I want opinions on fuels I have a customer who got couple kubota skidsteers and he said dealer told him no more offroad fuel. My guess was cause offroad fuel has sulfur in it and with the after treatment system getting so hot it turns to acid and destroys components in after treatment system.
"Off Road" fuel has been dead for years. The Dyed stuff is the same ULSD that you get out of the pump at the Mini Mart. The Dye denotes that it's not taxed. That's it.
Yep. Hell they dye it from the same tank as the clear fuel. It’s dye and paperwork. That’s it.
If the dye is only thing that's making the difference then y would dealers say not to use it?
Not a very knowledgable dealer? It's the same fuel.
Agreed. It's always been the same fuel, just red dye to indicate no highway tax applied at purchase. But if the DOT man finds red fuel in that road truck, yeah, he'll really tax ya then.
Yes but on road diesel is low sulfur diesel. Depending on where u search it will say offroad diesel has more sulfur witch at those high temps would turn to acid I could be wrong but that was only reason I could see dealer saying this. Unless like u guys said they dont know what they r saying.
Your dealer is sadly misinformed. (My bolding) From the EPA … From 2007 to 2014, low sulfur diesel fuel (specified at 500 ppm) and ULSD fuel was phased in for nonroad, locomotive, and marine (NRLM) diesel fuel. After 2014 , EPA’s diesel standards require that: All nonroad, locomotive, and marine (NRLM) diesel fuel must be ULSD; and All NRLM engines and equipment must use this fuel (with some exceptions for older locomotive and marine engines). See here : https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-and-rulemakings#nonroad-diesel
Awesome info thank you
There may be one exception... Any fuel that was in old storage tanks from prior to 2014 "May" be high sulfur. Local Craig's list has several old tanks offered with fuel in them. If there's no algae, dirt or water, it may be high sulfur… best to use it for bonfire starting.
You beat me to it hosspuller, ULSD is the EPA standard for "ALL" diesel fuel now days.
They don’t know what they are talking about. The dye is the only difference now. All of the equipment I service is run on off-road diesel and at this point 98% is Tier 4. The issues we see with fuel are pretty much contaminated fuel, and old fuel growing algae in it. Customers who supply fresh quality fuel don’t have these issues.
Just as a matter of interest, what is your price difference between on road and off road? Over here we purchase fuel at general on road price and are able to claim back a set rate per litre... around 30% for off road use. Trucks over 4.5 tonne gvm are able to claim around 11% for on use on public roads.
AFAIK the dye was the ONLY difference going right back in time to when JC played for Jerusalem United. The fuel all came out of the same bulk tank at the refinery/supplier and the dye was added to it at the point of dispatch to indicate that no tax had been paid on it, and therefore that it was intended ONLY for use in off-road equipment. But the basic fuel was always the same.
It should be about 36 or 37cents a gallon compared to heavy highway tax I never seem to match the volume with the fuel supplier where I see more than about 15 cents I think they just stick it to us cause they can
In South Africa bulk diesel purchase price per liter varies. But then farmers may claim I think 30% back and construction/mining something like 25%.
Offroad diesel should all be ULSD now. Tier 4f isn't going anywhere (sadly).
I've never had a problem with marked diesel, but have had issues with marked gasoline. Dye separated out of the gas and eventually filled the float bowl of my generator with useless red juice. My neighbor had been running marked (farm) gas in his late model low mile Toyota pickup, clogged up his catalytic converter in short order, Toyota dealer said the only low mile plugged cats they've seen where all running marked gasoline. Maybe the guys are getting a little generous with the dye? Around here marked diesel isn't much cheaper than clear if your not buying copious amounts.
I remember back in the 60's my grandpa has drums of farm gasoline to run in his two Ford 8N tractors. I don't know if it was dyed or not, but I haven't heard of farm gas in 50 years or so, surprised they still have it in Canada.
Used to be referred to as purple gas.
We had a few incidents of this too and I believe the outcome was too much dye
Still easy to get. Most gas stations have a pump. Used for boats, lawn mowers, chain saws etc etc Hardly worth buying unless you use a lot as not a big difference in price. I find it's more of a hassle keeping track of which container it's in so it doesn't end up in my truck than it's worth for the savings. d.d.
You can fish for bass, cut your grass and drink that purple gas ~ Corb Lund
No argument here on the two being different. Theoretically, they are the same fuel. I would say the one watch out on red diesel is that it might not turnover nearly as much as the on road diesel. There is only one fuel station in my town that sells red diesel and I don't think they sell a lot of it. They might be filling their on road storage tanks every week, but go much longer between refills of their red diesel. The first time I ever bought red diesel from them, it fouled the fuel filter in my skid steer within 30 mins of filling it. It soured me on it for a while, but I haven't had any problems with it since. Seems like it is usually about 0.40/gal cheaper.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dyes " Fuel dye in North America In the United States of America , the Environmental Protection Agency mandates use of a red dye to identify high-sulfur fuels for off-road use." But then, wiki is wrong on lots of stuff.
When was the Wiki written?
Yes, it too will give way. To tier 5. School busses and fire trucks can use red fuel on road.
I don't know if dyed fuel relates to higher Sulphur fuel anymore or just means the fuel isn't taxed.
As my previous post... The EPA doesn't allow any diesel except ULSD, Road or Off-road since 2014 in the USA. So the only difference is dye & taxes $ $ $ $ $ $ This means any diesel made and sold since 2014 is ULSD.
I could be wrong but I believe up here in the north during the winter months all diesel fuel gets cut with k-1? To help keep the fuel from gelling. Back when I was at the stealership we had a tier4i machine with horrible regen issues and after a fashion and a fuel test it was found that the fuel wasn’t burning hot enough to allow the machine to properly regen. The company only had the one tier 4 machine so it was the only one affected.
Interesting thoughts. K1 kerosene has 0.04 percent sulfur (ASTM D 3699-90) ULSD is regulated to be 15 parts per million max. To convert from ppm to percent, divide the ppm by 10,000 15/10,000 = 0.0015 % Sulfur. Looks like ULSD is much lower than K1 Kerosene. Likely K1's 26 times greater sulfur poisoned the T4 emission stuff. To protect Tier 4 engines, I would use D1 not Kerosene in Winter. I wonder if ULSD would be okay in unvented Kerosene heaters ?
Further reading … There is such a beast as ULS Kerosene … It's NOT K1 Kerosene Energy Petroleum Company offers K1 kerosene (400ppm max sulfur). K1 kerosene (conforming to ASTM D 3699 Specifications), which has a maximum sulfur content of 400ppm, is used primarily for space heating. Ultra-low sulfur kerosene (15ppm max sulfur) is also available in limited quantities for blending with ULSD to improve cold flow properties during frigid temperatures. http://www.energypetroleum.com/kerosene.html
I’m not 100% sure it’s k-1 but I’ve heard plenty of talk about a winter blend.
Off Road fuel and the difference in price from On Road depends on the State, County and City it's delivered in as all those entities tack on taxes. Of course Fed taxes are all the same. Here in Central AL I can save around $.27 a gallon having red fuel delivered to our yard compared to buying green fuel at the pump. We have a 500 gal off-road tank so we save around $135 per 500 gal, which isn't a great amount of cash but when you add the convenience of fueling up your slip tank at the yard daily the savings start to add up.
During the transition, and for some time after, the old fuel was sold as red dyed off road. That was a while ago. Winter blend is still ULSD as far as I know. WI has some of the higher fuel taxes, $.309/gal for state tax, on top of $.184/gal for gasoline, and $.244 for diesel, for a total of $.553/gal diesel tax. The offroad diesel at a pump is usually between $.50 and $.25 cheaper than taxed fuel, so the retailer is charging more for the offroad, but it's a lower volume sale too. Just like a K1 pump will be much higher.
Interesting, the ULSD distributed in Alaska is sold without dye. Off-road fuel is clear. The explanation I heard is there is not enough storage to keep it separate. With the new IMO standards, even the marine industry has switched to 15ppm ULSD, which will make fuel prices on the coast rise as we head into 2020. Also, I was under the impression that all the diesel #2 and diesel #1/ Jet-A/ home heat oil was ULSD (less than 15 ppm sulfur). But, I know two distributors in SE Alaska selling #1 home heat oil with 350 ppm sulfur. I didn't think you could source that from a North American rack. Turns out, much of the fuel being distributed in SE is Alaska is coming from the Singapore Rack.
350ppm sulphur diesel is pretty much the same as what comes out of the refineries in Trinidad in the Caribbean. If the fuel was produced from Venezuelan crude the sulphur content would likely be 1500-2200ppm.
I never heard of those racks. Could you explain please ?
It a generic term. i.e. the "rack" at the refinery where you pull up your fuel truck, rail car, cargo ship, etc. and get a load. Think a rack of hoses where you get product.
On off road fuel the bulk dealers here can still can sell diesel with no Bio in it. You have to ask or you get the bio mix. The winter blend is normally 60/40 mix, #2/#1. All road fuel still has to have the bio percentage in it. We use all non bio. It can sit in the bulk tank or the machine for 20 years and still be good. Bio is **** in no time.
For sure. B10 will make a mess in a bulk tank or a saddle tank if it sits for long. It acts hydroscopic and collects moisture. Fortunately, it’s not currently distributed in Alaska or mandated.
Here is a tank on the genset set I'm working on that had about 130 gallons of fuel sitting in it for who knows how long. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only person who thinks bio is the biggest con job in any industry. I never got a subsidy if my business was bad or I made bad decisions. Why are we paying farmers to grow corn that has no use but to pollute our fuel stocks.
Why turn your food into fuel? I am VERY pro ag and I will make that statement. I think there are better options.