Hi all, I didn't know whether to post this here or under forestry. We have a JD 440a skidder with a 219 engine. We rebuilt the engine having the crank turned and getting a rebuild kit with a 20 over (if I remember correctly) for the crank grinding. New pistons, rods, liners, and bearings. Everything went together except when we tried to match up the numbers on the main bearing caps to the block, they were binding. We found they only fit correctly flipped around (???), we could spin the crank by hand easily, torqued everything, timed everything including static timing of the IP. With everything hooked up it cranked pretty hard. We figured it's because of the new parts. We also hold in the clutch just to keep the transmission drag off the engine. Bled the injector lines at the injectors. When we tried starting it, it started but with a higher RPM than idle (maybe 1500). We shut it down within five seconds, and checked what was wrong. We thought the throttle linkage needed to be adjusted so we did it and tried again. Once again it started to run higher than idle again (1500), so within three seconds we shut it down. When we did, it stopped almost immediately, but no unusual noise, bang or thud. Upon investigation of the IP, there was an aluminum shim inside the IP shaft holding the metering valve mostly if not fully open. It was probably put in there to keep the weights from falling out, so we removed it. We missed that one putting it on. When we tried to start it all we got was white smoke. We tried adjusting the IP timing from one stop to the other (by turning the IP). The best spot seemed to be where the initial static timing line is, but it won't start. Suspected the IP, rebuilt it, no change. Tried the rebuilt IP on another running 219 and the other machine ran fine, so we left that pump on the other machine and installed the known running IP on the rebuilt engine. Same thing. Tried new injectors, still white smoke. It smokes and almost starts but not quite. What combustion is going on helps it spin faster, as when you kill the IP it slows down quite a bit. It just doesn't seem to get over the threshold of actual running. We tried checking the compression, but we don't have a diesel compression checker. We tried to rig up an a/c pressure gauge, but found it hard to hold in as it's supposed to be 350, but it did register about 180. We pulled the head and checked the valves which seemed to be fine. This head was not shopped as the condition of the valves and head seemed to be ok. We then took the gear cover off and rechecked the timing. Everything still lined up, cam, balancers, and IP gear. Later we tried another head that was previously on a running machine with no luck, setting the rocker arm gap at .014 intake and .018 exhaust as before. With the newly installed head we get black smoke now, but it still won't start. We have checked the intake filter, no problems, tried it with the exhaust off, checked the fuel transfer pump - good fuel. The fuel that's in it is about 5 months old. We have tried to hand crank the engine, but can't. Even when we took the head off, we couldn't spin it by hand from the front pulley bolt, but from the top, the pistons looked fine and seemed to move up and down as they should. We did bolt down the liners before we spun it without the head. We tried to pry it from the timing hole in the bell housing but still couldn't get it to move. The starter spins it fairly good, and when what little combustion we get happens, it helps it a bit more. We don't know if this is a big issue or what. We've rebuilt several 219 engines without having problems. We are thinking about the cam, but it's hard to check the valve travel without being able to hand crank it. The starter whips it over too fast to get an accurate reading. That's the latest thing we thought of. Simply; we've been chasing our tail for a week or so now trying to figure out what's the problem. We're also starting to wonder if anything happened when it first started at a higher RPM. Also if it being so tight is normal on a rebuild or not. The other engines we did, I don't remember hand cranking them after the rebuild, they just started and ran. Any experience, suggestions, or opinions would help.
That sounds like a distorted block to me. Can be caused by running hot until it shuts down. Then after cooling down the crank and pistons are free again. Also caused by core shift. What would cause that except heat? Won't start problem i have no answer for at this time.
That could be. This block came from a machine we bought because it was a B model. The story was that some relative of his had this with a flex pipe muffler and it sat for a while. Water got in and the engine was seized up so he got it and tore the engine down to rebuild it. He never got around to rebuilding it, so put it up for sale and we bought it. We put the engine from our A into the B and have been using that on the job. Since the A is just for our use we finally have some time to put the engine together and put it in. We don't really know what the history or condition of the engine we're trying to rebuild.
Im not familiar with this engine at all. This isn't right at all. NO Not good. Not right at all. You really need to start this rebuild over before something gets destroyed. It sounds like a hodge podge of different engine parts trying to get 1 good running engine. The first problem is the binding of the crankshaft in the engine block. With the right bearing clearance you should be able to turn the crankshaft by hand easily once the main caps are torqued. You have main caps that are not matching the line bore of the engine block and it is causing the bind. It may just be 1, but could be several. This binding could be 90% of the issues you are describing. The best way to find this out is to place the crank in the block with the new bearings, put the caps on, but only seat them with light tapping, then just seat the main cap bolts. Torque 1 cap at a time, leaving the thrust cap for last...….check the crank movement after each cap...….you will find the problem child quickly.
Part of our confusion is due to the engine was already tore down when we got it, so we had no reference to how it was before we got it. I wasn't clear about the main bearing end caps. They bound up when we matched the numbers as soon as we started threading the bolts in. We took a micrometer to the crank and bearings to make sure they were the same size, they were. After this we tried flipping the main caps around and they fit. We torqued them to spec (approx. 95 ft/lbs) and it spun easily by hand fine, fully torqued. They must have been put on wrong previously to fit so well. I don't remember at what point we stopped try spinning everything by hand though, so at some point it became hard.
Kinda sounds like you may have rolled a liner o-ring when you installed liners? Bob
At this point I think anything is possible. It might be back to square one and tear it down and start again. We were just trying to eliminate anything it could be before starting over. It's a possibility that the block or something else is in worse shape than we were led to believe. A big question we have is should we be able to roll it over by hand. I think we should be able to, but some others (not here on hef) have said that with new liners, rings, pistons, etc., that you wouldn't until it gets broken in. Up here in the sticks it's not easy to find good answers. The one guy who knew about everything there was to know on these engines passed away last summer. Most shops around the area send everything out, and the ones that do it are slow and expensive.
If you mean roll over with a 1/2" ratchet yes you should be able to. When you install each piston turn the motor over 1 time and do the next ,if it becomes harder stop and check why. Good luck Bob
Thanks, I figured as much. We put a grade 8 bolt in the end of the crank and used a breaker bar. We didn't want to put too much torque on it as to snap the bolt, but I'm guessing around 200 lbs or so. One thing we thought we might check is to pull off the idler gears and see exactly what is giving the resistance, being careful not to hit an open valve with a piston. We could get the crank where all pistons are in the mid position, rotate the cam feeling it's resistance, then take the head off and check the rest. Next step would be to start over. In hindsight we could have had it torn down, rebuilt and back in by now. One of those things of... it might be this.... oh, it might be that.... then it might be that over there...... sheeeeesh!! On top of this my cell phone has decided to go into a continuous reboot loop!! I think that super wolf blood moon eclipse thing did a number on our stuff!!
When you put the crank in and torqued the mains it should spin freely with no drag sounds like mains are mis matched tear it down and have the block line bored
You mentioned pushing in the clutch.....which reminds me of a project I inherited many years ago. Motor was fresh but locked up solid. I pulled it and upon removing the flywheel I saw perfect indentions where the flywheel bolts were hitting the rear main seal. Not a little but a LOT. Maybe you have interference somewhere other than main bearings. Could have a rod end that’s egged. Lots of options Maybe that story will spur a thought and you’ll find the culprit.
I keep thinking about this as I rebuild a few JD engines a year. I think I would turn it upside down and take all of the rods loose and start from there.
Thanks again. We have decided enough is enough and are in the process of pulling the motor to tear it down and find out what's what. On one hand I hope we find the issue, and the other I hope it isn't too serious. We're not sure if we'll get to it tomorrow, but probably by at least Saturday.
The main caps should have an embossed arrow (or arrow shape) to them and the arrow points towards the camshaft. Also make sure the stamped word "front" on the rods is actually facing front. Definitely should be able to turn the crank by hand (no pistons) when the mains are torqued.
You'll probably find the culprit on the 2 go-roud.. That said, What are u gonna do about the other/original inj. pump? Can u post a pic. of the "shim" that you found in the pump.?? I'm always willing to help out a fellow member w/ inj. pump problems.
Keep us up to date. Whoever guessed this right gets a dozen hot fresh chocolate chips cookies
Speaking of Yummy.. The wife made me 2 Blueberry English muffins, slathered in Strawberry cream cheese w/ a piping hot cup of coffee. Now THAT will make your tongue start slappin your gums.!!! I'm hooked.
Is she single?! …...oh wait....
Sounds good!! As far as the crank went. There were no arrows stamped in them, just numbers just off center of the caps. When we started, we matched number to number and it bound the crank as soon as we started the bolt. After we miked the crank and new bearings we knew they were correct. We then put the caps on without the crank being in and there was an overhang lip where the cap came in contact with the block. We then flipped them and they lined up perfectly. We then put the crank and caps (flipped around) in and just started the bolts and it spun easily. We then started tightening the bolts checking the freedom of the crank every few turns. The crank spun easily by hand even when we had the cap bolts torqued to specs. I think the numbers got stamped on the wrong side as they don't even line up properly when matched. As we think back, we turned the crank with the pistons in it by hand to torque the rod cap bolts, beyond that were not sure if we spun it anymore or not. I think we set it at TDC and then installed the balancers, cam, and idler gears. We can't remember turning it by hand after that, but we will this time. The rods were stamped with a front on them as well as the pistons. We installed them with the front side toward the front of the engine. We kept referencing the book and took our time at every step, that's what's confusing, but something went wrong somewhere. The other injection pump is on the other machine running fine. I don't know if we'll swap them again or just leave them be. I'll try to find the shim and take a pic. It was a thin piece of aluminum rolled up to fit in the shaft hole. I will take some pictures and post them once we get into it. I'll take some pics of the crank caps just so everyone can see. We're getting a bunch of snow and have a few other things to do, so it might be Friday afternoon or Saturday till we get to it.
Not sure if they’re of the same design but I rebuilt a couple of 4276 Deere engines and as I recall they had balance shafts and required a special tool to make sure all the various gears were in time.
We don't have the tool, I think it's JD 234 or something, but looking at the pictures it lines up with the center of the crank. So we took a straight edge and went center of crank to center of shaft of whatever is being timed and put the timing mark along that line. The tool looks like a Y. That brings up a question we had about the balancers. The book said to mark them left or right before you take them out, but no way to id them otherwise. We got the engine dismantled and they weren't marked left or right. Both of them have the same numbers and no left or right designation. They have the timing marks on the gear. They can go one of two ways. If the timing marks are aligned with the crank, does it matter which way they go?? Or is it that as long as they are spinning counter opposed the important part??
Again it’s been a long time. Hopefully someone with more recent experience can chime in.
Yeah the higher rpm sounds like motor was too tight causing governor to stroke pump....caps going on backwards is not right at all...did you lube liner seals before putting them in? Do not use oil as they will swell. Also i use bearing floss...looks like dental floss...it measure bearing clearance when torqued. Also if caps didnt fit...sounds like line bore was not done...i would always line bore on an unknown engine.
If you get balancers wrong it will run ..till u put a load on...then you break crank...dont ask how i know...lol
Oh man not sure about the left and right. We always mark them...i used a letter punch set.
With #1 piston top dead center on compression the weights should be straight down. There used to be an "L" or "R" stamped on the back of the balancer behind the last journal. They are different art numbers.
We didn't use any lube on the liners just slid them in. Good to know about the balancers, I'll check again for l or r, but the straight down part we can make sure of. And then mark them!!
Ok....Who's the winner? After pulling the engine and pulling off the oil pan, it was obvious it was the last bearing causing the issue. The crank was pushed forward and whatever the piece that the flywheel bolts to is called, was rubbing on the thrust portion of the back bearing (#5). We didn't get the crank pulled out yet, but with #5 bearing cap removed, the crank spun fine. I'm not sure what how bad the damage is to anything, but so far it seems contained to the bearing. Here are pics of the oil pan with shavings, #5 cap, and the crank still in the block. We were able to tap the crank forward. When we first pulled it apart, the bearing and back of the crank were touching. We think we probably bumped the crank on the spline while putting the engine in. We don't recall it bumping or it hitting hard, but with the weight of the engine, it probably doesn't take much to move it (the crank). Which brings up the question of if we did bump it, would it stay there or work away from where it's touching and binding? Or what else would've caused it?
More pics.
Could you load pictures of the rest of the main caps? It looks to me that you have one swapped. The picture of the block side shows a thrust bearing and the main cap picture doesn't have a thrust bearing in it. Either the bearing is in the wrong place on the block or the wrong main cap is installed.
Now that you mention it, I know what you mean. I'll get more pics tomorrow as we get it apart. I will also try to pics of how the caps line up with the block. Looking at these pics I'm getting myself confused!!
I agree with Paul. The thrust bearing should go all the way around, not just 180 degrees. plus thrust main caps are different then the rest. You must have the other half of thrust bearing in the wrong location also. lucky it didn't run long.
Take note that when you have the proper caps in the proper place and you install the thrust bearing and it's cap Deere's procedure says to install thrust cap hand tight then tap crank towards the rear (use a dead blow, not a steel hammer), then tap crank towards the front then tighten the bearing cap (see highlighted text in attachment). Then check your end play. It should be 0.002" - 0.015". Make sure when you install engine you still have crank end play and that something external is not "pushing" the crank front. Also if you would please, post a picture of the number side of the main caps.
LOL MG.. I was just gonna write that.. good call.
I'm feeling HUNGRY for them dam cookies! LOL
I see in the picture it's hard to see the flange on the outer part of the cap. I will get more pics up later today. We also did tap the crank both directions to set the thrust bearing before we torqued the caps, that's why we were thinking something moved the crank forward either during or after the install. It's hard to see the stamped numbers on the caps, but I'll try to get at an angle where it shows up. These were the caps that came with this block and engine. I see what a nightmare it is getting an engine that has already been torn down.
That bearing in the lower cap looks like a upper bearing. Bob
in the picture of the #5 main journal, the fillet radius of the crank does not appear to match the bearing. so either the thrust bearing is in another location, the crank is not properly reground or the crank is wrong for that block. were all the upper bearing shells installed with the oil holes lined up properly? usually, the lower shells don't have oil holes in them
I now have a question as far as matching up the stamped numbers. Are they supposed to line up if the engine was split in half left to right or front to back. If it's front to back the numbers align. All of the bearings had oil holes in them. I'm attaching several pics. Here is the order of pics: Number on cap #1 Numbers are at my finger tip and tip of thumb which are hard to see. I couldn't get at any better angle. In order #1 through #5 #5 bearing outside of block - 2 pics #5 bearing inside of block next 4 are of the caps with bearings in without the crank. I see #2 wasn't all the way down, but it does go. #5 bearing slot without the bearing outside the block #5 bearing slot without the bearing inside the block #5 thrust bearing removed.
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I'm not sure if I labeled them right so here is a rundown by pic number: 1360 Number on cap #1 1361 my finger on the block by the number, my thumb tip by the number on the cap 1362 #2 1363 #3 1364 #4 1365 #5 (thrust bearing) 1368 #5 outside of block 1369 #5 outside of block 1370 #5 inside of block 1371 #1 main bearing 1372 #2 main bearing - cap is not seated all the way, but will seat all the way down 1373 #3 main bearing 1375 #4 main bearing 1376 #5 bearing slot without the bearing from outside the block 1377 #5 bearing slot without the bearing from inside the block 1378 #5 thrust bearing removed 1381 #5 thrust bearing removed I know when we put it in the first time we tapped it from the front and back like the book said, but I don't remember checking the end throw. Book said .002 - .008 with no more than .015 play
In your picture 1356 the crank is trash. The thrust bearing has worn into the fillet. Some engines do only have a thrust bearing in the block. Every engine I have worked on had the bearing tabs, locks, on the same side ( lock to lock on each bearing ) except one. It was something foreign. They will all be the same in an individual engine. I don,t know this machine but looks like the torque converter or some thing with the clutch was not lined up pushing the crank forward. At lot of the posts and pictures are had for me to follow. If everyone will zoom in on 1356 I thank we will agree this engine needs a crank and line bore if it is repairable.
Why not find another motor and start over, this one is a mess and going to cost a fortune to make right if it ever does work
It could come to that. We are checking into a few ideas and options we have. The good thing is we don't need this up and running right now. It would be nice to get it out of the shop though.
Whos to say the thrust location on the crank and block wasn't f&*^ed to begin with. Maybe that's why the engine was torn down and left in pieces. There isn't enough metal in either place to support the thrust bearing for any length of time. Trying to use that as is would be futile.
1st) Agree with others, the fillets on #5 crank journal appear not properly ground, resulting in too little clearance at outer edges of the bearings. The #5 thrust faces are fed with the oil that bleeds out of this interface. Tight clearance = little flow.....disaster Can you plastigage #5 journal with a piece across the whole journal? 2nd) Check the pilot bearing location. Is it installed correctly? The input shaft may be pushing the crankshaft forward with a load because of contact. The input shaft shoulder should not be pushing the pilot bearing after you bolt the trans / engine together. I don't have a John Deere manual for this spec. 3rd) Was there a flex plate or gasket of some sort between engine and trans that was missed on rebuild? Good luck!
I think the pictures are misleading, but looking at the crank out of the block it doesn't look damaged and the fillet seems fine. Once it warms up a bit we will get back at it. It's been in the -10s at night and single digits during the day for about a week and the rest of this week is the same. Once it warms, we'll check some clearances and fit for some answers. It could be a lost cause for this one, but we'll check to see. We don't have any plastiguage on hand, but I can pick some up and check for the vertical oil clearance. Didn't think about the pilot bearing, that could've been the cause of the crank being pushed forward. Thanks everyone, I'll keep this updated to let everyone know the final outcome.
PJ One other thought: check the pilot bearing design , if it's the original pilot bearing from the 440B than it may have been a different clutch. They have different ID pilot bearings. Your 440A input shaft OD may be the larger design and the 440B pilot bearing ID the smaller design. When engine was installed the input shaft just pushed the pilot bearing deep into the crank bore , which wasn't far enough and results in a constant load forward.... Suggest you inspect the back end of crank and pilot ID and input shaft OD... if not just insure you had a "slip fit" rust free joint... Good luck!
Will do. We can mike the spline shaft and the hollow portion of the crank to check clearance, as well as the pilot bearing. Still waiting on the replacement thrust bearing and for it to warm up. We're still in the single digits for highs, but it's supposed to warm up this weekend.
Ok, we checked clearances and wear on everything and nothing is out of tolerance. I got a new thrust bearing and checked all that and have .003 on the end play where it said no less than .015 and between .002 and .008. I got the engine put back together and can turn the flywheel all the way over by hand. So we might get it in today and be able to try tomorrow. Pilot bearing, what pilot bearing? I guess that's what happens when there are too many cooks in the kitchen. With two of us working on it, if failed to get noticed and there wasn't one in it. It's the B bearing with the .985 ID and 2.440 OD. Tried to mike the clearance looks pretty close with .005 to spare between the end of the spline and the pilot bearing. We'll recheck everything again. No one remembers or even the book doesn't say anything about having a shim between the engine and the transmission, so I don't think that is the issue. We'll see how this works.
Success!! We put everything together and it all check out fine with measurements and spinning by hand, so we stuck it in, bolted it up and it runs! Did the break in procedure and retorqued the head. Seems to be running great. We're still not sure where things went wrong the first time. We had it spinning by hand at least until we got the pistons in and probably after the head to adjust the rocker arms, but we don't remember if we gapped the rocker arms before or after we got it in the machine. The most likely case is either when putting it in it bumped up against the spline shaft and pushed the crank forward (which we don't recall it doing anything that hard), or the spline shaft wasn't completely lined up when we bolted it in, binding somewhere and when the bolts drew it in, it pressed against the crank. In hindsight we never knew how easily or hard the engine should turn over with new parts in it. Had we known that, that it should have turned easier than it was, we could have saved a lot of time checking everything else out. Apparently there was enough binding and friction that it would smoke and almost start, but too much force working against it to kick over and run. It's also a good thing it didn't run. It probably would have start tearing up other parts that are more expensive than a bearing. Happy ending so far! Thanks everyone for your help. It's a good place to go when you start to bang your head on the wall trying to figure out what's wrong.