Equipment : 2003 John Deere 160CLC. History : I replaced the engine with a used one, machine worked fine and noticed my boom up slowed way down and at the same time I had an oil pan gasket leaking (must have torn it when I installed it). I replaced the arm regenerative solenoid and went to work; it corrected the boom speed, and I was able to continue on. I then decided to have Deere come and change the oil pan gasket and install engine wiring harness since the current one was in bad shape. Once they left, I ran the machine for approximately 3hrs before I noticed no arm in power and functions were operating slowly. Arm in function blew a line from the control stick, replaced it and called Deere again. Deere stated that they adjusted the main relief and replaced some O-rings. Went to pick it up and it started and ran fine so I loaded it up and brought it home, ran it for 3-5hrs and all functions went slow and no power Hydraulic wise (everything operated very slow). When the bucket teeth were in the ground it would not even scratch the soil. I contacted another local mechanic and we found the main relief would not adjust so I bought a new one verified the pressure was at the desired level approximately 5000 psi on the display control, I then assumed great so I decided to run it, it ran for 1-2hrs before reverting back to the old way of slowing everything down all functions and no hydraulic power again, engine rpm stayed normal 2010rpm ( I know this is slightly low according to spec but this is what it has been the whole time). I then decided to look at a gauge installed on the pilot manifold and at low idle it was reading 0psi and at high idle it was at 325-400psi. this was unusual since it had normally been at 500psi regardless of the idle speed when the machine was operating normally. Issue: Hydraulic issues, pumps 1 and 2 will display approximately 5000 psi and suddenly drop to 2700 psi and all function will reduce in power. Pilot pressure at full throttle is approximately 325-400psi and at idle 0psi. No codes on display or pump controller under the back console. Also, while checking the boom up and arm in pressure displacement for pumps 1 & 2, the function will drift on occasion which had never happened before (drift does not occur every time). Items replaced: 4045T engine (used), engine wiring harness, pump 1 & 2 pressure sensor, arm regenerative solenoid, main relief valve, boom up pressure sensor, arm in pressure sensor, crankshaft speed sensor, hydraulic pump speed sensor, verified all voltage reading on all sensors on the pump were within the spec. Arm in, boom up, and another line relief was removed and cleaned and packing and O-rings replaced then reinstalled. (John Deere stated the main pump was good when I took it to the shop). Need help addressing, thank you in advance for the input.
Is it safe to assume the full throttle pilot pressure remains at approximately 325-400psi regardless if the hydraulics are acting up or not ? If pilot pressure is not the true issue ,I would suspect the hydraulic controller behind the seat has an intermittent loss of power or ground.Check fuse connections, controller connectors and grounds.
Yes you are correct in assuming the pressure stays the same whether or not hydraulics are in use or not. I will recheck grounds and fuses in the morning.
If your engine harness was that bad, I would be suspicious of the machine harness as well. I wonder if there is an issue with the speed solenoid circuit wiring or the solenoid itself. Also, if the engine speed sensor circuit ever shows 0 rpm, then the controller will destroke the pumps. I know you said you replaced the speed sensor, but did the wiring for it get checked thoroughly or replaced?
Verified grounds were tight and clean.
Y5 is new verified today that it was working and yes you are correct the wiring could be the culprit but I’m having issues with locating a harness but…I have verified voltage at the plug.
When in service mode you mentioned the (2) pump pressures drop from 5000 to 2700 PSI when the issue is occurring. Like MG2361 suggested that you keep an eye on engine speed ever showing 0 rpm. Is there any other live data you see that is significantly lower or higher or non existent when the issue is occurring compared to normal operation ?
What do you mean by "PILOT PRESSURE"? Where did you measure pilot pressure???
Pilot pressure is supplied by the pilot pump in relation to main pumps 1 and 2. All three are utilized on the machines hydraulic system to function properly. Pilot pressure is checked at one of these two spots circled below, I don't remember which one, but this is where the service manual says to install you can also check pilot pressure on the pilot control manifold as well but there is a reason for that, but I don't have the service manual in front of me to quote why. Also, verified using a new gauge over the weekend and my pilot pressure is 500-600psi at full idle and at low idle 250ish psi. My gauge must have failed . I worked through the display and when verifying pump 1 and 2 pressures, it would occasionally hit 5000psi but never would hold, all other pressures appear to be in spec except for pump 1 and 2. I do believe the HP mode will not engage due to the inability of the pumps making the psi required for the ecm to notice and engage HP mode. This can be verified later once the pressures are straightened up. I blocked off some of the machine's functions to see if it would isolate the issue and show correct pump readings on the display, but none were successful. I did stall each track out and isolated each pump and I did receive 5000psi readings but as I continued checking and messing around it suddenly dropped back to 2500ish psi. Which is what it does with the functions as well, so it comes and goes without any rhyme or reason. It acts like it is lifting the main relief (which is new and not been messed with) way before its able to actually build the appropriate pressure or it's dumping it somewhere and this is where I have shifted my focus, but I am unable to determine where this can occur. The line reliefs are not lifting from operation, and this is an assumption because I am not seeing any drift in any functions after they are lifted like I have in the past. That brings me back to a new question, is there something that works in sequence with the main relief like a spool or something which can cause a bypass scenario or something like that?
Please see attached images below.
You are probably mounting a hydraulic pressure gauge in place to measure the main pump control pressure.
Thanks thats good information and thats the spot now that I see the fitting...the gauge is installed in the correct spot. The pilot function psi readings above are also accurate when I tested (they are very close to your sheet). I also just got off the phone with John Deere and after speaking with them, their thoughts regarding the issue is pump controller. What's the likelihood of this? I'm kind of leaning that way too since all readings and tests appear to be accurate.
I think next steps would depend on how much load (hydraulic pump flow/ pressure ) is on the engine with normal operation versus when low hydraulic pressure issue is occurring. I would think checking turbo boost pressure would be the easiest and most accurate way to confirm load. You will need to install a low pressure (15 or 30 psi) gauge at the air inlet on the cylinder head. Full speed boom up and stick out (or high speed propel on relatively flat ground) would likely create close to 2500 psi with (2) pumps in use. Check turbo boost under those conditions. Check turbo boost pressure again when ever your low hydraulic pressure issue is occurring with the (2) pumps in use. If the pump valve controller is suspected to be randomly destroking the hydraulic pumps and allowing only 2500 psi to build (along with low turbo boost pressure) then yes I agree with a bad pump valve controller. I also want to say a possible pump issue but I really can’t think what internally would cause both pumps to drop psi intermittently and at the same time. If the low hydraulic pressure issue is the result of an internal leak or a valve dumping oil etc (along with high turbo boost pressure) then no it would not be a pump valve controller issue.
In case of speed sensor failure, MC will send wrong signal to torque control solenoid valve causing pump flow to be reduced to minimum==>machine pressure will be reduced.
The steak dinners are piling up!
LACHAU, thanks for the schematics I will check resistance and functionality and follow up after the weekend or sooner if time allows. I do know the speed sensor is new and recheck resistance to spec. The proportional valve solenoid if it is the ones on the pilot filter manifold, they are good I have verified them as well this past weekend, but I can't remember what the manual actually calls them. The speed controller (throttle knob) I have not evaluated ever so that will be on the to do list along with the input & outputs of the pump controller MC. Also, this is good information and dialog. I strongly believe it will eventually be resolved. Just a quick recap: Machine will randomly lose hydraulic speed/power (very slow and weak but will continue through each function) on all functions at same time the display pump pressures are at 17-19mpa, example when display is in diagnostic mode to monitor pump pressure 35.5mpa is the target, when using any function to verify the setting of 35.5mpa, while machine is proceeding through the pressure building stage it will stop at 17-19mpa and if you repeat the same function or use another function several times " hit or miss" it may decide to continue to build and achieve the desired 35.5mpa reading on pump 1 and 2 delivery pressure setting on display. This occurs cold or at operating temperature. All other display setting has met the specs per the technical manual. When performing the tests verified engine RPM at 2010 through all scenarios when machine is acting up and halfway running right, engine never lugs or slows down, note: I am aware engine rpm is low but has always been around 2010rpm. These are the items which have been replaced and re-checked. Hydraulic pump was tested by JD dealer and stated to be good. Pilot pump pressures have been verified through two separate set of gauges and determined to be good. Boom up pressure sensor new Arm in pressure sensor new Swing pressure sensor new Pump 1 pressure sensor new Pump 2 pressure sensor new Crankshaft position sensor new Engine Speed Sensor on hydraulic pump housing new Engine Wiring Harness (only) new Main Relief Valve (hydraulic) new verified grounds are secure verified all fuses are good New batteries verified no codes are present on display or pump controller speed solenoid 11 new and 12 tested good photo below.
The load (hydraulic pump flow / pressure) never meets the limit to pull the engine down at any point except for normal operation which is around 35.5mpa due to the inability of the pumps to function correctly. Verifying this can occur once the pumps are meeting the desired mpa. The engine remains at constant rpm throughout all operations it never drops rpm or lugs it operates as designed. I can check the boost but I'm doubtful of this being the culprit since its hit or miss and it really feels like it wants to build hydraulic pressure but as its building it stops (communication ecu) or bypasses (a valve) or something. It's really odd and random that is why I keep going to ecu communication issues. I will follow up after I look at it again this weekend or sooner. Can you elaborate any on the following "internal leak or a valve dumping", which valve(s) are you referring to in your statement: If the low hydraulic pressure issue is the result of an internal leak or a valve dumping oil etc (along with high turbo boost pressure) then no it would not be a pump valve controller issue.[/QUOTE]
It is supposed to. I think the engine rpm's need to be brought up to fast idle spec and a Hydraulic Pump Regulator test (engine pulldown) be done. Sounds to me like there is either an issue with the wiring and you are losing engine speed signal to the controller causing it to destroke the pump or something wonky is going on with the pump regulators. They might only need an adjustment. But, the engine speed needs to be at spec to do that. Since the speeds are not mechanically adjustable, you would have to figure out why the speed is low (bad throttle dial for example).
Dirt Guy , I was under the impression that good hydraulic performance (pressure and function speed) was the norm and the poor performance issue was not a near constant occurrence. Under that same impression, I suggested to check the turbo boost pressure when hydraulic performance was good and also check it when performance was poor to get an indication to what extent the hydraulics were loading the engine in the 2 scenarios before you bolted on a $ 2500.00 non returnable pump valve controller as your Deere dealer was leaning towards.
It's well worth more than a steak dinner to me at this point. I agree engine rpm does need to come up but 2010 is within spec of providing accurate results by the book. The speed control knob is checking out as well by the book but I may replace it as well. This will require additional digging I will have to circle back to this and follow up but thanks for the input its all good stuff and in the right direction.
This thing has been a complicated issue for a while and I understand. That is why I did a quick recap on it....the information in the thread can be daunting but its all good information and I appreciate every bit of it. The norm is not building pump 1 & 2 delivery pressure to the set points on the machine of 35.5mpa its only reaching 17-19mpa. It will randomly hit the set point very intermittent and annoying. I keep coming back to a communication issue with the sensors, speed knob, pump controller speed solenoid. I will follow up again later.
Thanks I will look into this and follow up.
You checked the pilot pressure on the manifold at the pilot filter outlet correct ? I suggest you tee in a gauge after the pilot shut off valve and recheck the pressure. The shut off valve may not be opening fully.
Diesel Dave: That is correct, the gauge was plumbed in at the pilot filter manifold where the technical manual instructed (current reading are 500-600psi high idle and 250-300psi low idle). See image below. Also, the shutoff valve in this location? The book says this is the location of the pilot pressure regulating valve. I removed the plug here at the "shut off" and a spring was inside but nothing else and I wasn't sure what else to do since the manual didn't go into any further detail. I did not see what anything that resembled a regulating valve, so I was stumped on that and reinstalled the spring and plug.
The pilot shut off lever in the cab is connected to the shut off valve with a rod and linkage. The pilot shut off valve is below the cab floor, remove the outside bottom guard below the cab. Check the arm on the valve for full travel.Disconnect the linkage to the arm if necessary to verify full travel. If you install a guage ,tee in at the pressure inlet at the pilot signal manifold. The inlet hose is a bit of a bitch to get to but will give the most accurate test point.
That means you can adjust pilot pressure by adding or removing shims (adjusting the thickness of the shims).
Dirt Guy, I learned something new today !! I’m sorry ,the pilot pressure test point I suggested was not correct. As per the info LACHAU provided above, “When Pilot Control Shut-Off Lever is in LOCK Position. The pilot shut-off valve is set in the OFF position. The pressure oil from the pilot pump does not flow into the pilot valves, but it is routed to the signal control valve. The pilot oil on the pilot valve side is routed to the hydraulic tank. The pilot valve are operated, as the control levers are operated” . If you feel it necessary to check pilot pressure beyond the pilot shut off valve ,use the procedure you found “Control Valve Spool Actuating Pilot Pressure Test” or the “Secondary Pilot Pressure Test” that LACHAU provided.
Just a quick update I will have more over the weekend but the speed sensing solenoid check at 21.8ohms book called for 20-30 ohms. Photo is the pressure reading on pump 1 &2 control pressure. Just to verify numbers that lachau gave. Pump 1&2 delivery is still at 17-19mpa.
Also diesel Dave at high idle rpm is 2010 when functions are moving rpm is at 2100-2300rpm. Just an update haven’t check pressure or anything on the turbo.
Ahhh, that machine is older and has ECO mode, which was removed from later 160C machines. With ECO mode, the PVC reduces engine rpm slightly when the control levers are in neutral. Then raises to fast idle speed when a function is activated. If you can, pin both tracks so they can be stalled in forward. If you don't have the ability to pin the tracks, stalling a swing function for one pump and stalling the bucket curl for the second pump will suffice, though not as accurate IMO. Then with the engine at operating temp, hydraulics at operating temp, stall the left track and record your engine rpm. Release the left pedal, let engine rpm stabilize, then stall your right track and record your engine rpm. Then stall both tracks and record your engine rpm. Post results please. And, if you have a gauge in the intake manifold, you can check your boost at the same time. Stall a function until the engine is at rated speed of approximately 2200 rpm and see what your boost is. You may have to feather the stalled function a bit back and forth to get the highest reading out of the gauge you can get. Post results.
I have pinned the tracks while trying to diagnose the hydraulic issues pump 1&2 would randomly high 35.5 mpa then go to 17-19mpa. When this was performed I was not focused on rpm but I can retest and check rpm.
When I did that at the time rpm change wasn’t noticeable unless it went to 35.5mpa that’s when ho mode would increase as it should. Other than that it was normal but I can still verify your suggestion later.
My local mechanic had a question to ask the online group regarding my issue: with no pump control at all ( like if the main controller was out of the machine) will the machine still make pressure? Most older machines will according to him it may be slow but will still reach relief pressure. Any thoughts on this? also, rpm is good turbo 18-20lbs boost. Still low hydraulic pressure and intermittent.
What hydraulic functions were being used and also what was the the pump pressures and engine rpm when max turbo boost was measured.
Same as original post…single function, travel, boom up, arm in pump 1&2 delivery hit 35.5 mpa once and suddenly dropped to 17-19 mpa kept messing with the functions and got it to come up a few times but would never hold like it should. Verified speed solenoid and sensor was good today replaced one pump control sensor but made no change to performance. Here’s a video of it as I’m booming up and it works and hold 35 and I boom down and back up and it stays around 20mpa https://www.facebook.com/1373146148/posts/10222676876375234/?flite=scwspnss
https://www.facebook.com/1373146148...Spyo4qPkXV85G9zJgPZGemnQ7Hcl/?mibextid=r5uJeJ
Any chance you could post the videos on YouTube for those of us without Facebook.
160CLC PUMP DELIVERY PRESSURE READINGS - YouTube Copy and paste the above and it should allow you to view the video
Also, the code flashing is 88 which is no codes.
What specifically was the engine rpm's when you stalled one track, then the other. It would have been nice to see the entire sequence of the blinking of the engine light also.
the blinking engine light code is 88 which is (no codes)
Can the service advisor show any additional information regarding pump controller functionality?
The turbo boost pressure is on the money, minimum spec is 11 psi. How many hours are on the machine. What hydraulic testing did Deere perform to say the main hydraulic pump was good ? Was it tested on your machine or disassembled on the bench to check the internals.
10k hrs and test was done on the machine not disassembled. I don’t know what they did they just reported it checked good flow and my pump wasn’t the issue.
@ The Dirt Guy: I'm sorry I didn't read all the posts because this post is too long! So what symptoms do your machine have right now? Is it weak in all activities or only in a few? The pressure you say only achieves 2500 psi is the pressure of pump #1 or pump #2? That's the maximum pressure of all movements, right? Are the movements slow? When the pressure is reduced to only 2500 psi do you check what the engine speed is then? I mean you have to double-check: check with your own speed meter and compare it with the value displayed on the screen of your machine.
After watching the video a few times I suspect the main hydraulic pump is the issue. Pressure certainly is all over the map. When you switch the display to pump 2 pressure, the max pressure when I assume the boom was at full height was the same pressure while the boom was in motion. If it was mine ,I would remove the main pump and remove the rear housing. I expect you are going to find some heavy inconsistent wear on the rear housing where the 2 valve plates contact and slide and also heavy wear on both valve plates causing internal leaks that vary in size depending what position the valve plates are in.
Thank Diesel Dave for the input...So, I just want to make sure this is explained well, the function I was performing was boom up, hold till main relief lifts which is set at 35mpa. In the beginning of the video on pump 1 delivery pressure, it reached and functioned correctly when I lowered the boom and attempted to perform the same function again it stops around15-20mpa. Then I switched the display to pump 2 delivery pressure and the readings were the same 15-16mpa. These reading were consistent while performing any function even when pinning the tracks out and isolating the pumps independently. I am sure there is wear on the pump given the hours but supposedly the pump has 4k hours on it. When the machine makes its way back to the dealer, I may have them check it (if I don't figure it out by then or find another pump). BUT its hard to hear on the video but when its building pressure and stops at the 16-20mpa mark, while on the machine it sounds like it dumps the pressure as if the machine thinks you have backed off on the function. What could be possible areas of the machine dumping or I guess bypassing the pressure.
The thread has a lot of information in it which is important to the symptoms of the machine, symptoms are the same as #1. 2500psi on PUMP 1 &2 delivery pressure and randomly will meet the set point of 5000psi; this occurs why performing any function even pinning the tracks to isolate the pumps. All movements are slow, all display readings are accurate (in spec) except for PUMP 1 &2 delivery pressure. when pressure is reduced the engine speed is normal 2100-2300rpm.
Per Deere specs a good used hydraulic pump should produce in total approx 58 GPM ( 29 GPM each pump) at 3000 psi. A potential internal oil leak in the main control valve of approx 55-60 GPM at 2500 psi will create great gobs of heat and a hot spot at the source of the leak. A temperature gun would be ok to search for a hot spot but if you have access to a thermal imaging camera would be best. Be sure to shoot temperature readings of the mains hydraulic pump at some point as well.
All right, so we can rule out the cause of the fault by a decrease in engine speed. The only reason could be: 1/- Due to the main pressure relief valve on the control valve set. 2/- Due to the main pump regulator. Now, what is easy and simple we do first. I suggest you remove the main pressure relief valve and check it thoroughly. If the error of the machine still cannot be fixed, we will conduct a check of the regulator of the main pump later.
Ok took the machine to the dealer here are the results…new pilot pump and pilot control valve installed, flow tested main pumps 29gpm for each which was in spec but on the low end. They concluded the main relief is still lifting and they clam it dirty hydraulic oil….so I’m going to bring it home and drain the oil and cycle it and repeat the drain of the system 3 times. Any suggestions on how to prevent the main relief from lifting?
Main relief is new also.
If they are blaming dirty hydraulic oil for the relief blowing open at low psi, I would remove the valve ,disassemble and clean it. You should be able to see if any debris is stuck in it. What pilot control valve did the dealer change ? Do you have a part # from the work order ? Did you gain any performance after they replaced the pilot pump and the valve ?
Pilot control valve part number 9220219 (entire assembly), pilot pump part number 0942001. The tech told me when the machine would relieve pressure he could back the adjustment screw off and screw it back and it would build pressure just an fyi on that as well. Also, the main relief it new.
Have you recently checked the hydraulic filter and the bottom of the hydraulic filter housing for any metallic or brass debris ?
Yes filters are clear no signs of metal or debris.
Is there a problem on the suction side, between the tank and pump? Is the hydraulic tank pressurizing ( I think it is supposed to pressurize). Does your machine need the pricy no zinc oil?
yes tank is pressurizing and no according to the dealer the machine does not require the non-zinc oil but is recommended since replacement seals and Orings are susceptible to degradation when exposed to zinc additives.
One thing which is for sure the system main relief is lifting and allowing the machine to not build the expected pressures. The relief valve is new (and not saying it could be bad even though it is new) but what can cause the relief valve to fail: mechanical failure within, dirt/debris in the oil and what else???
Im not aware of a suction issue.
I have asked earlier in this thread, did anyone perform the pump regulator test and adjustment - engine pulldown? If you have no metal in the filters, and have poor performance with the engine power being confirmed, then I would have someone check the above mentioned test. It is a simple, inexpensive procedure to perform. I have had many 160C's with that complaint and the pulldown was not adjusted properly. Eliminate the simple stuff first.
When I pin the tracks i would get the same response as if i used any other function...i started the machine activated either track display pump delivery pressure 1 or 2 would be at 35mpa then when i release the function and reactivated it would read 18-20mpa. engine rpm is good and not affecting anything
I will re visit the pulldown test once the machine is back from the dealer. I believe we did a pulldown test and verified it was ok but more than likely i will be revisiting all the items to double check and try to figure out why the main relif is lifting and not working correctly.
Can the pulldown become out of adjustment even if its never been touched prior to the issue developing?
When I ask about pulldown information, I look for rpm, not pressures. The procedure uses rpm to adjust pump flow. The rpm pulldown spec is, however, dependent on the system pressure being to spec, but sometimes the regulators are such that the pump does not stroke enough to develop the pressure needed to reach spec. So, I mark the adjustment screws, make adjustments (1/4 turn at a time), if the adjustments don't fix the issue, I return the screws to where I started and begin looking elsewhere for the problem. Easy, peasy, and no money spent, unless the adjustment didn't work. Yes
So we did do a pulldown test and rpm's did not drop and if I remember correctly they stayed around 2000-2300, this was performed on the following comment -->Also diesel Dave at high idle rpm is 2010 when functions are moving rpm is at 2100-2300rpm. Just an update haven’t check pressure or anything on the turbo. I had to think about this because I knew we did it and nothing changed and we put the adjustment screws back to where they were
The dealership is stating that the main relief valve is lifting due to dirty oil…any thoughts on this? I know it can impact but I just find it hard to believe since I’ve used and seen other machines with hydraulic oil worse than this. Just seems like a waste of 6k to do
The “dirty” oil is going to have much more of an effect on the main hydraulic pump overall condition than a new relief valve. I assume the dealer is basing the hydraulic oil condition on oil sample results. What does the text of the oil sample state as next steps regarding the oil ? Regardless , I wouldn’t change the hydraulic oil until the root cause of the intermittent low pressure is found and repaired.
I agree im changing the oil regardless and the dealer didnt pull a sample they just said they could see it seddle on top of the filter in the tank and the oil is cloudy.
Another question regarding the main relief valve, this machine had a hammer on it basically its entire life until I purchased it, Ive owned it for 8yrs now. Could the hammer have anything to do with it and if so what areas should I focus my attention on?
Did you get the problem resolved ? Was curious if hammer had anything to do with this ?
Unfortunately, the issue is not solved yet...I did have a guy ask the same thing and was very adamant about the hammer causing the issue, but no hammer has been on it in 8-10yrs. Also, Since I brought it home, I have changed the oil out once and filters and warmed it up and it appears to be working better but the main relief still lifts just not as much and the stick in is still weak, the speed is there as long as the relief doesnt lift but the power is not there like it use to be. I am waiting on a shipment of AW46 zinc free oil to arrive and once it does, I am flushing it once more then changing filter out and doing a final fill and see how it performs.
Interesting........im firing up popcorn
So the hydraulic oil and filters have been drained and changed 4 times now and the relief valve is not sticking open as bad now but the arm in function seems to be weak. the speed is there but when you put the bucket in the ground and pull the stick towards the machine it will stop as if its at its max and HP mode kicks in like it should and pressures appear good from the display but it seems weak any thoughts?
Has the internal leakage on the cylinder been checked?
Stick functions have both pumps activated. What are the pressures when stick in is stalled (oil at operating temperature)
PUMP 1 & 2 delivery pressure is 5200psi and oil temp is in range. The internal leakage on the stick has not been checked yet that is on the to-do-list this weekend.
Dirt Guy - did you have any luck solving your problem? I have a similar problem with my Deere 160clc; intermittent slow/low power hydraulics. A couple of days ago I was in slow/low power mode but didn’t really notice until I went to travel - so slow. Then suddenly fast tracking. When I got to where I wanted to be all functions were faster and more powerful. Lasted the rest of that day and part of the next, then back to slow/low power for the last two days. It never pulls the engine down. This could get old real fast. I can’t believe the time/money you’ve spent on your machine. I guess I will have to study all of the posts here to try to identify all the pieces and guess where to start looking. Intermittent problems really suck!
So my progress has not went well as of now...I had a new pilot pump and pilot relief manifold installed and flushed the hydraulic fluid 7 times. At first the machine seemed to have been fixed, I then took it to a job and it ran like a champ for the first day. The second day functions seem to have slowed back down but was tolerable. The third day my left track stopped but would function when I tried to swing and then it straightened back up and worked normally after about an hour. The fourth day, the track stopped again and i decided to load it up and bring it back to look at. While trying to load, the left track would not function with the pedal but would function with boom up or down. Hauled the machine to the yard and when i went to unload nothing would work hydraulically but you could tell the mahine was trying but nothing stick and swing would barely work. Pump 1 20 mpi Pump 2 less than 10...i had to drag the machine off the low boy. I pulled the filters and the pilot system is full of metal again...and i am assuming my best next step is to just replace both the pilot pump and main pump this time...any thoughts on this?
No luck it has been very difficult for me here and i have been around this machine several times and the dealership is not useful either here in TN. I am at the point of selling the machine now unfortunately but i really want to figure it out because i have seen a lot of people having the same issue but amazingly no one knows the solution. I know its expensive but i started with diagnosing the system using the display and then i checked the reliefs and replace 90% of them too just for peace of mind but all gave temporary fixes and the issue came back. let me know if you need any more information and i will try to help maybe both of us working on our machines will eventually find a solution. Im 25k in my repairs and that is with me doing 90% labor so I know i would like to figure it out and save from selling my machine is been too good just to part out.
Anyone have a parts machine I would be interested in it.
The pilot pump pulls it’s oil directly from the main hydraulic pump housing. Sounds like the pilot filter is capturing most of the debris that the main hydraulic pump is creating. I’m thinking that’s why you have seen very little contamination downstream in the hydraulic filter or in the hydraulic tank.
Ok so you have sparked my interest again with the pilot system...can you elaborate on your comment that the pilot pump pulls from the main pump housing...what i am finding is the pilot system pull from the tank and feeds the pilot system, and feeds the main pump resulting in the main pump stagging to the higher pressures required.
My experience has been when something is failing on Deere excavators, the debris is caught in the pilot filter first. That debris is probably in the pilot signal manifold, as well as anything else that requires pilot oil, creating havoc in the system. The source of that metal needs to be determined. Then, most likely, a full system clean up is in order. Do you have pictures of the metal? I just saw your video. Though not related to your hydraulic issue, those codes flash 32, 88, 33, 88. That is caused by either a loose ground or paint under the ground eyelet for the ECU. On many Deere excavators, the pilot pump pulls oil from the main pump's suction line, not directly from the reservoir.
IIRC, the pilot pumps that were mounted to the main hydraulic pump housing (on the drive coupling / flywheel side) pulled their oil through a passage at the front of the pilot pump.
Do you still have the old pilot pump that was changed ?
The 4 bolt flange bolts directly to the main hydraulic pump housing. I pointed out the inlet and outlet ports. Looking at all the pictures, the old pilot pump sure has TONS of wear in 4000 hours ! Before doing all the oil flushes , did you see any filings/ debris in the bottom of the hydraulic tank or in the suction screen ?
Great memory, Dave! I forgot those pilot pumps on the 160C's were inside the flywheel housing.
I'm sorry that I can't help The Dirt Guy, but this thread got me to learn how to use the display for the monitor controller and discovered that when I have slow/low power hydraulics, the actual engine speed reads zero. The few times I have good hydraulics, I get an engine speed that varies as I change the throttle setting - then it's gone and I'm back to where I started. So we changed the engine speed sensor and still have the same problem :-( The wires from the sensor to the round aluminum connector behind the cab in the battery compartment seem good (have continuity). Any suggestions on where I go from here?
Dave i see what your saying now.....also this old pump was the original at 10k hrs so normal wear and tear still? the new one that has failed too is still on the machine with estimated 15hrs on it....i want to be hopeful that there was mechanical failure in this pump shaft broke something because it makes no sense for it to fail after flushing and cleaingin the system
start a new thread and dont piggy back on one that is still active....it make it a headache for the members when following the conversation.
If the new or reman main hydraulic pump was purchased from Deere or a reputable supplier, the pilot pump would have been included. What did you find if anything on the bottom of the hydraulic tank or on the suction screen ?
I have not purchased the new main pump yet and yes your correct on that the pilot pump would be included....I replaced the pilot pump and pilot relief manifold initially and now i am considering replacing it again but with a new main pump. As far as finding anything in the bottom of the hydraulic tank or suction screen no nothing other than fine metal debris (appeared to be aluminum which is in line with the 1st pilot pump condition initially, photos above), but now im thinking the main pump is the culprit. when it was at the dealership flow test was performed and the main pump was in spec but at the very bottom, and i am assuming the higher pressure with the pilot system finally operating may have caused the main pump to let go internally and send debris to the system. That is my assessment right now but could change once i pull the filters and drain the system again and reassess the condition but i am anticipating on pulling the main pump sending to be rebuilt with new pilot pump.
I like it !!
So, I pulled the main pump this past weekend, preparing to send it off...I have a few questions that I can't seem to answer by looking through the book. To start off when i pulled the pilot filter (again) I found some really chunky metal (looked to not be aluminum or brass more like steal), so I started to think about the flow of fluid, and this is where my question is...does the pilot filter catch oil from the main pump or from another part of the system? what's the flow path for the fluid? I am concerned if its from somewhere else other than the main pump then I may be spinning my wheels on replacing the pump in a sense.
The main hydraulic pump is supplied oil from the hydraulic tank , oil passes thru a suction screen in the hydraulic tank and then to the main pump. The pilot pump pulls its oil directly from the main hydraulic pump housing. The oil from the pilot pump is plumbed thru hose #10 (in the screenshot below) to the pilot filter inlet . https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/58163/referrer/navigation/pgId/689008763 .
Thanks for confirming what I was thinking, so this trash has to have come from the main pump...What are the odds of the pilot filter capturing all the debris your opinion? of course, flush the system like I have done before but the odds of big chunks making it through to the valve controller and signal manifold etc. and when I say big chunks I'm talking 3/16" diameter size and down. Also, boom up and right track would not function at all when I started the machine to assist in moving it to a good location to work on. I am assuming this is due to the pumps and pilot pump but if not...what else could I inspect since its down for repair? Thoughts?
Through the whole thread you have never mentioned finding any filings/ debris apart from a couple of times recently in the pilot filter. While the main pump is off, I would see what you find in the hydraulic filter , bottom of the tank and the suction screen before I got too excited about a big clean up.
Will do, I didn’t mention it previously bc when I cut the filters there wasn’t anything major or suspicious but this time it could be different I will updat le next week I plan on cutting the filters over the weekend and disassembling the main pump prior to shipping for rebuild.
If you get a chance, Post some pics of the main pump when its apart.
here are the photos from where i took the pump apart the gear is chewed up badly and there is a crack in the rotary piston pump. so this is obviously the source for the failure. I'm cautious in thinking the entire system is contaminated to the point where if i replace with new the likelyhood of the hydraulic system becoming trashed again is high to where i would be back with a hydraulic system failed. I will update again...once i have drained the tank and cylinders and cut the filters.
we stopped here once we found this because we didnt see the point in tearing it apart any further prior to shipping for rebuild.
Are you still apart ? I should have asked you to take a pic of the backside of the rear housing where the valve plates slide. Its interesting the drive gears are so messed up !
Is this what you're referring to?
Can you take the valve plates out ? take a pic of the back side of the valve plates and a pic of the rear housing sealing surfaces that the valve plates slide on.
Sorry I didn't take a picture of the back side of the valve plates, but I do remember seeing light abrasions on them but no big gashes or cracks, my attention shifted when I seen the gears and just automatically said well there it is.
Ok community….I finally installed the rebuilt pump. Issues are no functions will work except for stick in/out, swing L/R, and bucket curl in/out. Any thoughts? I will post pressures tonight once I record them. I do know the pilot system at the filter housing is good it was at 550psi.
Also, pump 2 delivery pressure will not get above 682psi while pump 1 is >5000psi. I have to track down tonight and see if s pressure sensor is out but they are all new once again kind of at a loss with what the issue is.
Post control pressures as well
Pump 1 delivery pressure 5,497psi (using boom up function) Pump2 delivery pressure 638psi (using boom up function) 1682 psi if using L track only Pump 1 control pressure 551psi Pump 2 control pressure 551psi Boom up pilot pressure 594psi Arm in pilot pressure 594psi Swing pilot pressure 594psi Propel speed pilot pressure 594psi
Pressures when no functions are used are below. Pump 1 delivery pressure at idle 290psi high rpm no function used 667psi Pump2 delivery pressure at idle 116psi high rpm no function used 188psi Pump 1 control pressure low idle 145 psi high idle 145 psi Pump 2 control pressure low idle 145psi high idle 145psi
What is pump 2 delivery pressure when arm in is over relief ?
I will have to take that measurement this weekend to make sure but I feel like it was low like the measurement I sent earlier. Im thinking I have a relief stuck open or a spool not functioning properly. I am assuming this since the pump failed maybe some debris was sent to the control valve. But this is just thoughts night now.
I measured the low and maximum output adjustments and they were equal and in line with the manual as well.
Did you find much debris in the hydraulic filter, bottom of the hydraulic tank or the suction screen ?
No nothing
Suction screen was clean and tank filter and tank was virtually clean too...nothing has been found except in the pilot filter. Originally very little was found in the pilot filter prior to the pump failure it wasnt enough to really question and once the pump failed debris was found in there along with very low PSI (pilot pump failed). when I took the main pump apart I found debris in the housing but if I remember it was not much.
I would like to know the track cycle time. Left and right track mark a pad with paint from running start high and low speed propel for three revolutions. Engine at WOT.
Tracks won’t move so I can’t get cycle times.
Do tracks left and right even try to move?
they do engage and you hear the pump load change when your move the controls forward and backwards.
you can se them shift as you move the controls but no go.
I noticed in your pressure readings for pump 2 using track only was 1682 PSI was that with pinned track? Do the pressures you have remain constant and not jumping around like with original pumps?
correct basically pinned (stalled out under its own weight) and pressures remain constant no fluctuation.
you mentioned you installed rebuilt pump is this Deere reman or from a hydraulic rebuild shop? I assume with the pressures you posted the boom up function is about half the speed it should be.
Yes it was rebuilt from a shop bench tested prior to shipping
Give me some time i have a couple of Doctors appointment this week but i had a customer who installed rebuilt pumps with almost the same issue. I have notes somewhere on what i did to prove it was not in the pumps and it was simple to set up. I will also contact the customer to find out where his 160CLC is if i need to look at it to refresh my memory. Looking at old pump pictures there is enough wear and scoring to cause valve plate separation. With rebuilt pumps pressure staying steady i thank we have other issues to deal with.
Ya I’m thinking it sent some trash to the control valve and I need to pull spools and clean and inspect and clean reliefs again to make sure they are clear. Thank you by the way any info is greatly appreciated.
Also, per theory of operation the pilot filter has a bypass valve that will open if the filter becomes to clogged thus letting contaminated oil go thru the pilot system. Let's get the pumps cleared of any wrongdoing the test i remember brought machine to lift instantly. I do remember screens behind some fittings on control valves but not sure about the 160clc i will check that out.
10-4 I’ll be checking for your reply on here. Thanks again
On the schematic below, @Steve Austin pointed out the 3 filters at 3 outlets of the pilot shut off valve # 21. The filters protect the travel pilot control and the (2) joystick pilot controls. Good eye Steve ! A partially plugged filter at the line supplying the travel pilot control would explain the poor to no travel issue. I suspect the filters/screens are washable. I will post screenshots from the parts catalog.
Lines from pilot shut off valve to travel pilot control
The (1) filter fitting at the pilot shut off valve that supply the left side joystick
The (1) filter fitting at the pilot shut off valve that supply the right side joystick
Ok, I will check the pilot control shutoff but one question...I am not understanding how this will impact the Pump 2 delivery pressure reading. I mean I get it, if clogged or blocked the function will not work but the functions need both pumps and currently pump 2 does not appear to be delivering the required pressure.
At this point, all I am suggesting is to check for a restricted filter at the line supplying the travel pilot valve. It may cure your poor to no travel issue. Based on the Pump 1 discharge pressures you posted when booming up ,Pump 1 certainly has the potential to spin the right side track easily.
I do agree with that. I will check and see.
OK back from appointment, went back and read posts if i am correct the original pumps would build around 5000 psi than drop off to around 2700psi {both pumps right}. So, looking at pump 2 pressure now the max you have seen is around 1600psi. It appears there is a new problem came up with new pumps. i am going to the customers shop in a little while i thank i gave him the procedure i used to fully stroke the pumps, he is running hard right to get things done before rainy season sets in. Get back to you later.
This is what I did to confirm pumps were good. Disconnect hose 20 from pilot manifold at fitting 21 plug fitting 21, route hose 20 to a container we used a gallon jug we rum unit for about 45 minutes on jug before it got full oil should just trickle out of hose. This will lug engine you will feather controls to prevent stalling. Try to stall swing to check pump 2 pressure also if you can perform an arm in check pump 1 and 2 delivery as requested in earlier post. Let’s see what pump 2 does in this situation again I will ask on old pumps did pump 2 Ever seem weaker than pump one. Be cautious functions will move fast you will be full stroke at max joystick travel.
never seemed weaker or anything before it was just lifting the reliefs and then when pump when out this was the symptoms I was having plus pilot pressure was at 150-300psi
Deere replace the pilot pump and manifold ran great for 5 hrs the that’s what happened.
Did you ever have an oil scan done on hydraulic to determine which type of metal was corticating the system?
No I did not the pilot pump was obvious and pump flow checked out so we thought that was it but obviously it was the main pump too it just took 5 more hours of running
Are you getting brain fog you have been dealing with this for a while? I had a 330clc that give me headaches for a while. Let's hope someone hasn't remove any screens and all metal if any just made it to pilot shut off. FYI have seen the valve plates separate in the pumps suddenly and give you the impression of relief opening many times propel was usually when it happened worst because it requires the most pump flow.
been dealing with this for a year and a half and ridiculously deep in it too
You should see my books for this it’s ridiculous
Valve plates shouldn’t be the issue now since the pump is new and bench tested I would hope
With pressure staying steady i would believe they are ok.
You stated you have books do you have TM1932?
Yes I have that one
It’s all marked up hahaha
I suggest to not perform the check to confirm pumps are good right now. I have been thinking about pump 2 delivery pressure and remembered check valve problems in main control valve. In TM1922 i read about the check valves and found the same symptom you are having with pump 2. I sent this info to Diesel Dave, and he came back with reference to pressures you posted in post 117 we both agree this most likely where the problem is, and it is easy to access. Please check this valve look at spring and valve for damage. There may even be a piece of foreign metal in it, check and clean bore also, be sure to check the three screens at the pilot shut off valve for metal and clean. I will attach pictures hope they are clear some i saved from Disel Daves post also. There may be another post as i thank i have 1 picture on my cell phone. Please send pictures if you find damage thanks. A couple of these are bad be sending a couple from cell phone.
More photos
Read about system relief isolation check valve 17 especially operational check your exact symptoms
Hey DirtGuy I meant to send you the page you can reference in your well worn TM1922. Section 9025 page 55. Sending you some pictures of Deere E series haul truck with destroyed engine frame.
That looks like a lot of fun...but honestly looks like something which would happen to me here haha...I will look check the this weekend regarding your posts and hopefully get back to you.
Quick question when performing the operational check for pump 2 the supply oil pressure is the same a pump 2 delivery pressure reading on the controller correct? The photo has the readings from the display monitor when I was checking pressures. The Arm pilot pressure was 4.1mpa and pump 2 was at idle 2, high rpm 4.6, boom up 4.4, and when actuated left track only 11.6. I feel like your previous post referencing 9025-55 basically was telling me to do this am I correct? If so, then my next step to to pull and inspect items 17. just wanted to confirm if i have already performed the test. Referencing this section out of the manual 9025-55: Operational Check: Hydraulic pump 2 supply oil pressure becomes hard to increase. Check pressure at hydraulic pump 2 while operating swing function at stall. If pressure is less than swing crossover relief valve pressure setting, inspect check valve (17). Also, neutral passage oil pressure for right control valve—4-spool (16) is high because oil is flowing past check valve (17). See System Relief Valve Operation for more information. (Group 9025-05.)
readings are in MPa so to convert to PSI MPa*145.04=PSI
Yes remove valve 17 and inspect check bore with magnet for metal clean and inspect bore also.
10-4
Don’t forget to inspect screens at pilot shut off. I hope somewhere in the past somebody hasn’t removed them. I admire your resolve to keep plugging along try to solve you excavator problems .
So short update on item 17 since I came home early…I removed it and cleaned appeared to have all items there no obvious damage and no obvious contamination or anything.
Ran a magnet down the hole and seen nothing as well
Ok please check screens when you can. With key on engine off go into monitor diagnostic mode and check your sensors for pump delivery.control and all pilot sensors check for reading zero. If you can send me a picture of new pumps and hoses from pumps to pilot manifold. Do you have any hydraulic codes?
code (88) no codes
Hey Dirt Guy 88 means you do not have any engine trouble codes. I want you to check hydraulic codes. The procedure in TM1922 is in section 9005 page 2 you go into service menu in your monitor display unit the codes will be number 8 in the sequence order if more than one it will scroll thru them. If there are codes, the problem will have to be corrected before they clear they will clear on their own if problem corrected.
Steve your right my fault there…I did cycle through item 8 don’t recall any codes but I can redo that in the morning when I start. I also tried the to see if any codes were present on the pump and valve controller but nothing there but the heart beat 9015-91. If I’m not mistaken these codes would be the same as displayed but I could have misread that or thought I read that.
You are right the monitor display codes are read from pump and valve controller by the can.
Thats TM1932 not 1922 can't type.
Item 17 clean, main relief clean, pilot screens present and not bad shape. Item 59 having trouble locating is it behind the plate? Nothing changed.
I believe it is behind plate 65. Should be ok but stranger things have happened.
I would go to my post #145 and follow directions and stroke the pumps this takes engine speed sense out of picture so it will not de stroke the pumps to prevent engine lugging. Try to perform an arm in over relief and check pressures.
10-4
Is item 59 accessible without the moving the plate?
Not sure about that one most of valves I have inspected were on larger excavator and were 4 bolt plates.
Not sure about that one most of valves I have inspected were on larger excavator and were 4 bolt plates.
10-4 if plate has to come off like I’m thinking it does it’s about damn near impossible without just removing a ton of ****. I will try and report back
Be lots easier to do the pump test first if that doesn’t show any different pressure results I have one more easy check before you get into that. You stated you installed new delivery pressure sensors did the new ones get installed in your rebuilt pumps?
Yes and I double checked resistance spec in tm1932 just to go back over the quick stuff
So let me run this by you as well, I have an ideal of swapping the supply lines from the pump along with pump sensor plugs to see if the issue follows the switch or stays…if it stays it should be a sign that its not the pump but it the issue follows then its in the pump. I am going to do the pump test that you mentioned first though.
I agree this has been done before good point. Give it a try. I will state would not be the first time I have seen rebuilt pump problems including Deere reman.
Performed #145 no major change…I am going to explain this the best that I can…brain fog is killing me now. From the number I have right now I am leaning towards pump 2 needs to be adjusted now. The original numbers are from a week or so ago and today I swapped the supply lines and the low pressure appears to be on the 4 spool side which was orginally fed by pump 1 but now by pump 2 since the swap. I am going to put the lines back and go through the readings again just to try to gain more info before I adjust anything and I am going to call the Hydraulic company that rebuilt it and discuss with the m again….Steve/Dave what’s your thoughts on this information?
Photo showing the supply line swapped
Post 145 regarding the line…I plugged the line and capped the fitting loos to just wrap oil and ran for 45 min.
Not wrap weep I let the oil just seep out
I will not be surprised if trash made it to the control valve also because I took the surge lines off and used them for the pump swap and while I had them off I figured they might have captured something since the pump failed and they did but that doesnt answer why delivery pressure is low.
Trash from surge lines
Original location marked up pump 2 left side pump 1 right side
just additional
From all the hard work you have done this weekend and looking at the results my guess is trash has made it into pump 2 regulator. The pump regulator has some control pistons that can easily be bound up by a very small and i mean very small piece of metal. If you have metal like that in the attenuator hoses unfortunately some of it has made its way thru the whole system. Before i did anything to the pumps as far as adjustments I would talk to the rebuild shop and explain your situation. We used to use a tool can't thank of the name that shot a rubber plug thru the hoses to clean using air pressure worked pretty well. Of course, that just gets the lines. I will talk to one of my field tech buddies tomorrow that still works for Deere that has been {thru this several times as i have}, to get the latest and greatest fix. In the 690ELC days we used a cleanup filter when the not-so-great Linde pumps crapped out. A Dealer filter caddy will clean up the oil but does nothing to get the crap out of rest of system unless you are lucky enough to flush it into tank when cycling functions during the cleanup process.
These two items plus a sh@# load of labor.
i may have just added confusion to this so i just want to clarify...after pump lines swapped the readings for pump1 is actually pump 2 and the readings for pump 2 is actually pump 1...the low numbers .8,1.3,11.1 followed pump 2.
ya i am afraid this is also what i am going to have to do but i would like to see pump 2 get up to where pump 1 if thats possible before i start cleaning and removing the control valve.
Update from my Field Tech coworker before i retired. I described the problem with pump 2 first thing he said was attenuator hoses cleaned before rebuilt pumps were installed. He stated if not cleaned the first place the debris from hoses goes is to pump regulators. Said he has seen this happen many time the trash binds the piston so regulator cannot swash the pump. He has been doing this work for many years so i trust his input. He said the best way he describes to customer is thank of the attenuator hose as a shock absorber pushing fluid in and out and the trash moves with it.
so take the pump back off and clean?
You can take the regulator off an disassemble I have swapped regulator to isolate pump or regulator. When I get in tonight I will find a diagram that if I remember correctly shows the passageway from pump delivery port to regulator. I would contact rebuild shop to make sure this doesn’t void any warranty. They may want to inspect also.’
ok thanks
If you go to section 9025 page32 you can see supply oil routed to regulator. I do not have access to repair manual, but I would thank the ports in pump would be shown. in it.
Ok I will pull it up right now
That’s funny I was already on that page reading it…
This the photo your talking about
I was thinking I had seen a diagram showing the ports from pump supply to regulator in main pump housing but you know where thanking gets ya sometimes
ya i have been looking for that too to help myself understand the thing a little more...also spoke to the pump place and they said not to remove the regulators it would void the warranty so... i have to figure something out here if i do have to get into the regulator.
Well, I attached physical gauges to both pumps and attached is the readings…I think its in pump 2 but I will continue on and update again one I move to the regulators.
Image wont load I’ll load it later when I have better service.
So I adjusted the max flow screw and got a response but I had to adjust it out 6 turns but still not enough, I also adjust the middle “power screw” in 2 turns got a response but no where near enough. I plan on taking the regulator apart tomorrow, I feel like something isn’t right maybe they left something out because there is no way to get the pressures equal to pump 1 without some crazy adjustments which dont seem right.
So we took the top regulator off and cleaned and inspected it not issues found, we were hesitant to take the lower out so we did not. Put the regulator back together and no change. We then adjusted on the min flow, power screw, and max flow screws. Was able to get standby pressure for pump to to come up and match pump 1 buts never would produce more than 1900-2000psi. We adjusted the pump a lot seems to need more than the pump allows for adjustment. I am uploading a video I will attach. I’m going to ask a question because I feel like the pump isn’t doing what it is supposed to be pump 2 anyways. Is there any other ways to adjust? Can the pump be leaking internally if so, are you able to check for the leakage and how?
These photos are before we started adjusting and this is at high idle the other is under load(tracks)
The pump could have internal leakage but there is no way to check it with gauges and at this particular point I don’t think a flow meter would prove anything. I would suggest as a last ditch effort before removing the pump rear cover to check the internals of Pump2. Put the regulator adjustment screws back to where you found them originally. Remove and plug the hose circled in red and loosely install a cap on the pump fitting. See if Pump2 performance improves. .
Gauges were on the blocks see image
I saw the (2) gauges at both discharge ports. I was referring to not being able to check for pump internal leakage with gauges.
ok well my fault
Diesel Dave may be on to something with the flow rate solenoid circuit that’s one thing you haven’t eliminated.
So I capped the line tight and loosely capped the port as diesel Dave said in post 215 and no change in pump action other than L track and associated function didn’t work just seem to act as it it was in high idle still
I am going to swap these two lines and see if I get a response. Then I guess take it off and send it back to the pump place.
So swapped the lines and nothing occurred other then while actuating both tracks pump2 pressure went down and when you let off the pressure went back up to where it was at high idle.
You returning the pump to the supplier ? Before the pump is shipped back to you ,have the supplier document the new bench test with a print out or a video of the test results.
This is the original pump test I did finally receive it. I do question how they did the test compared to flow test instructions in the manual bc it seems them tested at the same time and not independently.
I’m sure if you asked the supplier to flow test the pumps individually they would have no issues doing that. . Did you ever get your right side track airborne and were able to spin it at a decent speed ?
No the boom and stick is in too far and the buckets is between the tracks. I thought about using the loader to lift one side but I said hell with it when the pump 2 would never reach pressure and the pump shop said I need to send it back.
just an update...pump has been sent off and waiting on results.
so, pump shop said the pump needed relapped and new disk springs and should be back this week. I'm not sure what relapped implies though, any insight on that?
I’m thinking they are talking about lapping the concave portion of the (2) cylinder barrels and the convex portion of the (2) valve plates. The pics are yours from earlier in the thread , I highlighted in red the areas Im referring to.
Did the shop take any pictures of the parts that they are concerned about ?
No pictures to my knowledge but your explanation makes sense
Ok pump was installed today and no improvement once again. Pump 2 delivery pressure was at 841psi when boom up function was activated and Pump 1 was at 5600psi when boom up function was activated….any thoughts? To me pump 2 still isn’t right in the machine.
Basically, all reading were the same as before when I sent the pump back and they found the issues in post #228
Would you mind checking pressures using arm in over relief Just to see if anything changes with pump 2?
Mpa reading to convert to psi=MPAx 145.04 Pump 1 idle 6.6 High idle 20 Stick in 40-44 Boom up 35-36 Pump 2 Idle 0.6 High idle 3.0 Stick in 6.1 Boom up 6.1
Neither track will move still and this is pump 2 readings for these functions as well Swing 10.9mpa L track 10.9mpa
Tee a gauge into port 19 right propel pump 1 and see how much pilot pressure you have to actuate propel spool just to verify there is sufficient pressure coming from pilot signal manifold.
Gauge in port 19 reads 650psi on pilot pressure only when operating right track in reverse. When operating forward no reading is displace display controller shows pump 1 is putting around 5400psi out
Also, I am thinking there may be a different issue which is lagging from the original pump failure. I raised the machine up and was able to get the right track off the ground and tried to move forward and reverse to see if the track would spin and it would not but the pump would display 5600psi but no motion at all in either direction. I feel like this is from the original pump failure when the boom stopped as well.
Pump 2 on the display monitor still will not get near the required pressure wither still…still around 850psi
Check to see if the right side counter balance valve is stuck in its bore located in the head of the propel motor. The counterbalance valve has to shift in either direction to open the passage allowing pressure to the brake piston releasing the propel brake. .
Thanks for the info….I will look into it after I figure out why the pump 2 isn’t building pressure. So back to pump 2…if the pump is actually good but no pressure is being built. Reliefs are cleaned and new. Any thoughts on what I should check?
At this point i would say swap the pump delivery hoses so pump 2 is supplying 4 spool side and perform an arm in and right propel and see what pump 2 does. Don't worry about swapping pressure transducer connectors just monitor pump 2 pressure the pump and valve controller will not recognize how you have it plumbed up anyway. If pump 2 pressure is still low than i would say pump. If pressure comes up than would be a problem in 5 spool side of valve housing. MG and Dave may have some input on this test.
That was what I thought as well…I’ll let you know what I find out. Pump place is sending a technician up next week to assist in diagnosing it as well.
Good plan !
Looks like to me pump2 is the issue after I swapped the lines
Did you see Steve's comment? Pump 2 pressure came up, so, if the pressure transducer sensors/wires were not switched, then the issue would be in the control valve, specifically, the system relief isolation check valve on the 4 spool side would be my guess. Steve mentioned this in post #158 (see below). He posted this picture, so I would suggest checking #17. It also wouldn't hurt to check #59 as well.
If you get time remove valve 17 and spring send us a picture and measure length of spring as close as you can. I would prefer a caliper measurement, but a tape measure will be good.
Well the pump place came to my site and flow tested the pump. Both pump 1&2 showed 32gpm at 5000psi. So pump is good. I have an issue else where so I will reset and review notes and try to do everything to try to avoid pulling the valve controller.
Interested to see what you find per suggested path in posts #247 and 248.
agree and i will follow up once i have pulled them.
Sorry for the late reply here folks, i had some delays here on my end and i messed with the hoe a little and here is the update, still need to perform post 247 above as suggested, but i did boom the machine down just to see what would happen since that was the only function i did not try and while booming down i worked the tracks and was able to get the left tract to work and the right was trying but boom up was still a no go...my question is this along with performing post #247, which spool works boom up and right track? I've been reading and i keep going to the spool and i just want to check the one associated with boom up and right track. thanks....i hope to work on it this weekend and i will follow up.
.
Thanks for the info...I'll let you all know what I find.
Hey The Dirt Guy, did you ever get your issue figured out?
Not solved, but more narrowed down now...and the thought is a piece of metal is in the control valve causing the issue. I have not began to remove the caps yet but after that if nothing is found in the spools then its deeper which will make me remove the control valve assembly.
I have got what think is about the same issue going on with the machine I just bought. It seems that a lot of people are having issues. If you find out what is causing yours please let me know and if I figure mine out I'll be sure to send you a message.
Thanks I plan on tearing into it soon I’m starting to get motivated to get back to the machine.
Hi Randi I am new to forum but have exact issues with my 160clc. I had the deere mechanic , where i bought the machine from come out to investigate. Check all hydraulic pressures function, engine functions, codes etc finally said there is a magnetic speed senor on the engine block just below the muffler, (wires were exposed and said maybe too much heat ), that measures engine rpm so I bought a new one and no difference. I also found in the ecu that a lith batt is in it and has a life of 10-15 years. My machine 20+ years still original one. Did you ever solve your problem? tks Ron
tks I have replaced the speed sensor no change the main hydraulic and engine ECU controller no change check the flows no problem, I have plenty of power but higher speed hydraulic function . We opened the old ECU but found no lithium battery as indicated on the outside of the ECU. The strange part of all of this was last month i needed to move the machine out of the way by just tracking it then all of a sudden all the functions started to work! I needed to get some work done on my farm and it work 100% normal for 3 hours. The shut it off and started it up the next day...and back to the same slow functions..I also replaced all the solenoids no change
Folks I FINALLY fixed my deere/hitachi 160c lc that had Slow hydraulic functions ( derate). I am not a mechanic but hired several heavy equipment and hydraulic mechanics. We check everything suggested on this ste more or less. ON THE ALTERNATOR THERE IS A WIRE THAT GOES TO F4 FUSE (10 AMP ) LABELED SOLENOID. The fused wire appears to supple power along with others sources to the hydraulic computer which was also replaced!. We initially checked all the fuses several times during my 9 months of troubleshooting this problem. The alternator has a resistor? component on the side of it with a wire going to the F4 fuse this alternator component seemed to work fine without incidence. However just by chance I decided to check the fuses again while awaiting for another mechanic team to arrive! for the 5th time. THe fuse was blown! I couldn't believe it! I then replaced the fuse and ALL functions returned to normal!!!!! I couldn't believe it. I spent over $10k in parts and service cost not counting my time. So i wondered how this could be possible? I turned the machine on and off several times to see if there was a start problem that may have caused this ...so far the machine work normal. This was yesterday so I thought I would immediately post this for others with the same situation. Ron
Fuse F4 blown hence no power to the speed sense solenoid. By default,full pilot pressure signal from the speed sense solenoid to both hydraulic pump regulators would have decreased pump displacement.