Hello, I am looking for a skid steer for farm use and i saw a ad for a jcb robot 170 and i like the looks and the price seems fair. Are there any problems with jcb skid steers? I cannot find very much info on the web about them. http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6714663
jcb Hi Scorpian The JCB is a fairly powerfull unit for its size and has some reliable components Perkins Shibouro 1.9L engine, Sauer Danfoss MPT044 pump and Eaton wheel motors. The only problem is its odd construction ( we call it one arm Joe ). Access to many of its components is a bid of a nightmare. Also its centre of gravity is out of centre ointhead The only reason one would buy this ugly duckling is say for certain safety reason. Say you work at a furnace, where you may need make a quick escape on the LH side of the unit instead of in the front. But if the price is right, go for it. regards Wilfried
I have a jcb 190 and I love it! I disagree with Wilfreds claim that the center of gravity is off. If the realy look at the design the engine and cab are acually off center to the right and the single sided boom is to the left. I highly doubt the engineers would design a machine that is heavier on on side than the other. Also the consruction of the boom and tilt and lift cylinders are much heavier than any other machine that I have seen. I will admit that the fit and finish of the cab is verry simple but it is suitible. I think that is a great deal for that machine. I paid about 8 months ago $13,000 for my 2004 jcb 190 with only 600hrs in good shape exept it needs tires soon. any more questions just ask
The off center, one arm boom seems chinsy to me. Just cant imagine plowing into a pile of dirt over and over and having the arm not break. I think there are a lot better choices out there for skid steers. I would try a Case or New holland for farm type work. Maybe even a Deere. Just not a JCB fan....no offense to anyone out there!
If you dont own one or have not used one I dont think you should judge them.
I think the numbers speak for themselves. The machine enjoys practically zero penetration into the North American market. That in itself says a lot. JCB backhoes while no marketshare leader here have at least a presence in NA, the skid steers for several reasons I think cant seem to get a hold here. The JCB's I have run which were some years ago, were loud, under powered, and you cant see on the right side of that massive mono arm design. I realize what the purpose is for that design, but I think it was more of a solution looking for a problem. Like a lot of JCB products in America they don't resale very well nationally (I am sure there are some areas that may have a strong dealer that buck the national average). Like everything, some may think they are the perfect machine. However, I think considering how long they have been marketing this machine here with little to show for it (market share), the market has pretty well spoken on this skid steer.
Well maybe Volvo will turn things around now that they are adopting the mono boom design?
Also by no means do I think these are the best skids steers on the market. I have ran a freinds CAT, that thing is like a frigin Porche compared to the JCB. But twice the money, And they bolth do the same dam job!!
It maybe half the money upfront but its not going to hold any value either so I dare say its a wash at best when buying used (considering price point only). Buying new, both are going to be priced about the same, add a couple years and some hours and the JCB just turned into a real bad deal for the origninal owner. Then factor in high replacement part costs even compared to CAT, substandard performance compared to CAT ( which is by no means the segment leader in performance) and comes down to what it always seems to. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. If you need a low cost machine to mess around with probably work just fine. I don't think you can find many who really depend on a skid steer, chosing this machine for its bread and butter income. I am not trying to offend any JCB owners, just laying it out as I see it. I think a frank discussion with a JCB skid steer rep would result in the same. They cant be happy with how their machine has been accepted, at least here. They are one of the worlds largest heavy equipment producers, they are not likely used to seeing their products regulated to the basement (this may not be so true with their backhoe) in terms of acceptance as they are here in NA. VOLVO and its skid steer line up is certainly not an industry poster child for success either. Since they purchased the rights to Scat Trac, they have done almost nothing with this machine. Volvo added pilots, made the required Tier improvements and its been basically the same machine that Scat Trac couldn't sell either. Combining the two is probably a good idea, maybe between the two they can be competetive in this market.
I have owned a 190 and a 190T JCB skid steer and as far as the arm on the machine goes I have no complaints its been plenty strong and durable, not one issue with it yet. My 190 wheeled skid steer was unreal I never repaired it once only serviced it. I had it for 3 years before I traded it for a 190T and the track machine is a total toilet. Nothing to do with the arm just a million little things have gone on it and the one big thing was the hydraulic priority pump. I love the ideas and thought process behind the machines and they are a pleasure to run but the track machine for me has been a stinker durability wise. The wheeled one, couldn't say enough good about.
ah, well i see lots of people seem to be uneducated about jcb. jcb is an amazing company. they r the third largest construction equipment manufacturer in the world, and most impressively they are family and privately owned. the most impressive recent feat by jcb is the dieselmax engine, which meets final emission regulation without aftertreatment. their new skid steers are amazing. i fail to see y anyone would buy a normal skid steer. 50% of all tractor loader backhoes in the world are jcb. they are one of the leaders in telehandlers. people who have a problem with the boom design are silly, its similar to their telehandler boom design... no problems there. the only problem with their skid steers is their resale. their resale has nothing to do with anything really, its just that most people are not aware of how sweet their stuff is. i feel jcb has had a hard time getting a foothold in the us because most people just stick with what they know and with what their buddies know, and none of them know about jcb.
I agree that JCB is a neat company; however, there are lots of neat companies....Bobcat, CAT, etc. IMO, there are two primary reasons that JCB has not had good success here in the US- 1) Poor dealer network, 2) Their machines just haven't been good enough to overcome reason number one. While I'm curious about how their new skids will perform, they previously have been average at best...average lift, not very stable to one side with the single boom, average hydraulic capability, etc. I can't substantiate your claim about a worldwide backhoe market share of 50% (highly unlikely in developed countries other than the UK), they have historically hovered around 4-6% market share in the US based on data shared with me not long ago by a friend with CAT. The US backhoe market isn't what it once was, but I know that 4-6% market share in our market doesn't go a long way in securing a world wide 50% market share, and I figure that CAT, CASE, and Deere would argue the 50% claim in any case. As I stated earlier, if they had a stronger dealer network they might make some headway.
Being an amazing company does't mean that every product they produce is amazing. Maybe the latest skid steer CTL line is amazing, but that will not erase 15 years of offering a marginal product (the initial products were terrible). Dig Deep is right about dealerships. JCB has very poor representation especially out West. Given the economy I think it could take a generation before JCB sees any significant expansion of their product in the NA market especially in the Western US. It will take solid dealerships offering a solid line of equipment at rock bottom prices in my opinion to get guys into JCB. That will take a real long time. Resale is very important. You pay a lot of money for a machine. Its ability to hold its value so that when it time to upgrade you are not starting over is critical. Especially now when money is harder to make.
I have a customer that said when he started his concrete business the only dealer he could get to talk to him about was the JCB dealer so he bought one of them. I did not do his repairs then so I'm not sure how the machine was for him. As soon as he got a name and some cash he switched to other machines. He now owns 1 case and 4 bobcats.And A cat and JD mini X.JJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YAipYV528Y As a owner of a 2003 1110T I can see that have made many huge improvements in the area of service friendly engine and pumps. I truely hope they look at the network of dealer and parts priceing . Haveing Ok at best parts that are way over priced its going to be hard to regain a strong foot hole in the market . I hope they improve on all fronts , if the economy ever recovers used equipment will be worth something again .
The parts pricing is definitely a factor, but they still won't have a strong dealer network (the local dealer near Madison is a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None, selling multiple lines) even if JCB greatly reduces their prices. Secondly, IMO, Volvo has a better reputation compared to JCB. Why wouldn't a customer just buy the same "new skid" from the Volvo dealer? The economy won't help the residual value of JCB skids much. It's more a function of perceived value on the trade, and that is more a function of brand strength.
i wouldnt be afraid to buy from the dealer by madison if its the one im thinking about. their bread and butter line is case ih. they are a pretty big dealer really and are among the best as far as service on case ih machines. they dont sell too many jcb, but especially the skid steer they would be very capable of working on.
I'm definitely not saying that Ritchie Implement is a bad dealer. I'm sure they do a good job with all of their lines even though "their bread and butter is Case IH". This proves my point though by speaking volumes about JCB's challenge to be accepted in the US market. According to you they are the third largest manufacturer of construction equipment in the world, yet they easily play second fiddle to Case IH in this instance. I'm sure they are plenty strong over in Europe and even other parts of the world (just as Deere Construction is essentially non-existent overseas, but very respectable in the US), but it is going to be a struggle to make that climb against more entrenched US OEMs.
I had a JCB backhoe for a split second and sold it. The parts are off the Charts expensive! I didnt think it had near the power our old Case had and operated really rough and was 10 years newer than the case.
i'm going to chime in here because i think about those JCB sidebooms all the time. I looked at the jcb trackloader before i invested in the cat 257b in '05. My thinking at the time was why would i pay $55k for a jcb, when i can pay $55k for a cat and a cat will always be a cat. Also, if i recall at the time, the controls were mechanical, as were most at the time. The cat had pilot controls, and, well, nuf said. HOWEVER, on the farm you do very little, ever, that requires you to be in the seat for more than a few minutes at a time. Mine is mostly a farmyard machine, and it gets used for lifting and moving stuff all over the place. Rearranging sheds, craning, moving pallets, handling deadstock, and the like. I find i want out of the cab quite often when the boom is in the air. Lots of times the boom crossmember is blocking the doorway, i have to climb out around it, either under or over. I know it's unsafe, and that is my point. There are many many times when that side door would be a huge convenience and safety feature for me.
well..cnh is the second largest agricultural company worldwide. maybe they r even bigger than jcb i dont know. jcb is ranked 3rd in the world for machine volume in their industry. that is a fact. yes i would say im probably in and out of our skid steer somewhere around 5000 times a year...so a jcb would be sweet. also when getting in a bobcat your tendency is to drop into the seat, which is probably hard on your back etc. my only concern is that our skid steer is always full of mud, manure, etc and i wonder how the door would open and close in those conditions (esp frozen) and i would imagine the bottom of the door would have a tendency to rust out. we run our bobcats between 7 and 9000 hours, and they are worthless at trade in time, so a jcb prolly wouldnt be that much worse there. i would have to price out some parts before any machine purchase i would imagine. am i taking for granted the reliability of a bobcat by assuming a jcb would last just as long? i would imagine we wouldnt ever have to weld on the boom of the jcb like we do the bobcats, contrary to popular belief.
I looked at the door too, wondered how long that would last right above the tracks the way it is. Seems too light for where it is located.
so far the paint on mine is good , only needing spot touch up. Its a 2003 model with 1900 hrs , 3 owners.
so i have been thinking and have decided i have no desire to have any new skid steer unless its a jcb. the more i think about a regular skid steer, the less i like it. buying one would be a little like buying a horse instead of a tractor. regular skids are basically from the stone ages. the only problem with a jcb is they have a monopoly on the monoboom design, and once people find out about how sweet they are, jcb will be able to charge whatever they want for their skid steer because you will be forced to buy jcb because no one else makes such a machine. what really impressed me about the jcb skid steer is they did not bow down to the problematic electric controls. what a sweet move. electric controls just dont work on a skid steer because they are such a unique machine. i commend jcb for sticking with their design and building on it much like they did their fastrack. a lot of companies are quick to dump their innovative machines and go mainstream, basically copying their competition. i feel like jcb since they are a privately owned company has more flexibility and can do things like make a backhoe that does the quarter mile at 90 mph, and set the land speed record with their new engine, because they dont have to listen to their stockholders complain about how that is not profitable. i think jcb should have teamed up with agco rather than volvo for their skid steer, that would have been strategic, they would have had a vast dealer network, and agco would have had a sweet skid steer, which they currently dont offer.
Dave...I wish you the best of luck. It sounds like you have firmly convinced yourself that JCB makes the best skid steer known to man You should be in sales. I do have to admit that IMHO you are a bit all over the board with your reasoning. While JCB is in fact free "to charge whatever they want for their skid steer , I find it very unlikely that they will ever be in any significant market share position of strength to force people to buy their machine...unless of course the customer (such as you in this case) "absolutely has no desire to buy any new skid steer unless its a JCB. I also tend to disagree with you that "regular skids are basically from the stone ages". JCB is actually finally joining the game that many others already have been playing....variable speed fans, pressurized cabs, flat face/O-ring fittings, tilting cab, am/fm/mp3, etc. Additionally, I wouldn't say that JCB didn't bow down since I'm pretty sure that the joysticks are now electrical over hydraulic, and I know that the throttle is electronic. It's the wave of the future, not a problem. JCB has decided to finally try to join the market. It's also very true that private companies can spend money without the constraints that a public company can. However, I'm not so sure how practical a 90mph backhoe is, or a diesel that sets land speed records. Neat things, but has it helped them sell more machines....things that public companies think of first and foremost. You probably remember the Concorde jet....it was jointly built by the English and the French, set air travel records; not quite a land speed record, but bear with me here. It disappeared because it wasn't an economical way to transport people over great distances because people didn't see enough of a perceived value in that mode of travel beyond it being a cool novelty. Reminds me of a 90mph backhoe and a diesel powered dragster...very cool, but still a novelty. I don't see a fit with AGCO since AGCO doesn't have much exposure to construction or landscapers, but maybe they could sell some to farmers. Good luck with your purchase. You will be one of JCB's stepping stones to market share respectability.
hahaha...ah yes, well i have to have a little fun...i come on the forums mainly for entertainment. im just going to say some random thoughts. people are creatures of habit, if something is better than what they have they dont necessarily see it. and its hard to convince people of things. i do feel like the loan ranger here since i am a farmer. the skid steer was invented for farmers... and farmers have always been bobcats biggest customer. they have built over 750000 machines, exponentially more than anyone else. maybe construction guys dont have exposure to agco dealers, but i dont see y landscapers wouldnt, most landscapers are just normal people who decided to start a landscaping business. i have actually never understood y the network of construction equipment dealers is so small compared to agricultural dealers. there are probably 25 agricultural dealers selling multiple brands within 40 miles of my house. there is one cat dealer, 0 volvo, 0 komatsu, actually i cant think of one construction dealer within 40 miles of my house, the cat dealer sells ag equipment. so if jcb worked with agco they would have a vast dealer network. i dont see y it is necessary to get all your construction equipment at one dealer anyway. as far as the backhoe that goes 90 and the land speed record, that is just a form of advertisement, which is worth it, i looked twice when i noticed jcb had a land speed record with a diesel. oh i would imagine people will look at jcb when all these skid steers start running urea and jcb doesnt. as far as the electric controls, im not for sure what jcb runs, but i would be less impressed if it was electric. people say you need to embrace change, but that is questionabl if the change is not for the better. so as far as the jcb not making other skids look like they are from the stone ages, that depends on how much emphasis you put on the side entry. actually now that i have thought it over, getting in the front would be just as silly as getting in the top of the machine. i originally thought when i saw the new jcb "ah that actually is a really sweet machine." but never thought about it much after that. then my buddy told me he noticed how sweet they are too so that made me look twice. the minute i looked twice it was like seeing the light, once i saw the light, all of the other skids looked like darkness... its kinda like getting saved. now realistically, when it comes down to it we will choose between a like new s185 for 20k, or a new jcb for 40k probably. so, i do operate the machine 1000 hours a year... if i had employees driving the machine the bobcat would be a no brainer. but since im a farmer and since i work a lot, its hard to say that life is separate from work. so a jcb would increase the quality of my life. i hate to spend an extra 20k for nothing... i guess we will see what happens when i get out the check book. so with agricultural tractors, no one ever looked at jcb... but their 40 mph tractor has definitely changed the industry. john deere and case ih and agco have started making their tractors more like jcb with suspensions and faster road travel speed, although none of them have reached the 43 mph standard jcb has set. i have seen jcb change the tractor industry, im not convinced they wont do the same for skid steers. i also like the idea of them offering a telescoping boom on the skid steer. well bobcat is the one who started the creature comfort idea on a skid steer, when they started offering the free cab and heat a while back...like 8 years. that is most certainly what started the trend. and it took other companies basically till now to match bobcats cab. however bobcat has always lagged with their controls, but that made their machines cheaper, and a lot of people buy based on price. as far as electric controls, howcome cat never released them on their smaller new skids?
I believe it was Compact Equipment Magazine that stated that 1 out of every 4 backhoes sold worldwide are JCB's. I find that hard to believe, but the work is a pretty big place.
World that is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xeb1NeCT8c
jcb if i'm not mistaken as a LIFE TIME warranty on the side arm of the skid steer,they do in the uk, just check with your dealer. You will love the side arm as in farming you are loading bales and stuff which require you to get out with the bucket raised(not safe on other machines). the front window is handy not to get splashed with muck. Hey i run bobcat cat gehl hitachi and jcb. Cat are good but i'm small fish compared to quarry lads, Bobcat have alot of giggy problems all of which should be sorted under warranty but aren't so we will not run any more, but the service of hitachi and jcb dealer is second to none. Gehl has been excellant although i needed some parts and there was a 4 week delay because manitou has bought them out but an email to gehl in germay and got parts next day. Get it bought, and enjoy, just check out it's past as with any machine.
hey guy from the uk. how did u end up on this forum?? it seems to be mostly US and canada on here. i believe hitachi is the same as a new holland skid steer right? i believe fiat owns hitachi? i assume when you talk about bobcats having problems it is mostly with the joysticks? what do yall in the uk think about jcb making the skid steers in the US? are the new jcb skids as big a deal over there as i think they are?
Hitachi does not brand the New Holland skid steer, nor does Fiat own Hitachi...they own Case/NH. Deere brands Hitachi's mini's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5AEPmpQs88&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5AEPmpQs88 there was some confusion earlier as to weather the jcb had electric controls. you can clearly see the hydraulic hoses going to the drive joystick on the new jcb, sweet.
http://www.agriaffaires.co.uk/used/alias-skid-steer-loader/1/3452/fiat-hitachi.html
Look at the year of the machines...those are all at least 6 year old LS models.
Ok, I will have to chime in here and de-bunk a lot of the rumors out there regarding JCB skids steers.... 1) The Powerboom design (formerly known as the monoboom) is, in itself, virtually indestructable. There is (literally) more steel in the single arm than any other competitor, BAR NONE. Also, like stated above, try and get any other manufacturer to warranty their loader arms FOR LIFE to the original owner. Durability is a non-issue. The other point raised here was that visibility is poor out of the right side. I will agree with that, but only for about 10% of the time you are operating the loader (when the boom is at eye level). The other times, JCB's 270 degree visibilty is 33% better than the next closest competitor. 2) It seems that most everyone is comparing and discussing the old series one and current series two machines (JCB just rolled out their next gen machine which was developed from a clean slate). As a JCB dealer, I will admit that we could not compete 50% of the time with our old machines. We didn't have machines that were big enough, we did not have veritcal lift, and we didn't have the fit and finish of a Bobcat or a Cat. The Next Gen Machines address all of those issues and then some, and in a lot of cases, exceede the competition. 3) As far as machine and parts pricing, again, prior to the Next Gen Machines, our parts pricing was a bit out of line (on certain, not all, items). Our machine pricing, while higher than it should have been, was not as high as Cat (in my experience). The criteria for development for the new models was to match Bobcat on pricing, and they succeeded. Now, of course, a lot of this comes down to the dealer itself, so there will be variations on this. 4) The example of resale value on skid steers that was given was compared to Cat. From my experience, the JCB skids were always cheaper than Cat on the front end, and admittedly, not worth quite as much on the back side. With that being said, one of the models referenced above was a 257B. I think anyone who is honest with themselves will admit that these machines had issues: namely, the undercarriage. And most people know it. As a dealer, try trading one in and re-selling it. Not real easy. My point is that every brand, even the mighty Cat, has their own demons. 5) The JCB Skids and Track loaders are balanced 50/50 side to side. This is achieved by offsetting the operator compartment, engine, and drive pumps (under the cab). 6) Bottom line, the Next Gen JCB skids are the real deal (Finally!). JCB took $40 Million and put it where their mouth is. If anyone is curious go to www.jcbvision.com Now for the rest of the rumors: World wide, JCB has 49% backhoe market share. A lot of people will say I am full of sh*t, but it's the truth. (33% on telehandlers). They are the 3rd largest construction manufacturer in the world (by volume of units). Now obviously, in North America, that is not the case. Backhoe market share has been as low as 3 or 4%, and as high as 8%. If you want my honest opinion, we have a great machine that just needs a bit of North American-izing. I will also admit that their dealer network is not up to Bobcat/Deere/Cat standards. However, it is a work in progress and an issue they know needs addressing. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it really doesn't matter what brand you own, if you don't have a dealer to support you, you don't have much. Ok, dismounting from my high horse now!
1. JCB from the start has covered the Monoboom for life likely because of the obvious thoughts that boom could never hold up. On the visibility to the rightside of the machine. I have not run the new machines yet but it would seem that the boom would typically be at eye level during transport. Not sure how you assessed a percentage to that. But having the boom block your view to the right while the boom is at transport height certainly would be an issue. 2. I would respond to this by saying that rolling out a new series does not remove all the demons of old. Unfortunately it takes a long time to do that. Every person who has ever run a JCB and not liked it will continue to associate your skid steer with the one they ran. Its up to the dealers of which there are few to push the machine into demos and let the machine speak for itself. That is even more difficult considering how few machines are moving right now. 3. Resale has much to do with number 2. CAT is not a poster child for resale value in this segment, especially with their MTL's. However JCB's issues stand alone, They have marketed a substandard machine for years, poor dealer network, high parts costs with questionable availability. They have little percieved value new or used. Therefore nobody wants to pay much for them. Again changing that starts with a quality product and moves forward from there. 4. The dealer network is a major issue and one that wont be easily fixed. A company that sells trucks primarily took on the JCB dealership for much of Idaho. While they maybe a good company, and they have at least given JCB a presence here which they have not had for years, it seems like it is a side line for the truck sales company (which I am sure it is), that does not instill a lot of confidence that JCB is here to stay. 5. Being a JCB dealer is no easy task at least in North America. My hats off for coming on here and speaking up for your product.
well i have said it before. when we buy a skid steer this fall, if jcb comes in at the same price, we will certainly buy the jcb. i was just driving the bobcat an hour ago and wanted to get out... but couldnt... and thought... how sweet it would be to get right out the side. as far as the boom blocking visibility to the side, what do you expect?? at some point the boom is going to be in your line of sight. i fail to see how any competitors have it any better, especially the new case and hew holland machines, where i dont see how you could ever see anything out of. yes, it will take at least ten years for jcb to get any type of name recognition in the us on skid steers at least... but if they are dedicated to doing it, it can be done. personally i think jcb should open factory owned dealers where dealers are scarce. their new machines will sell themselves as well. people will seek out jcb; like me, when someone comes out with something i want, i go get it. i always had respect for the older jcb skids, but the new ones have my attention.
I am glad to see Big Brother is listening and is willing to listen to the small company owners that are in the dirt trying to make a living. My only issue of owning my 1110T was the cost of fatory only parts. JCBiron if you have the time take a look at cost send me a PM for the serial numbers on my machine . you will see what I am talking about. I hope the new machine line is a home run and resale value is good on used machines because many of JCB ideas a great and need to be expanded ! EDIT: My 2003 has pilot controls , not electric over hydro
The test was done subjectively by Georgia Tech. It was done from the operator's seating position, 360 degrees. It is scientific and factual, and not really an arguable point. What is arguable, is the visibility when the boom is up, which I noted. While the Powerboom is larger than a single arm on a "regular" skid loader, the fact still remains that it impedes visibility just like the JCB, except on both sides, and in most (if not all) cases, so does the torque tube and loader towers on competitive machines. I would agree with most of this statement. However, it is funny how quickly people can forget "Big 3" demons! Yes, again. And I would like to stress the last part: Quality Product. That is up to the dealer, but ultimately, tell me how that can happen if, say, a "Case Guy" isn't willing to give something a try (for free no less) and give it an honest evaluation. Parts availability will also be backed by a 48hr-or-its-free guarantee (again, for participating dealers)....So a lot comes down to the dealer.
yes. the people who are loyal to one brand are an interesting breed. i think it is quite funny really. its like the big rivalry among farmers between red and green. many a friends literally quit talking to each other for life because one or the other switched from red to green or visa versa. for these people there is no hope. they will never leave their brand they are perfectly content living in darkness. for us younger types, we could not care less what color or name something has on it. if it is a good value, it is an option. i would like to see how the visibility test was done, because im confident those results are debatable.
I think JCB has had innovative ideas on many different applications but as said above they havent expanded on those! The resale and parts are what scares me about the brand. I hope they do build a good skid and push the technology envelope. I am rooting for them (although not buying yet) becasue they are family owned. As said above with the telehandelers having a 33% market share i find that one tough to swallow. Maybe you are right but there are so many other brands with a far better machine than JCB. Expecially in Europe. Maybe Sunbelt rentals is the sole company giving them the 33%?????
y is it so hard for people to believe jcb is as big as they are?? most ppl live in their own little world and are oblivious to anything outside of it.
If a test is subjective its really not scientific and factual. I get what your saying just giving you a hard time. As far as trying other machines: I have bought 16 new CASE skid steers since 95 and each time before I buy, I have run another machines as a comparision. Usually its Bobcat but the last time it was CAT. I would try a JCB and give it a fair evaluation. But you have to convince me that the dealer will be there, and that the product will have some value when it comes time to trade in. I will even let up on some of the resale value if the dealer is strong. Otherwise even if it runs good, I am still not going to buy one. Like I said a truck dealership just took over the JCB dealer here, and I doubt they are very strong nor do I think they will last. Hard to buy machines from temporary dealers.
It's not aboput getting over how big JCB is, it's about how JCB product is perceived in the US market. Here is the list of the top 20 OEMs going into 2010 as it relates to sales: View attachment From001.PDF You can see that JCB was number 17 in 2009 going into 2010, down from #14 with a 2% global market share and revenues of $2.182 billion. They may be #3 by volume, but even Terex is ahead of them in revenues (one of only two US OEMs in the top 10..CAT being #1).
The market data is there. National Accounts absolutely make up a big part of the market share, but that is with any telehandler manufacturer. I would take anyone up on an argument that there is a better telehandler out there. There are definitely cheaper products (I'm not knocking quality, simply price), especially for lift and place machines (skytrac, JLG, etc), but you also have to look at the features you are getting for the money. And that is where I feel JCB overengineers their telehandlers. For example, our new range of 507/509/510 models all come standard with powershift transmissions and hydraulic servo controls, among other "high spec" features. For most rental yards, these features aren't really necessary for the intended rental house use, and therefore tend to price the machine a bit too high. As far as them being family owned, I don't see that as a negative, but I understand that point can be argued both ways. Here's how I see it: Most people don't know, but JCB, a global company, operates with ZERO long term debt. This is an impressive feat, just ask any business owner, and remarkable considering their size. Also, with what we have seen recently with publicly traded companies deemed "too big to fail," I think that is as much reason to be gun-shy than any other, not saying that Cat or Deere will be government owned any time soon, just for sake of argument. I've said it once and I'll say it again, I understand the apprehension most people have on JCB parts. I'm not going to sit here and say we don't have issues, however, I am not naieve (sp?) enough to think that other OEM's don't have issues....the grass is always greener on the other side. And being a dealer for another brand (Case IH), I can tell you that everyone has problems. Which brings me to another comment I would like to address: Yes there are and have been "temporary dealers" for JCB. This is no fault of anyone but JCB. For a long time they were seeking out anyone and everyone who wanted to fly their flag. This is NOT the way to do things. I don't care if a dealer has one brand, or 1000, it all comes down to the dealer's committment to the product line. JCB has finally realized this and are pushing for dealer "rebranding", and also being more stringent on their selections. They know it's an issue, and are actively working to resolve it, unfortunately, it is a tedious process. Finally, I did qualify my #3 statement by saying that it was volume of units, not dollars. Obviously a company selling nothing bigger than a 100,000lb excavator cannot compete $$-wise with Cat, Komatsu or Terex, who can sell 1 piece worth 5 MIL.
I completely understand your point (and I actually sell Case skids as well). One of the reasons I signed up for this forum was to argue (cause it's fun!), and to get a better understanding of what makes equipment owners tick (and also because I have been around equipment in one way shape or form my whole life and love it). Kudos to you for at least trying another brand. There are a lot of guys that won't even give something different a second look. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that your most important criteria for machine purchase is dealer strength/support? It's always hard to convey sincerity on a computer screen, but if you don't mind my asking, as an equipment/business owner, what does it take for a dealer that has been around for 40 years, and picked up a new line 5 years ago to show this type of strength/committment (assuming the machine performs exceptionally)? I'm not trying to sound like a smart *ss, but am truly asking an honest question. And thank you for catching my vocab slip, I'm usually pretty strict on that! (ps. Nice website)
jcbiron. do you know for sure if the joysticks on the new jcb skid steers are electric or hydraulic? cuz this vid clearly shows hydraulic hoses going to the joystick but everyone i talk to claims they are electric. i would find it hard to believe they would run the hoses to the joystick if it was electric. maybe the right joystick only is electric?
Currently, the Next Generation Servos are Hydraulic. I have heard rumors that Electric over Hyd. are in the works, but nothing more than that.
Regarding the telehandelers; My line of thought was that the JCB lifts were on the cheap. I had one rented about 4 years ago for 6-8 months and didnt care for it. It lacked power (lifting and driving), had poor lines of sight, wasnt remotely smooth, and was always broken. It was almost new at the time and was the 8000 lbs unit (dont know the model). Im not trying to make JCB look bad and i do think being family owned is a huge plus to me! I have had little experience with the brand other than the telehandeler. I just know the horror stories on parts for the backhoes and poor overall performance of the skids. That is the tough one to get over! I wouldnt give them a second chance on the telehandelers but i will look at them the next time we buy a skid (i like the side door enough to do so). Also, i would be willing to look at thier mini ex as well.
I'm like KSSS when it comes to purchasing new machines. Since early 1997, I've owned 8 new large framed bobcats, 1 medium frame (773g), an excavator, and a toolcat. I am an owner operator and I like new technology and a minimum of repairs and I look for dealer support as my first choice right now. I tried another brand for awhile and was sold on the hype and stupidly sold two of my s300's that were in good condition and reliable for this other brand because it was the latest and the greatest. The "other" brand's service department could not get the kinks out of my new machine and I lost about 2 months of production overall until they bought the machine back. For that, I give them kudos but the lost production (even with a slightly lower powered loaner and the aggravation) still gives me nightmares. I ended up going back to a K series Bobcat. Admittedly "old school" technology compared to what I was trying out, but it has been reliable and productive. I am approaching 1600 or 1700 hours since August of '08 on that machine alone and it is still going strong. The dealer support at Bobcat has been great over the years. My point is that dealer support..going the extra mile, having service trucks to help you in the field without pulling teeth or raping you on charges is a big plus. Personally, Bobcat has been good to me and only recently have I had to question some of the repair charges and strive to do more work myself to afford the repairs. Bobcat engineers get back to me if I ask a question and that's pretty cool. I am not naive and have made an effort to try other brands but I do not get a lot of confidence when the salesmen don't know much about their product or want a credit application before they even talk seriously with me. I've been around long enough and owned enough machines that I won't play that game. I know everyone has to make a buck. Lord knows dealers up-charge on parts. I've seen the invoice on a $1 part at my chipper dealer and when it gets passed to the customer that part is $10. Ouch. We all have costs and anyone "new" or trying to grow in market share has to bring something different to the table and I like discounts! I realize a lot of independent dealers may not want to subsidize or go that extra mile once a machine is sold so it should be a corporate mandate that they do *through subsidies) and I mean a strict followup to make sure the customer is happy. If you were closer, I'd give the JCB a try and see what the machines can do. I am not up on JCB specs, they look cool, but I've seen some of the older ones that didn't impress me too much. I do like the side door.. I mulch about 40% of the time and need hydraulic power, comfortable cab, and something that isn't going to be a torch in the woods. Personally, if I was a dealer in this area trying to move their new products, I'd be out showing the guys they can find.. searching local websites and offering demos and discounts to get someone to talk. Anyway, that's my two cents.
jcbiron. so they are talking of offering electric joysticks as an option? what would be the point of that? so when you say servo... do you mean servo or pilot? if its a servo joystick, i would be impressed, because no one else does that. from my experience servo controls are just as responsive as manual controls, and pilot controls are less responsive than servo. also, do you know what the optional multifunction joystick is about?
I think that is a fair question. Normally I don't give dealer presence as much weight as I do when I discuss JCB. Be it Deere, CAT or CASE all are well established here, Bobcat was until the Deere dealer who carried BC sold out and the BC line went out on their own (actually Intermountain Bobcat from Utah put a store up here as a stand alone BC dealer) they closed the store. So now BC has been picked up by an independant rental store, we'll see how that goes. But the moral of all of that is normally I don't have to worry about dealer support 'cause its just here. JCB however is different, they were here until the stores switched to carrying Volvo and dropped their JCB line leaving everyone that did own JCB equipment stranded. JCB was down to one store in Idaho until recently. Honestly I don't see a lot of committment by the brand to stay established, at least here. I will say that if a long standing dealer picks up the JCB line that is different. You have proven you have staying power and you did not just blow into town and throw out a JCB shingle and call yourself established. That has not happened in this area and even if it did, it would take some serious convincing that they are committed to the JCB product line. When it comes to buying skid steers, for me productivity is king. We do a lot with skid steers, probably more than we should, but we have a killer ROI. To do what I need to do, I want high torque, large displacement engines, good breakout and robust construction. CASE up till now has given me that (I am switching gears now). So you can imagine how upset was when I saw some early specs on the newest CNH machines. Lower torque and smaller displacement, killer breakout numbers but to mulch up to 10K feet or moving material on steep slopes at high alt you need torque. I have been asked to come to the CASE factory in Witchita and the testing facility in Goodyear, AZ and run machines on occasion and offer some imput. I sent an email to CASE concerning issues I saw on the new machines. They are sending me to Goodyear in Feb to run them but I think the machines are done, so it will just be an opportunity for me to run them and realize that the machines can still get it done or that I was right and they jacked up a good machine and I will research someone elses machines to buy. Ultimately I need the productivity regardless of color, I prefer that be CASE but only if the product gets it done.
I think he's referring to the "servo piston". There is usually two for each pump (two drive motors to pump oil to). It is either mechanically shifted, hydraulically shifted (you refer to them as pilot controls), or shifted via electronics (E/H).
first of all im impressed bobcat has been getting away with manually controlled pumps for so long now. and it is still their most popular setup. who is the one who started mechanical servo controls? pilot controls? i know cat was first in the us, but im talking in the world. it seems like the rest of the world uses pilot iso. is there a big difference in the pumps between manual controls like bobcat and servo controlled ones as far as the swash plate is concerned? or is all of the servo and pilot stuff basically bolt on to a standard pump. so if the jcb has hydraulic hoses going to the armrest, that would have to mean pilot right?
Thanks for all the replies fellas. To clarify the Pilot/Servo discussion.... In my area, the words Servo and Pilot are used interchangibly, but understand that what you are probably referring to is the difference between a servo machine that uses a "Pilot or ISO" pattern, vs. a servo machine that uses an "H" pattern (like a Case can have). The JCB skid steers have always had hydraulic servo controls; i.e. hydraulic fluid running into the joystick and operating spools to control machine movement. I know for sure that the Cat machines have been electric over hydraulic, so I suppose if you didn't want to use the word servo, that would maybe make sense. Electronic joysticks firing hydraulic spools. This is the type of controls that JCB is rumored to be changing to in a couple of years (Elec. over Hyd.) As far as the Multi-function Joystick, this is simply the electronic switches on the tops of the control handles that are connected to the 14 Pin connection on the front of the machine to run attachments. KSSS, I'm right there with you on the new Case machines. Not real sure how they will pan out, and to me, if you were to take the boom and loader towers off, look a lot like a NH chassis. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it.
so if you dont get the multifunction joystick, how do you control your auxiliary hydraulics? is it still a button on the joystick? like bobcat? it doesnt sound like i would have any use for a multifunction because none of my attachments have more than one hydraulic cylinder on them. well discovering the differences between control systems has been a long process for me. i wouldn't wanna use pilot and servo interchangeably. for example, the standard case is mechanically servo controlled, h pattern. and for 2200 dollars you can get pilot controlled servos. with the case servo controls, you cant get the iso pattern. with the case pilot controls, you can get either h or iso pattern. i have never heard of a mechanically servo controlled machine of any brand with iso controls. (well the gehl iso t bar is the closest) the question is Y is everyone going to electric controls. is it cheaper to build? i doubt cheaper to maintain? just because that is the in thing to be doing? more efficient? the only thing i can think of is with pilot controls (unlike servo controls) you dont have full control response at low rpms. and in cold weather they can be problematic? this would be overcome by electric servos. maybe you get less of a lag time with electric? from what i understand with servo controls you can still feel your machine (not as much as bobcats manual controls). and i hear you can barely feel your machine with pilots. obviously nothing with electric. so if i could choose a jcb with pilots or electric joysticks, what would i want?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va5bpq0D7ZM&NR=1
oh and the jcb armored backhoe does 60 mph. i do enjoy how jcb likes machines that go dangerously fast. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgH0ZfGA_bI&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mAveO59y8I a random awesome clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=floPT6PKsPY&feature=related
There are several reasons for E/H controls. Electronic control of the engine mostly to help meet tier levels and the fact that there is so much you can do with the control system once you go E/H. You can now control response of the machine's functions, the ground speed of the machine, pattern changing, with E/H you can give the operator max. control of the machine. Pilots don't give you near that kind of flexibility. Putting E/H in a skid steer has been challenging for all those that have done it. CAT, Deere, and BC have had their growing pains with E/H. Pilots are much easier to get right and less to go wrong it seems. With E/H trouble shooting these will be a dealer only deal I think.
i talked to the local jcb company rep today. he said jcb is going to have pilots on their skid steers till 2012. then they are going e/h for the tier 4 emissions, and they are going to offer all 3 skid steer patterns on their machine with the flip of a switch if that is what you want. the current pilots are only available iso. i like the idea of buying one of these pilot controlled machines while i still can. since i am an owner operator, none of the e/h provides any benefit for me. im kinda impressed e/h is more expensive than pilot, cuz with pilot you actually get serious hardware. they say the jcbs are supposed to be a little less expensive than a bobcat. the neighbor has 12,000 hours on his sjc a300 bobcat so it seems possible to get electric right.
I have operated a New Holland skid steer since 1978,-775's (2),785's (3) 885 still have, 175 track,still have. Went to kentucky this fall to the expo. Looked at deere, kubota, jcb. I have been fed up with the reliablity of the newer new hollands. Looked at the bobcats too. I would like to have a new A770 bobcat. But I will say this After running the new kubota I was impressed, then jcb invited me to one of their dealer mechinics (can't spell) school. I got to run some of their new machines. Looked at the ease of service. Without having price comparing and the poor quality that has been coming out of new holland. I would say that the new jcb beats them all. with kubota a tight second and bobcat coming in at a tight third. I have been a diehard new holland fan for a long time, but they are falling behind. Even their new case/new holland models leave a lot to be desired. Then I hear fiat has cnh up for sale. trying to unload. Figures- fiat get's rid of ford, brings in their fiat line then dumps it all. Think that happened before,many years ago with fiatallis. Anybody else remember that one? I for one am not happy about it, so I will be looking at another brand
is bobcats aws model that popular? i never see many around, yet bobcat seems to offer it in a lot of models. the one question i have is how come takeuchi seems to be the only ctl with planetary reduction on their drives? doesn't this kinda put them in a class by themselves, the class that you would want to be in? i cant figure out how there are so many companies making ctls and they dont feel like they have to compete with takeuchi. also, takeuchi doesnt seem to feel like they have to compete with anyone else either. no vertical lift, not different control options, no size comparison, no track suspension system, etc. i can see y they dont want to go with a track suspension, but i find this all interesting. i have never figured out what fiats strategy is. it seems they have had their hands in everything over the years. y is it necessary for everyone to be buying and selling everything anyway? i like how john deere, honda, and toyota have never really been into doing such things.
From what I have read about Fiat and the CNH line, this is what I have learned. Fiat has or is going to split their company into two entities. One will be focused on the auto industry and the other on the construction and Ag industries. Fiat wants to be a major player in the Auto industry, globally and apparently splitting the company will help the do this some how. There has also been talk of AGCO purchasing CNH from Fiat, which from what I have read and been told by dealers, won't happen.
God help us all!!! I really don't think that would ever happen, but it is sure a scary thought....
Balance is good. Keep it full of fuel as it is part of the counter weight. Mine didn't handle dry dusty situations well as it blew up at 400 hours so keep filters clean. They may have corrected this by now. The side exit is priceless for many reasons aside from emergency escape. Can't remember ever slipping getting in or out of mine. Still have bruised ribs from my cat last week,my Bocat isn't much better lol. Loved my jcb but have to say cat and bocat have prove to be much easier to work on and a lot more reliable.
jcb stole cat and bobcat engineers to design their new one.
Do you realize how ridiculous your comment is? You've been rambling on and on about how great a company JCB is along with all the merits of their skid steers, especially now that they're built in the US, and then you make a comment touting how JCB stole engineers from CAT and Bobcat to design their new skid steer. First off, engineers leave companies and go to work other places day in and day out. Secondly, to say that they had to "steal engineers" to make a good one sure validates many of the poster's previous comments on the skid steers previous quality that you so strongly championed. Did JCB steal any NASCAR or Drag Racing engineers to set the land speed record with their diesel dragster?
ha ha i will comment on this later...
Ok. Well, first of all, I hate everything about skid steers in general. If it was up to me I would never own one. They are weak, don’t lift very high, and you NEVER have enough traction. Traction is always a problem and a huge inconvenience, and the costs associated with a ctl is prohibitive at best. And since when is skidding tires an efficient way to turn anyway? Skid steers are slow, bumpy, up till now just a pain to run with loud cabs and nothing to make driving enjoyable. Skid steers were made to replace a shovel, and that is still what they do, and yes they have their place. That said, skid steers are a necessary evil that comes with our farming operation. Some genius back in the day built the entire farm around the skid steer. If it were up to me I would have lots of room to drive around and I would have probably a loader tractor. I would have 4wd fluid in the tires, maybe chains, wheel weights, and around 100 hp. That would be sweet, and I could use it when we are short on tractors during haying season. Either that or a jcb endloader or a jcb agricultural telehandler, their telehandlers really look like nice machines. So my biggest problem with people is when the original poster said he was looking at purchasing one, people came out of the woodwork to tell about how crappy, unbalanced, and problematic the robots were. Granted, I do not have much experience with jcb equipment yet, but honestly people, go anywhere else in the world and saying jcb would be just like saying john deere in this country. They are not going to have an inferior product, not to mention the robot has been on the market for decades now. I believe my words earlier were that I had respect for the older jcb skids, but now with their newer ones they have my attention. Now it is true that the robot is a European machine, and in Europe they are not that into skid steers, which I commend them for, because they are aware articulated loaders, loader tractors, and telehandlers make more sense. So the europeans don’t know what americans want in their skid steers, so it doesn’t really make sense for europeans do design it, not to mention lots of people probably did not want to move to the US. Now when I commented that jcb stole engineers from cat and bobcat, that was kinda a figure of speech. They did not literally break into the bobcat plant and kidnap bobcat engineers. Jcb likely got a list of some of the best engineers in the US, and called them and offered them a job with jcb. Its what companies do, they fight over the best engineers. You don’t get a good engineer by posting a job listing, you get a good engineer by going out and finding the best ones and offering them a better package than what they currently have. Hyundai, the automobile division, just picked up one of audis engineers to help in designing their new sonata, and if you look up the new sonata you can see where it is more audi like and less hyunda like. So jcb wanted good engineers to design a sweet skid steer around the good ideas jcb already had. The monoboom, the side entry, and the dieselmax. The safety factor is also huge but nobody seems to care about that either. That is what sets the jcb apart from other skid steers, not the rest of the skid steer that say a bobcat engineer could throw together. So tell the bobcat and cat engineers to make a good machine around the already good jcb ideas. Jcb already did a lot of the work, they just wanted someone who knew how to finish it off the American way. As far as the land speed record, yes i would imagine they would have had engineers outside of jcb working on that too. And I like how nobody gives credit to jcb for being the ONLY company in the WORLD who is pulling off final emmision requirements without using aftertreatment! How is this not hugely significant? Cat simply refused to meet emissions and just paid the fines, and then eventually quit making certain engines. If I was designing a machine, I see jcb as the only option for an engine to install. Best fuel economy, and no need for urea. I want a pickup with a jcb engine, im sure everyone is aware of the poor fuel economy and urea using new pickups. As far as the dieselmax and the land speed record…I have heard that recaro was in on the designing of the dieselmax, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they were in on the land speed record either.
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Dave, There is a guy named Gravel Rat on another dirt moving forum. You guys have a lot in common.
Let em have it Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bet your up to typing 60 words a minute!! Very well said!
ah yes. my writings might not be compositionally correct because of time constraints, but i think the point gets across. ah its actually ricardo not ricaro who was in on the dieselmax and the land speed record. ricardo is who literally everyone turns to when they cant do it themselves. http://www.ricardo.com/en-gb/
Dave...I admire your passion...although I've never longed for a paragraph break until I started reading your posts.
Looking into buying the 2011 260T any one checked them out demo or anything?
what would you like to know?
Well, cost? Reliability? Performance? I have had some experiance with JCB over the years, and not impresed at all. So the new Vision looks awsome but will it hold up?
definitley sharp looking! Specs are pretty good too
reliability and specs should be right in line with everyone else. actually they wont have electric controls (till next year), so less to go wrong there. they are supposed to get significantly better fuel economy than anyone else. average cost is supposed to be 5% less than bobcat. i dont believe their skid steers have a name other than skid steer. jcbvision.com refers to their company outlook.
Thanks dave, requested a price quoit 2 weeks ago through there vision web site and still no response?
I can only comment on my mini jcb excavator, awsome machine, it never has let me down. I also just talked to a rep{yesterday} and it seems they are going to be bringing in a rather large inventory{upstate NY and Vermont} within the next couple of months. I do not see any issue's with the one arm "except" the use of OTT's. If their skid steer's are anything like their excavators then I say they get a :thumbsup from me here are some claimed specs from JCB jcb has 61% better visibilty then BC, 67% better then JD, 59% better then CAT has 68% more cab space then BC, 57% more then JD, 61% more then CAT has 16% better average fuel consumption then BC, 22% better then JD, 19% better then CAT has 38% less zerks then BC, 38% less JD, and 53% less then CAT this is just an overall and in IMO even if you don't like JCB it's good to have variety it makes which ever machine one choses work to improve their standards.
Digsalot; if you'd like I can give you the info for my rep, I'm sure he could find answers for you?
Thanks maddog, I would like to have the info so I can make an informed choice!
Digsalot; sent you a PM
You are probably not going to find many dealers that have any units available for demo until March/April at the earliest. I have several units ordered and that is when they are supposed to start arriving. There may be some out there before that, but they will be sold-retail machines, so I doubt you would be able to demo in the dirt. As for the machine itself, it is a complete departure from the old JCB skids, with the exception of the single arm.....Vastly improved from head to toe. I could go into details, but it would take forever to list all the improvements and changes. The JCBVision website is simply a launch site for product info on the new skids. It isn't necessarily their "vision" for the company. Kind of like when Deere did the skid steer smackdown site....just not competitive stuff.... If you can't find someone to help you on a price, let me know and I can either give you an idea or put you in touch with someone close to you that could help.
Thanks JCBiron, If you could give me a ball park idea price wise I would really appriciate it. PM me with your # I would like to speak with you about the JCB. Thanks again.
PM sent digs...
You should try one- it would change your perception. Since it is unlikely that you will- you should read the evaluation the Construction Equipment Magazine just did with independent operators from the Local 150 training center outside of Chicago. They, like you, were skeptical of the mono-boom design. But once they tried it- they became believers and preferred the JCB skid. Check it out http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/top-operators-can’t-defeat-jcb’s-powerboom
ah i made my way to the local jcb dealer to drive the new skid steer. my suspicions came to fruition. the skid steer is everything i expected it to be. it is as close to perfect as you could expect. i like the rugged rear end and how it is composed of all thick solid steel. i liked how the work lights are mounted on top of the cab in the rear, so they dont constantly get broken. i like how there are no stacked radiators anywhere. i like the comfy seat and the pilot controls. too bad they are doing away with those. at least it sounds like they are going to have a sensitivity dial for the eh controls. i like the big heavy boom with few grease zerks. i like the quiet, ergonomic, roomy, and high visibility cab. i like the clean simplicity of the design. im going to have them bring it out for a demo. i might have bobcat bring out an m demo, otherwise i dont see why i would even bother trying out new holland or deere, and there is no cat dealer around.
Glad to hear you were impressed, Dave. I am also happy to report that out of the 3 demo's I've done so far, we have faired very well. One customer has comitted to purchase, the other is undecided, and the third just got his demo yesterday, but so far is impressed. Also worth noting, I am demo-ing a 260T OROPS, only because it is all I have avaiable right now(most of these guys have T300's or 332's)....so I am very eager to get the 300/320T's out there. My personal experience operating the new units: - The cabs are everything they said they would be. Huge volume, exceptionally quiet, A/C works great, visibility is impressive....just all around comfort. - Pushing power on this 260T is impressive. It will easily boil dirt/rock/sand/road mill over the back of the bucket if you want to. - Controls are very responsive. Only complaint there is that I wish the single speed would have about 1 mph more speed. - Very stable in fork applications too. I tested this unit with a 1 yd concrete barrier, which should weigh around 3K lbs.....lifted it, moved it, carried it....didn't even hardly know it was there. This impressed me, because I have seen what the Deere machines can do lifting-wise, and I think we can hang with them. - Very stable on slopes too. On my first demo, one of the first things the guy did was start climbing the side of a pretty steep bank, probably about a 2-2.5 to 1. Then he turned sideways on it and drove around to the level part.....I was nervous just watching him, but he said the machine felt very planted. All in all, I am more than happy with how the new machines have turned out. Obviously, we have our challenges ahead, but I am very encouraged at how the units are performing, and excited for the rest of the line to come out at the end of this year.
if i was a dealer i would simply drop off the jcb machine at random establishments even if they didnt ask me to. once people get in it you would have buyers. i would also be a rich dealer and buy 40 or 50 of these skid steers and line them up along the road. that would sell them more than anything. it provides the illusion that it is the machine to have. our local skid steer dealers do that, and it works. the one dealer just got in like 15 wheeled terex machines along with 10 tracked ones. and he has never sold one in his life (wheeled machine). the other dealer has 20 or so new new hollands sitting there. they sell about 80 a year i guess. i have a few concerns with the jcb. how much does a new door cost once it is rusted out from being covered in manure all the time? or when u wedge it against something and spring it. how much does a door seal cost? cuz that would need to be replaced often in our conditions. how does the door work when you get liquid manure on it in below freezing conditions? i think rubber mudflap fenders would almost be a necessity for us. so once we would get a jcb, i dont think we would go back. however, if i trade a jcb on a new jcb is it going to cost a lot more than if i was trading a bobcat in on a bobcat? i understand that a bobcat dealer would give no money on trade for a jcb, i just wonder what a trade would be worth at a jcb dealer.
got the jcb 260 out for a demo. i must say it is quite a sweet machine... if it said CAT on the side it would sell like a hot cake. after running the jcb, i cant see where any other brand could compete with it. this is my first time running pilots for a long period of time. they work pretty nice, but i dont like the fact that you have to have the engine running so fast to get the response out of it. i would prefer to run the engine at 1300 rpms when not working it. perhaps i will like e h better for that reason, and perhaps e h will work better in cold temps than pilot. i dont see how there would be less responsiveness with electric than fluid. honda always boasts of their hyperresponsive electric throttle system in their cars... maybe if i tell the dealer to set em as quick as they go i would be happy with it.
The E/H across the board seems to be less resposive than pilots. That is subjective as I dont have any data to support that. So are you going to buy it?
buying this machine is tempting, because it is such a sweet ride just the way it is. it is HUGE compared to our s185. you need like 4 more feet to turn in an alley. the extra fuel cost and the extra 10-15k purchase price is hard to justify when we don't need a bigger machine. i flipped the cab up on it this morning, i could not believe how nice it was laid out. on the bobcat when you flip up the cab, it is jammed packed with stuff further than your arm can reach. the jcb hardly had anything under the cab. it was wide open with easy access to everything. i will be surprised if between jcb and volvo, they do not sell a lot of these machines.
Dave...it still boils down to the perceived brand value, the strength of the dealer network, product pricing, effective marketing and financing. This goes for both JCB, Volvo and all the other brands. IMHO, US customers don't draw a strong association to either of these two brands as a real player in the compact equipment industry. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it is going to be a long, hard and expensive road. Do they companies want to spend the $$$$ to get there??? I give JCB a better chance than Volvo. Outside of the US, JCB is much stronger from the backhoe on up.
im not so convinced jcb does not have a name in the US. i did a nation wide search on craigslist for jcb, and there were 1300 listings. i did a search for komatsu, and there were 1800 listings. if you search for bobcat or cat you dont get an accurate representation of construction equipment because so many other items are associated with that name. make no mistakes, resale value is the only thing that would stop me from getting a jcb. but i have not been impressed with the resale value of a bobcat either, so i dont know if a jcb would be much worse.
I wouldn't use Komatsu as a benchmark since they're pulling out of the US compact equipment market with their skid steers and CTLs. Proof even the world's #2 manufacturer of equipment doesn't make success in the US a given. You're gonna be hard pressed to convince me that JCB has a strong name in the US, especially for skid steers considering that they were grouped with Hydra-mac, Hyundai, Thomas and Toyota as part of a total of around 600 skid steer units sold in North America out of over 38,000 sold that year. Volvo sold around 800 that year, and I give JCB a better chance of success in the US. I'm not saying that it can't be done; only that it will be very expensive for them to make it happen. Time will tell if they have the stomach for it even though they are a private company that can practically spend money how they see fit without worry of shareholder backlash.
Dave your method of determining market penetration of a construction OEM is a "tad" flawed. JCB is working hard to press into the NA market but like DigDeep says that takes years and huge budgets and they are not there yet. I am a big advocate of trade in value. However if you are keeping them to 8000 plus hours I am not sure how big of an issue resale is. No matter what color your not getting much on resale. You might be better off sitting down with the dealer of choice and find the sweet spot for trade in on a particular machine. Keeping them till they are worthless means starting over with every purchase. As these things keep getting more and more expensive, what used to be a rather trivial purchase has become a major one. Starting over on a 40-50k purchase hurts I dont care who you are, especially since there was a point in the life span of the skid steer where you could roll it into a new one for little money (relative to a new purchase). Once you have depreciated it out, it might actually be costing you money to keep it. Everyones mileage on that issue might be different, but it is something to look into.
KSSS, I found this first statement interesting, only because I hear that question A LOT (When is the best time to trade?), and I honestly don't know if I've ever had a good answer for it. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you are wrong in thinking that, just offering another perspective. As a dealer, I think it ultimately comes down to what your current market will bear at the time and how strong that particular brand may be in your area. On the Ag side, I think there are definitely plateaus that machines hit as they age, but I guess I just don't see it on the CE side as much. That's not to say that as an owner, once depreciated, it may be time to look at a new purchase....I do agree with you there, and that ultimately comes down to each individual customer's situation. I will say this about JCB.....they are arrogant and have DEEP pockets, two things you must have when trying to penetrate a "new" market. It will be interesting to see where we are 3 or 5 years from now, and a lot of that falls on the dealer's shoulders.....am I up for the challenge? Time (and sales) will tell...
I think everyone (dealer) has different circumstances to consider (brand popularity, model popularity, area economy and so on). I think a dealer should, if he is dealing with a known machine, have an idea of what the value of that machine would be used in his market. So he can say to the purchaser of a new skid steer your machine loaded as it is in good condition "should" be worth about X amount with between 1000-1500 hours and this amount between 1500-2000 and so on. The owner of the skid steer should consider what he owes on the machine, how much it makes (earning capacity of that machine) and how important the added productivity of a newer machine is and factor that into his replacement decision. I did not mean to say that the dealer has all the answers, but the owner with the help of a knowledgable salesman should be able to build a strategy on when to start looking to move into a newer machine. A salesman needs to be savy enough to assist his customers in these decisions There will be a tipping point at which the hours/age/condition/downtime dictate that to maximize resale value and productivity you should move to a newer machine. When that occures is different for everybody, if your a demo contractor that is likely sooner, if you load saw dust at a log mill its likely later. Here the larger machines 465 and such are harder to resell. The 440 sized machines are gone nearly instantly. Again having a big ag presents makes a lot of that happen. So I run the larger machines longer which you have to anyway usually because they cost more. Now with something like a JCB skid steer that makes things much more difficult at least for me it would. Who knows what they are worth? That probably varies by region more than most makes because in some areas JCB is established and in others not at all. You would have to look to Ritchie bros, Iron Planet and so forth to get a general idea. My hunch is you will have to keep a JCB for a good while (I am being maybe too kind, I think the owner is going to have to run the wheels or tracks off the machine because of the steep drop in value) , they just dont resale so you need to pull every last valuable hour out of the machine you can. Cause no one is going to pay you anymore for leaving some value in the machine when you want out of it.
Bit confused about why Europeans shouldn't be designing skid steers, Dave? Perhaps Cat shouldn't have concentrated their backhoe design and manufacture in the Uk, or their tracked loaders in France? You might be surprised how many skid steers there are over here, but even on their home ground JCB haven't buried the competition. As for JCB meeting emissions legislation without aftertreatment, that is only on a very low-powered constant speed tier 3 engine that they sell or fit in gensets or compressors, rather than mobile plant. That engine can't meet tier 3 in higher-powered applications and won't at all at tier 4. As for Cat refusing to meet emissions, where are you getting this crap? They have only discontinued engine lines that a/ aren't profitable or b/ can't be made to meet emissions regs. They're spending tens of millions to stay ahead of the game and trying several different strategies. You are right about Recaro's involvement, they did much of the design and development work for the JCB engine. JCB have been offering their as a package to third party customers for four or five years now, maybe more. Do you know of anyone fitting the dieselmax to their machines, Dave? If not, ask yourself why.
ah, someone from the uk who does not think jcb is great! so would you say 15 years ago there were many skid steers over there? i believe the statistic is that over half of the skid steers in the world are currently sold in the US, and i suspect it was much higher years ago. well i know next year jcb is going to have a tier 4 skid steer using the dieselmax without any aftertreatment. cats original strategy was to refuse to meet emissions back when the whole fiasco was just getting underway; i guess they figured it was not going to catch on. they had to pay a bunch of fines for this, now i assume they are complying. i believe komatsu bought up an old cat engine design cat couldn't get to work and made it emissions compliant. maybe jcb wants too much money for their engine because they know it is worth it...
i always have liked the case 430. problem is the price for a used one is about the same price as a new bobcat. if the cab was bigger, it would be worth more to me. as far as jcb resale value. we are in a bind because at the local bobcat dealer, if you want joystick controls, they charge you 2000 some extra dollars for that, and as soon as you trade it in, it is worth 2000 dollars less than one without joysticks because nobody wants them. so as soon as you take a new bobcat off the lot, you lost 4k becuase of joysticks in addition to the other 4k you lost just by taking it off the lot. with a jcb the standard price includes joysticks, and you dont get docked for them when you sell. so that might make up any difference in resale right there. since we are a farming operations with a centralized location, the cheapest way for us to own a skid steer is to keep our old one, and pick up a used bobcat for 15k, and keep both of them forever (20k hours or so). when one breaks down, bust out the other one. i am pretty handy with a wrench so i could fix them up when i had time. it seems that getting a trade quote once a year would be a good idea, and then if you dont get a good quote at some point be sure to trade it before 5k hours, unless you plan on running it a lot longer. i think my craigslist survey was a good idea. it really should provide a decent representation for certain scenarios if you think about it. the only problem with the komatsu and jcb comparison is that komatsu equipment might be higher ticket items; dont know which way that would effect things.
Why would you run a skid that long? That makes no sense. I don't care how 'handy' you are with a wrench I want my skid to run when I want it not hope and prayer. I flip my skids every couple years and have done very well. My current Case 440 was low $30's, I have a .9% and a payment that I think isn't too bad and it still has powertrain warranty. As for the JCB issue, I don't care how good they say they are I will stick to the devil I know(Case) as the trade values have been awesome. I got a Mustang track loader(same as TK) and I can't give the thing away, it is a good machine but nobody wants it and I will take a beating on it so never again with a 'not as popular' machine brand.
by the way uk guy. it was a compliment when i said people from europe are not that into skid steers. i would be better off both time and money wise if skid steers were never invented. they simply dont have enough traction unless you got ideal conditions, which is basically never. ctls on the other hand, are a good invention. i dont really know why people are so scared of hours on a machine. i said it before, if my life depended on it, i would take our old bobcat over a new machine any day. its not like when you got high hours your machine breaks down all the time. the majority of the breakdowns we had with our current machine were under 4000 hours. it seems like a lot of the heavy construction, road building, demolition guys use my strategy of running old school equipment from the 1960s to the 1980s equipment like the scrapers and dozers, and having lots of it. actually i have to do more work on our newer tractors than the old school ones. on the other hand i would be scared to run any of these new machines to high hours cuz of all the electronics. i seem to have accumulated more high priced equipment computers that for one reason or another are completely good, but i might as well just throw away, unless i just wanna give them to the dealer just so they can have them. new digital readout display for the tractor... 7k. (not one i have in inventory) i believe case has had good resale but one thing or another is going to happen. cases resale is either going to go down now, or new hollands is going to go up. im thinking cases will go down i guess because im pessimistic. oh if you want to give me your ctl...i will take it!
I just want to let you know "Dave" i love this thread!! You have argued this JCB thing better and from more angles than a Philadelphia lawyer. I hope you are aware that if you buy anything other than a JCB next time, whenever that might be you will never never ever live it down! Personally i think JCB should just give you one for all the PR you've done.
hahaha. dont worry, if i do NOT buy one, the only reason that would be so is because of you guys!! i do feel like people talk directly to me when they comment more than others. i tried to get jcb to give me one and they said no! the bottom line is jcb makes what i want in a skid steer and in a farm tractor, its hard not to buy something i want, owning both would be living out the dream
Dave, wow, ok here it goes. The construction industry and the ag industry have far different requirements out of a skid steer. A farming operation that maintains their skid steer (something of an anomoly) 10K hours is not unrealistic from most machines (probably not as likely with the Perkins powered CATs but you get the idea). Most skid steer time on a farm is light duty work, pushing manure, a lot of idle time, feeding hay ect. They may see a lot of run time, but not much in the way of demanding applications. The construction industry is far different, demanding hyd attachments, breakers, mulchers, asphalt planers, ect. take a toll on a machine. These applications take a far bigger toll on a machine than what the average ag skid steer sees. Skid steers dont hold up to hard high hour usage like a wheel loader or dozer does. You dont see many construction skid steers being used and depended on at 10K hours. The very same can be said for mini excavators. the other issue is productivity. You make money in construction by being productive. A skid steer with 10K hours is not as productive as a newer machine. Not to mention reliability. Downtime is a job killer. I know that downtime in ag sucks as well, but generally speaking I think it is more costly in construction. The harder you use them, the more often they break. My point to you is keeping a machine that long may actually be costing you more than you think you might be saving.
You're guessing, assuming and believing quite a bit there, USA guy. Where are you getting all this "information" from? If you've paid for any of it someone owes you a refund. You definitely won't see a Tier 4 compliant Dieselmax without aftertreatment. Reason being that burning fuel always produces NoX, which isn't regulated at Tier 3 the way hydrocarbons and particulate matter are, but is at Tier 4. As I said, their non-aftertreated Tier 3 is a low-powered constant speed product. When some aftertreatment systems are almost doubling the cost of the engines they're fitted to, don't you think the world would be beating a path to JCB's door, even if it was a bit dearer, and if the Dieselmax was so expensive, JCB wouldn't be producing it, they'd continue to buy.
I think the confusion here is what we are considering aftertreatment. (As told by JCB personnel directly), The JCB Dieselmax engine will be Interim T4 compliant with a low % of EGR only, and will not require any secondary fluid (DEF) or particulate filters/regeneration. As for T4 Final, we don't know just yet.... KSSS, I think you misunderstood my previous comments regarding re-sale. I wasn't saying that I couldn't give a trade value for a model year "X" at "Y" hours, nor that with an informed customer, we couldn't decide when a good time to trade would be. I was simply stating that when a customer says "When's the best time to trade," there are so many variables to that, and most guys can't give the proper info to make that informed decision you are referring to. Also, it's "dealer presence", not "presents" ......just giving you a hard time
"im sure everyone is aware of the poor fuel economy and urea using new pickups." Dave, As much as I love the enthusiasm and vigor with which you push the JCB skids, I will have to pick on this statement just a bit.... Let me qualify this by saying I have ZERO experience with DEF/SCR on pickup trucks and what that does to fuel ecomomy, but I can speak about what we are seeing on the Ag side of things in the new Case IH Steiger and Magnum tractors. To put it bluntly, SCR saves fuel. And if anyone on here wants to argue that fact, whether it be "yeah, but you have to buy the DEF" or "yeah, but the tractor is more expensive", please share... We have customers saving anywhere from 8-10 gallons PER HOUR over their tier 3 tractors, pulling the same implements and doing the same amount of work. In some cases, we have customers doing the same work with smaller tractors and STILL saving fuel. This diesel savings MORE than pays for the cost of the DEF. And while it is true that the technology comes with a cost on the front side....tell me a year when manufacturers DIDN'T take a price increase. Most of the time they just call it an "Economic Adjustment," which meant, "We're gonna charge more cause we can." This time, we are actually getting technology that improves the performance of the machine. The long and short, machine prices go up anyway, this time, we got something for it. Now, of course, this is a CE forum, so I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread and start preaching about farm tractors....but as everyone on here knows, a lot of the same engines wind up on both sides of the fence, and a lot of my Steiger tractors end up pulling scrapers. I know I am biased, but unless Deere has a trick up their sleeve for Tier 4 Final, I think they made a big mistake going with CEGR/DPF. Notice that when they talk about their T4 solution, they never speak of improved efficiencies....it's always "We didn't notice any change from our old tractors." Just something I noticed when looking at their website info.... Ok, so I kinda got off topic here, but the original point was that SCR/DEF has been GREAT for fuel efficiency on the Ag side, so I would be surprised that the pickups aren't seeing similar improvement????
i will reply more to the shinanigans later. although its true that scr saves fuel over a tier 3 engine, the tier 3 engines took way more fuel than the older engines. they are not more efficient than say a diesel engine from the 90s. (the west measures efficiency by emissions, the rest of the world measures efficiency by fuel consumption) if you go to the nebraska tractor test lab website and look up old vs new tractors, you will find that many of the old school tractors achieved a higher hp-hr/gal rating. this is before you even factor in added cost from technology or urea consumption. i do not consider exhaust recirculation after treatment. do most people? when your customers are telling you they are saving 10 gallons an hour...is that calculated or what the computer says? i do not believe anyone is saving 10 gallons of fuel an hour in a fair comparison. that is "not possible."
Dave, We are at Tier 1 efficiency levels. Fuel savings have been seen at the fuel barrel, which most of the time, has coincided with the read-out on the inst. cluster (within a few tenths). On a side note....even on our Tier 3 tractors, we demo'd a 485 Quadtrac to a Deere customer (9530's I believe) and they realized an 8 gallon per hour savings pulling the exact same implement. And you also have to factor in that when conditions are ideal, a Quad will always use more fuel than a wheeled tractor.
I am talking about the T4 final levels, not the interim, which is, er, interim. JCB are using a narrow range of engines to brag on, which will bite them later. Cat had a T3 compliant engine with old-school mechanical pump and injectors. They were smart enough not to brag that this was the way to go at T3, but used it as a cost-saver for their own benefit in some applications. JCBiron, it's just possible that JCB's talking up their engine is to take peoples' minds off the poor rep some of their equipment and aftersales service is getting. They don't have too hot a name in their own back garden. Which is a shame as some of their lines, like all companies, are good. As all of these companies and corporations rush to become full-line producers, quality of some lines suffers.
First link is of an older jcb pushing dirt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va5bpq0D7ZM&feature=related these links are just of awesome stuff everyone should watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qYpJzO96Uw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPsFZBA_1FY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxxUx08XVYg&feature=related
first of all i was talking to a gentleman about case skid steers. he said customers said the case s3 rear door was too light, and are impressed they made them even lighter on the new case machines. he has customers that change out their back doors on bobcats when the get new rental machines, and thats a heavy bobcat rear door at that. everyone knows newer pickups get worse fuel economy than older ones. granted, they have more power, but even carrying around just the truck its still worse mileage. as far as sticking with one brand of equipment, or sticking with an entire brand lineup of equipment, that does not seem like a strategic thing to do. really, i could not care less how "good" jcbs full lineup of equipment is. i am interested in their farm tractors and their skid steers. i buy whatever is the best regardless of who makes it. when r we all going to have a meeting at the local town hall so as to discuss matters? their is no denying the dieselmax is partly for publicity. better deal than super bowl commercials. i was wondering how long it was going to take someone to say that farmers dont use their skid steers like construction guys. i have thought about this before and this is debatable. unless you use your skid steer strictly as a dozer, or strictly as a jackhammer (not with a jackhammer attachment) to tear concrete buildings down, i rarely see skid steers doing things that are impressive. our skid steer does a lot in harsh conditions, and never idles. now THAT i believe. that a deere is taking 8 gal an our more than a cummins. deere has never been known for their fuel economy. the stars are aligning and the wheels are being set in motion for getting this jcb skid steer bought. there is talk of getting one out here before they are even for sale. on the dodge truck, and on my buick car, the computer for fuel mileage is usually off by 4-8 mpg, on the higher side of corse.
Dave, did you get the JCB and if so how do you like it? Thanks
JCB SSL/CTL Problems Q4 2012 In the September of 2012 I was evaluating SSL/CTL's for purchase for my use on my property. I'm a retired Civil Eng'r & a work alone owner/operator, so I get in & out of cab of my machines a lot. And I have wet ground & grass & woods to work in. So, I was very interested in a small frame 60 hp JCB CTL, like a 150T or even a 155T (a 150 with the wide track option). I was in the process of getting detailed quotes when the sales rep told me it was all for naught, because JCB put a "hold" (sales/production?) on all the small frame models until the beginning of 2013. I couldn't wait that long, so I ended up buying a New Holland L220 with Solideal rubber OTT's as the best conventional solution for me. While I like the L220, it's not perfect, & I still dream of the JCB cab. Does anyone know what caused the "hold"??....What was the problem??...Has the problem been fixed??...Has production/sales of the small frame models resumed??
im surprised i missed responding to this post. we got the jcb 205 last fall, and i could not be happier about it. the jcb is a sweet machine. we put about 500 hours on it this winter. the particular unit we had ended up going to the shop recently, and because of the nature of the problem it was having, they traded us into a brand new machine for free. the service and support has been outstanding. i can not say enough good things. the cab definitely is a dream its easily the most comfortable machine we have. i dont know what the hold up is on the new ones, the new one we just got works just fine...
What was the problem that they traded you into a new machine, if you dont mind my asking?
ever since it was new the boom would bump against the cab anywhere from 0-4 times a day. it didn't really cause any problems it was just annoying. they tried putting a new boom on it and that helped but did not solve the problem. the new one does not have this problem so we should be good to go... at this point i don't see how i could ever go back to a traditional skid steer...
Anyone got any answer or input on my post of 3/23/13 about JCB SSL/CTL Q4 2012 problems?? How about from Dave Esterns or JCBiron??
I am a dealer and I was told dealer inventory had gotten way too high and production allocation for North America was being put on hold. If you can make the jump to a 190T, you should be ok.
True...sales were low...and the booms were swinging side to side and hitting the cab. The large frames still do with a mulcher on them...and the boom will rub on the tracks if the boom is on the downhill side with a mulcher on it.
i know they are making the switch to tier 4 right now too perhaps that has something to do with it. i believe they will have a revision of the whole machine at this time too. as far as the boom hitting the cab, on the large frame i just do not believe that, i do believe it may rub on the track. they only have 3/4 inch clearance between boom and cab on our new (75 hours) 205, and it does not hit, and the large models have over 3 inches; if that thing was managing to swing that far it needs new pins and bushings. i would say if you can stand to have a radial boom, that would be the way to go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukzHgnZJfYw Brand new machine.
Looks like they need a way to support the front of the loader arms or really tighten up the back pivot point.
God knows no skid loaders have play in their booms.........every machine on my lot has side to side play.....including the Cats, Deeres, and New Hollands ect. The small frame machine booms were not line bore at the factory initially.....we had a machine that had the boom contact the cab with less then 100 hours. We had it line bored and fixed for the customer (JCB even paid for the rental while it was being fixed) and it is totally fine now. The machine has about 3000 hours on it now. The customer ordered another machine while this was all happening......the first machine is fine, the second machine has been totally trouble free. ( I would expect it to have 500+ hours by now) Lets get some videos of people shaking the booms on Backhoes, Telehandlers, and Excavators. If single arm skid loaders can't work, I am sure big equipment would never work with one arm.
I'm sure the point the guy that took the video was making wasn't that booms shouldn't have some very minimal side to side play, but that a new machine shouldn't have the boom contact the track on such a low hour machine. If it does it when it's new, what will the play be like when it has 1,000-2,000 hours? Could this only be one reason why JCB has such a small market share in the US?
i will reply more to this later, but i just went out and tried this on the 205 with the manure scraper sticking 8 feet out front of the machine, and the majority of the movement you see comes from the entire machine moving, not the arm. the benefits of owning the jcb far outweigh any different idea of purchasing a competitive brand.
Thanks for the opinions on the JCB small machine "hold" in the fall of 2012. Since my dealer wouldn't even quote me on one when the "hold" went into effect, I'm inclined to think that it wasn't because of over-stocking problems, but rather because of boom problems (clearance, side play) on the small machines. At the time I wasn't willing to look at the larger frame machines...I think I should have. A jump to a 190T would not have helped, since the large frames start at a 225T. Since Volvo's appear to be just re-branded JCB's (e.g., JCB 190T=Volvo MCT85 & JCB 260T =Volvo MCT125), is there any difference between the JCB & Volvo, or is it just a choice of dealers?
Given that I have been getting a steady supply of small frame machines in since last sept (except for the Radial lift 135 & 150) I tend to believe it.
I have have only been a JCB dealer for a year or so, and a New Holland dealer for almost 40 years. So take what I say with a grain of salt. 30 years ago, we heard simular comments about New Holland's verticle lift booms. They were too complicated, they had too many joints, ect ect. If verticle lift skid loaders were needed/wanted, Bobcat would have them....so on and so on. Today...about 70% of skid loaders sold in North America are verticle lift machines......aparantly Bobcat changed their mind that verticle lift booms have an advantage. I have an average of 50% market share in my PAR with new holland. Skid loaders are 40%+ of my total business.....yet since I took on JCB, they are outselling my NH machines. Right or wrong, that is pretty hard for me to ignore.....regardless of my personal opinions. JCB just might be starting to get attention in some areas?
You've made two good points in this post. 1. You've been a NH dealer for 40 years and a JCB dealer for about a year. How many dealers has JCB had in your area in the 40 years you've been selling NH? JCB has been selling in the US for quite some time and they just don't have the perceived brand value that NH and others have. This is evidenced by their wold market share lead in backhoes. They had about 40% in 2011 the last years worth of info I got from my Bobcat contact, but only had 1.3% in the US. Their SSL market share at the end of 2011 was about 1% . I doubt it will be much higher for 2012 once last years results are available. I'm sure your dealership is a good one, but JCB simply hasn't had a good dealer network in the US for as long as I was in the business or paying attention to the market. They are not a dealer's first choice and are usually an addition to a dealer's main linem which means that they usually arent the salesforce's first choice either. Until they reach a point of becoming the dealer's primary product of choice they will not reach any significant level of market share. Throw in parts availability and price issues they had in the past and it's going to be a very long haul. 2. It is true that NH offered vertical booms before anyone, but it's also true that they were pretty much the only one until Bobcat started. This demonstrates two things- 1) Bobcat is the trend setter in the market place and validated the technology someone else was using in a very short time. 2) Bobcat essentially did this to sell what others didn't have (except for NH and the Deere branded NH). They're not quite the trend setter anymore. I'm not saying that the JCB SSL/CTLs are bad machines, but it is clear that after well over a decade of selling the "Robot" concept it hasn't caught on. This could be for many reasons, but I think it boils down to traditionally poor dealers (not saying you are), poor reliability in the past, high parts pricing in the past and lots of other brand choices that have both higher perceived value and actual higher residual resale values.
but this time jcb has something they never did before, the nicest skid steer on the market. jcb has 2 obstacles to overcome. 1. nobody in the us even knows they exist. 2. not having the vast dealer network. like i did, people will seek out jcb because they like the skid loader. every jcb dealer i have come across is selling lots these skid loaders, the evil plan is working...
Dave...not trying to bust your bubble, but JCB started operations in the US in 1969 and opened their Pooler GA plant around 1998 (15 years ago), and the Robot SSL has been around since the 90s. Why is it you think that nobody knows who they are? I think most people knwo who JCB is. Do you think it could simply be people may think that there are other better built, better performing, and better supported products out there? How long does it take to build a "vast" dealer network so that people with "seek out" JCB specifically because of the their skid steer; it's already been 43 years since they've been selling equipment in the US market, and they introduced the Robot in 1993, 19 years ago. As far as selling lots of skid steers I already stated that their market share in the US was 1% in 2011 after 18 years of selling their skid steer in this market. I don't think it's a bad product, but I think JCB has a really tall mountain to climb in the US market, and they've been at the base of that mountain for 43 years. I'm waiting to see them start putting one foot in front of the other.
ah you see im coming from the ag market. there is nobody i know who knew who jcb was before we got the skid steer around.. they would come to the farm, look at the skid loader and say, "this thing is sweet," then they would say, "who the hell is jcb?" so in 2011 jcb had "1%" of the skid steer market... well i say thats pretty good since the new generation was released in 2010ish. the new machines are hardly a robot. as was stated before, vertical lift counts for "70%" of the skid steer market, so jcb was eliminating 70% of their sales before they even started. bobcat made their name from only skid loaders, so why cant jcb. even if jcb tried building a dealer network, you almost cant compete with a brand like bobcat who has a dealer on every street corner... either way, if you would look at market share where there is a local jcb dealer, you would find it to be much higher than 1%.
Dave...what JCB needs is another 10,000 customers just like you and they'd be fine. Your enthusiasm is admirable. Unfortunately, they're just not there yet. JCB has had over 40 years to put a dealer on every street corner if they had chosen to do so, but the simple fact is that the one armed JCB skid steer (radial or vertical, it doesn't matter) has not captured the US customers' heart the same way it has yours over the 18 years it has been on our shores. There are probably many reasons for this that are known by much more knowledgeable people than me, but I suspect that there are doubts about it's reliability (even with a lifetime warranty), it's ability to be supported by strong dealers, it's history of having high parts prices in the past and a lack of strong resale either through private party or auctions. I may be proven wrong over time (and I really don't have a dog in the hunt), but I just don't see JCB (or Volvo) being a strong player in the US skid steer market.
Dave, the term ROBOT is the name that JCB gave to their skid steers years ago. DigDeep did not coin that. JCB is not going to build a name off of skid steers, especially now. The time to build a name was when the market was selling 100K skid steers a year. Last numbers I saw the market is around 20K. Spread over a lot of players. JCB has the most market penatration in NA with their backhoe. The skid steer market is tough, ask Komatsu, the number 2 OEM in the world in sales and they backed out of it. It will take at least a generation for JCB to be a player in NA (in any capacity) if they get aggressive now. Like I have said before, the vast marjority of operators and owners do not value the inherent safety of JCB skid steer. The fact that since intro (we will excluded the recent release) they have been poor choice (problematic, zero resale, high priced parts, zero support for most of NA and so on) is why they are less than 1%.
Dave, That is exactly the reaction I am getting from Customers.......they cannot believe someone has not thought of something so logical before this. Year to date, I am at 9 JCB skid loaders to each New Holland (and there have never been any dealers here). I get emails daily from dealers wanting to transfer machines for retails.....we need more inventory. The Market share numbers I have for JCB is 3%+ for 2012 (prettymuch the same as companies like Mustang, Gehl, ect) I never delt with the "robot" 1st generation (pre 2011) machines, but from what I have seen, they looked to be built to european ways.....and very crude. I could be wrong, but they don't look very apealing to me.
Agreed Also agreed (excluding the new gen machines, as you noted). Guys, we can argue about how great/terrible the new JCB skid steers/ctl's are until the Internet implodes into a cloud of dust and the world is overtaken by aliens (sorry, just watched the movie "Battleship" last night....I don't really recommend it, however, i DO recommend Brooklyn Decker in a white tank top)....but the truth of the matter is that for years, JCB made a sub-standard product, and did not have a properly focused dealer network (while it is true that JCB has been in the states for years, they did not truly get at-all serious about selling machines here until the 90's, which it then took another almost-10-years to build a factory). I think what is so hard for guys like KSSS and Digdeep to believe (especially from someone like me, who obviously has a vested interest in the brand), is that the new machines are really that good, considering what they know about the old machines. The two are so completely different, it is either a testament to how good the new ones are, or how bad the old ones were.....take your pick. I do, however, disagree with the fact that they cannot make a name for themselves with this new machine. We are seeing it firsthand. Guys who normally wouldn't give JCB the time of day are inquiring and asking for demos. I don't think I have ever sold a product (JCB especially), where I have had as high of success rate to close the deal after a demo. Again, I'm just some guy on the other end of your computer screen, so why on God's Green Earth would you believe what I say....I do, however, think that over the next 3-5 years you will see JCB take away some of the SSL/CTL market share from the "bottom feeders"; i.e. Case, Tak, Gehl, et al. As mentioned, Bobcat is the trend-setter, which is why JCB's parts pricing was benchmarked and compared to them prior to launch. We have seen that our SSL/CTL prices are right in line with everyone else when looked at as a whole. Ok, Rant over....bring on Brooklyn....
Also thought I would comment on this.....you are correct in your statement, the problem was that with the old machines, that was one of the ONLY features we could sell Cabs: Sucked.....too small, terrible fit and finish, didn't tilt, no factory a/c Engine access: Not terrible, not great..... Engine: Perkins....can't hold the jock of the JCB Dieselmax/Ecomax engine Undercarriage: Too short Vertical Lift: Non-existent 2 Speed on Track Units: Nope Parts sourcing/pricing: Machine designed and built in the UK, where they sell virtually ZERO skid steers compared to US....pricing high Compete with a T300: Nope, ROC only up to 2450....sorry But HEY! We have a single boom side-entry that affords class-leading safety and visibility. See how hard that is.....that is the difference now. We have the rest of the machine to go with the single boom design. Whereas before, a customer had to want that one specific option and possibly overlook all the other short-comings, we now can offer, in most cases, class-leading performance and features, and oh, by the way, you can also avoid crawling thru your tree spade or over/around your load guard on your pallet forks and also see everything around you. This is a much better proposition. Now, the single boom side-entry has become icing on the cake for a lot of guys (to go along with the rest of the machine). whew.....ok, Brooklyn, seriously, if you're reading this....NOW I'm ready
JCBiron...all good points. As I stated earlier, I don't think that the current JCB units are bad machines. I merely think that the issue is a "perception" and a "distribution (dealer network)" problem/challenge. Market share will be a big struggle until these two hurdles get jumped. It may very well happen, and competition is good for all of us that own machines because it makes all OEMs strive for better products. I personally have nothing against the product or brand. A prime example of the JCB's brand perception and distribution challenge in the United States is their backhoe. It is the clear global market share leader with about 40% at the end of 2011, yet it only had a 1.3% market share in the US. It has no legacy of being a poor product in the US like the Robot does yet it continues to struggle for market share approaching anything like it enjoys around the rest of the world. The only thing I can pinpoint as holding it back is brand strength and distribution...both a function of a strong dealer network. It is possbile that they are on the right track, and if so, it will be good for all customers. I'm with you on your Brooklyn Decker observations!!!!:notworthy
i suppose i will make a quick reply... i have always been aware of jcb and respected their equipment just because of how innovative it was. like the fastrac farm tractors. the main problem is that their fastracs were never tailored to the us market. they tried to rework them recently and did a good job, but you still cant really traditionally row crop them, which eliminates most of their us market. i will never know what motivates jcb to keep growing. the us is just one country out of hundreds, and since jcb is a privately owned company, the Bamford boys are obviously rolling around in more cash than they could ever know what do do with... so really to them, i can see why they might not care much about penetrating the us market. that being said, the jcb skid steer is a machine that i could simply not resist. at that time i didnt really wanna buy a jcb because we have had so much luck with bobcat, and faced many unknowns about jcb, but i ran across the machine on the internet and instantly thought, i NEED one of these... so we called the local jcb dealer, (at the time they didn't know hardly anything about the new machines; they prolly had sold about 2 robots in the past few years) and told them we want one of these machines as soon as you can get one. so a year and a half later they called and we ordered one without ever seeing one. really the biggest thing that sold me on the jcb was the SAWEEET cab. it quiet (you cant even compare it to a regular skid steer), easy to clean, has no foam interior to fall apart, doesnt rattle, visibility like you wouldnt believe, sweet joysticks, etc. the side entry was just what was said earlier icing on the cake. i could make an endless list of good things about the jcb... that being said, after dealing with jcb and the local dealer, the service and support is just about the only thing that would make me buy a new jcb say endloader. if i was in the market for a new end loader, it would still be hard to buy a jcb, becuase there are no ridiculous advantages of owning the jcb, so for resale reasons, one would definitely consider a cat or deer. but i do like the coffee maker they put in some of the jcb equipment!! on the other hand, if i was looking for a telescopic handler, i would tend to lean towards the jcb for various reasons. so i guess im saying jcb really outdid themselves on the skid loader (naturally), its about the only way i can see for them to make a name for themselves. its a machine people, like me, will simply be forced to buy because they wont see where there is any other option; and then once a customer buys a skid steer, if the service and support is as good as it has been (for me) maybe they will come back to buy larger equipment. on the other hand, if i was buying a new farm tractor, if i had excessive cash, the fastrac is also irresistible. you really cant compare it to a regular tractor. i dont know if its jcbs plan across the board to have exclusively irresistable machines, but its a good idea... but at the same time, lots of ppl are scared of things that are different so maybe in the end its hurting them
i would have to disagree that jcb is going to be taking business from the "bottom feeders." wait till kss hears you said that about case! they will take business from people who are looking for the best. aka all the big names. people, around here, who buy gehl/mustang, which is A LOT of ppl are just farmers who only care about rugged and reliable, and cuz thats what they been runnin since the owatonna days... jcb i think is getting a lot of sales from dealers who carry 2 brands of skid steers. people come in to buy a new holland, and leave with a jcb . that being said, jcb eliminated most of their farm customers by no longer offering hand foot controls which they actually did offer in the first few month of production of the new models.
Dave, I suppose I should have clarified that statement a bit.....ultimately, BC, Cat, and Deere will remain the top three market leaders for the forseeable future (with NH in 4th). What I meant by "bottom feeders" is that I think you will see JCB creep up among those players while the "big three" battle it out at the top. Who knows....maybe 10 years from now they'll all be chasing JCB!!! (....that should get a rise of out some of you!)
I don't know what I would do, faced with the decision of a New Holland or JCB??:crying people come in to buy a new holland, and leave with a jcb .
Thank you for the clarification since I was crafting a response geared toward the bottom feeder response. Last numbers I saw was CASE itself at 13 percent marketshare, I have no idea what NH brings and Deere was the same. DigDeep said it very well. I dont have anything against JCB and I never have. While I am a CASE customer I feel that I am fair in my comments. Apparently other OEMs agree since I am leaving to go overseas for a week (leave next Monday) to provide opinions and feedback on a new product (and its not for CASE). JCB issues in NA are well beyond the product, but with the skid steer line they are fighting a poor history. Perhaps JCB will become known for a quality skid steer, but that will be repairing only one of numerous missing pieces in the puzzle that is JCB America. I don't disbelieve what you say JCBiron, I think there are some cool features of a JCB skid steer that you cant get anywhere else. I could see where farmers could come to appreciate the side door access. Heck I see advantages to it everytime I want to put something in the bucket our take something out and have to elevate the loader arms and cant open the door. So I am sure there are some guys that are signing up for one, but now the machine and the dealer has to deliver, hopefully it does. Meaning you as a CASE dealership have to be stable with the JCB franchise, huge problem for JCB dealerships I have seen. Arnold Machinery used to carry JCB in the West, they sold some backhoes, and even a few skid steers in the area. The dealership was dropped when Volvo came into play, and that resulted in a lot of unhappy JCB owners. There has historically been, at least out West, very little dealer stability with the JCB brand and I think that has been their problem nationwide.
I should have clarified a bit more.....I was referring to SSL/CTL market share only. Those numbers shake out to roughly 33% BC, 20% Cat, 19% Deere, 12% NH, 8% Case....then everyone else. And I agree that making the sale, is only the first step. The machine certainly has to perform, and only time will tell that story. So far, we have had machines running in the field for over a year, and things are looking good. Finally, as I have always stated, JCB's dealer network has been a weak link in the whole mix, and it is improving. Just 4 years ago, their NA dealer coverage was only about 63%. It is now about 85% and they are still working at it (Still weaker in the West than Central/East). Many dealers are stepping up their efforts, myself included..... Keeping focus just because we also happen to be a Case (IH) dealer (....the last Case SSL I sold I had to take back....) shouldn't be an issue.
One last note KSSS.....Leave a couple days early next week and you can swing through STL and we'll make a believer out of you once and for all!
Sounds more tempting on the way back, than on the way there, but I am game.
Any time you want to stop in STL, just let me know....new store should be up and running soon.
Well, I joined this forum after reading this whole thread. Really, enjoyed the civility and integrity based arguments within. For what it's worth, I had never heard of JCB till today. A fella has one for sale locally that I was planning on demoing this weekend. It's a 2005 1110T, bought new in 2007 with 1250 hrs., had new tracks at 1000 hrs., comes with a new Bradco grapple bucket, rake, non-toothed bucket, and pallet forks for $21K. Looks clean, kept inside, and sounds like a good deal, but after reading this thread and researching the new generation machines, I've kind of soured on it. I have only owned a Bobcat 773 and never a tracked machine, so I'm kind of new to this world. Would really like a cab, since I will be using the CTL mainly with an open brush cutter. Please let me know if you think this is some kind of homerun deal. TIA
JCB is from the UK, they manufacture a variety of construction machines .They are in the top 3 of manufacturers making construction plant on 4 continents.They have been doing this for 67 years.I am a big fan of JCB having used the TBL as an owner driver.Excellent products!,,:notworthy:drinkup,, http://www.jcb.co.uk/About.aspx
Boy, that sure is true, in more ways than I care to get into. It has serious ramifications for our nation and the world. I've been reading up on CTL's, etc., and if anything is true it's that nothing is best and everything has it's problems. I'm more confused than ever. I think I may just rent one when I need one, as much as I know it will suck to not have a machine at the ranch 24/7. You know what this place could use? A definitions page: CTL (Compact Track Loader), MTL, SOB . It get's real confusing when so many companies have so much creativity. Too bad they can't standardize the industry. Speaking of that, why isn't the U.S. metric and why do Brits still drive on the wrong side of the road? LOL You know, all this change is coming. It may not come for a thousand years but it is coming. I'll bet my left nut that there will even be some sort of world government at some distant point - with present countries remaining semi-autonomous Change is happening and it is accelerating - it is inevitable. BTW, somewhere out there, there is an asteroid with our name on it so I wouldn't get too worked up about whatever pisses you off. Have a nice day and be thankful for what you have. Now, if I could only find a CAT 299D XHP for $20 grand.
Ron: I couldn't agree more...but that's a common problem with a great many things. Unfortunately, you have to make tradeoffs. See my upcoming thread on "User Improvements to New Holland L220 SSL & Attachments" detailing my work on improving the NH L220 I bought last fall. Despite that, I still dream of a CTL w/ a side-entry JCB cab, 17.7" wide turf tracks over an ASV-style suspension system, at least 12" or more of ground clearance, NH-style cab-operated boom lock & a somewhat cushioned boom stop on the bottom, an easy, assisted cab tilt, a NH-style rear drawbar w/ over/under receiver tubes, integral side lights like a Case, very easy filter access like a combination of Cat & JCB w/ NH-style remote engine oil drain & filter mount, integral external rear view mirrors, a bright interior light w/ an auto-on switch position tied to the door opening, & on & on.... Might be nice, but there really aren't THAT many, & after you spend some time immersed in SSL/CTL looking & reading this HEF, the definitions start to become clear. Hell the car industry can't even standardize electrical connections....& they been at it a lot longer!!! Amen to that...should have done it 20 to 30 years ago & by now it would have been 2nd nature. As it is, almost all products (cars, equipment, etc) have long ago gone completely metric, & now we're struggling with both systems, 2 sets of wrenches/tools, multiple bolt/screw inventories.... It's insane!! You can blame Congress, as usual. You're not just dreaming, you're in an alternate reality!!
What goofy question - why not ask how long anything would last if you dump battery acid on it - eat your hearts our all you Bobcat / Cat /Case etc. owners - the side door is the best thing that ever happened to a skidsteer - looks like a lot of posters here are just that and have no idea what real world loader work is like - In one day on a job, I might jump off a loader 100 times moving roots, rocks, picking up, dumping trucks, talking to other contractors, etc. and climbing out of a coventional skidsteer slippery muddy bucket or climbing over a load or better yet climbing out with the load over your head is dangerous and non productive period. Don't know knock JCB they are the ones who are changing skidsteers for all you guys out there to make them better and safer. Price wise they are no more expensive and they have the only tier 4 without the fuel sucking fire hazard DPF muffler. Open your eyes its time to move up from the model A skidsteer fire trap cages with obstacles stopping us from getting some fresh air. Thanks
Interesting machines. I must admit I find myself intrigued however, for now I think I shall stick with my CAT equipment and more importantly my CAT dealer....and observe from a distance how this plays out for JCB and their equipment and their dealer network and support to the end user. After all , at the end of the day that's where the rubber meets the dirt...
Yep even though these machines seldom break unless you're doing something stupid its nice to have a good dealer near-by. I live in Ga where these machines are hatched! Have a great weekend Mike
i have finally come around and decided to buy a second new style jcb or volvo skid steer to team up with the current 205. this time a large frame. I'm hoping to get one cheap at an auction because I'm the only one around who knows how sweet they are... also I'm looking to put duals on the front tires since the steel tracks won't work on it; assuming they make such a thing.
i have to admit that jcb and company keeps continuing to impress me. they randomly called me up today (the dealer) to update my machine (without asking). normally the jcb has the standard controls. iso pattern, not adjustable. they came out and did the big software update. now i have 3 drive/boom modes to choose from via buttons on the dash on the go, and now i have the sweet auto idle feature too! along with the ability to purchase h pattern unlock. i was pretty much used to the standard controls. but since it was new my only problem with the controls was that it took so much time to dump into a truck, turn around and head back for another bucket load. they definitely solved this problem, now it turns more like the old bobcat where it will whip right around no problem. i am looking forward to spending more time in the machine to see if they have it perfected...
Dave...just yanking your chain, but are you sure it was random? Maybe they called all of their North American SSL customers....it wouldn't take that long You know I'm kidding. Glad you're happy with the new hystat response settings.
Even though OTTs won't work on a new style JCB/Volvo because of the low cut side door, you could just get a tracked model...yea, I know, it's more expensive. But, I'm intrigued by your idea of duals for the front tires...Let me know how this works out...If not duals, maybe wide, fat tires??
BAZINGA! That was a good one....I'll give you that.
Got a surprise package from our JCB dealer today, 7/30/2014. It's the hose I ordered just 4/22/2014 For our Robot 185 This is the second one they shipped, the first one came in in a few days but had one of the ends 180º off from the position it should have been. Took that one back to dealer and after waiting a couple weeks was told the main warehouse had shipped the second one but could not find where it went:Banghead As I was getting tired of walking around this dead machine I took the failed original hose to our local Aeroquip dealer and in the matter of 15 minutes had one in my hand Best thing is the hose dealer and the JCB dealer are maybe 1/2 mile apart. In the mean time management finally approved sending the boom out to a machine shop to have the bucket end line bored that came back just yesterday. Good news is the linkage for the bucket is all nice and tight, bad news is due to how bad it was from lack of grease the only way to fix it was to make all new pins and bushings even to the point of machining the trunion mounts for the tilt cylinder under-size and make new bushings to fit the four connecting rods that hold the tilt cylinder. So nothing at the bucket end of the boom is stock sizes anymore. But for now everything is nice and tight. Now if I could just convince guys who run machine to grease the bucket linkage every time it is used it might just last till I retire early next year
I giggled a little too. Since we're on the JCB topic, I signed up to demo one. They were offering $100 gas cards to the first 350 people. They didn't put a time that could come first so this deal may last awhile. I'll see if they follow through.
I also have a demo to do dealer is trying to find a new machine for us to demo they have hardly any in stock and from what he told me the girl who started this demo thing for a $100 gas card left the marketing co so they where trying to figure out what was going on with it. that is what I was told. what are the pros and cons for these machines rubber tire not track how do they compare to the deere e series besides the side door? also how is heat and defrost in the winter ?
i will make a few random comments. the jcb would be much quieter in the cab than the deere. the deere air ride seat is nicer than the jcbs. can't run tracks on a wheeled jcb. check into emissions solutions on the deere. heat is good, defrost seems to be acceptable on the jcb. jcb has electric controls only. there really is not a lot of cons to the jcb i would say demo one for as long as possible and if you like it buy it.
ah yes that was a funny joke! so my analysis on the software update is that even in mode 1 the joysticks are too aggressive for my liking now since i am used to the machine being a bit lethargic and relaxed. i will probably have them change it back to the old software mainly because the old man can't drive it now since its different. i will be interested to hear what durally thinks about the software and how it compares to the cat, assuming he gets one with the latest update.
Hello I have a fairly new JCB 225 track loader and i have some mechanical noise coming from the the tracks on both sides - could it be the tension is too loose - anyone else hear a noise like this?
Alerted by durallymax's post, I signed up last week for the $100 gas card-JCB demo thing. I did the demo yesterday at the local JCB dealer's yard of a 260T. They also had a slightly older 225 I looked at, but didn't spend any time on. I will post my summary/comments as soon as I get a chance.
I'll let you know if I ever hear back from them. I am assuming it is someone from corporate who called me at first as they were from many states away. They called from a restricted number and I didn't answer. Left a voicemail which I thought I saved but must have deleted. So I called the local dealer assuming they were the ones who called. They were very confused it seemed and through phone tag gave me about 3 different people that were supposed to be the person for my territory. The repeater in our shop was broken at the time so I missed a lot of calls. Never did get ahold of anyone. Awhile later the restricted number called again and I answered. He took down some info but didn't seem to know much about SSL's. He said someone locally would follow up. Haven't heard anything since. Dealer must know about the program though, its advertised on their big sign. I know they are "new" around here, so I still give them the benefit of the doubt for being so disorganized. Doesn't change how the machine itself is, but does influence a purchase decision. One of the main reasons I like dealing with Cat is their extreme level of organization. They have been around for a long time though and had awhile to perfect their system. From reading wally's post and talking with the guy on the phone, I get the impression that these are not serious demos. Just some time to drive one around the dealer lot. I told the Bobcat guy the same thing, I'm not interested in a machine we can't demo for a couple days doing real work with the real operators. Me driving it at the lot doesn't mean a lot and I'm not rounding everyone up just to go down there and drive it around. That was what got Cat's foot in the door to begin with, an actual serious demo that gave you more than enough time to get a feel for things. At the time Cat stopped out I was not interested at all, but they offered the demo and I'm always open to trying something. Even then I was still leaning towards Bobcats and not because of any sort of influence from the Bobcat dealer. To me both machines we good, but Bobcat had foot controls. I reached out to Bobcat for a demo and pricing, was told they do not do demos even on used machines(of course that story is different if you ask them now). I'm sure if I would've tried someone else, or pushed harder I would've gotten one, but why? Why should I work for the dealer when another one is working for me? In a way I reached out to Bobcat and Cat reached out to me. Had the tables been turned I am 99% certain you would see Bob in front of the Cat in my pictures. Without a doubt. Like I said though, to me both machines were equally good in their own ways, one dealer was willing to work for business, the rest were not (well our NH dealer was good, but the product wasn't). It left an impression, and they got the business.
well I was able to get a 4 hour demo on one at my location they where having a hard time locating a new one for me to try when or if it gets here I will see how they are. not much time to really get to know what it can do . they did want to let me demo an old model for longer time but if I have to do that why bother I have a machine now I don't need a rental.
well we got a 175 eco to demo to demo at our location . right now there are some pros and cons to it and some things I'm not used to with the servo controls. you can get to most all filters and belt oil is deep inside but cartridge so not to bad oil drain no port to outside you have to drop a plate and take pug off inside. this machine is just shy of every option. heats well cools well a lot of button pushing to even get it to move. I tried it one night with cold we had the inside fogged up and all full with vents trained at windows would not clear up fast or at all . other than getting to the filters don't know how you would do any other work inside the engine compartment the tilting cab is good for the chain and other pumps but nothing on the engine side at least on this model. air ride seat not what I was expecting for the additional money this machine has the driving kit and the lights are bright but I think not all working as only 1 bulb will light up in the front light out of the three unless I'm not pushing the right buttons maybe on the stick as it has aux hydro and multi function controls.
yes the air seat is a joke i will give you that; it actually is a regular nice air seat, but they have it rigged so it isn't much nicer than the mechanical seat. did you have the ac on when you were defrosting the windows? if you have the latest software on the joysticks, I can see why you don't like the controls. i guess you could ask them if you have any options for changing it/but you would want another demo if they did. it seems to me the access plate on the bottom of the machine to access the drain plug is not a terrible system; its simple and effective. i think its a 500 hour change interval. as far as pushing buttons to get the machine moving, its easier if you push both buttons with 2 fingers at the same time.
I think when I had it defrosting I had it half and half on the temp control but no a/c on only because it was cold out . not a bad machine but not one I'm use to using as far as the servo controls .
So your used to t bars? Making the switch from mechanical controls to electric is hell
Yes T bar controls and it was a pain not that id I had enough seat time I could master but I don't think you get the level of feel with the electronic controls.
You don't, but that's also the nice part about them. You are in much better shape at the end of the day being isolated from the vibrations, having controls that move with you, and running small joysticks with low resistance and small hand movements. Its a tradeoff, operator comfort for operator comfort haha. Access plate for a drain plug wouldn't bug me at all, always had them. Our NH machines all did and so do all of the cats. 4 bolts on NH, two bolts on Cat and they are off. Does Gehl use a hose like Bobcat? I hate those, I can take the plate off and on faster than I can wait for that slow hose to drain. NH went to a drain hose on their new machines as well. I'd give you more input on the JCB, but still haven't heard back. Did hear back from what I assume is the "corporate" guy, checking in to see if I was contacted, said he was going to straighten it out with the dealer. Still haven't heard from them. Tried renting a telehandler with the possibility of buying one later on at said dealer recently as well but they had nothing, didn't seem to bug them much so I ended up getting a Cat. I needed an Ag style machine which is not as common, but it is a category I think JCB is at the top of their game in along with Manitou. I was hoping to get a JCB instead of a Cat to be honest, but the dealer is really leaving a bad impression. You would think being the new guy in the area with a big new store they would be out selling the stuff.
the oil drain is nice with the Gehl a plug on one side for oil and one on the other side for hydro . very fast to drain no plates, hoses the only problem is filter placement but one trade off for the other I guess. you would think that your dealer would be trying to sell them so far my guy has really been pretty good getting a machine dropping it off at my location and letting me demo it for a good amount of time under real conditions .
After talking WI th then at WDE I finally got an on farm Demo of a 205 setup for next week.
i would be surprised if you do not think this machine is nice. i do not think you are going to like it in a short demo more than a cat d series. that is the only other machine i would consider purchasing other than another jcb. what specifically did they change on the joysticks from c to d.
Don't know specifically what they did but the response is amazing on the D series. All of us have had to turn then down whereas with the c series we always left it maxed. Hydraulics are a lot faster too which helps,
The D series CAT 's are by far the best CTL I have ever run...There is no way on Gods green earth I would pick a JCB over a CAT for multiple reasons....not even in the same league in my opinion...but each to their own .....
Upon the release of the new Jcb skid steer, they were the clear winner for having the sweetest skid steer loader. Since the release of the d series the lines are a bit more blurred. The ctl side entry version is not quite as sweet as the wheeled machine. The only problem I have w cat now is the glass inside the screen, the slightly cramped cab, and the giant step to enter the machine. I assume cab noise is not existent. There is no local dealer for cat construction so...
as far as the bobcat not having a flat floor. that is something i have never noticed before. on the contrary, i like the nice wide stance you have when you drive a bobcat. the cat setup is too narrow much like the old case machines where you have to sit more like a girl when you drive. at the same time it may be nice to have 2 levels on your floor to rest your feet on when you get tired of one level. so after driving the 570 and being impressed with the headlights, the cat d lights do not seem that they would throw any light straight downward where you need it. also, why does cat make me pay so much for the options i want. i could not care less about having the computer screen with all the gadgetry and the return to dig shenanigans n such; i don't see how that would even work since when do you always have your bucket angle the same when you move a pile of dirt. i want soft ride and adjustable controls thats it. at one of the local shows the cat dealer had the standard 2500 lb lift vertical machine "ag special" for $39,000 with 2 speed and ac, which would normally be a good price but once you add the air seat soft ride and adjustable controls who knows how high you would be. and y is the ac option on the 242d 3k?! at another local show i asked cat why they cost more money, he said they have a premium product... not really it all comes down to $$ in the end. one thing you won't like about the 205 jcb is how you have to push a button to turn soft ride on; i would suspect the speed activated system would work out pretty well. of corse it is not half as bad as having to hold the button! i think if they gave you a 1 or 2 month demo in the jcb you would be more likely to switch brands. doesn't the bucket dip when soft ride turns on? is the full time suspension on the cat ctl somehow not a problem like it would seem to be? and whats wrong with bobcat advantage!? the difference between the cat utube vids and the bobcat ones is that bobcat is hilarious! i can't really speak for the cat ctl, but the 205 jcb is absolutely in the same league as the 242d, with the exception of having less hp.
Dave I like the wide stance of the bobcat also and low roof line, easier to get under a door than the Cat. But I found that with Bobcat you had to add in the cost of a air ride seat (which was non heated) and the SJC controls to equal the Cat which comes standard with the controls and a air ride heated seat. Cat also had ride control standard and Bobcat it was a **option. The Cat I spec'd wasnt a 'ag special' though either, so maybe that had something to do with it. Not really sure what a ag special is/consists of. In the end the Cat was a few hundred more than the Bobcat and the bobcats ride control wasnt even included in the quote. So not much in my view to throw in favor of one over the other when it came to pricing. ((**Bobcats brochure says its a option, but when you check their website and spec one out I dont see any option to include ride control ??))
If anyone is interested in buying a Volvo version of the JCB, there are about 50 of them going through Iron Planet on the 10-30-14. They appear to be out of Texas mostly. There you go Dave, probably get it one for half the price of the BC even with shipping.
there is a lot of sweet stuff on iron planet. it appears that all those volvo machines are probably going to be low spec rental machines... but i would imagine down the road if sweet loaded ones are going cheap i will have to pick up a couple of them it would be the best value in town. really buying a new skid steer makes little sense if low hour used ones are going for half price... there is so much sweet equipment to be had these days i could probably use a tele handler for fun as well. the ag special is just a machine with no computer screen, a mechanical vinyl seat. and i doubt soft ride. how does soft ride work if you don't have amics. button on joystick would be ideal.
Dave, you say there is no local dealer for cat construction?? I'm lost. AG special is simply a special price for the ag market. The machine specs will vary, most have a decent amount of options. AG specials can have the nice seats, display, etc etc. Return to dig has nothing to do with the advanced display, it's an additional option the dealer needs to activate. Loading dirt is one of the times where your bucket angle is always the same and would benefit from RTD. This is assuming you are loading out of a pile. Go to a quarry and see what they think of return to dig. I'm not saying it's worth it in a skid steer but it has its place and I use it all the time on loaders. IIRC you do not need the display for ride control on the D series but I could be wrong. Without the display you have to have the dealer adjust the speed it engages it. Ride control is turned on and off with a switch. When it's turned on it automatically engages at the preset speed and disengages when you go below that speed. An indicator will light up when it is engaged. The LCD screen is a few hundred dollars. I wouldn't call that terribly expensive for what you get. I'd love to give an opinion on the JCB but once again the dealer has gone silent.
So after reading this entire thread I went out and demoed a new Volvo/JCB track skid loader. It was the largest model made and was fully loaded. Pro's about the machine would be fuel consumption, visibility (with exception, see con), very quiet cab, side entry, roomy, no dpf or urea, no boom flex to the unsupported side and I was ripping hard frost, like the mode control for bucket/arm speed. However the con's were pretty substantial. When the bucket is stressed while in a vertical scraping mode it flexes back and hits the track..yikes, the ground clearance was very low and it would high center easily when stacking dirt on a pile, you are unable to see the front of the tracks when pulling up to walls, the cab obstructs your view when loading trucks, the 2 speed has a 1 to 2 second delay when shifting and does it differently each time which is very frustrating when you want to down shift going into a pile and it even stops sometimes to make the shift, the boom has some serious side to side play and it was brand new, significant delay in drive control joystick when operating quickly, no view of Left side track unless the arm is lifted, hard to see bucket edges due to large front plastic cover at the front window. I hate to be so negative with this machine because I was really impressed with the motor and non-emissions and the side entry. I think this is a great machine for snow removal, landscaping, and moderate digging but for a serious excavator who runs his/her machine hard this unit does not hold up. For a farm or home owner it would be great but for heavy usage I just don't believe it would hold up. I currently have a Takeuchi TL140 and this machine is a tank, I bought it used as a rental machine with 3500 hours and it runs strong with the hardest work I throw at it, I love the excavator style door, especially when you have to get in and out a lot and on the nice days. The visibility in my machine is just as good or even better as well. The JCB/Volvo has a great usage in a niche market but does not meet the needs for excavation usage. This review comes from 12 hours of operation digging and backfilling a foundation with a lot of frost to rip. For those that bash the machine and have never operated it I say give it a try. For me I will be buying a new Takeuchi this year, the units are extremely solid, have been tried and true since their first model and seem to rarely break down. I also have a Takeuchi mini-x which pound for pound destroyed all the other brands when I demoed. Would love to hear comments from JCBIRON. Thanks guys
Did it feel like it was powerful? Good tractive effort? How about bucket breakout?
i know you asked for that other guy, but for now looks like all you are getting is me! i can't say i disagree entirely with your review. to begin with i have never been as big of an advocate for the track jcbs. the bucket hitting the track does seem like a problem. but your review is not totally fair because the tak is a radial machine and the jcb i assume was vertical. i would definitely recommend the radial machine for tough use, but if your doing exclusively dozer type work i would probably recommend the tak for you. somehow, and unbelievably, the vertical boom is not quite perfect like i was expecting it to be, because when you are selling a one armed machine, its going to be highly scrutinized, so one would think getting it perfect would be priority one. as far as the side to side movement, its true that it is there and does seem to get worse with time (our machine has 1500 hours on it), but is it a problem? to some maybe, to me i just accept it as part of the pros and cons of having a one armed machine. it is definitely true that if everyone grew up on a jcb and some new company came out with a standard skid steer everyone would laugh and never buy it. for me it all comes down to being comfortable in the drivers seat, that is my main objective. i spend 1000 hours a year in the machine and get in and out 10s of 1000s of times; as long as everything else seems to work i am happy. sure the boom is not perfect, but it still seems to go up and down and dump without any problems. until the competition starts making quiet machines with roomy cabs and better ergonomics and such i am not very interested in them. the cats seem to be coming close but their cabs are not very roomy. our new bobcat pretty much sits in the shed all the time because it is too loud and hard to drive. although the visibility to the cutting edge is impressive on the bobcat. which leads me to my next point... when you have the jcb and the bobcat next to each other and compare them, the jcb is almost identical as far as the front window location and dimensions and the wiper motor location, but where the jcb "looses" out in cutting edge visibility is because the cab is 6 inches longer or so, so you sit back in the cab another 6 inches, which puts you that much further away from the cutting edge. so if one would move the seat ahead all the way i would imagine the visibility might improve. but i am not willing to sacrifice my lounging capabilities for cutting edge visibility. as far as not being able to see any of the tires really, at first that bothered me, but after a few months i got used to it. because the machine is so different, it takes some getting used to. as far as breaking up frost, i do a few acres of that every year on the cow yards. when the bucket is in vertical position lots of times the relief will activate on the tilt cylinder, prematurely in my opinion, generally i try to stop before the cylinder is fully extended and I'm still pushing that just seems like it might break something but a few times i have not been quick enough. i find the 2 speed activation works great on my machine, much better smoother and nicer than the bobcat. I haven't done an official test yet, but I'm guessing the jcb uses less than half the fuel the bobcat does. partially because with the bobcat you have to be running full throttle for it to do anything and the jcb is usually running less than half throttle, adding even more to the quietness.
What model Bobcat? We just went through this game this fall. Tried a Cat, Case, Kubota, and Bobcat. We ended up with a T770 Bobcat. Hated the Case, Cat was $14,000 higher, and Kubota had a terrible cab. I'm a big guy, I love the Bobcat cab. Just as quiet as a Cat, no huge wall to climb over. I suppose it makes a difference, we have joystick controls. I ran them all for 6-8 hrs, the Kubota controls were excellent as well, but the Cat controls were a bit unpredictable. I will agree I am a bit displeased with the two-speed on my Bobcat. But, I don't agree with the throttle statement.
i actually kind of like the kubota cab... once you manage to get in it, and with having the machine off; hating the door is a given. would it really be that hard to offer both style doors? the seat seems to be sweet and the cab seems to be roomy. the seating position did feel a bit awkward but probably something you would get used to. we have the bobcat 570 with standard controls; a sweet ride if your looking to be ultra productive and quick. if the cat cab is as loud as the bobcat, the cat must be super loud. our bobcat doesn't have all the foam and such in it because nobody wants to deal with it. the bobcat is fairly easy to get in and out of i will give them that. the machine is huge compared to the jcb for being the same size. the jcb running at half throttle i would say has the same cab sound level as a later model diesel pickup truck, no foam needed.
They must really be different the bigger you get, because we do not think the Bobcat (or the Cat, for that that matter) is loud at all. I'm no sound engineer, but I'm going to guess 15-20 decibels quieter than the Kubota or Case? It was very noticeable. And you seemed to get some weird hydraulic feedback (noise) when pushing the hydros. We did like the roominess, just not the layout of the Kubota.
its possible that the bigger ones are quieter, but without a modular cab, i don't think they are going to be able to compete in the sound department. granted our bobcat does not have the "quieter" doosan engine, but if nothing is done to address hydro noise i don't see how a quiet engine is going to make much difference. the jcb would be somewhere between 68 and 72 decibels when I'm running it, i would bet the bobcat is well over 100 i would not be surprised if its pushing 110. then that compounds with the extra hydro noise and all the sweet therapeutic vibrations coming from the seat and all the controls it makes for quite the ride. i did call the dealer and asked him why its so loud he said they got everything turned up so much on them that its just impossible to tame the sound. it reminds me of riding in an old school turbo prop airplane, or in a tank. but somehow it is still a sweet ride. i did notice the sweet climate control buttons on the kubota are under the lap bar, something I'm willing to overlook.
Quiet engine is only a small part of the noise. The CNH machines have a very quiet engine, but the hydro noise is unbearable. Manual controls may play a larger role in it as well. IIRC your Bobcat has manual controls or ACS. Our CNH machine that was loud also did. A tight modular cab does help I think, especially when the machines get to be 10 years old with thousands of hours piled on them. The D series Cat cabs don't look a lot different, but they got rid of most of the joints by forming single pieces and that seems to have helped quiet the cab down even more. I'd love to comment on the JCB but gave up on them. I'm not going to chase the salesman around and beg to demo one anymore. I tried, they dropped the ball multiple times. Oh well.
Its like I have always preached, the dealer and service before and more importantly after the sale is the single most important factor when purchasing any equipment. If the sales staff does have the time and common sense to even Demo a new piece of equipment then they surely won't be there for you after the sale of when a problem arises. I agree the D series CAT are very awesome units in many regards, thatswhy I own and run CAT iron.
cat seems to be offering 242ds with cab and ac for 250 a month for 60 months. doesn't sound like a bad deal to me but 5 years is a long time! so surprisingly the michelin tires have 700 hours on them, and still have more tread than new bobcat tires. i don't know how they do it, but the tires ride smoother, have more traction, and apparently last forever. got them for 300 bucks a tire so at this point they are a fabulous deal. no flats either. ic jcb is offering them on new machines now. so i have logged almost 2000 hours on the jcb and my final analysis is it probably isn't as "good" as a bobcat in terms of reliability and toughness, but I don't see how i would handily be able to switch to another brand any time soon. the easy and just plain convenient side entry, visibility, fuel consumption, no effort controls, ergonomics, climate control, small size, ease of cleaning, and quiet and large cab seem to offset any of the problems i have with it like the less than perfect eh. i guess it comes down to price if the jcb is 10k more than another brand when i try to trade, it would be hard to pay that much of a premium. but i see 242ds are listed for 55k these days! outrageous! our jcb dealer is excellent.
We don't lease, the outright prices on them are very good deals especially since you are in Ag and should qualify for an Ag machine. Listed prices and what you will pay are two very different things. 242D is nowhere near 55k even without the Ag program. In some areas of the country they may sell plenty high, but thats irrelevant as you are in the same region here with good pricing. The Bibsteels do last a long time. The 12" last substantially longer. The set of 12's I put on our 242B3 have just about 2,000hrs on them now. The first 1k they spent in the barn and on gravel the last 1k has been on a warehouse floor primarily. Still have a decent amount of tread on them. The 10" set I put on our 226B3 only made it about 1,200hrs. Putting a set of 12's on it now as long as the operators don't have any issues with the larger ones. The price difference is so small its worth it for twice the life.
Hey, this looks like the site for me. Just finished reading through most of your guys posts. I see JCB has come out with a Forestmaster- any idea why the HP is so low? I run a Cat 287c, and my drive sprocket keeps building up with ice in the winter. Anyone ever experienced this problem? Either way- im potentially looking for a new track loader. Has anyone ran a JCB with a mulching head? Thanks for any and all advice!
for what its worth , we had 13 260's and 3 160's for snow plowing and now we don't. just sayin!
So don't just stop there...give us some reasons & details...were they all or some of the "new generation" models??...what exactly was wrong with them or what went wrong with them?? And, what did you replace them with, & how are they in comparison??
Please expand on your comments ? What was the issue(s) ? It's a big statement to make without a basis Or explanation and really can't be taken seriously left open ended like you did.....so with that in mind, Please tell us more if you want to be taken seriously by the members here in the future...
Well I tried to buy 175 Eco that has been sitting on the dealer or since last summer with 15 hours on it that put on trying it out last summer and just could not buy it. They gave me crap for my trade and then didn't really discount the new machine. From what is see the price went way down on older machines that where used for 2-3 years.
overall poor design, the only option we liked was the side entrance. all the glass cracked. lack of power, the 160's were always our of service for one thing or another. we have stayed with bobcat ever since. by the way we had all new machines in 2009 and sent them all back and received all new machines in 2010 and ended up sending them all back. i hope this helps.
Thanks Dan for the explanation. Sounds like they were some real POS machines. Glad you moved to the Bobcat's and never looked back....
Thanks for the additional info & reasons...but judging by the years you mentioned. it's quite possible all those "new" machines were the older Robot models, & not the "new generation" models, which I think came out in 2011 or so. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I wonder what kind of operators were in those JCB machines, some who are pro Bobcat etc will beat the crap out a machine that doesn't have the big name while operating the big name machine the way it should be. Cracked glass points to that. A friend of mine has a JCB which works good.
Also give me a Bobcat or any brand and I can have it broke down fast if I want to, no machine is will last with a bad operator
How do they hold there value for resale ?
Not very well.
exactly!!!!!!!!!!!! True, but some machines hold up better than others and thats what you look for.
I have a friend with a 773 Bobcat and he showed me all the places where the arms broke, does that mean it's a bad machine, no just a rough operator. Far as resale I sure wouldn't buy a new one unless I planned on keeping it for 10000 hour but used ones can be a real good value due to the lower resale.
You would be one of the very, very, very few customers who runs a skid steer to 10,000 hours. I sold skid steers for a living and I can tell you that a one owner 10,000 hour SSL is few and far between.
Good operators can be hard to find. Especially in some jobs. Other jobs a good operator is over qualified. In a perfect world everyone would be a perfect operator that cared, but that's not the world. Hard enough to find people to work as it is. No machine should be expected to last forever when abused, but some hold up better than others and that can be a factor in some people's purchases. If buying a machine for yourself that will be your "baby" it's not a big factor but if you're buying it for a bunch of different people to jump in it that don't care, then it matters. Neither is really right or wrong, just different environments and perspectives. 10k is a rare number to hit. We have an old LS170 with 10,200hrs on it now, bought new in 01 and only gets about 20 minutes a day put on it now. You'd be hard pressed to find many machines with that high of hours especially outside of dairies. Even then most get rid of them before then and they go to a 2nd owner cheap that doesn't rack the hours up.
as far as pushing buttons to get the machine moving, its easier if you push both buttons with 2 fingers at the same time.[/QUOTE] Thanks, that never occurred to me to push both at the same time!
JCB 170 bucket control While using a JCB 170 skid steer the, the bucket control completely quit. Is there a fuse or something else that could have gone bad on the machine? How do I trouble shoot this problem?
Can you start a new post so everyone sees so we can get an answer? When my Ford 6700 bucket would not rise my cousin told me to accelerate, but I'm fairly sure yours is another problem, keep us posted?
Help I don't know how to start a new thread. I have looked and I don't see where to go.
he might need more posts before it will allow him to start one .
Progress on trouble shooting There is a fuse, it is fuse A1. There is a short on this circuit. just trying to figure out where the wires are connected and which one is shorted or if it is one of the connected devices.
so its been a year or so since we traded the 2013 jcb 205 in on the bobcat 2016 s595 joystick machine so i figured i would do another review. basically, i just drive the old manual controlled 2013 bobcat s570 machine most of the time because the old school classic hand foot machine is the only way to go. the 595 pretty much sits in the shed and looks pretty. unless your driving for 12 hours a day, joystick machines are pretty much a joke. i will fight this claim to the death. the sjc on the bobcat is much better than the jcb ever was, but for old school dairy farming operations joysticks really don't work out. lots of local dairy farmers have tried non hand foot machines, but they always end up going back to manual hand foot. the local bobcat dealer scoffs at joysticks, and almost refuses to sell them for good reason; and it is very rare to see an sjc machine on his lot, unless its an all wheel steer machine. the jcb cab was amazingly ergonomic and comfortable. the bobcat cab has much to be desired. sjc lever effort and throw is terrible, and the cab is definitely not luxurious like the jcb was. bobcat machine itself is better than jcb was though. jcb machine was a great luxury cruiser for the gentleman hobby farmer who doesn't have to get much done fast, and always keeps his equipment under warranty. the bobcat s595 is more of an appliance machine most joystick guys will be able to hop in and get work done no trouble at all. but at the end of the day you will find me in the loud raddly kubota powered classic bobcat because that is the unit that gets stuff done fast. added benefit on new bobcats: 25% lower manual lever effort; finally a decent factory ride control option. but on a bobcat, you don't really need ride control because of the smooth riding nature of a bobcat. in the end if a guy would put the jcb cab on a bobcat machine, that would be what you would want. if you really want a joystick machine.