ISO vs. ASE Controls (I beleive the argument used to be John Deere vs. Cat controls) What's your preference? Why? Is there a difference in productivity?
good evening esobofh, we are a small company that started with TLB's Everyone got very good with the controls. when we expanded to bigger excavators, we stuck to ISO pattern even though they were SAE. the one excavator was easy to switch, just a control valve that we had to switch the lever on. One we had to switch some hoses, no big deal. It is alot easier to have the TLB and excavators to have all the same controls. Operators can switch back and forth between the units and feel comfortable. It also makes the guys in the trench feel easier when they know the operator is comfortable. As for productivity, I don't notice any difference. I'm sure I could dig as fast as anyone with the SAE pattern. Just my opinion. I think it is just a matter of preference.
I agree with biggrader. It is only a matter of preference, this is always a topic of conversation among operators and probably always will be. Operators say that the manufacturers should get together and decide on one pattern but each side (iso/sae) thinks the other sides pattern is absolutely ridiculous. Personally I am a deere pattern man and i refuse to learn the other way because I don't want the confusion of jumping from machine to machine with another mans life in my hands. I firmly beleive that it is better to invest the money in a pattern changer than the time in learning the other pattern.
I learned to dig on a bantam 166 and that machine had two longer sticks in the middle with 4 pedals on the floor. The right stick controlled the boom up and down and the left stick spun the house. When the company upgraded machines it was easy to adapt with the sae controls. When I got on the tlb's it was weird at first but I adapted to it, but I prefer the sae when digging with excavators. I dont need to think twice when I run iso on tlb's cause its natural now but for whatever reason I prefer and will stay with sae on excavators.
Here are a few threads that have discussed this topic - HeavyEquipmentForums HeavyEquipmentForums I prefer JD or "backhoe" controls.
Over my career I have run both styles,sometimes for the same employer with Cat excavators and John Deere backhoes.It was never a problem adjusting to either style and I didn't even think about it,it became routine for me. The problem seems to be when you stay with one style for a period of time there is a slight readjustment needed to become comfortable with the other one. I worked for one company that had the same equipment but had changed the backhoe to the Cat pattern,that threw me for a few minutes. It seems like the rubber tires was the trigger that put me in whatever mode I had to be in to make it work. I prefer the Cat configuration as it seems to be the predominant one in this area but I feel that the John Deere style is more "intuitive",that is to say that if a person with no experience on either style were to learn it from the beginning that the John Deere would be the easiest to become proficient on. I once applied for a job as an operator running the Cat configuration after running a Hitachi with the JD setup for several months,that was fun.They hired me anyway. Ron G
This has aways been a point of contention for me, although I have considerable experience on hoes I havent ever been able to switch from cat to john deere.I did it once when I went to work for a guy who was renowned for switching 215& 225 excavators to john deere and it took me a solid week to feel totally comfortable. I hated every minute of it,:Banghead for two years I worked there no problem, as soon as I left bennedetto and went back to petrillo to cat style same trouble for two days. case controls, bucyrus controls, dynahoe controls, drott controls no problem, john deere controls, big problem. even on backhoes I prefer case or dynahoe controls ointhead
A truly good operator can switch back and forth and never miss a beat. Swapping patterns on a backhoe or excavator is for rookies.
excuse me mr. ditchdigger, you are a operator so I am going to imagine you have a certain degree of inteligence. That being said, the statement you made about being a rookie is a completeley moronic, foolish and ignorant comment. I have more than 2 decades experience and will put my reputation up against yours or anybody arrogant enough to say something as stupid as your comment.
That's a pretty foolish comment. Possibly you were confusing an excavator with a $10.95 spade?????
If you can't switch from tlb control pattern to excavator style control pattern you may not be as good an operator as you think you are. I'm just sayin
This topic has been discussed in detail, as I stated above. Another thread on this topic that goes in the direction that this one is headed will be closed.
I have had guys apply for jobs that could only use TLB pattern on both the hoe and the excavator. They don't get hired because most of them aren't any damn good. I'm not changing the pattern on any machine to suit an inexperienced operator.
Its true mr. ditchdigger, I do think I am the best hoe operator to ever walk the planet, but the funny thing is there are a lot of people that will agree with me. besides my wife and daughter. that being said I met a lot of operators who can give me a run for my money and I am proud to know and learn from them also. I am man enough not to need to put someone else down to build myself up. my work speaks for itself because my heart is in every bucket I pull out of the ground and I thank god for the talent he blessed me with.
I'm not trying to knock anyone's talent. I do however firmly believe that a truly good operator can swap from one pattern to the other and be just as smooth and proficient on one as he is the other. All it takes is seat time. If you can operate one, you can operate the other.
That ISO/ASE thing is just another name for backhoe/excavator control pattern right? At work we share some equipment with the utilities dept. and their operator always switches the controls around. I can mix and match but everytime I get in I have to double check with slow movements before I get into a good pace.
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i would have to disable the pattern selector
Why? Disabling the pattern switcher is absurd. Let your operators use the pattern that they like the best so that they can be the most comfortable and productive. Its good to be able to use both patterns, but everyone is better at one over the other. With the pattern selector, switching patterns is almost no effort on anyone's part.
I don't think I am any better on one than the other. The change is done almost without thinking. Swapping patterns on the same machine is dangerous IMHO
At one time, I had a Case 580 with JD type controls. That was before I had any experience on an excavator with Cat type controls. Once I'd learned the Cat controls, I could jump from that hoe to an exacavator and never miss a beat. But (and I discussed this in the other threads cited above), for me to get from one excavator with Cat controls, onto another excavator with JD controls, took some transition time. It's because you really aren't thinking about what your hands are doing--it's all subconcious. So if that's true, a truly good operator should be able to switch patterns on the machine at coffee break, and again at lunchtime, and never miss a beat, right? From reading all your posts, I think you wouldn't agree with that, and your complaint is that there are guys who haven't bothered to master both patterns, and those guys are lesser operators than those who have mastered both patterns--not that any given individual operator should be able to switch patterns on the same machine without difficulty. Am I understanding that correctly? Which if I am understanding correctly, adds a different question to the ones in the first post, specifically, should an operator be required to know both patterns? We can all discuss that if you like, but let's all remain calm... So, to address all the questions on the table, I don't really prefer one pattern over the other, and I don't think I'm any more or less productive with one or the other, (once my hands figure out what they're doing.) As for whether an operator should be required to know both, I'd say it's an advantage, but now pattern switchers have made it so that it's no longer a requirement. And I'm all for pattern switchers, in that they add flexibilty to the machine. Now an employer can put an operator in the seat without worrying about which pattern they're best on. Being a good operator involves a whole lot more than just manipulating a certain set of levers...
to preface, i have been an operating engineer for 17 years. i have ran many combination hoes/tlb's, and many excavators. i can run a tlb with deere controls all morning and jump on an excavator with cat controls no sweat. i can also run a tlb with cat pilot joysticks. put me on an excavator with deere controls and i lose my mind. i just cant do it. i still think i am a decent operator, though.
most companies here use the backward pattern in excavators... so they can put in an incompetent backhoe driver....mostly southerners... I'm not talking about Dixie either... SOUTHER than Dixie deere pattern belongs in a rubber tire hoe cat pattern in an excavator it's plum simple to jump from a rubber tire to excavator with those patterns. It takes about half a day to get use to the backward pattern in an excavator... And I have ran about every pattern made....4 stick ...3 stick & foot swing... cat... deere...link belt, which takes a bit to get use to... the push/pull swing, but it's not a common pattern... these days the worst thing was when I worked for a guy the operator had switched the 3 stick/foot swing to match the davis trencher 4 lever... First time I took it out , I was on the phone to the boss about 5 minutes after I tried to dig... send a mechanic to fix this mess... He said I was the first one to notice that it wasn't set-up right... Years ago it was simple... tracks= cat pattern rubber tires= deere pattern... well at least around here... now it's anything goes.... just to put 8 an hour labor on a hoe...
Alpha Hotel. Hello. Who are you to dictate my use of a pattern control? I agree, it is nice if the operator knows both patterns, but why dictate? There is no added wear on the machine one way or the other. Me? 5 minutes and I can operate with the "New" pattern, but it does slow me down. Some idiot decided to play a prank on me and change patterns between lunch. I reported him. He later took the fork key out of the loader as a prank. What finally got him fired was that stunt that nearly got me killed. He told an unqualified person to operate a loader. I was instructed that I was to load myself. The truck was a Kenworth T600B with a Fruehauf end dump with a rope tarp. I was pulling the tarp forward when the loader came, knocked me under the trailer. I made sure that this man got fired. Now, crap like what pattern I use I simply do not put up with. I will report you to the powers that be if you pull that kind of crap on me. Again, what pattern I use on a machine with a selector is none of your concern.
Wow hacks? you reported a guy for switching the patterns on a machine? Thats a regular prank with us. I've personally switched the controls on my backhoe operator 10 or more times in the last year. She has done it to me as many times. If someone is qualified they should know how to change it back. As for Deere vs Cat controls... to each his own. I personally grew up on Deere controls, in college I had to run cat. When I went to work, I was back to Deere, where I am now is Cat controls but we have a few backhoes that are Deere controls... heck they are even Cat backhoes. Going back and forth screws you up for a few minutes but its not so bad once you've done it enough.
As I stated before, there is no shortage of confidence in this man(myself) here whatsoever, like other people here on H.E.F. I feel extroadinarily capable on hoes, whether it be tlbs or track hoes. Dozers and loaders I will be the first to admit I pass but there are many out there who I can get schooled by and will gladly accept the lesson. but switching control patterns mindlessly is in no way an indicator of a superior operator, I have ran DROTT, CASE DYNA HOE, LINK-BELT AND BUCYRUS-ERIE but john deere gives me nightmares. And for whatever reason, I have seen a lot of guys run J-D on tlbs and cat on track hoes, I dont have that luxury, I need cat on excavators and either case dynahoe or excavator pattern on tlbs. I have seen it done but I will be the first to tell you, not by me. But I dont believe in any way it makes me less of an operator, forget about it that just isnt the case. There isnt a company in there right mind that wouldnt want me in one of there seats.:drinkup
I spent the summer on an excavator with jd controls and pedal for the thumb. Now when i jump in my skid steer with two hand pilots, i'm dangerous. It goes in every direction except the way i want it too. Its amazing how things get ingrained in your brain.
Hmmmm ! ....well let us tell you a story of what can and did happen to one of my best pals .... he and I have been running everything that we have come across for over 25yrs each ... but... we learned many yrs ago on ISO or commonly called Deere control ..... and we are very very compitant in what we do, and by no means do either one of us profess to be the best ... as in the old west if you were the quickest draw .... there is always someone quicker ......get the point ! .... so if a guy has learned and feels more comfortable on what ever pattern he runs then so be it .... this pal of mine has been an instructor in Forest Safety Codes for many years and one day he had to go work as a superintendant at this large sight he happened to be the only compitant operator available and the 345 he had to run was set up on Sae/Cat control .... as my self we get used to and adapt to the situation ...he ran the machine for about 300 hrs and was quite sold on using the Cat control pattern, so sold on it that he switched his big hoe over to Cat .....He jokingly tried to convince me to switch too ..... No way Jose ! ... I asked him a maybe STUPID question about "What wil your brain do in a PANIC situation" ? .... he replied that there had been enough hrs spent with that pattern that it shouldn't be a problem .....well a couple of months go by and it was late in the fall, wet snow, rain, and all the crap that can be for the time of year .... he was rehabing a Forest Fire site way up on a super steep side hill de-activating this access rd when all of a sudden the HOE BROKE LOOSE sideways ...... well ....guess what BOYS ... guess what the BRAIN DID ....yup ... it reacted in JD pattern .... he slid down out of control he figured about 300 meters before he counter reacted back with Cat pattern and things finally stopped ... after getting his seat surgicly removed from his butt, he walked the machine down off of the mountain 2 kms back to his truck and drove 20 kms to the nearest pub and bought the biggest bottle he could find ...... got a room and slept it off ... next morning he went back to the sight and changed the thing back to what he was originally most comfortably with ...... That was 4 yrs ago and we still talk about this and he uses this example when he is teaching Safety courses ..... the technology that we have now available at our finger tips is pattern changers are cheap ! ... and you have multi users on a machine why not have it .... I have it on both of mine ..... THERE IS NO POINT IN ALL OF THESE PISSING MATCHES I HAVE BEEN reading on this topic all of you are great operators and professionals ( I HOPE ) and like little boys, my dodge is better than your chev, no its not mychev is better than your ford and so on and so on and so on ...... Have a great day ......JMO .02 worth
This is one of those topics everyone will have to agree to disagree on. Thread closed.