I have said in other threads, the time is ripe for a Marmon truck or someone to come along and build things like they used to be. I am not into ag, but this just came out
Yes, I'm watching that. I have some relatives in Montana that use them.
I'm not sure how they;re going to build a "simple" tractor with all the EPA regulations in place, they are the source of the majority of the technological issues.
Sounds like they are going to use a Cat engine. Engine problems and controls are pretty well understood by now. And Cat lets people have their software, for a price anyway. It is the auxiliary garbage that a certain major tractor manufacturer likes to sprinkle all over that is all networked together and not so well understood. And I assume that being the mfr, they will have full access to the Cat info, and probably share it with and help their customers.
What I read is that they intend to over spec the drive train using transmission and drive axles from Cat earthmoving and mining equipment to give a life expectancy of 20,000 hours. The objective is to make it mechanically as simple as possible. That has got to be a winner.
Big Bud have a great reputation to begin with. Although they can't make them as simple as pre def and electronic, they can use heavier duty components and make them as easy to service as possible. I think a lot of big farmers would prefer to have a simpler tractor that just works without all the electronics and BS that comes with JD and other tractors.
I think that goes for any owner of modern equipment. I just be a wake up to other manufacturers hopefully unless they have to woke.
The truck end of it won't happen-simply because of the makeup/mindset of todays driver. Just from that perspective it won't be simple, plus it's a tough market to invade if you can't supply the support and parts.
I'm kinda excited to see how this goes. I'm hoping they prove to be popular and show the green/red/blue boys how overcomplicated their products are. Welker Farm on YouTube runs them and I love how they had a transmission go out. Bought a 10 speed off the neighbor, had it swapped in a couple days and for a couple grand it was back in the field. Try doing that with the latest and greatest tractors!
I wish life were that simple. I think they will have a few hurdles to overcome in todays market. Around here the biggest percentage of farms bleed JD green and thats not likely to change. They appear to like their whole fleet to be one matching colour. The JD salesmen love those farms. Maybe Big Bud will have a green colour option?
I thought CAT did offer wheeled tractors now ?
That was the Challenger line that they had in cooperation with Agco and i believe they sold that line to Agco a few years back
As I recall Cat was in the process of dumping the AG stuff when I left the dealership some 5 years ago. Production all went to AGCO. The issue with the electronics is partially the engine emissions but goes a lot deeper. All the attachments have some electronic controls that have to integrate into the machines. Planters and fertilizer spreaders interact with computerized mapping using GPS to vary the rates of seed placement and fertilizer spread. You might have the simple tractor to pull those implements, but without an interface and control software, the machine is little different than a mule. Farming is now and forever more a high tech business.
Interesting bit of info regarding why modern equipment is so complicated. It's not only government driven, it's also very much owner/operator driven. Years ago one of my best customers was a land shaping business, they started with 8450 JD tractors and Reynolds scrapers and later went to 88 and 8970 models. Both models were pretty much non-electronic and every time you wanted to raise/lower the scraper you had to pull/push a lever. Then they bought several new 9400 model tractors with everything electronic, just move a short little electric toggle to raise/lower the scraper. After this, no one wanted to run the 70 series anymore, they complained how sore their arm got. The owner was happy with the new tractors because production was up. It's no different with any of the other equipment, wheel loaders, excavators or crawlers. Everyone complains about the complex systems but no one is willing to go back to the old mechanical systems either. Kind of like an automobile, would you want to drive cross country in a 50 year old car or your 5 year old car? And just so you know, I at times get pretty fed up with the new systems also.
All this electronic nonsense has not existed for a full life cycle yet. Once the full life cycle cost (early death of equipment) is known, it might change the calculation of the bean counters. Resale will be nil if you can't make a $$$,$$$ truck or tractor work because a $100 module is NLA and people will get wiser to that than they are now.
Should be a glider kit so you can put a v12 detroit in There is lots of big old cheap mechanical power around it doesn't steer by itself and was obsolete 25 years ago I wish it was still that way and no one knew of all the comforts of modern machines but its far to late now you cant even get someone to work without air conditioning
Series 60 14L.
I'm real excited to see them bringing this big boy back, and I'm real excited to see them try to compete with JD. But, there's no way they're going to simplify things back to where they were when Big Bud came out originally. The business has changed, the world has changed, and they have to produce something that's 50 state legal. So, from my perspective, it's just going to be a white kitty. a BIG white kitty, but that's it. I do hope to see one out there!
They aren't going to outsell JD or even come close but there are some (maybe a lot) of farmers that don't want or need an overly complex tractor. Using heavier components proven in mining applications gives some piece of mind that these components will give long service life with less chance of issues. There have been discussions about older tractors and other equipment still going after 40 or more years and the new electronic equipment will be sidelined after 25 years or less because of some computer component being obsolete and no longer available. A design life of 20,000 hours plus would appeal to a lot of customers. Being easier for the customer to maintain by themselves is another big advantage. The biggest issue making them 50 state legal is the engine emissions which is already taken care of by Cat. The Cat engines are the same ones used in Cat construction equipment and Cat is known for supporting older equipment better than most other manufacturers. It seems very smart of Big Bud the way they are designing these new tractors.
I was going to guess Cummins when I first heard about this, because they also seem to "get it" at least a little bit. But it makes sense to use Cat if they are also using the other components from them. I can wager a guess which engine mfr they will not be using.
It sure isn't Daimler they have enough on their plate plus not interested in Ag to a large degree. I'm not to sure Cummins would be a good idea, Cummins has some major supply chain issues.
Here in Australia there are plenty of old school tractors still the main stay on cropping properties and the farmers won't part with them. Many have been fitted with auto steer and it doesn't have any interface with the rest of the machine so if it fails flick a switch a keep working. I'm guessing that is the same scenario as elsewhere which is a huge chunk of the tractor market and a good business case for Big Bud.
An Agleader display can handle isobus control, variable rate, and guidance with an ez-steer without integrating anything into the tractor. Between the partnership with Rome Plow and releasing the new tractor at ConExpo they must be going for the scraper tractor market at least some. Mobile Track Solutions already builds a rubber track scraper tractor with Cat parts.
In my industry, RS485 or CANBUS type communication between various manufacturers' building blocks is getting more common all the time. No reason it can't be so for tractors. It does not all have to be proprietary under one roof.
I can't see a return to non-electronic machines, because electronics increase efficiency no end. But the electronics need to be robust and simple, and well-protected from damage, and the manufacturers have to stop withholding information on how to fix the electronics when it goes wrong. It's not good enough to be told, "just call one of our technicians", when there's 800-1000kms between your equipment and the technician, and roads are goat tracks. The Tesla way of fixing problems remotely via satellite or phone link seems to be the way current electronic design is heading. But that idea only ensures more power remains in the manufacturers hands. The true test of all this stuff is how much is still going to be running in the event of war. An enemy would only have to pop a decent burst of radiation from an EMP weapon, and virtually anything electronic is fried. Even another major geomagnetic storm presents a possibility of all our electronic wizardry failing miserably. Google "Carrington event", and imagine if that - or a worse GMS event - happened today. Add into the equation, those basically evil NK's, who are reportedly working on an EMP weapon, and we could end up relying on a lot of antique tractors to produce our food, if the NK's happen to develop and use one.
In his book "Mover of men and mountains" R.G. Letourneu told a story of when he was a young man working at his brother-in-laws car dealer ship in Stockton Cal. I believe the year was 1907 and don't recall the brand of car but that year they decided to install a starter motor to replace the hand crank. Well, with a starter motor comes a battery, a generator, lots of wires and while they're at it might as well install electric lights. R.G. said all the mechanics were complaining that those cars were getting so complicated pretty soon no one was going to be able to work on them. Today, while scrolling through the internet I came across a story about Dorman automotive products celebrating their 100th anniversary. 2 guys started the company because they thought that the average car owner should be able to buy parts to fix their own cars. As Soloman said, "there's nothing new under the sun". I am all for BigBud starting up again, I think we have gone way to far overboard on computer operated everything but they sure operate nice, when they work. I am becoming more and more convinced that the sole purpose of the internet and computers in general is strictly a control issue. Get everyone hooked on it, get everything neccesary for modern living relying on it and you can control the average persons life. Can't say much more without this becoming a political post.
I actually find Deere much more willing to work with me than Cat is. I have Deere Service Advisor and have had the Hitachi excavator program for years. Also have always had a good working relationship with all the Deere dealers, ag and construction, service departments and service techs. I have never been able to justify the large expense to purchase Cat ET. I called the Cat service department one day to ask a simple question and when the service manager heard my company name he told me that he didn't have time to talk to the competition, like a one man company was going to drive them out of business. The following day I called him back and gave him my customers name instead of mine and got the info I needed. In general very few of the local Cat dealer techs will even acknowledge me. I'm sure it works both ways but this is my experience.
This would be a good niche market to chase. The scrapper crowd spends big money trying to find a reliable power source and I haven't heard of any that stands out as a winner.
3412 Cat I'll show yins how to plow
Does anyone remember the Steiger Tractors. Panthers and Cougars that I appraised were basically trucks configured for pulling farm implements. They were probable the simplest articulated unit I ever got to put my hands on.
Case IH 4 wheel drives have Steiger roots but seems I read on here they don't hold up well pulling scrapers.
Early on when my scraper customer was looking at buying another tractor we went and looked at an early Case IH articulated, built shortly after they acquired Steiger. The one thing that really impressed me was how open everything was under the cab ect. Looked to be very easy to work on. We didn't buy it because it had outboard planetary axles and couldn't narrow it down enough.
Their Steiger roots died when CNH married Fiat. The "new" generation circa 2000 or so when they discontinued the 9xxx series tractors was the end of anything Steiger. I did read a couple weeks ago that the new Buds would more than likely be 750+ hp. That would move them out of the realm of emissions law.
I think the primary purpose of big 4 wheel drives is tillage. You don't necessarily need all the latest GPS and everything else to work the field. You just want to pull the widest implements to speed up getting the field prepped.
I guess it depends on who you get. But chances are, Big Bud is going to be the one providing the support to the customer even on the engine end of things. And their model says to give the support rather than withhold it. I too had a relationship with the Deere dealer at one time. Because one of their techs called me and asked for info for a brand I rep, I gave it to him freely. They were helpful and friendly to me after that. But the company has since been sold and some don't work there any more so I don't know if that relationship is still alive.
Disagree. The wider the implement, the more draft when wandering back and forth. This leads to requiring more overlap to prevent skipping. Also, we do tillage for seedbed prep. I run the planter in the spring for corn and sunflowers. Tillage is done at a certain angle to allow the planter to do the best job. Too little angle, planter rows follow tillage pass. Too much angle, row units are crossing the tillage passes in such a way that ride suffers, which in turn affects seed placement or spacing which will affect yield, sometimes substantially. So, yes, GPS is highly preferred in tillage applications.
The whole right to repair debate started with John Deere and got pretty ugly. Had Deere prevailed would probably have been a big boost to Big Bud.
0K, then what is the purpose of having the largest tractor if more overlap is required with wider implements? Seems you'd defeat the purpose of a bigger tractor. The Big Bud 747 pulled the widest implements at the highest speeds which was part of it's claim to fame in addition to be the highest HP tractor.
I would be surprised if BigBud will be able to provide the Cat support needed, I have a customer with a Powerscreen screener that has a little Cat in it. Powerscreen has no ability to do anything with the engine, the Cat dealer always has to come out.
That's where RTK comes in. Sub-inch repeatable accuracy. Literally no overlap needed with GPS. You need to be overlapping quite a bit to not have skips if you are steering it manually.
They need to use an engine that is built like the old stuff with a place to mount a mechanical fuel pump, so if like OzDozer says about the EMP comes true, there is a way to get up and running in an emergency. Also spring starters should be in the factory supplied emergency "Up and Running" box, then you don't need to depend on batteries. Watching the old ice road truckers, I cann't understand anyone with a bit of sense driving those unreliable powered trucks out in the middle of nowhere, that can have deadly consequences if the engine won't run. And same with emergency vehicles like fire trucks. Just pure stupid, like they need a derating while rushing to a fire.
Like military vehicles. While GPS can be a good thing there's a lot of customers that a simpler easier to service tractor would really appeal to them. The more electronics and computers the more to go wrong.
Tillage is happening less and less. No till and cover crops are the way to sell carbon credits plus build up your soil.They use very wide planters with lots of accessories plus a huge fertilizer spreader on the back. All that takes big horsepower and all the goodies associated with computerized farming. All the individual planter parts are controlled by computers and so is the fertilizer machine behind all that. Checkout the link: https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2017/11/30/saving-money-time-and-soil-economics-no-till-farming As far as Big Budd handling engines, we had one with a Komatsu engine that they never supported at all. From direct experience, the only way a dealer gets to handle someone else's engines is they have to pay for the schooling for personnel from the manufacturer of those engine. They also are on the hook for any special tools necessary to work on those engines. Once those requirements are met, they can advertise as a dealer. Plenty of equipment dealers now don't pay their way in.
John, do not fall victim to the no-till fallacy that every farmer everywhere has to no-till or the world is going to end. Some areas, no-till is preferable, even necessary, but there are many places where it does not/will not work. Period.
The statement was made that big articulated tractors were primarily for tillage when that isn't true. Big farms need big power and not just for tillage.
KW/Pete handled Cummins and Cat engines in my past experience. Although when I came on board I started sending them to the proper dealer instead of the truck builder because their diagnosis was less than stellar. Nevertheless they were fully authorized. Same thing with the gensets I now work on. The engine manufacturer be it Deere or whoever is not involved. The genset mfr is the one who provides service for the whole package. Though vertical integration is making it so less and less do you see a different badge under the doors. So I guess it can be done either way, probably something that has to be hashed out between the component supplier and the OEM. If they want to fulfill their promise, Big Bud is probably going to have to be the de facto Cat dealer. Interesting info though, I thought OEMs were always authorized to service engines.
No-till farming is being practised more and more in the last 20 years as farmers gradually come to the understanding of the level of savings and the gains to be made in practising No-till farming over a long period. Minimised soil disturbance leading to less wind and water erosion, and better soil structure - much lower fuel costs - much lower tractor costs, as tractors don't run up as many hours - faster sowing - and less hours of labour needed to plant a crop. It is a particularly useful tillage method for low-rainfall areas, drought-prone areas, and dryland farming areas with erratic rainfall. This study (link below) by an Ag Dept of one of Australias Eastern States, says that many farmers are over-powered in the tractor HP dept. There's always the "brag" factor of having the biggest tractor for miles - but in reality, many farmers waste a lot of fuel with overpowered tractors. Something like Big Bud is useful for the wide open spaces such as the prairies, and a lot of Australias inland grain-growing areas - and for heavy soil ripping jobs. But the total market for Big Bud tractors is quite limited, and a lot of Big Bud HP must be wasted in numerous cases. https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a.../primefact-estimating-tractor-power-needs.pdf
The Big Bud 747 is the biggest tractor ever made. It was made for deep tillage and pulled an 80ft. cultivator. The reason for 4 wheel drives is increased traction, less soil compaction and much faster production. I read a report that said only a little over 21% of farming is no till. If you do have thousands of acres that need to be tilled is where big HP heavy 4 wheel drives are a huge advantage. Other implements have been sized for the big 4 wheel drive tractors but tillage in tough and varying conditions is a primary function for them and they can do it faster. I agree that HP could be wasted if you aren't needing deep tillage.
NoTill farming practiced here a few decades has found its Achilles heel, Earth bound organisms and parasites, the ones once kept controlled by tillage and exposure to elements that minimized their populations and soils compaction that is not displaced, so with NoTill comes excessive chemical controls to thwart those minute critters and eventual deep tillage to break up hard compacted soils. 6/1, half dozen the other. Then back to OP, I agree with TS, not gonna get past the O/O that has to have all the bells whistles latest crap GPS planting spraying tillage gizmawitchy with Surround Sound that makes their life so much easier and yet cumbersome as well overtechnified waste with reduction of skills ever faster. Trucks will not ever be simple again, and those $100 modules are now well beyond $2000 for many or one that fails damages/destroys the next three in line that also either damages or destroys the main PCM where expense becomes no object. Are a few aftermarket suppliers but no really good software except Proprietary that costs GINORMOUS expense to get installed. Sad but waded thru this with a few local repair guys fighting the same issues in HE and AG as the trucks and autos boys now deal with. CANBUS can be a great crowd pleaser yet when faults or fails is a great PITA to diagnose to an actual fault without mass expenses in equipment to get inside and read the systems. Is also literally hair sized conductors in much of it, delicate beyond reasonable for the machines that take daily beatings.
This a very interesting thread for what has been posted so far, and reading from my vantage point the Palouse. I should have four area wheat farmers read this thread and comment. Shimmy is correct. One huge factor that hasn't been discussed is just how wide big the piece of tillage equipment is, right now at 80' most of the designs are at a max for stress factors. I can tell you which brands are full of stress cracks after two years. No till-ever hear of Yielder, the first one, guess where that came from. One issue is soil compaction, several farmers around here won't have a Quad IH on their ground again. Articulated wheel tractors work well on flat ground, yes there were Stieger's around in certain areas. Still are farmers that run nothing but Challengers and Green rubber band machines and some keep those D6's in the shed just in case because of reliability.
Additionally was mentioned Mil Spec machines. Spud bought one, are numbers of these reaching civilians usage these days as are relatively inexpensive to purchase and parts SEEM to be reasonably plentiful. HOWEVER have been explained as watched a fella trying to license a used Mil HUMMVEE here is they do not meet DOT or Safety Specs for Civilian use except strictly OFF ROAD or FARM use as MO Brown Shirts figured out. When go to license are now restrictive as to uses here where CAN be titled and those previous to current legislation are legally licensed the later units will no longer be. EPA is also having a cow over the MIL Spec equipment demanding that NO License be availed for these as do not have the Adequate for Year Build Emissions Devices where owners could be in for a shock in some states requiring those devices or complete power train exchanges. Guy in Washington MO was selling these, has since shuttered except for what parts still has for sale, Cannot ON Road Title complete machines anymore and lost the value in sales. Is the arrogance of the Fed driving this where will become ancient history of "I used to be able to" as with Glider Kits.
I am not saying this to put anyone down but maybe 80 percent of the farmers wouldnt farm with a tractor that was better ,cheaper ,simpler and easyer to fix if it wasnt shiny . Same gos for trucks if it doesnt have a bunch of bells and whistles it would be tuff to sell.
Farming is somewhat unique with the work schedule. Timing is everything. The window for a given operation is typically less than 1 month. Then when you factor in weather and soil conditions, the window is narrowed a couple more weeks. 24 hour operation is essential, and there is never enough labor. Comfort and GPS assistance are vital to increase productivity. When it's dark, there is no other way to tell where you're going. The old marker furrow worked well in the daylight with 15' equipment, it's totally a non starter at 60', let alone 100. And these aren't 50 state tractors. Probably only 6, maybe 10 states can, even use such a tractor for ag usage.
Well, here’s my 2 cents. A lot of the big farms owners don’t run the equipment; they hire operators. Their time is better spent managing. Anyone can run equipment, only you can properly manage your business. Most seeding/planting operations perform best at a specific ground speed which(depending on the implement) may be only 4.5mph max. due to proper seed placement and seed coverage with the displaced soil. Around here, 99% of farms use minimum tillage(or zero till) and low disturbance which has allowed farms to get larger with less manpower and equipment. However certain soil types respond better to direct-seeding/low disturbance than others. GPS has allowed guidance, auto-steering and on-the-go field mapping which is used by some for variable rate fertilizer application with the seeding operation. Most air drill manufacturers now have sectional control of the seeding implement on the larger drills to reduce overlap on pie-shaped or irregular areas which is controlled by GPS input. Putting seed and fertilizer in previosly seeded areas is unnecessary and cost really adds up on large-acreage farms. Most farms around here may look like ‘family’ farms but they are actually corporate farms for tax and structural reasons, so hence the large acreage and large equipment. With the types of seeding equipment here, high ground speed is not feasible- they just run 2 or 3 seeding units to cover their acres in an allotted specific time frame. At this point in time, in this area, based on the available implement sizes, much more than 650hp is not likely needed
So the consensus seems to be that simple and repairable is not likely to happen?
I think the consensus is "simple" and "repairable" are subjective terms. The definition of those terms, or what each means to each person is going to be driven by money. I mean, are you going to be able to just run out to the machine with a sledge hammer and fix it? Probably not. You're no doubt going to have to have some fairly in - depth knowledge of electronic control systems, and emissions / after treatment / EGR all that stuff. You're going to have to have a computer, and software and all that. But that's par for the course anymore. The goal posts have moved, and some people (like me!) like where they were before
There are also no emission regulation for off highway vehicles. You can import and sell any engine design, no matter how old.
I think there is a market but it is small and specialized . I have alot of simple stuff the truck i use alot still runs point and condenser.
Like a lot of things what's good for one isn't for another, when it comes to types/soil make up it varies widely. When I took care of the fleet of Ag trucks for a company most farmers had their own recipe for winter and spring wheat. The guys running the service trucks setting up equipment were requested by land owner 95% of the time because they knew the rates that particular farmer liked and set accordingly. Farms adjacent to one another could have different soil type, plus they know what works for them. I had one farmer tell me--I don't spend a lot of time worrying over balancing my check book------------- If there's no crop there's nothing to balance.
Here's a nice crop of soft white right across the road from my shop. It ran 116 bushel which is standard for right in this spot, no till.
Like OzDozer mentioned, all that electronic garbage could be obsolete, inoperative and unobtainable in one day. And we all thought the Chip shortage was bad. That is what will define simple and repairable.
Problem is Emissions has come to all engines, standby units, off road, heavy mining, rail, all of it and no one except us is looking back. Does not matter to the general public what the devices really do or how well they really perform (They don't) they hear the cries of Climate Change and no other voices as that is all the media is currently hyping. The costs are what we see, adding a fluid to allow a converter to achieve a conversion and enough heat to remove a minimum quantity of 'Soot' the powers that be blame everything from birth defects to every lung disease attributable to other factors while those numbers are not changing with all these magic mechanisms. Hit any of the geek 'Experts' with questions as to those Guesstimation numbers justification in real time real numbers as to Saved Lives or Health they look at you mumble 'Denier' then get back into their Suburban with guard dogs in their Suburban's or large transit buses and leave to go catch a flight to another scheduled rendition of guessing game popularization. We all see it, we all know it as work with it, all the Magic special circuit processors growing in numbers with wiring as thick as a bad wig feeding all these marvels of distracting nonsense. We grew up in a time where a radio and cable operated controls were fine, where now the machines are being designed with all these bells and whistles for the Homers to find the next donut shop down the road with Wi-Fi to play TikTok from. Entertainment and fingertip presentations is the new basis of design. What most will not ever know is that Russia, General Asia including China, Africa and S America do not use much of any of what we and the EU do, they do not generally buy new machines every few years rebuilding as we have shown in YT Vids all those ancient mechanical and very manageable machines with very primitive shops and tooling. Newer machines in China or Russia are still all mechanical and they do not care if cannot export to here as have other buyers, limited accessory, do the job machines and will remain that way long after ours are running thru shredders.
You can probably be thankful all your hi-tech, hi-maintenance modern military equipment is built that way - because it means that most of that $380B worth of that stuff you left in Ashcanistran can't be used against you! It might just provide a source of low grade income for a few Ashcanistran peasants, though, if they find out they can pull out all those harnesses and ECU's and PCB's, and make a few bucks blackmarketing them!
Most grow hearty or maybe hardy Red Wheat here where not many break 100b/a. I do not understand the requirements variables for White or Red Wheat where they do not hardly plant any White here.
The soft white grown here is put on a barge sent down the Columbia river for export.
I think all the time what will the future hold . These cars ,pickups,trucks, heavy equipment and farm stuff is so high tec hard and costly to repair will this put having this stuff out of reach for the average person in the future?
Yes it will, that is why I know it will change. The chickens have not come home to roost quite yet but that time is rapidly approaching, this techno garbage is getting older now. When suddenly everyone cannot afford a used car any more because there are not enough left running to sell, at least some people will realize things need to change. Corporations/government cannot bleed everyone's pocketbook forever.
Planned obsolescence has been around for decades
In a sense it's what caused the great depression only on a different scale.
Elaborate please. I am interested to hear your take on it. I remember a short story called "all the traffic will bear" about a railroad squeezing a farmer.
True, but that's the norm now, right? I mean every engine that has been made in the last 20-ish years is littered with sensors. I'm sure you run into this as much as I do, where one fails and the OEM of the machine doesn't have it / can't get it / whatever and you're forced to try and figure out who made the damn thing in the first place, and go an Alibaba or something and try and get one that way. That's the new "norm", it's insane. That was more or less my point, what was simple and repairable. Even though that's how the world works now, and everyone has to deal with it, I don't call that simple and repairable at all. I call that a giant PITA. Add to that the costs of everything is skyrocketing, I have to pass those costs on to the guy who hired me, he has to pass that on to the guy who pays him, etc, and the price of a loaf of bread is double what it was 20 years ago, and people wonder why. OK, I kinda got on my soapbox there for a sec, sorry
Corporations and banks [conglomerate] with unlimited control of markets.
I agree and I think that is a big reason they're pushing it. Total control and since public transportation now runs far out into the rural areas many climate worshipers won't care if they can no longer drive or own a vehicle.
They are out there beating the bushes, explaining that as Humans we "Need" to stop driving around in ANY Cars, was on MSN this morning where they were speaking on the extreme mining to get Lithium , Cobalt Etc, where that could "Literally Stop" was the Wording should Humans resolve to Bicycles and Mass Transit, guess they have no clue how crops or products are moved or how workers get to work. The use of Motorized albeit IC or Electrical transport is not coming to a end and the Greenies are just figuring out they are trading 6 of one for half dozen the other. World Economic Forum was sounding Scary, one speaker was recorded as stating Bans of Automobiles would HAVE to Happen, except for theirs, and that Populations would need to Notably Decrease Worldwide, and again caveat, but not affect their finances. No explanations of HOW these two functions would occur, but these people sit on that vast majority of On Paper Wealth, all of which could go POOF and vanish at any given moment. Money or wealth is fleeting as well a Ideology not a hard fact. Money, Material Value, Banking and Loans are all made up by Human Minds, can also disappear as easily as made up. Globe gets hit with a violent enough Depression, will be stragglers and few survivors as to Financial Wealth. BTW these Economy Gurus are also Aged and some Heavily, even Al Gore got to come visit with them, he looked Fat but less than happy.
Only it has gotten worse. A Module used up to eight years ago is now borderline Obsolete where NO more will be produced in around a year moving production to the next generations which as we know have pretty well become one to two years of use then change up again so at Nine years (Subject to change) will see those obsolesce and become NLA as supplies dry up. Smart people are buying the PROM Units where can rebuild and upgrade so many of these but will need exchange units as well Rebuildable units to keep pace of retention. Hell over half the soft parts on my '99 ford are NLA, some aftermarket but function odd to the OE Specs.
Who are "they?"
You know, they. They "git" you in the end.
TS hit on the fringes, WEF, Political Parties (all), any of the current what can be considered Elite, and their minions, the Green Power drum beaters, Tree Huggers, Save the Slithering whatever is managed to add to the Short lists groups.
fringe | frinj | noun 1 (the fringe or the fringes) the border or outer edges of an area or group: the southern fringes of the city | people on the fringe of the crowd had trouble hearing him. • the unconventional, extreme, or marginal part of a group or sphere of activity: the lunatic fringe of American political life | rap music is no longer something on the fringe. So fringe means something way outside of a statistical norm. How can a fringe group of anything run anything in a democracy? Are you saying all us normal people are so stupid that we let fringe groups dictate our future? Or are you saying that we are the fringe group?
I believe they figured out and fixed the Abraham's that were left behind .
Fringe, Edges of a larger 'garment', More or less in this case a cloak for hiding. Multiple definitions to Fringe.
That Abrams, they pulled out the firing mechanism and fabbed a shot gun action in, pulled out the electronic sites and put a Vortex Strikefire II 1 X 30 red dot sight. The machine guns were already manual. They couldn't get the fuel pump for the turbine to work so they installed a two inch gas powered trash pump and stuck the suction hose in the fill spout and plumbed the discharge down stream of the turbine feed. They chopped off the swing pinion for the turret and had two guys outside to push the barrel until the guy on the red dot said stop. Starter batteries went dead so they put a pulley and a rope on and fed it through a hole drilled through the frame and out between the road wheels. Next, they hooked it up to a donkey. When they needed the turbine to run, they cracked the donkey on the butt with a bull whip and the animal would try to run away and it would spin up the turbine. That worked good until one time the rope wouldn't let go and the turbine pulled the donkey through the tracks and road wheel. They didn't need to grease that track that day. It was kind of messy on the inside around that starter rope hole though.
No-till is not as popular here as it was 15 years ago. Lower yeilds and later planting because the ground doesn't dry out without tillage. Vertical and minimum tillage are popular. If you have the hp, hi-speed disks are common. Still a few old school, chisel plow every acre. Seems no 2 farmers work ground the same anymore. Ed
Don't forget about compaction. Some soil needs steel slicing through it periodically to remain productive.
Yup, ours sure does, every year, heavy clay. Tom showed up one spring to work bean stubble with a field cultivator, went about 200 yards....folded it up and left. Came back with the heavy disk....lol. There was 180 acres near me that got subsoiled last fall, looked like he ripped it around 12-14" deep. Ed
Guessing that was because the bean straw wouldn't flow and was bunching. If our bean ground doesn't get ripped in the fall, it gets the Salford in the spring. If I have to plant corn on it, I'd really like to see the cultivator after the Salford, but never do because of time and/or cost.
Lol, no. The clay was so damned hard the field cultivator teeth couldn't dig in. When I did site prep for my shop I couldn't cut the clay....a friend came over, 850 Case dozer. Looked at me..pussy, dropped the blade and gave it hell! Went 2' and spun out.....our ground is like concrete when its dry. Ed
Some ground does get so hard you need a subsoiler or very heavy disc. Even smaller acres and gardens that are rototilled need to be deep cultivated every 4 or 5 years. Some sections of my MX track are like concrete once you get below the topsoil. When it gets a good rain sucks because it doesn't soak in so I have a bunch of puddles in the low spots. It needs a deep ripping but I don't have big enough equipment. I've added quite a bit of sand that helps. I found a place to get wood chips which works good along with the sand but don't have a way to transport them out to my property about an hour away. I've been thinking about getting 1 or 2 of the construction debris bags at Home Depot and taking them out everytime I go out. The place that does the tree chipping is really close to where I live and the chips are free. Would be way too expensive getting my dump truck certified and putting insurance on it. Thought about seeing if the gravel pit near me ever delivers close to where the wood chips are and I could pay them for a back haul. Their dump trucks have large aluminum boxes and pull aluminum quad trailers. If the wood chips could be packed you'd never overload a truck.
The big green push was that the organic mass would soften soils, worked initially until does get incorporated then dries, now have a field of solidified adobe. Have to break it to break it up to get crumbly enough for tiny organisms access to break down the organics so return to tillage. Good New intentions back to what the old guys already understood.
No till works good here for corn, milo, and soybeans. 19 years out of 20 the limiting factor for yield is lack of rain. No till saves moisture, and I understand there are a lot of areas where to much moisture is the limiting factor. It doesn't work very good for wheat on wheat, as there are to many diseases that are harbored in the wheat stubble. The wheat thing doesn't matter that much, as locally wheat is a loss leader and a tribute to past agricultural practices. Corn and soybean yields have increased 50% in the last 30 years, all wheat only 25%. The high yielding wheats such as Truck Shop posted don't grow in Kansas or anywhere else on the great plains.
Just goes to show that different soil types and different stubble types require different management. Around here the biggest factor is moisture conservation so minimum tillage or zero tillage seem to work best at this point in time and some deep ripping as required depending on the soil base
I farm like it's 1960. Moldboard plow(best part of the job), disc, drill/fertilize and pack. So far my best has been 133 bushel oats and my little IH 80 pull type combine had a tough time getting through it. Too much moisture tends to be the issue here and the ground needs to be broken up to dry out and drain but if you let it get too dry, then you've got a field of concrete chunks to bust up.
An 80 IH pull type combine? I don't think I have ever heard of one. I pulled a 914 pull type for years. I preferred the pull type to running a regular combine.
It's the perfect size for me. I can run it with my 504 Farmall and it just fits in my shed. Originally it had a 7 foot cut but a previous owner widened it to almost 8 feet.
Wow! That goes back a ways.
Locals that have powered combines always complain of brakes out, belts shot, engine not been run awhile so fuel algae bad or gas soured, maintenance headache unless do as my Great Uncle and Aunt's families did, share equipment, multiple farms planted at altered schedules, machines not left to sit and rot all that long between uses, and they used a local to keep them serviced/serviceable.
I had an uncle that used a JD 6601 (I think) pull type behind a 4440 tractor. It makes more sense for a lot of farmers. Combines are a bit of an oddity. You rarely see them with a lot of hours. I don't think I've ever seen used combines with over 3000 hours. Maybe they're a right off for big farms? I knew a dairy farmer who'd buy a new 80K tractor to avoid paying taxes. He did it a few times. He had more tractors than he needed.
Look up Mike Mitchell on YouTube. They pull big air seeders and don't hardly have enough hp to pull on their hills. I read somewhere that they were planning on using 988 cat loader axles. I have thought about this and wondered why they would use loader axles and not use 773 truck axles or something down that line. Are loader axles made for long hard pulls?
It maybe more to do with the gearing required.
We are not allowed to talk about "They" here.
The reason I wanted a pull type. Didn't want to maintain another drivetrain that only ran a couple days a year and didn't need the tractor for other things while harvesting. Maybe the loader axles are easier to use in this application since they're already intended for an articulating machine with an ocillating axle?
Would loader axles be a little narrower?
But rims with offset centres or with duals all round make that argument null in void .
I've seen pictures of Big Buds with outside duals off and they don't look wider than loader axles. They use spacers to mount the duals.
Then you also gota think about unstable is a 988 with a loaded bucket in the air. Come to think of it I've never seen one laying down.
Just another big tractor.
Gearing is likely the reason.
so the way I see this, the whole thing hinges on getting a simple engine. The rest can be retro engineered to late 90's early 2000's spec electrics, you know simple single layer circuit boards with traceable tracks, relays resistors diodes and capacitors, so you can still have electronic controls, but you don't need a $5k laptop setup to diagnose a faulty ecu that has multilayer circuit boards with multiple processor units on it, that costs $5k to replace. Finding the engine will be the death nail in this project, because even the best current engine is strangled with EGR and Adblu, if you remove them they won't get sort pass from the government. Frustratingly if the machine was sold onto the African/Middle eastern Asian markets they don't need that crap on them, in the UK we can still buy and run those machines as imports... go figure.
Found this today and don't know it it has already been posted here. Figured it was good and explained a lot about big wheat farming and Big Budd.
we have the most costly trouble out of EGR systems and some manufacturers are starting to change over some models to No EGR and using the DEF/SCR system to make up for it to meet emissions. That’s a good thing DEF the main issues we see are the fragility of automotive grade components and the quality sensors that get screwed up by it. The other issues come from users putting contaminated DEF in it, not running the machine hard enough (particularly equipment like backhoes), and so forth. the DPF side seems pretty well OK most of the time. We’ve gotten down to where we have by far the least amount of issues with it, mainly our issues come from other issues or my favorite, operators canceling regens all the time. While I am no Tier 4 fan, we are finally getting to the point where more and more of the bugaboos are being worked out of the system. It’ll be a few more years before the ones that are sticking points now are gone of course but eventually it will get better.
And at that point the rules will change again
Already in the works.
T3 already was clean enough for 99% of areas but when I come on here and point that out, a few will say how bad smog used to be in LA and we need to go along with it. And now they say T4 the exhaust is actually cleaner than the air it breathes in (don't know if true) but now we need another tier yet to force on people in Montana and rural counties that have a population of 5,000 nationwide because it is somehow still not good enough.
Electronic fuel control was actually plenty far enough, the rest of the nonsense is attempting to Kill Flies with Howitzers. Subjects the Many to excess Costs while contributing Minimally to reductions. Particulate levels were down to negligible where CARB wanted Complete removal, in essence beyond capability of devices. Dust, from rock, dirt, Tires, Brakes, rotors and drums, pavement erosion are still ever present in the world as are particulates and many far worse than carbon. Not ever in a million years going to be rid of those as Nature produces more than we can.
That is the essence of it right there.
Unfortunately, congress put that nonsense directly in the clean air act. Cost/benefit analysis is forbidden with respect to pollutants.
clean air-how about personal hygiene, and farts. oh wait there's that new stuff lume even attacks butt crack odor says so on tv. don't even have to wash anymore just keep slapping that stuff on your big bud.
I think it's worth noting that yes a t4 final engine can go into a new produced machine that is built with the end user in mind and that right there makes it quite possibly cheaper than all the manufacturers that do everything proprietary now. 10 years ago it did not pencil out to rebuild a backhoe back to basically a second life weather the manufacturer says so or not I am doing it today and saving lots of money guys are rebuilding dozens of 40 year old tractors for the same reason My point is this can be done and the free market will decide if deere is a better option than bud. I do believe bud is going to build something that is not a spaceship you dont need all the tech that's stuffed into this equipment and if there operation is designed to do like 25 tractors a year then i bet they find a customer base to fit that
Should be a good market for a basic and as little frills big tractor as possible. Make the cab comfy and ergonomic and the machine easier to service. I would bet a lot of buyers would be former Big Bud owners or friends/neighbors of former owners. The reputation is already established.
From what I've found the "new" Big Bud will be a powertrain upgraded model 740, the 2nd largest tractor ever built, using all Cat mining components. At 80k lbs and huge, I'm guessing it's being aimed at the earthmoving side, rather than ag. Not something you'll move easily in rural Michigan....a 535/50 didn't get around easily here. Search youtube for Big Bud 740, 1 video on the original. Ed
I'm not going to lie, that sounds like a ton of fun.......
You know farm equipment and earth moving equipment just isn't big enough. John Barley Corn should be able to take care of a thousand acres in just 12 passes. The tires should be 200' tall, there should be a elevator to take him to the top. As he is driving his cab is at the soaring height of eagles and hawks. His service truck would need to be as big plus a transport tanker for fuel and oil twice a day. Smoke stacks twice the size of the Titanic. Headlights so big and bright those can be seen three counties away. It creates enough dust it looks like the Dust Bowl storms of the 1930's. Imagine what he could get done in one day. More time to sit at the local cafe drinking coffee with all his Big Buds cussing the nation.
Bring up a good point TS a farm tractor surrounded in dust or a set of Pans raising a dust cloud can barely see thru and enviro nuts are worried over a eye dropper of carbon dust from the exhaust on those. A barrel of hypocrisy.
The dust storms around here are pretty common, enough you can taste it. I can clean the glass table top in the morning by afternoon a nice layer on the patio. just the way it is, but not quite as bad since no-till came along.
There was a Big Budd tractor that had a Komatsu SD170 engine running around 450 to 500 horsepower back in the nineties. Wasn't enough so the owners played with the rack screw and blew the engine up. Brought to the dealer where I worked and it was put back together and run in on the dyno. Found it running at more than 700 horses. Governor was reset and the engine returned and installed. It didn't run but a couple of weeks and broke again. The owner was screaming warranty and we should fix it at our cost. Engine guy got out there and found a different turbocharger installed and the rack seal cut and the new paint broke all around the back of the governor. Things got a little tense with them ever after.
They quit logging to become farmers ....
Engine blew because of stupidity but the rest of the drive train must have been over designed to handle the extra power.
Is there really any difference between a logger and a farmer, other than one has to drive fifty to a hundred miles or more a day just to go to work.
Can unequivocally state, are similarly Minded. More Power, More Speed, Beat the machine like a red headed step child.
A while ago on another thread it was mentioned that part of the reason Cat dozers last longer is because they aren't pushed to the limits as far as HP and drivetrain go. The turbo 3204's in the 953 are an example where they did push a little too much (as far as HP) and the result is the engines require more frequent rebuilds than if they would have used a larger displacement engine. It's ironic that in smaller machines like D3's and 931's they list lower HP per displacement as one of the features of the machines.
Seems the modern way for example by 3.5 eco boost will out drag the 7.3 diesel dad bought new in 2000 but I'm sure it won't do it for 300000. It's currently at 70000 and it's a touch weaker then new I think as it is. If it explodes I'll worry.
My mechanic friend had a 3.5 Eco boost with almost 300,000km. He had heard all the stories they carbon up and won't last. If properly maintained and driven have proven to be reliable over the long term.
Wife had a 2010 Equinox, 2.4 4whapper, I got a 2010 Impala same time, 3.6v6, Roughly same mpg 25 Impala, 26 on good day Equinox, she loved the little nimble gutless car until snowed then was a skateboard with no wheels. As it made 65,000 was starting to use oil so it went away. Pimpala is still running uses less than 1/2 quart to a oil change by Dash Indicator time not on set miles at 170,000mi. My tired 7.3 has used quart of oil to 5000 mi service intervals since had 80,000mi, is on 340,000 currently and body is gonna fall off before drive train quits. Old pickup has seen better days, made 17mpg when new on Hwy, Fed fuel changes dropped to 11mpg, reprogram brought back up to 15 empty, will still get 8mpg overloaded as have done to it.
From a picture from conexpo
Nice, what did it have for power?
I didn't go to conexpo, I just saw the pictures on the internet. Its one thing to say someone's building it, its another to have a picture of it. From all the articles I've read, its going to be cat powertrain.
I seen other pictures of it half of its parts where not installed its a frame with some components in it
The drive line was not even installed looked to be cummins powered but not sure if it was new power or rebuilt the line to talk was a little long when I went by
Maybe they had the components separated to show them individually or how easy it would be to access them?
Closest I got to it - I was more interested in the Thundercreek fuel/lube trailers across the isle.
That CaseIH tractor in the Rome scraper ad has some interesting wheels on it
I watched an interview with the owner, from what he said and all the articles I’ve read, looks like it’s going to be powered by C18 cat engine, TA22 18 speed powershift Cat transmission and the same drive axles found in a 988 Cat wheel loader. It will definitely be a very robust design for pulling large implements through tough soil conditions or in pulling scraper pans. I doubt we will see many around my area of the Midwest but as with anything in a capitalism market, if you build a quality product that people want to buy and have a need to purchase, it will likely succeed. Production volume looks to also be low which will likely keep quality standards very high and result in less down time for the end user, in my opinion.
I think they are going to need to find some tracks to put under it. Those Thundercreek trailers are sure nice, they certainly don't give them away.
Goodyear/Titan that made the replacement tires for the Big Bud 747. They are the largest Ag tires currently made and apparently are a new design that are supposed give similar performance to quad-trac tractors. The 747 was parked for several years because the company in Canada that made the tires went out of business and nobody else made large enough tires.
So .... with a drivetrain like that, likely to be no change out of about US$1.5M for one, then?
I think it gives a better definition of what heavy duty means.
Remember they had some with two stroke detroit diesels with crazy power numbers. EPA killed glider truck bummer pre emissions detroit 12.7 liter 60 series can't be used. New tractor with pre emission would be reliable.
The 16V 747 had a 16V92T Detroit and was originally 760 HP. It's currently set at 1100 HP! It weighs 95,000 pounds!
No good around here, pretty much a flat lander.
Yea this is definitely a limited use machine, they will definitely be under the emission umbrella which will undoubtedly cause headaches to everyone involved, no way around that one I’m afraid.
How about a 27-liter Merlin engine?
Can you afford to keep it in "Fuel" ?