hi guys new to the forum, I got a jcb 210s I believe its a 1993, ive been fighting this thing for a year now and even the dealer cant figure it out. its been having some kinda fuel issue. runs for an hr or so then shuts off like it ran out of fuel. anyone else ever had this problem? so far ive put a new injection pump, lift pump and low pressure fuel lines on it. when it quits I still have power to the fuel shut off solenoid. another thing I noticed is that it draws fuel from the return line at mid - high rpms. ive had several other mechanics check it out besides my self, even the 2 dealers. any help would be greatly appreciated.
I have had a somewhat similar problem with my JCB 1400B. This is a bit of a reach, but... My machine's problem turned out to be a blockage of debris in the fuel tank -- it totally plugged the fuel line exit from the tank. If you have sediment or debris in your tank, it settles to the bottom overnight. After running, or especially moving the machine over rough ground, the sediment may be stirred up enough to clog the fuel tank outlet port. Good luck.
Debris in the tank is on the right track. Other possibilities are a suction screen collapsing, a rubber suction hose collapsing inside, FUEL FILTER? I'd hope they replaced the filter before the injection pump but it seems like they're not too keen on diagnostics, if you're gonna throw parts at it, at least start with the filter, right? Do you have a priming lever on the lift pump? Does it lose power and slow down when it dies, or is it like you turned it off? What do you have to do to get it to restart? You say you have power to the injection pump, have you tried disconnecting that wire and checking for a click, or check the solenoid for continuity with an ohmmeter? Electronics can fail when hot and go back to working when cold occasionally.
I cleaned the tank out last year when I installed a new sending unit. i didn't get much of anything out of it. before the injection pump, i did new fuel filter and lift pump. lift pump does have a priming lever. when it dies it has it doesn't keep constant engine speed, then it just shuts off like i turned the key off... once in awhile it will act like it ran out of fuel and i gotta bleed it to restart. normally tho i let it sit for 20-30 min and it starts right back up. when i say power at the pump, that's me checking continuity and voltage at the solenoid. there is a sensor that will shut the machine down if it over heats. i have checked continuity of it and it checks out fine. i unplugged and have tried running it again and i get the same results. i did the injection pump after dealer did diagnoses. they wanted 4k to do the pump. after i did the injection pump it ran great with no problems for 90hrs.
whats got me is that it will draw fuel from the return line. I own a farm and out of all my tractors and equipment i have never seen anything do that before.
Oops on the solenoid, forgot you replaced the pump already. Drawing fuel from the return, and the slowing down, running out of fuel all sounds like it's starving for fuel. Was there a pickup screen in the tank? any old rubber hoses on the suction side of the lift pump? You're not pulling a vacuum on the tank are you? Here's my method of using the primer lever on the lift pump. I've copied this onto at least a few threads, please give me some feedback if this makes sense to you or any other feedback. When you move that lever you're pulling the diaphragm back against spring pressure, release it and the spring pumps the fuel out, until the fuel pressure builds and holds the diaphragm back so there is no pressure on the lever because the spring is held back also (or there is pressure on half the stroke because the spring only pushed some of the fuel out). There is more pressure on the lever when the inlet is plugged and the lever/diaphragm is pulling against a vacuum. You can tell if the pump is pumping air and not full of fuel because it will have normal pressure pushing the lever, but it will spring back with the same pressure, no fuel to dampen the spring pressure. Do this before you start the machine and after it dies and you should be able to tell the difference. If you can't tell the difference, then start loosening hoses to see where you have fuel flow and what the pump lever feels like. Normal pumping fuel operation: lever has medium resistance, and just the spring pushing it on the return stroke. Pumping air: lever has the same medium resistance on pumping and return stroke, the higher the vacuum the higher the force. Fuel pumped up to pressure: lever has lighter resistance both directions, or more resistance only at the end of the stroke.
If all else fails, try hooking a wire directly from a known good power source to the solenoid. That will temporarily eliminate the chance there is a broken wire or defective switch somewhere in that circuit. It is not unusual for a wire to be broken out of sight inside the insulation or wire loom. That solenoid could be defective also.
Does the tank vent properly?
the tank was very hard to clean, thanks to the engineer that thought making the tank part of the frame was a genius idea. only way to clean the tank is threw the sending unit hole and that's only a 3.5" hole. so I have no idea if there is a pick up screen in there or not. I do know that the suction lines inside the tank are steel and molded into the tank from the front under the machine. there is no vacuum on the tank from what I checked, I also rerouted the vent line so it no longer goes to the top of the fill neck. it kept getting ripped off somehow so I moved it. fill neck is above rear tire and tank is under back side of cab. I will try your fuel pump method and get back to you on it. makes sense reading it so I think that it will work. as for old rubber lines there are rubber lines from the tank to a pre screen fuel bowl ( before the lift pump) and all steel from there on up. I checked those rubber fuel lines already they are good. I think they were replaced at the dealer the first time it went in last year. Tinkerer I did run power to the solenoid straight from the battery, still happened and I have replaced the solenoid since the pump was done. I thought that maybe it was defective. I am starting to regret buying this backhoe, but the price was hard to pass up 6 yrs ago.
yes It does, I rerouted it away from the rear tire. it kept getting tore off somehow.
OK, you have eliminated two possible causes in regards to the power wire and solenoid. Remove the fuel line where it connects into the filters. Put a blow gun on an air hose and wrap a rag around it. Put it in the fuel tank and GENTLY apply about 15 psi of air to the tank. Now observe if you have a really good stream of fuel coming out of the open end of the fuel line. Don't be tempted to blow air into the fuel tank. Unless you don't get a strong stream of fuel running by blowing into the tank. I have taken both rags and weeds out of fuel tanks. I know you said the rubber fuel lines were replaced, BUT there is always a chance one of them has failed internally. If it were my problem I would go to any auto parts store and buy enough new fuel hose to replace all of them. There are different grades of hose and they have to be diesel fuel compatible. I have run into that very issue myself once. You have to eliminate each possible problem one at a time. If the fuel tank has something in it, you may have to consider cutting a panel out of it get access to the interior. It won't be the first time that has been done. It isn't that bad of a job just time consuming.
I will have to order a set of fuel lines for it, the lines aren't all rubber, they are more like a steel braided hose wrapped in rubber and have a oddball metric thread that none of the parts stores around me can get. they seem more like a hydraulic line then fuel line. but I will put air pressure to the tank first before ordering anything else for this machine. thanks for the help so far guys.
Is the lift pump mechanical or electric ? You may need to disconnect the hose coming from the tank that supplies it. If there is debris in the tank, it will most likely plug the lift pump if it hasn't already. I have seen lift pumps that have a screen in them.
mechanical lift pump, It does have a screen in it. I cleaned it out. little bit of slug/dirt. have good fuel flow from tank at 10psi.
All the way through the filters and to the injector pump ? Is that with the engine running or cranking it with the starter ?
that was just up to the lift pump. I put 10psi of air pressure into the tank and it flows and I mean flows out the lift pump connection I took off. i did however get some gunk at first when i did that, so now im cleaning the entire fuel system again. im thinking that may have been part of the problem
finally getting back to this, so what ive done is clean and I mean clean the entire fuel system, replace the two rubber fuel lines again, checked all fluids and got it running. 1hr later it shuts down again, I jumped straight power to the solenoid didn't help, pumped the mechanical fuel pump and it has good long strokes and pushes fuel no air. is there anything else that will cause this machine to shut down? its no longer getting air in the fuel system or drawing from the return line. when it dies I still got 12v at the solenoid.
Maybe the solenoids no good. Does it click when you put power to it?
Yes it does. I have a spare one that I threw on too. It has a random rev when running a steady rpm. Say I'm at 1500 Rpms it will jump to 1800ish for a few seconds. No air in the system that I can tell. Bleed it off after it quit and got nothing but diesel fuel.
That says air to me. If you can't tell anything from the transfer pump, then you could tee into the supply line to the injection pump with a line running to a gauge in the cab and see what the pressure does when it revs, and when it stalls. Or run it off a temporary tank to further the diagnosis.
I'm wondering if you have an internal governor linkage or fuel rack problem
He had the same problem before and after he replaced the injection pump... my guesses end at the pump inlet. (and that doesn't mean I'm a pump EXPERT)
What's odd about the air thing is that I can crack open the pump inlet line or any fuel line and get no air.. I have clear lines in several places to watch for air bubbles and I get no signs of air.... New info it will run just fine as long as I don't use any hydraulic functions... Makes no sense to me Is there a sensor on the hydraulic system that will cause it to shutdown? Also discovered that when I'm checking for power at the solenoid that I need to use the ground not the power. When ever it shuts down it will lose ground connection. Wait 10min and the grounds fine and it runs for awhile again.
That's true but it ran with no problems after the pump was replaced.
Now we're getting somewhere! So the solenoid ground goes into the wiring harness?
Into a harness off all yellow wires. The numbers are so small I need a magnifying glass to read them. Gotta get a wire diagram that shows the ground circuit. Why would an engineer say let's use all yellow wires. Very confusing to chase wires.
So could you run a separate ground wire or will it not shut off then with the key. Once again I was assuming when you said you had power to the shutoff you meant you had power and ground in order to make it click.
You are definately not the only one that made that assumption
Those old jcb (and some hitachi machines) have wire strainer filter inside banjo bolts. From memory they are on the input fitting to the fuel pump. If you don't know they are there you would miss them. Known many people miss them. Could be something as simple as that.
1st thing, whats the model of the injection pump.. its on the tag on the side. Delphi? 8923a???? Bosch?? Is it possible to hook the sh-off solenoid wire, top plug, the cold start solenoid, bottom plug??[Delphi pump] IF NOT, straight wire the sh-off solenoid to the battery and see if that doesn't solve the problem. The "newer style" solenoids wont let you remove the plunger from the solenoid like the old ones did, for diagnostic purposes.. that's why I always have an older style with me.. I could send you 1 if needed.
I've just run into this thread and allot of good info here, especially because i have the same machine as JDI93 does. Although i don't have that problem, It's always good to keep up with useful info. Id like to know if you've solved your problem yet, JDI93. One thing that comes to my mind is something you said, "it dies when you would use the hydraulics"..... using the hydraulics puts a demand on the engine governor, asking for more fuel, so, something to think about. The fuel solenoid on your machine should have two wires, one is a ground (the closest to you or the first one facing you) and the other is power. If you need an electrical diagram, I may be able to help, depending on your serial number. Although it does sound like dirty or clogged fuel to me, it may also and more probably be due to electrical somewhere. Hope you let us know how this turned out for you. simonsrplant , thanks for that link also, it was an eye opener.:thumbsup
What happened ? Have you solved the problem with shut-off solenoid ground ?
Was it solved???? ANd what was it????? Im having the same issue with my JCB 210
post the injection pump model number like thepumpguy asked for, then tell us what you've done so far if you want any useful advice.
Was this ever resolved?? Thanks Marc
The last time the OP JDI93 logged in was Apr 9, 2019. I doubt if we will ever know the end of his saga. That's the thanks HEF members get after spending their time to help.
Seem's to be always the case. Sad really.
Nice Zombie Thread though!! I've got a 1550-B and had intermittent situation where it would also 'run out of fuel'. Cutting to the chase, everything on it turned out to be fine however, some dumbazz (that would ahem, be me of course) failed to double check the glass seperator under the tank. My machine being so old, literally has smudges and algea, mold or something growing on the OUTSIDE of the glass making it very difficult to see inside. As it turned out I was full of water there. There was just enough space to let some fuel through as long as my demands were low. Drive down the road, engage anything that pushed RPM's up and I was dead in water for 10 minutes while it settled down a bit in there. Dumped water, new filter there and all was well....... until about 2 years ago when I was in some fallen branches and machine died again. Seems one of the branches had been run over and literally smashed the glass bowl (you know, the moldy one) So now I got to buy a new glass jar and it is spanking clean new!!! I did however, have a panic as it smashed a fair distance from the house and now I'm bleeding out a 90% full tank of diesel on the ground. Had to race home....got a big stainless steel pan (used in restaurants as a warming drawer) Got a funnel to try to collect. Got several (thankfully empty) 5-gallon buckets for diesel. Ran to neighbors and got HIS empty 5-gallon diesel cans, dragged all this back out to the field and captured 30-50% of the remaining fuel before it too got spit all over the ground. Watch out for those little glass jars! They'll bite you in the hiney.
Ended up being the injection pump, sorry for the lack of absense guys life gets in the way sometimes
Yes it was, after chasing my tail in circles I had the old injection pump rebuilt. New(bad one) still sits on a shelf. I rarely use this backhoe anymore upgraded to a 214
Welcome back, JD193 ! Thanks for the update.