I have gotten about a years worth of occasional use since I replaced the charge pump and cleaned the control valve and pickup screen (see this thread for that story here: HeavyEquipmentForums ) At that time I found clutch friction material clogging the pickup screen for the transmission's charge pump and my transmission has been gradually slipping more and more over the last year. It's time to pull the trans and replace the clutch frictions as well as inspecting the rest of the transmission. I have the backhoe up on jackstands all around. It's 35" up at battery compartment (manual recommends at least 34".) I plan to start on it the morning (Monday). Any suggestions, advice, comments, are appreciated. MG, I'm counting on you buddy! I cannot find it, but didn't you recommend I pull the hydraulic tank to do this?
Hey JL, Procedure says to remove the hydraulic tank. Then you would use a hoist to lower transmission to the floor. I instead use an OTC 2000 lb transmission jack to lower the transmission. Saves a lot of labor by not removing the tank. You might need 37" at the bottom of the battery compartment if you use a transmission jack. If you don't have one I am sure the rental houses have them to rent.
I do not have a transmission jack and at 500 lbs I guess I'm stuck with pulling the hyd tank. I did make some good progress today in spite of breaking a tooth last night and going to the dentist for that today. I drained hyd tank and transmission. Removed Hyd Pump, all hydraulic lines and dipstick tube. Removed drive shafts, gear shifter, and inspection plate at torque converter. Removed all electrical. Tomorrow I plan to remove Hyd. tank and transmission. Whats the best way to lock the engine for removing the torque converter bolts? Thought I might try a pry bar in the flywheel teeth, but I'd be sick to break a tooth there too!
Holding the flywheel by the teeth with a large screwdriver will be fine. That is how I do it. My project first thing yesterday morning...look familiar?
I'm not nearly as neat as you! I want that jack! I got the hyd. tank out and had to spent quite a bit of time cleaning the top of the trans bell housing. It was about 2" deep in some places. Pulling that tank is a real pain in the ***, but I don't see how you can pull the trans without doing it? Those cooling lines on top buried in rock hard chirt! I'm hoping to actually pull the trans in the morning.
Got it pulled. Torque converter wanted to stay connected to crank. That was some added fun.
Just a quick update on this. Had to work these last couple of days. I have the transmission in the basement of the house and have been cleaning the outside of it. I hope to split it this weekend and if I will post some pictures of that. I managed to pull on the rubber fuel return line pretty hard while lowering the trans so I plan to replace that. Is that 5/16" size fuel line? Thanks.
I bought this one two years ago. I wish I had bought it twenty years ago ! https://www.harborfreight.com/autom...-lbs-low-profile-transmission-jack-60240.html
That's a good looking jack. I think for this machine I need it to go a little higher though. Might could weld up a bracket that adds 4 or 5 inches.
I use wood 4x4's and 6x6's.
Got the trans split and it really looks good.
Only problem I see is the clutch material clogging the screen..
I thought it was interesting that the seal and dust cover for the MFWD driveshaft stayed on the shaft with the case removed. What's the best way to handle that? I assume it would be best to replace those parts, but how do you go back in with the new ones? Come up with a seal driver and install both from the outside after its all back together?
Yes I would replace the seal and shield. JDG1057 ($160) driver is used to set the seal to the proper depth after the case halves are put together. The same tool then also installs the shield against the shoulder on the shaft.
It doesn't appear that JD will even sell me that tool. I'll see about making one. I hope to go through the clutch packs today.
Its not hard to see what the problem is.
A few questions if I may. This far into it, would you replace every o-ring/seal in it? What about aftermarket frictions/steels? The bearings and gears all look new, I'm not planning on replacing any of them. Any suggestions appreciated!
That JD tool looks like a seal installer. You can buy generic seal driver sets.
It is designed to set the seal at a specific depth since there is no shoulder to seat the seal against. I would definitely replace every seal and o-ring. I would prefer OEM parts but that is entirely up to you. I have never used aftermarket parts in these transmissions so I cannot give an opinion on them. Maybe someone else has positive/negative feedback on them?
Thanks guys. Heading off to work. I'll go by JD and order these parts. I am gonna get a new set of those sealing rings too.
I'm guessing the seal at the torque converter and the rear output shaft seals can both be installed after I have the trans back together? It would appear though that the torque converter one is best to do now with it open, just have to make sure I don't drop/lose any of the bearing cones. MG, I still need to pull the lower bearing/bevelle washers and pistons out of the drums. I cannot find my puller that is suitable. Do you know the puller you use for this? Thanks!
Hey, I went by and looked at that jack. Looks good and I believe it would do the job. Might have to get one. I don't have clearance for it this time though. I could roll the trans under the backhoe as before and then lift it enough to sit on that jack, but at that point might as well install it with the hoist.
From what I see in the image of your tractor you could raise it up enough with the fel to get enough height to roll the trans under it, on the jack. Then let the tractor back down on the jack stands.
This machine has the main hydraulic pump attached to the back of the trans, so it's dead until I have it all back together. Now I could raise the front end with other jacks and see what that buys me.
Use your new transmission jack with blocks on it ! You know what to do after that !
We just use an OTC puller (can't remember the OTC number though I will get it and get back to you). If you have the service manual it shows a picture of it. Yes you can.
Thanks for that info MG. I went to JD and ordered all the seals, o-rings, and those steel sealing rings. I have frictions and steels for the clutches. I hope to get those parts in today or Monday and then get this back together.
I made a puller for the drum bearing out of a 10" section of 2.5" pipe and a flat washer that was cut in half, tapered, and welded to the bottom of each jaw. Worked like a champ as you can see.
This is one of the clutch drum pistons, but what is this imperfection here? Is it a crack or just a casting flaw? The backside of this spot (including the 0-ring groove) looks fine.
So both piston have this flaw at the exact same place? Both look identical to each other. I think I need a couple of pistons.
I showed these to my nearby highly respected transmission builder and he said they are casting flaws and came from the factory like that and to use them.
I would agree so long as they are only on the flat and not migrating up the side through the sealing groove.
I was hoping that the original snap rings for setting up the clutch drums would work out with the new parts. Of course not! My local JD dealer doesn't have them in stock. So as soon as I can get those I "think" I'm ready to go back together with this.
I've been cleaning the transmission halves at their mating surfaces and have a couple of questions. 1) what's the trick to keeping the bearing cups in the top half when putting it together? Petroleum Jelly maybe? 2) both dowel pins are still in the bottom half. Can it go back together this way or should I remove one or both?
I use grease to hold the cups. As far as the dowels, the holes for the dowels in the case should go through so that the dowels could be accessed from either side. Look at your case halves, one of them should allow the dowels to travel all the way through, that is the side you want your dowels in for assembly. I tap them in flush so they are out of the way because I find they hinder clutch alignment and actually increase your risk of breaking the metal sealing rings (those suckers are sensitive to breakage). Then when the two halves are together you should be able to access the dowels from the "backside" and tap them into place.
Then when you have it all back together and "forward" is dead, you have a pretty good idea why! Or, maybe you get lucky and hear the little bugger pop? Scary. Do you sometimes have to pull one a second time for this reason?
Lucky for me (knock on wood) I have not had to take a trans out again for that. I have however broken my fair share of those rings. That's why when I do a job like that I order a couple of extra rings just in case. When setting the case halves together make sure the shop is nice and quiet (that means no Lynard Skynard on the music box). You will hear them snap if they are going to break. No snap and you should be good to go. Make sure the rings and their bores are oiled or greased to aid in assembly.
I got the sizing snap rings and have the two clutches built. All went well there. I have right at 3mm of play in both and when all together the opposite end gaps 5.2 and 5.5mm. All within spec. I have the trans ready to go back together except for the dowel that is in the blind hole. Cannot get it to move! I have not tried heat (kinda hate to put heat on it) . Wonder if I can go back together with the halves while this dowel is still in? Of course I do have the other dowel out. Any suggestions on how to proceed? Thanks!
DOWEL ARE TO HELP LINEUP THE TWO MATCHING SURFACES, DON'T HAMMER THEM, BACK, LET THEM STICK OUT SO WILL YOU KNOW HOW CLOSE TO MATCHING UP
While in most cases that is usually true, it has been my experience (and just my opinion) with ZF trans halves that having the ability to wiggle the case ever so slightly when almost together helps with the alignment of those pesky steal seal rings and have broken fewer of them that way than I have with dowels in place. Then I hammer the dowels in place before I install the bolts (if the dowels were in the correct half). Yes you can. Since it is in the blind hole side just leave it. I have successfully put case halves together with the dowels in place as well. The only way to remove one from a blind hole is with a dowel puller.
Great thread... I'm enjoying following the pics.. Dowel puller seems inexpensive https://www.denniskirk.com/motion-pro/engine-tools Would you Think drilling the threads out of a nut, splitting it, then clamp with vise-grip, give enough grip to pull it out of the blind hole ?
It seemed to go together without a problem with that one dowel in. The two halves almost fell together. That's my son Auston torquing the bolts to spec. No dowel puller required this time.
How's that kid going to learn to sit on his butt all day playing video games with you having him out doing constructive stuff?
That's a good question. We try to limit game playing around here. He'll be turning 16 next month, but as you can see, we've been wrenching together for quite a while. He is about 5 here.
Alright, got the transmission stabbed today. That went just fine. Might be the Monday after Thanksgiving before we can work on it more. Thanks for all the help!
Had a nice vacation over the Thanksgiving holiday. Good to take a break and visit family in another state. Now back to this backhoe project. The only thing left on this is the hydraulic tank. I hope to get that in today and start it for the first time in the morning. Anything I should do on this first start up? Was thinking I might let it run on the stands a few minutes and operate forward/reverse a little on the stands just to make it easy that first time or two?
Running it while on the stands is what I do. I have my gauges on it to confirm pressures are all good. Just curious, did you replace the torque converter and trans cooler?
No, I only replaced frictions, steels, o-rings, sealing rings, and torque converter shaft seal. Of course I installed a new filter and fluid. I'll let my parking brake switch and mfwd switch tell me if I have good system pressure.
Hallelujah! Everything seems to be good. Parking brake goes off instantly on demand and MFWD verified working with switch. Fwd, Reverse both work in all gears. No unusual vibrations or sounds. No leaks to be found! Let it run for about 15 minutes. Next I'll take it off the stands and give it work out. Mg, I torqued the main hyd pump's mounting bolts to 54 ft lbs. What do you do? I did not see a reference for those in the book.
If you have the correct bolts which are 12mm grade 10.9 then it should be 90 lbft. Glad to hear you are up and running. Good job ! Also, when you had that much debris stuck to your suction tube and you are re-using the TC and cooler I would change the trans filter after 10 hrs of run time. I would then cut open the removed filter to to see how much additional stuff got caught (if any). An extra filter change is cheap insurance.
Will do! mg, thanks so much for your help with this project and Tinkerer you too! I learned a lot about this ZF transmission. Before I tore it down, I would have suspected that this trans had been abused. Now I think the friction material simply separated from the metal backing in the clutch after a lot of years. When I took the reverse drum apart, it was in perfect shape except 1/2 of one side of a friction had let go. It was complete and in the approximately correct location, but detached from the metal backing. It was the start of the failure in this drum. The backhoe is 20 years old and I think these frictions eventually just give up. Thanks again for the help!
Got to operate it some today and all seems well. Really good firm engagement with the clutches. Back under roof for now!
Glad to hear the successes! Nice work! Lucky you! You have a roof. Mine has to set out
Sharp looking machine you have there.
Just a quick question. I ran the backhoe for an hour or so today. Worked well, no problems. I checked the trans fluid after it was up to temp and I notice a trace of small bubbles in the fluid. It looks like a small amount of aeration going on or maybe air trapped in trans and working its way out? I checked several times and this never seemed to worsen. Any thoughts on this? I'm wondering if a few bubbles in the fluid might be ok? Thanks. Edit: MG, I went back and reread that previous thread and you specifically asked if the fluid was foamy. No, it's not. I'm suspecting this is not a real problem?
I'm now think driving around in 4th gear can cause a few air bubbles. Or maybe some air trapped in trans somewhere? I parked it, shut it down and let it rest for 15 minutes, recranked it and its running now with no bubbles in the oil at all after 20+ minutes. A transmission air bubble study is apparently underway here lol.
Was the vent cleaned or replaced? Super tiny bubbles, especially after roading in 4th wouldn't be unusual since the the gears at the bottom of the trans could agitate that oil pretty well. Let us know how the air bubble study goes .
My wife thinks this thing is my mistress and now I'm just looking for reasons to work on it! and you KNOW that vent is clean!
I don't think I'm out of the woods on this transmission yet. The bubble study continues in the transmission dip stick. I ran the tractor parked for 10 minutes and no bubbles. I then put it in reverse only for 5 minutes (1/2 a mile) and got bubbles. I let it rest and then ran it in forward only for 5 minutes (1/2 mile or so) and got bubbles again??? So weird. See photo of fluid on dip stick and it's interesting to me that the fluid does not seem to travel up the stick or really get foamy? There are however lots and lots of tiny bubbles there that I cannot explain. What do you think? I have Tractor Supply's J20C equivalent in the trans right now. I'm thinking I'll switch to HyGard to start with and see if that stops it.
LOOKS LIKE AIR FOAM
Start with Hygard and see what happens. Are you sure the breather on top of the torque converter housing is free and clear? Does your dipstick have a notch down through the threads as a secondary breather?
It is, but I'll check it again. Yes, I do have the notch cut in the threads.
I was thinking about this bubble think last night and couldn't believe the trans only made bubbles with tractor moving. I swapped in the HyGard today and ran the tractor at a much higher idle this time for 10 minutes parked and got bubbles. That makes more sense to me. So before I was at a low idle while parked, but driving it around at a much higher engine speed. Doesn't the problem just about have to be on the suction side of the trans (IE: up to and including the charge pump)? I see no external leaks on the trans case anywhere. What's been done so far: New Charge pump, all new o-rings on pump and pickup tube. I inspected that pickup tube carefully on the bench. I spent a good 30 minutes cleaning all the debris out of it. Kinda at a loss on it. What to do next? I'm guessing pull the main hydraulic pump and the charge pump inspecting the sealing surfaces and o-rings for misplacement or damage?
Don't pull the pump yet. Driving the machine could create fine bubbles from the gears churning the oil. Yours appears to be a bit more bubbly (like my personality....NOT) than I would expect. I am currently working on a 310SE. When I get a chance I'll try duplicating what your doing and look at the oil to see what I get (and I'll post pictures). Might be a day or two since I have the steering cylinder off.
I realize now that it's making fine bubbles parked too. I can see how this kind of problem could be tough to find!
When I installed the main hyd. pump to the charge pump, I put the o-ring in the charge pump first and then pushed the hyd. pump in place. maybe I pushed that o-ring out of position? I suspect a better way would have been to install the o-ring on the main hyd. pump first and then install the two together in the charge pump. Could that being out of place cause these tiny bubbles? When it quits raining here, I'll check that. Might be this weekend before we have dry weather around here.
Pulled the main hyd pump and checked that o-ring and cleaned everything. Put it back together. Slowly but surely the tiny bubbles reappeared. Is it possible that air is getting in the fluid somewhere other than the suction side of the charge pump?
It would be unusual for air to enter the pressurized side of the pump. Check it carefully Is there any chance that the pickup tube is loose or is badly sealed ? Or a fine crack in it --------------------------------------------- here ↓
Anything is possible I guess. I spent a lot of time on that pickup tube cleaning it and looking it over. I wish I had used a magnifying glass on it now! I removing and reinstalled it with a new o-ring and torqued to spec with the recommended 242 locktite. I've tightened the bolts on the control valve for good measure and installed a gauge on the system pressure port. It's strong at 240psi. I have not run it til that drops, but I suspect at some point the aeration will be bad enough to drop pressure and apply parking brake. I may be down at HF for that jack sooner than later.
That tells me you were quite meticulous with your assembly ! I would be suspicious of the charge pump and the filter. I would think the air has to be entering somewhere above the flooded level of the oil in the transmission. But, as MG2361 stated it may be from the gears churning the oil. Hold off on doing anything until he tries to duplicate your problem on the 310 he is working on.
Not experienced on this machine but is it possible to pressurize the system say from the tank cap with air to find the leak. I know there is a breather that would need to be plugged off also buy possible I assume.
Thanks, I'm not in a hurry. I don't know if that could be done. If that tube is leaking for example, I don't think it could be detected?
Run 'er 'til she develops.
Doing that could possibly force oil out a leak in a gasket. Tooo much pressure could make a gasket leak.
Got 2 hours in on the backhoe today and all is well. During that time system pressure stayed at approx. 240 psi. I checked the trans fluid at the end of that time and had hardly any noticeable bubbles in the fluid. How can this be? I don't know. One guess is that there is always some air trapped in the suction side of the system when the machine is first cranked and that gets worked into the fluid for a while, but then dissipates after a while if transmission healthy? Anyway I dug up a and pushed over an 80ft tall hardwood tree and dressed it all back to level with no problems and not much in the way of bubbles. Bubble study adjourned for now.
JL, glad to hear it cleared up. Maybe it was slightly air bound at start up?? For what it is worth, I did finally got back to that "E" I was working on yesterday and after running at fast idle for 10 minutes I had no bubbles. Ran with the rear wheels off the ground in 4th gear for 5 minutes and only had the tiniest of bubbles that you had to look real close to see (essentially clear as far as I was concerned). I would have posted pictures but they came out blurry (it was the camera not the picture taker, I swear ). I'm new to the smart phone thing and I'm still trying to figure it out .
Hey guys, I do not usually pop in on anything other than Case cause that is where I spent my life, BUT, I had a man on the Case forum who used an off brand oil in his transmission, every lined friction plate assembly in the power shift, the diff lock and PTO shed its lining just like you have pictured, causing him thousands of dollars to replace the lined plates. We recommend that our customers stay with Case oils and filters, As far as filters, I believe Case and John Deere share the same manufacture as we were a Case/ JD lawn and garden dealer and we used JD filters which were identical in design. , Back to oil, I would recommend the same for you guys as I believe HYGARD is probably recommended for that unit, not knowing JDs oil specs I could be wrong but I would use JD brand oil, BTW, I have high regard for HYGARD and believe it too be on a par with Cases HYTRAN and would not be afraid to run it in a Case product.
This transmission is 20 years old. I don't believe it had ever been worked on before. Time and hundreds if not thousands of heat cycles I suspect separated those frictions from their backings. The previous owner used JD filters and fluids in the machine. It did have only JD filters on it when I bought it. I would think that eventually they all come apart regardless of what brand oil is used.
I think Melben was referring to components that should of had hundreds, if not thousands of hours life still in them. Undoubtedly yours were wore out because they are extremely thin. Amazing it ran as long as it did and metal pieces didn't cause more problems. It is good that additional info like his and mg's and all the pros gets posted because a lot of people are reading these threads and I think it really helps them.
Absolutely. I just didn't want melben or anybody else to think I blamed anything but a hard long life on my worn out clutch frictions since I mentioned different oil brands.
I had before retirement worked in the same shop 52 yrs and have seen firsthand the damage caused by bargain basement oil and even some oils that are highly regarded are not in my opinion fit to use in some Case transmissions, in the particular unit I mentioned the customer had to REDO his transmission after a complete rebuild because of the very same thing in your photos, Not discounting your statement that OEM oils and filters were used at all, just when I see separation like that a red flag goes up, As I stated not to long ago, one particular brand of oil swelled Case packing up to the point the cylinders would actually squeal on BH/LDRs, to service those cylinders we had to winch them apart on our rollback truck. The thing common to all these cylinders was the oil used in the system.