all this Door Nameplate Ratings is a question: Wonder what values are used by the pickup truck manufacturers to establish the CGVW ratings? Is it pure engineering data (physics) or the encouraging push by the marketing department for numbers of higher magnitude?
Good point. I have a 1976 27500 LB truck with air brakes, and a "9 ton" triaxle trailer with electric brakes. These trailers are notorious for bad connections at the plug. My experience is that the controller must be correctly adjusted or braking will be unsatisfactory. An empty trailer will skid tires if you aren't adjusted light enough, a loaded trailer might put you into the trees if not heavy enough on the brakes. Lots of vigilance on the level, and very low gear on the steep down hills is critical. Willie
There is a new SAE rating J2807 that is supposed to "level" the playing field here in the US. I do think that it requires some more in depth testing and requirements to be met before the towing number can be slapped on a truck. I think its only a matter of time before they start getting air brake options on these pickups. I imagine a lawsuit might get things moving.
Some answers to the ratings may be found by reading about a SAE Standard J2807. This magazine explained the 2008 standards - various topics are covered - braking is from 20mph with no trailer brakes involved. http://www.automobilemag.com/news/sae-tow-ratings-finally-pass-sniff-test/ I excerpted these words from the article: The SAE towing committee purposely defined the scope of this standard not to include brake fade and durability aspects related to the tow vehicle such as the endurance of chassis, powertrain, suspension, and brake components. Other SAE standards and each manufacturer’s own internal requirements instead address these towing issues. I really wish electric brakes could be better at their assigned task.
There are electric over hydraulic setups that work well, but then the cost is much higher. In response to Scrub's question about air, I think it's a cost/portability/licensing issue. Money to install the system, air brake trailers being unuseable with non-air tow vehicles, and the fact that at least in my state you have to pass another test to be legal in an air brake vehicle. Probably have to pass new laws to accommodate mixed combinations.
Yair . . . Thanks lantraxco . I hear you about towing with a standard juicer . . . I have been known to jury rig a gasoline compressor. (Big grin) With the huge market in the US and a licencing/insurance/ownership system that encourages the use of huge pickups to do the work of proper trucks it seems strange (to an outsider) that there have not been more significant developments in regards to trailer braking systems. It must be said though that a pickup getting into trouble seems a relatively rare event and then mostly the result of overloading and driver error . . . how do authorities view brake lights coming on during long descents? Cheers.
HeavyEquipmentForums How lucky do you feel? What's the risk of killing someone worth to you? Do you want to have to face someone's wife/husband/child/etc and explain that you thought it would be safe and a good truck was too expensive and that's why they now have a dead/crippled significant other/parent/etc? Or stand up in court and try to explain why you shouldn't be liable for a few million in medical bills? Can it be done? Yes, and 98% of the rigs out there are safe and reliable. Thing is, s*** happens. Too big of a trailer is a very very good way for a minor oh s*** to turn into major damage. At the end of the day you've got 20+k lb behind a fairly light truck. Sure it can up hills at 75, but can it stop and control that load? Going downhill? Remember too that electric trailer brakes are not fail safe - it's very possible to loose the trailer brakes when you least expect it. Big difference too with how/who drives it. Does the driver take it slow and easy or drive like a sports car? Way too many folks these days seem to trend towards the later. Will they drive 55 or 65? Difference in energy and stopping distance with that extra 10 mph is about half again as much, yet folks are going faster and faster - physics is still the same. Potential DOT issues as mentioned. I would also expect that the life expectancy of a F350 towing that type of load is far lower than a true medium duty would be - might be cheaper up front (by a bit) but may very well cost longer with downtime and repairs.
There will always be people willing to take some shortcuts, or that think they're unable to afford the right tool for the job. On the flip side even with all the advances in big rig safety features and braking upgrades, they still build runaway ramps on long steep downgrades, and they still get used now and then. As you say, stuff happens... to which I would add: FAST!
As oceanobob and lantraxco mentioned, there is an electric over hydraulic option. I looked into this for our 24K rated gooseneck, and the change would cost me about $4,000. I will probably replace the current trailer with a new one that has the option. Our biggest problem with our electric brakes is the magnets wear out fairly quickly. Our pickups both have the integrated factory brake controllers (Fords), and these seem to take the adjustment problems of the add on brake controllers out of the equation. We do not exceed 30K gross with ours, and it handles things very well, but stopping distance is always on the back of ones mind. Folks without a truck driving background probably do not understand (at first anyway) how important it is to keep from heating brakes by controlling downhill speed via gearing down, and save the brakes for oh sh#t moments when one needs to stop unexpectedly. Having said that, we do things with modern pickups that we wouldn't have dreamt to do with pickups 30 years ago - they have certainly come along ways, including the price tag. A new 1 ton crew cab now costs twice what my first house did.
My opinion on this. I do similar stuff with a smaller pickup truck and a smaller trailer, but comparable in proportion. In general, it looks heavy, but not crazy. 1) If you have very steep downgrades, you may want to split the load 2) You need to test your electric brakes to make sure that they brake extremely well, do that throughout your trip 3) Drive slowly, do not exceed the speed limit 4) Go very easy on both brake and gas pedals, if you need to accelerate hard or brake hard you are driving wrong 5) Keep AMPLE following distance
Now you find yourself in europe from what I've heard, any trailer over 10k needs air brakes, makes sense, so there's a hydraulic to air valve, goes in the line from the master cyl and it regulates the air trailer brakes in tandem with the vehicle brakes. Even if you have a 30k trailer with electric brakes, you'd be happier with air, that much I'm certain of, probably cause they don't use crimp taps to make air connections. ... yet.
Yeah, use to see factory wiring on trailer brakes done with Scotchlocks.... some things are just wrong.
Still do! just rewired a 7x16 enclosed trailer and removed 16 scotchlocks, replaced the 16 ga wire with 12ga, sure cut the voltage drop to the magnets.
Jesus...
The Jagoff who owned my international before me used Scotchlocks and speaker wire to wire up the brake controller and lights. I'd like to make him eat every inch of that wiring for the headaches it has given me. Big difference between northern and southern conditions. Who ever invented those blasted things is not on my favorites list by any means.
Yeah, the 16 scotchlocks were just for the brakes, wrapped perfectly in butyl tape as to catch all the sand and let it pack around the connectors. I do love dual wall heat shrink for sealing stuff up snug
So here in Alberta iv'e checked into the local laws regarding weights that can be pulled with a 1 ton pickup. Basically I have figured out with minimal help from DOT that you have to be under the tire rating on truck and trailer, that's all that is required. DOT didn't want to offer any guaranteed info on weather or not the trucks gvwr mattered at all. Also I looked into the owners manual for our 2007 f350 that we pull a 36 plus 5 foot beaver tail triple axle gooseneck with, and if you go to a f450 or 550 the only way it is listed for more weight hauling capability is if it has lower gears....So they are not taking into consideration brakes or suspension here, just gear ratio! I know for a fact the brake pads and leaf springs are heavier in a 550 vs a 350, but it doesn't seem like its the deciding factor even for the manufacturer. So, as long as your trailer brakes are in good working order, truck brakes too, then don't overload the tire ratings and you are good to go provided you know how to drive such a rig down the road safely. Basically the trailer brakes are required to stop the weight that is on the trailer minus the hitch weight and the truck is responsible for itself. Does a highway tractor trailer have sufficient brakes on the tractor alone with a massive 345 cat excavator on it if all trailer brakes fail to operate? Im really not sure that it does, because it seems this is what some of you are concerned about on the f350 with big load behind. Maybe someone else with more knowledge here can chime in when it comes to the highway tractor trailer safety margins???
With a tractor-trailer the weight distribution is totally different. I hate typing, so I stole this post I made from another thread: Another difference most people don't consider: The rig in question is an 8-10,000 trailer, 24,000 load, and a 6-8,000 p'up, so, 38-42,000 lbs gross. Hooked up and loaded, the four wheels, (not tires) of the p'up might be carrying 12,000 lbs, and the trailer is carrying 26-30,000. A tractor-trailer loaded to the fed formula weighs 80,000 lbs. 46,000 on the six wheels of the tractor, and 34,000 on the trailer. Ok, a couple of scenarios: Break one wire and lose trailer brakes, 42,000 lbs being stopped by 4 brakes designed for 12,000 lbs, over 300% overload. or Two or more things go wrong, and you lose trailer brakes, 80,000 being stopped by 6 brakes designed for 50,000 lbs, 60% overload A sudden change of direction is needed, 12,000 lbs trying to control 30,000 lbs or 46,000 trying to control 34,000 Okay end of self-plagiarization. As far as safety margins, break one wire, or have one scotchlock come loose on electrics = no trailer brakes On the air system, two or more unrelated things have to go wrong to get no trailer brakes.
Precisely. Its amazing how many people think that electric trailer brakes are a substitute for air brakes not to mention the weight distribution. Many people pulling a gooseneck put the load right over the trailer axles trying to keep the truck lighter to avoid fines or make it ride better. The other factor commonly overlooked is engine braking. these pickups may have exhaust brakes, but I'd wager a guess they are nowhere near the brake hp as a true jake brake especially when comparing 7 liters to 15 liters.
Well, they are a substitute but not a good one, I'd be glad to see class 3 trucks and above have an option for air trailer brakes. My load balancing isn't scientific, its not often I'll run over the scales but when loading up something new, I'll make sure there's a good amount of weight on the drive axles from the gooseneck hitch. Electric brakes in top shape are a lot better than no brakes at all, keeping them in top shape is a fair bit of work.
ok, understood that the tractor trailer set-up is better designed for the weight, but that doesn't mean these guys don't overload them anyways and roll on down the highway, I checked on weight of a 345 cat hoe, but closest model it gave me was a 349, it weighs in at 117,500 lbs. And I know a jeep with the trailer may be used for something like this, but u cannot tell me that these guys with the highway tractors aren't pushing things right to the limits or well beyond, a lot of em aren't any smarter than guys in pickup trucks. there are some good drivers out there, and then there are some not so good.... besides, these goosenecks are being manufactured with 10,000 lb axles, many have 3 10's under them, why are they allowed to make these with electric brakes???? they are rated for this weight are they not???? they come with a ball on the goose, almost never see them at the dealer with a pin???? obviously they have been deemed safe for operation with 3 10's under an 8000lb trailer and putting 4000 lbs hitch weight to the truck u can haul 26000 on this trailer that came with a ball hitch.
240gordy, yep you're 'allowed' to have a 30k trailer with electric brakes and 2x 10k electric brake axles. Its perfectly legal, but the overall issue is the heat rejection capacity of the entire braking system. When electric brakes get hot, they just don't grip as well, the magnets get a bit weaker. Yes, legal, but we're pondering better options, hydraulic or air actuation. The rotors on my F550 are damned beefy and are small in weight when compared to brakes from a class 8 truck. Its almost as if the electric brakes meet the minimums when 100% brand new and in tip top shape where big truck brakes meet the minimums right down to the wear grooves, every time.
Yep, legally they are deemed safe and as long as everything is maintained in good order and the driver is conscientious and aware of the limitations there should be no problems. I think the point people are making is there are just so many variables and things that can go wrong on these setups that they are inherently less safe than the full sized trucks. Yes, there are cases where the big rigs get in trouble, every day, but the industry is so regulated from birth to end that mechanically they are more robust and less likely to have a catastrophic failure. To me it's a matter of safety margins. When I had a gooseneck equipment trailer behind my Dodge dually, the placement of the hitch was critical to get the hitch weight I wanted for good traction and braking but not overload the front axle. Extended cab 4X4 with the diesel, it was already nose heavy. Load placement was fussy, for me at least, the trailer was plenty long but getting enough weight on the hitch and not going over on axle weight at the scale took some practice. Sometimes hauling machines you really can't get it perfect because the machine runs out of deck space to move. There were a couple times I had an issue with the electric brakes, thank God that Dodge was built with plenty of stopping power. One corroded connector in the trailer plug, in my case the ground, and I lost brakes and lights. Got that squared away in jig time. Oh, and I think I mentioned this, there may be exceptions but none of the electric brakes I know of work backing up, same with surge brakes. You run out of power or traction on a hill (I did more than once, off road) and it may be a rodeo backing down. So you pays your money and you takes your chances, try to keep it legal, keep it maintained, and be aware at all times of your loading and what can go wrong, you'll probably be fine.
Most of the dexter brakes will swing front/back but they're slow on backing up, takes a half turn of the wheel to get any action. The new tekonsha controllers have some diagnostics and helped me spot that I'd lost brakes on 1 wheel by a 25% reduction in current draw, total rewire fixed it.
Thing to remember is that electric brakes are not fail safe. Anything goes wrong and you have no brakes, possibly with no warning. Loose wire, cut wire, connector is loose, etc etc. Air brakes you have the emergency system which will apply the brakes in the worse case scenario. Now, you can still overheat the brakes being an idiot, or have them so far out of adjustment to not apply, but it's going to give you much more warning and is less likely. Electrics it may work fine one second and not at all the next. Weight distribution as mentioned. Also how heavy duty the components are.
I have pulled loads like that with my F-550. I broke the rear hitch out of my truck. I also have a 10 ton goose neck trailer, I pull around here and there with what ever I can cram on it. I noticed that the trailer was popping a little. I looked at the metal plate on the bed of my truck that sits on top of my goose neck ball. I noticed that there was a weld that was free floating from the base channel under it. I got to looking real close. I went under the truck and inspected the frame work and the channel that holds the ball. The ball moves freely on a shaft that is inside of a heavy duty sleeve which is welded to the cross channels. The entire sleeve was broken at the welds. The metal plate on top was welded over the sleeve I guess as insurance. 4 fat welds, 3 broken. The ball was ready to cut loose from the truck frame work. These guys that make steel beds and hitch connections do not make them to hold and work with the weights that can be stuffed on the trailers. It is all inferior and if you pull loads like that much you can bet something will cut loose. Long highway drives on rough roads that beat your rig up will surely help you understand that, you cant just hook it up and forget. You need to inspect the hitches, couplings, welds, tires, at least every day. Some times again while on the road depending upon conditions. Just overload your tongue by a 3 or 5 thousand and you will see what I am talking about that much faster. Mine is rated for a 6000 lb tongue load, looking at your pic, I bet you are close to or over max... Good luck.
I just recently snapped a leaf spring on one of my trailers and upon flipping it over to inspect the hardware a complete rebuild was needed. The springs had sagged 2"s, and the hardware that holds them in place was worn out.