I have a 1995 215 series 2 with about 8,200 hours. She idles well. When I use the hydraulics - dig or move, the engine dies. It will start immediately and die under a load. We can do this several times and then it just stops running and won't start. I can get it started by priming, but the cycle continues. So far I have replace the fuel filter, lift pump, drained the fuel and replace with fresh, cleaned out the sediment separator. I still have the same problem. The particle screen in the old lift pump was pretty clean. Low pressure side fuel lines look good. Any ideas where to look next?
Hi, When I read the title, I though of a problem I had with a ** 50 HX. But reading your post I think you already covered that. I'll still try. The problem I had was the engine would die about 20 seconds after putting it in gear and trying to push some snow. Idling was good, even for extended period of time. The problem was not the mesh screen inside the fuel tank, but the mesh screen inside the low-pressure fuel pump. In the ** 50 HX, you have the fuel tank dripping into the low pressure pump, then through the fuel filter and bowl, then the high pressure pump, then the injector into the cylinder. There is also a pipe going from the high pressure pump (or the injector line, I can't remember) going back to the fuel tank. I can't guess what happens if this line gets plugged. I guess what you call the lift pump is what I call the low pressure pump. You say you replaced it, but was it with a new one? I mean, if you replace the whole unit and don't check the mesh filter, you might put back another clogged low pressure pump... Good luck, jf
Thank-you for your response. I replaced the pump with a factory new pump. The fuel goes from the tank (under suction) through the sedimentor (bowl), to the lift pump - low pressure pump, to the fuel filter, and then to the injector pump.
Does yours have a boost valve on the fuel pump has will have a little pipe coming off of it and a little diaphragm housing with 5 sided tork bits as a anti tamper device this will be if its a turbo model only. Also if yours is a turbo model check the turbo not seized or broken.
Fuel tank screen.??
If its a Delphi/CAV pump, theres a filter under the big inlet nut on the injection pump.. Contact for clean out instructions.. BEFORE attempting clean out..
Thanks for the ideas. I will check the turbo, the make and model of pump, and check the fuel screen tank. Pumpguy, how can I get instructions on checking the filter in the injector pump? I see it in the parts diagram. I can say that the pump screen was clean and the fuel, although it had some sediment in what I pumped out of the tank, was clear (light yellow color in the Home Depot buckets). I did notice that someone had used barrel connectors on the wiring to the fuel shut off solenoid. I may pull those connectors and replace with new and heat shrink tape. I can check solenoid for function.
Just remove the large inlet nut.. With a small pocket screwdriver, hold the guts down.. You might have to remove the big spring, depending on the pump model.. With a 90* pick/scribe, pull the filter out from the side of the endplate housing.. The MOST IMPORTANT THING IS> to hold the guts DOWN.. while pulling UP on the filter.. Its plastic, so just blow it off and reinstall..
Trew22 Hi dan, i had the same trouble with my Perkins turboed JCB 1550 extend a hoe. After I spent a lot of money and suffered a great deal of frustration as did the JCB people (Frustration for them, but on my dime!!) "I" figured it out. JCB used a semi-clear rubber (silicone?) type caulk inside my machines fuel tank, and also in a lot of other places, possibly as a filler - maybe for unwelded voids or who knows what, but I ended up sucking out a 16 or 18 inch length of this stuff which had partially detached enough to get sucked into the fuel pickup inside the tank. under heavier load it plugged the line, but would relax enough to let her start and run again, all the while hiding to the common diagnostic methods. Can you view inside the fuel-tank with a very bright unobstructed view??
I started my evening by pulling the filler to get a look inside of the tank to check for a screen. There was no screen for the fuel - just a steel line that was a few inches from the bottom of the tank. I took some photos of the inside of the tank. Trew22 - is this what you were looking for?
Finding nothing in the tank I looked at the injector pump. It is a Lucas CAV type 688. I took photos of the plate and it looks like model 3348F212. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I have done a little searching but didn't find that model yet. I opened the fuel line nut coming from the filter to the pump but the olive must seal well because I got nothing in the way of fluid though the loose nut. I learned that the large brass connector for the fuel inlet on the pump, that holds the pump filter is a 27mm socket. I don't have one... yet, so I will have to pick up a socket tomorrow to check the filter. I put power to the shut off solenoid and hear it clicking so I think the solenoid is probably good. I primed the system and she started right away. I opened the bleeder at the bottom of the fuel filter and got what I think was a pretty good fuel flow. As soon as I put it under a load I realized that it didn't just quit, it stalled. I started it again and it stalled as I put the hydraulics to work moving the bucket. It used to run for a short time under a load but now bogs right down and stops. As for the turbo, I noticed that I didn't hear the turbo whine after the engine stopped. I seem to remember hearing that when she was running well - or was it a bad memory on my part.
There's a couple ways to narrow this down that I like. The easiest once you understand what's going on, is to use the priming lever on the transfer pump to determine whether the fuel is pumping fuel, pumping air, pumped up and not pumping, or sucking a vacuum immediately after it dies. You can tell this by how the priming lever feels, I've written it out a few times and can go back and copy it here, but I don't think I explain it very well. You can figure it out just as easy by taking the lines off and using one finger to plug the outlet, then inlet, and feel the difference in the tension. Keep in mind the lever pulls the diaphragm back the same way the camshaft does to suck the fuel in, then the spring pushing the diaphragm causes the fuel pressure, unless the fuel pressure is high enough to keep the spring compressed, then the lever moves with no resistance. The other way is to tee in an old fashioned fuel pressure/vacuum gauge wherever it's most convenient in the fuel line, if it pulls too much vacuum when it's dying then you look upstream, otherwise downstream. If it's not blowing black smoke when it stalls, keep looking at the fuel supply until proven otherwise. Does this keep running at idle as long as you don't use it?
Delmer: It idles just fine and keeps on idling. When I apply a load it stalls. I didn't notice any black smoke. I can hear it labor before it stalls. I will check for black smoke when I run it next.
The 3348F212 is the pump model.. Just follow my instructions to clean out the hidden filter.. BUT.. by the looks of your tank, it doesn't look like your problem.. it couldn't hurt to check tho. The bleed screw for the low pressure side, from the tank to the injection pump is the 5/16" double screw by the name plate.. Loosen that 5/16" screw and crank the engine over until you get solid fuel and NO AIR from there and tighten.
Hi there, the CAV distributor has a very fine mesh filter inside the inlet port from the lift pump...sounds like that's pretty much blocked
Hiya, I think you're driving yourself Mad looking for all kinds of wierd and wonderful faults and I understand that like me you don't want to start playing about with the CAV pump, there's a trick that works for cleaning the inlet filter on the CAV without risking dismantling or breaking it, the tiny filter is a pig to get out and you really need to be in a nice clean lab to do it, it will look clean when you see it in the pump even if it's not. If you can get hold of a can of old fashioned carb cleaner spray with the little hose like wd40 simply spray a lot of this into the inlet port and you'll see a nice ****** of discoloured fluid run back and out of the inlet port, a little bit of bleeding air and you're good to go. This happens an awful lot with old Perkins CAV set ups especially with agricultural diesel cos when you replace a fuel filter, nomatter how careful you are, a little bit of crud always makes its way to the CAV. By the way, if you know how I can get some help with hydraulics on an 814 please tell me...you seem to get loads of replies and I'm bills no mates!!
Today was encouraging. I didn't have a lot of daylight so I skipped the CAV filter and went right to the bleeder. I cracked the bleeder that Pumpguy told me about in the CAV and bled off some fluid. Then I actually removed the bleeder screw and bled off about six ounces of fuel. It was nice and clear, no bubbles and no crud. Then, just because it seemed like a good idea while I was bleeding fuel, I bled the bottom of the filter that I replaced a few days ago. I bled about six ounces of it into the clear container. When I looked at the fuel it was an off color and I saw some opaque particulate floating around inside. So, I bled it some more until it came out nice and clear again. When I ran it this time it ran at a faster idle speed than it had been and it sounded great. It shut off again when I was moving it but it didn't stall this time. It sounded more like it actually was switched off. I added some more hydraulic fluid - it was a little low on the sight glass - I don't know if it made a difference, but when I started it it kept on running. I moved some wood chips and it powered right through it. I finally ran out of daylight. Tomorrow I am going to change out the fuel filter again, add more fresh fuel and see how she runs. I have some test pits to dig so I will be able to put her through her paces. I am pretty optimistic.
Pumpguy: I cleaned the filter screen on the CAV and then bled it using the bleeder you told me about. I noticed that the engine RPMs increase a little when I have the bleeder out and it decreases when I replace the screw. Is that normal or does it indicate a problem like a blockage in the high pressure side? The engine seems to run well now and I was able to run the bucket without any trouble (moved more chips). When I started digging I found that she likes the RPMs and shuts off quickly (doesn't bog down any more) when I have the hoe extended.
Cleaned the screen. Today I replaced the shut off solenoid and wiring connector. I pulled the consoles apart and found mouse nest (trapped 13 in the cab over last winter). No damage to wires from mice. She started up and I ran her for two hours. I scraped a rock while digging and the machine jarred hard. She started to die off and then started running again. After that I had a few spells where she would begin to die and then run. After a few hours she started running rough like starving for fuel and then would run and back to the starve cycle. Eventually she just wouldn't stay running. Once she cooled for an hour I was able to start her, move her, and put the bucket back up. Tomorrow I will pull the CAV screen again and see if I got any sediment from that jarring. She is definitely improved with the new stop solenoid and wiring. Like peeling back the layers of an onion
Hiya, know this might sound daft and I'm sure you will have already done it, but just in case. I know you've bled air from the CAV pump, but have you bled the injectors themselves (not the small top nut that connects the returns together) but the side inlet union. By the sounds of it, you have cleared whatever the blockage was but you still have some sort of restriction......possibly air. Once you get it running relatively smoothly, not a bad idea to pit a bottle of redex or similar diesel additive in the tank every so often to try and keep the fuel system clean, old CAV setups love it.
Was the filter dirty/clogged??
Jerry: that is on my list for tomorrow when I can work on her. I have not bled the injectors. Pumpguy: It had a little material in it but not much. Given what has happened since the machine jarred yesterday I may clean it again. The adapter cable that ran from the engine harness to the solenoid harness had one wire that was pretty tarnished inside of the insulation. I stripped back as much as I could but it never got clean. I ordered a new harness adapter which I should have tomorrow. I am also chasing a ground issue. I am trying to get a service manual so that I can figure out where the ground points are to check/replace them. She ran about two hours yesterday before she started the bogging down thing. We certainly eliminated one problem. Now, to find the next one...
I replaced the wiring harness adapter to the shut off solenoid. She ran flawlessly today. I guess time will tell if the issue is resolved. Thank-you to all who offered their advice and wisdom to me in solving this problem. I am truly grateful to you all.
Well, IF this turns out to be the issue, we'll all have to remember this one. Makes perfect sense if you think about it, the connector holds on alright until it starts shaking. I can't figure out how it needed to be primed to start though.
I don't know what to tell you Delmer. I think there were a couple of things going on here. Maybe while I was priming she was cooling. Temperature seemed to play a roll here. She improved a great deal after I changed the shut off solenoid and the first cable. The only thing I did after that was the other cable which I know was compromised. The coolant temperature sender had a connector with the insulation open and the copper wire exposed... in two places. I shrink wrapped the wire itself and replaced the connector. No more flaky temperature readings. She ran about an hour today with no issues at all. I replaced the fuel filter, lift pump, shut off solenoid and two connecting cables, drained and replaced the fuel, inspected the fuel tank, removed and thoroughly cleaned the sedimentator, replaced the fuel filter for a second time, cleaned the screen on the injector pump, bled the system numerous times, and tightened fuel line connectors. I suspect that the 20 year old shut off solenoid may have been flaky. I think that as she ran the wire heated and the resistance of the compromised copper wire increased causing the solenoid to not stay open, causing her to suddenly shut off. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! At least until I hear a better one!
I am having a similar issue with my new to me 212s. Disclosure...I am new to diesels. Originally my machine started hard, sometimes killing the new battery to the point I would have to jump it. When hooked to my truck it would fire right up. Once running it performed well for days at a time (in warmer weather if that matters) but still started hard. Lately it will crank and crank, sputter & die, sputter, run a few seconds and die, then finally start and idle and then run well for a while (30-40 mins today) Once it dies it cranks and stalls but would eventually start. Today I changed the fuel filter, cleaned the lift pump screen(and changed the gasket under the screw on top of it), removed and cleaned the sediment bowl (lots of rust) and removed and cleaned the filter under the fuel inlet on the IP (there was some waxy gunk on it which I found out is a precipitant of cold diesel). The solenoid looks new or at least not original. It seems to start right up and idle now, but... I didn't bleed anything and it seemed to self prime after some cranking and started and idled well. Now it dies when I put it under any load (hydraulics or trans), if I put it in fwd or rev the idle will drop and it will stall unless I dump the trans or put it in N. Once today (before cleaning anything) I quickly switched the ignition off then on again as it was trying to quit and saved it, thinking that if it was some kind of faulty immobilizer wired to the solenoid it would reset. (I originally thought the fuel cutoff solenoid was a safety feature, forgetting that diesel engines will keep running without electricity!) Can fuel draw past the solenoid under load pull it closed if the solenoid coil on it's way out? I have been reading the forums here and elsewhere and will be draining/cleaning the fuel tank & fuel lines. One question I have is regarding the inlet pipe filter on the IP. thepumpguysc warned of keeping the guts in that port and only taking out the filter, but my guts came out with the filter. Its a sleeve with a cap under it holding a spring and small bushing that slides up and down based on pressure I would assume. Fuel flows through this assembly through a small slit. I'm wondering if this assembly is indexed? It seemed to go back together fine, no leaks, etc. Just a bit worried about thepumpguysc's warning to keep guts in. I will start with bleeding it ( if I can figure out what to crack on the IP based on the posts!) cleaning the tank and checking the solenoid & wiring as stated above. This machine was not well taken care of but i'm slowly getting it back into shape. I think it got sold because of a battery drain that I already hunted down (starter) and this issue that the prev owner said JCB fixed by replacing a collapsing fuel feed line from tank to sediment bowl (apparently they/he lied) . I'm also going to plug a cheap VDO hr meter into it and see what the mystery hrs are, which is scary. Any tips on bleeding or other general help(block heater, battery warmer?) is appreciated.
A block heater always makes for easier starts. A tank heater is easier to install, just uses more electricity, but heats faster so probably the same if you turn it on closer to when you start it, like 30-60 minutes. I don't think bleeding it will do anything at all. Once it's idled for 5 minutes, there's no more air to bleed. You know you have rust in the tank. Rust is probably plugging the intake in the tank. If you have a priming lever on a diaphragm transfer pump, then you can use the feel of the lever to tell what the pressure and vacuum situation is. It will pump hard sucking a vacuum (plugged supply), pump too easy when it's pumped up to pressure (the diaphragm is held back by the fuel pressure and you're only moving the return spring), and a full even stroke means it's pumping fuel freely (line opened). Take the lines off and test it with your finger plugging the ports, then put it back and you'll see what I mean. But really, just clean the tank, or run it off a temporary tank till you get it sorted out. And use jumper cables, block heater, whatever to get it to start quick before you kill your battery, starter and alternator. I would have thought a perkins would be impossible to restart after changing the filter without bleeding it, probably at the injectors too. Makes me afraid of what you consider "some cranking".
The transfer pump regulator IS NOT indexed.. just drop it in.. That is a self bleeding pump if I'm thinking correctly.. if it has a bleed screw it'll be a double screw by the name plate.. 7/16 body w/ a 5/16 bleeder, screwed in the top of it.. Just loosen the inlet line, crank the engine over until you get fuel.. tighten line.. Next, loosen ALL the lines AT the injectors or as many as you can reach..& crank until you get fuel & tighten.. Some #'s off the name plate would be most helpful in diagnosing this problem.. some of the newer pumps have small filters that are accessable from the outside, besides the one in the inlet.. WE/YOU ALREADY KNOW you have a rust/contamination problem, let me help you find out how far its reached.. Was the inlet filter gunked-up??
I only need to crank if for about 2 1/2 hrs off and on before it fired.. Nah, just kidding. It was 3 or 4 - 15 sec sessions with a minute break for the battery to come back up. One confession. The "guts" of the inlet regulator actually came out in one piece, but popped apart on my bench (in my driveway) so I used my powers of deduction to put it back together, hopefully correctly. Most of my ID plates are so worn I can't read them. I believe the motor is an "AR" build if that means anything. I'll have another look at the IP plate. The Inlet filter was less gunked than I had hoped. there was a lint looking nugget inside the screen, which I assume to be the dirty side of the screen. Also some of the waxy substance. I realized after web searching that my lift pump is not stock. It has a removable top with a screw in the center and a screen under the cap vs the screen under the inlet double nut. That screw was leaking on re-installation so I cobbled up a temp gasket. I noticed a metal fuel line was brazed but didn't look at which one it was (it was a really short, 90 deg line). I didn't pay much attention because the machine ran great for days so that line must flow ok. I think an inline filter after the sediment bowl is good insurance, as mentioned in another post. There's also a heater in the intake with a fuel line going to it that is disconnected, and a sensor on the back of the water pump near the IP that is also disconnected, as well as a plug under the IP on the block that is not connected. not sure what any of these do. I thought the plug on water pump was coolant temp but the gauge works and there is a sensor on the big pipe under the radiator. The one on the block is oil temp maybe for an high oil temp light. The heater on the intake makes the engine shut off if I plug it in while it's running so that is a project for another time, but probably doesn't help cold starts. When I replace the lift pump I'll try to feel the resistance difference for future reference. Thanks for all the input, updates to follow.
What year is your 212s? Given your description of the heater in the intake with fuel line, you have a Perkins with a "Pre heater". These burn diesel to warm the engine prior to trying to start, it is most definitely to help cold starts. If you had the Tier II engine you'd have glow plugs instead. I have glow plugs on mine and there is a sensor in the coolant path that will trigger the glow plug circuit. Your heater is number 8, thermostart (not a thermostat!). If I can make one suggestion, please post pictures. It's so easy to do and will help people see what you are describing. Also I have the user and shop manual for around 2002 and up models, if I haven't already done so I can send them to you. Greg.
The diesel flame intake preheater on my 1994 217 S is in my intake manifold directly after the turbo. (perkins t4.236) However, there is another line entering the front end of the intake manifold. NO IDEA what purpose this one serves. It is supplied by what looks like an extra, bolt on component attached to the cav pump, being fed from the return lines off the injectors. Probasbly should have just started another thread, because I am having similar, but not identical symptoms on my machine. That's why i'm here. You guys are great. Lots of good info and places to start without even posting a problem.
Northclient - it's probably better to start a new thread, because it's not clear what your problem is. There were two machines with two different problems in this thread. If you can, post your machine serial number too along with a good description of your problem.
I'm back! Finally got the new lift pump and line to the filter. Still getting air at the injectors. No air coming out of the injector pump bleeder however.. Is it possible for the injector pump to be sucking the air internally? is that how they fail or do they fail a pressure test when they go? at a loss
The inj. pump will only suck air at the inlet & possibly at the fuel return lines.. If its sucking air at the return lines, some are routed back to the filter head & run thru the pump again..therefor, air in the system, right into the inlet of the pump. & some return lines are ran straight back to the fuel tank..
Thanks. I just checked all vac side up to the filter housing with shaving cream to see if it pulled it in anywhere. Looked tight. The bleeder on the pump near the return line flows with no air, it just seems like it is just at the injectors. Going to pull the return system and eyeball. Is there a way to detect with air pressure? I feel like the injectors will leak unless I block them off.
Don't use vaccum on rubber lines.. they need PRESSURE to leak.. No more than 4-6psi or you might blow a seal.. { NO, that just frost} lol {for those that know that joke} If your pulling a vac on rubber grommets/OLIVES to test.. you might just be pulling them IN & sealing the leak.??? Use air pressure & soapy water & look for bubbles.. Where the hellare you from that somebody uses shaving cream & vaccum to test for a leak!!!??? LOL LOL.. That's a new one.. One for the books.. Sorry, I just "thought" it was funny.. No hard feelings..
Ha! No worries. Didn't pull a vacuum, let it run and looked for it to pull in the shaving cream where it may have been pulling air. Wish I would have found something so it could be a proven method! Going to go through the return system and see what I find.
I found my check valve on the return line of the IP (to the return block on top of fuel filter) is leaking a bit in the reverse direction, could that cause my air intrusiion?
So..In case anyone from the future searches and finds this thread, my solution will be of little help. When I first had a fuel blockage I pulled the fuel feed plate off the tank and cleaned it out. Well I put a clear fuel line between the tank and sediment bowl to check for air bubbles. Under manual pumping at the liift pump, no bubbles. Fire it up and no bubbles at first, then many bubbles. Pulled the hose to drain the tank and no fuel? Blew air back through line and got fuel. Drain the tank and found a RAG in the tank from when I "cleaned" it. Apparently the vacuum built up and pulled air in at the hose connection somewhere. Anyway, runs fine now.
I have a 1990 JCB 1400b with a similar problem, when I drop the right side stabilizer the engine labors and than stalls. It doesnt happen using any other hydraulics, any help would be appreciated
Come on man, you can't just throw a curveball like that and not give a little more explanation. I'll just copy what I wrote on the other JCB stalling thread: Problem is not many JCB experts here, and JCB won't work in the search. You can try a search engine search with "HeavyEquipmentForums JCB 1400" to see if there's anything helpful. OR, post a picture of the hydraulic pump and valves, that will help narrow down the wild guesses. You and the other new guy both have similar JCB issues. HeavyEquipmentForums
Does it kill the engine while the stabilizer cylinder is in motion. Or when the cylinder reaches the end of its stroke ?
Hijacking a thread causes a lot of confusion.
As soon as I hit the lever, in motion. None of the other hydraulics cause this
I’m guessing there is a stuck lock valve on your stabilizer ram. Try taking it apart and cleaning it. Follow the hoses coming off the ram until you find a small block with two hoses coming in and two hoses going out.
mine does the same thing before it warms up if the rpms are low. bump up the throttle a bit if its cold.