My John Deere 310 D back hoe quit/stopped running this afternoon. Just like the switch was turned out. I had started it up traveled over to my pasture that is about 400 yards away. I had got some stuff in the loader bucket and moved up about ten feet and it cut off. It has fuel in the tank and I'm getting power to the injector pump with the switch on and the engine cranking over. That's about all I had a chance to check, since I dropped the drive shaft out of my wrecker trying to get it out of the pasture and closer to the shop. It was a good time to quit as I was getting really po'ed at the time. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
Hold the solenoid shut off open and see if it will start . I've done it with a piece of hay wire.
Where is it located?
I think the solenoid action is hidden/internal. I'd check to see that the solenoid is clicking, turn the key on, remove the wire at the solenoid, and reconnect the wire, it should click each time you reconnect. If that clicks, then check that your injector pump is getting fuel, then loosen one injector line at the injector and see if there's any fuel squirting while cranking, if not, remove the fuel return and see if there's any fuel pumping there when cranking.
Maybe I can get in before dark and try this. Thanks
THAT DESCRIPTION ISNT GOOD.. I normally hear that exact same scenario when a pump seizes.. The head & rotor locks up.. Now if it slowely dies out like is was running out of fuel, we could work w/ that.. IF your SURE u have power to the solenoid while cranking.. try this. Pull the INLET hose & fitting off the pump.. Take note of where the fuel level is in the back of the pump.. I normally advise people to fill it up to the top..w/fuel. NOW crank it over & recheck the fuel level in the back of the pump.. IF it went DOWN.. thats GOOD.. IF it stayed the same.. break out the ol' check book.. cuz its gonna sting..
Haven’t been able to get in early to check it. May take off Friday and try this took.
Finally was able to check a couple things. I have power to the solenoid in the injector pump. Took the wire off touched it back to the terminal with the switch on, clicked each time I put it on. Took both pressure and return lines loose from the Injector pump. Used lever on supply pump and got fuel to the injector pump on each pump. With the line loose on top of the injector pump I had helper to crank the engine over. Fuel was pushed out the top of the pump. I loosened a injector line and cranked the engine over too. But never got any fuel from the the connection at the pump that goes to an injector. There wasn't a flood of fuel coming from the line at the pump but I figured this would be much better had it started. The pressure line comes to the pump in the center of the lines that goes to the injectors? The one on top of the pump is a return line? Any other suggestions?
Try thepumpguy's method in post #6, you want to see if the injection pump will move fuel without the transfer pump pressurizing it.
YEAH, THATS AN EASY CHECK.. & if the fuel gets sucked down into the inlet, we know it isnt seized & can work from there..
I guess I’m missing something here. Take the inlet hose and fitting off the transfer pump or the injector pump? On the injector pump it appears that the line in the middle of the four injector line is the supply? The one on top of the injector pump appers to be the return? Thanks
Yes, take the inlet and outlet off the injection pump, and see if the level goes down as you crank the engine. If the level moves, then we can try other things. If it doesn't move, I think you're taking the pump off. You want to see if the injection pump is turning. The transfer pump runs off a different part, we know that is working.
Yes, the fitting in the back is the INLET & the 1 on the TC is RETURN.
I disconnected both lines. Removed the adapter fitting on top. It was full of fuel. Cracked the engine over several times. Fuel level didn't lower if anything it pushed some out.
did the inlet level drop? I'm not picturing this injection pump that well.
The inlet line comes in horizontal, picture a clock with the injector line connecting to the pump at 12, 3, 6 and 9. With the supply line connected in the middle.
1 MORE TIME.... Take the FITTING OUT of the inlet on the BACK of the Inj. PUMP.. Pour enough fuel INTO THE INLET till its to the top.. CRANK THE ENGINE & get off AND LOOK AT THE INLET where u poured the fuel to the top.. Is the GD fuel STILL THERE ?? is it sucked down???
The red circle is the inlet fuel supply, right? The black circle is the return? With this line being horizontal, I'm just totally missing what i need to do to fill this connection. Maybe the picture helps explain my setup more. Sorry for the confusion on my part. This was what I done earlier this afternoon; I had both supply and return lines taken loose and the adapter fitting for the return top line on top. The port for the return line was full of fuel. Had my son Crank the engine over and a little fuel pushed out the return line port.
NOBODY BUT U have said anything about the RETURN.. The WHOLE process is done on the fkn INLET.. Take the BRASS FITTING OUT of the INLET.. then theres a HOLE.. FILL THE fkn HOLE w/ fuel.. CRANK THE ENGINE.. does the fuel go down or stay the same.?? U make it hard to love you.. Lol..
I removed the inlet line and fitting. Could not tell much about the fuel level. After putting the fitting back in filling it with fuel and cranking it over the fuel disappeared. This was done three or four times. Something else I did; I removed the fuel filter/water separator didn't see that there was a drain on the bottom before removing. It had some water and other nasty looking stuff. Put the filter back on stroked the transfer pump until I got fuel with no air at the top of the filter housing. I reason I checked the fuel filter / water separator was I took the inlet line loose, pushed a plastic drink bottle over the line to catch some fuel and it didn't seem to have very much fuel coming to the injector pump. I had my son pumping it for maybe a minute and didn't get over a couple ounces of fuel. With the engine turning over, it's not much better. I feel the love, LOL, HUH!
That's good, it means the pump isn't locked up completely. I'd replace the fuel filters if you don't know when they were replaced last. Take apart any fitting between the tank and the transfer pump to check for garbage. Or blow back to the tank from the transfer pump. Do whatever it takes to get the fuel flowing better. Then loosen a couple of injector lines at the injector, carefully to not bend the injector, use two wrenches. Then hook the supply back to the injection pump and crank for ten seconds at a time, with five minutes rest, until you get fuel out the injector lines with no bubbles, then tighten them and it should start.
I still confused.. u put the fitting back in the inlet & checked the fuel level.?? its a 90* fitting..u couldnt fill it w/o it coming out.. As long as u have a helper..Take the INLET LINE back off..{the one in the back, not the return on top} put your thumb/finger over the inlet fitting HOLE.. crank the engine.. it should suck your finger/thumb..
With the pump in a horizontal position, filling with fuel is almost impossible and a mirror must be used top see in it. I did put the 90° fitting back in and poured about add much on everything as I did in it. I did that for a number of times and when cranking the fuel you could see disappeared. I may get a chance to mess with it this week and I will try taking the inlet line loose to see if it has any suction to it. Was you able to see the picture? The supply line comes top the pump at and angle an the 90° fitting/adapter is connecting the two together. Maybe I'm missing something with filling this up and watching or looking after cranking it over a spell. Thanks.
I am following this with great interest as I have a same machine. I am also confused. Can I try to clarify? thepumpguysc, look on page 20, in the photo of 138.4 KB, there is a brass elbow with fitting removed. (Is circled in red). Is that the elbow you want filled with fuel?
OK.. I'M up to speed now.. Yes, thats the fitting.. I was under the impression it was a DBGFC pump.. U have DB2-
Lots of time at work, dealing with the holidays, and currently out of town has keep me away from checking on it as i really need/want too. Plan to work on it after Christmas. Question; it seems when i pulled the cover from over the batteries several weeks ago looking at somthing and it had two batteries. I know i had 12V when i checked the voltage at the pump. So i likely have two six volt batteris? If it does can i charge it with jumper cables from my truck? The batteries are spinning it over rather good, but i know this will not hold out long if it doesn't start. I really do appreciate the advice.
This is showing some promise!
You have 2 12 volt batteries in parallel, you can charge it with jumper cables from your truck. Look at the batteries, both have six cells/caps, and the pos is hooked to pos, and the neg is hooked to neg and both to ground, that makes 12V, amperages add together. If you get the fuel flowing, then you shouldn't have any trouble getting it to start, assuming the fuel is blocked somewhere and the injection pump is still good, maybe shouldn't assume that yet. Don't keep cranking it if the fuel is not flowing, figure out where it's blocked.
Took a week off, went out of town a couple day to come back with the flu. Took the wife to a doc in the whole out of town, come home Christmas eve, day after Christmas both of us went to the doctor, she has type A and I have type B. And both are contagious, so it's possible for both of us to catch the others and be sick even longer. Even of the small stuff. I finally got it out of the pasture so I'm not messing with a gate when I back and forth. I took the supply line loose from the injector pump added a short piece of clear hose to the pump fitting and filled it with fuel so I could watch what the fuel done. My son cranked the engine over a about five seconds and the pump sucked all the fuel in the hose right on out. I took the supply line loose from the transfer pump and blew air back into the tank. The is a black cap on top of the filter that can be taken off and I did. While this was off, we hand pumped the small pump until we got some fuel back to this point. I noticed when I would pump it we would get some fuel, but it would go back down between strokes, like it had a check valve that wasn't holding. I put the cover back on top of the filter and started pumping (by hand), but the lever on the pump doesn't seem To get hard like it's building much pressure. You can pump on it several times and crack a line and there's not pressure or air escaping. I think when I took the line loose from the Injector pump and we were pumping by hand we was only getting the fuel in the line draining to the pump since it lower ft Han the filter. I put the fuel line back on the injector pump and tried pumping by hand for a minute or so. Then crack the line and some fuel would run out if I loosened it a few rounds. It never really seemed to build any kind of pressure. This doesn't seem right and sorta leaves me thinking the transfer pump make have took a crap. I know when I change filters on my ** tractor h you can pump it by hand and crack a line at the filter and you can see and hear fuel and air escaping. I had about I wanted (for the day) as it was getting close to dark too. So we loaded up and come back to my shop. So I'm sitting in here chilling with an adult drink listening to the radio. Maybe this helps clear up the water some. Thanks for any advice as its greatly appreciated. Wade
yes, that sounds like a problem. The transfer pump is driven by a lobe on the camshaft, if the cam is in position that it's operating the pump, then you can't operate it with the finger lever. Try rotating the engine and try again to see if you get a longer stroke. This style of diaphragm pump WILL NOT get hard to pump when it pumps up fuel pressure, the lever does not pump the fuel, the lever and cam PULL the diaphragm BACK sucking in fuel from the supply. If you plug the inlet with your finger and pump, you'll feel it's harder to pump. As the fuel pressure builds, the diaphragm is held back by the pressure, and the lever is only returned by the little return spring, NOT the main diaphragm spring, making it very easy to pump the lever. If you release a little fuel from the pressure side, you can feel the resistance for a partial stroke. There is only a few PSI developed by these pumps, but it will spray if you have a finger over the outlet, or open a fitting, or release air in the system. Taking the inlet and outlet off the transfer pump and blocking with a finger should make it fairly easy to see if it's functioning. you could try blowing air through it the way it pumps fuel, and checking for debris. They're not that expensive to replace, or you could try an electric transfer pump for testing purposes.
I did have to turn the engine over a few times to get it off the high log so it would pump. If it didn't have any kind of resistance the lever wouldn't return. If it's not raining tomorrow I'll try taking the lines off to see if I can tell if it's working. We used an air tank to blow air back to the tank to ensure the supply line to the pump was clear. I had the line off or loose on the injector pump and we tried blowing up the tank with air to help push the fuel back to the supply pump and filter. The fuel at the injector pump never got any better while doing this.
Don't know what to say, it sounds like you have a good understanding of the lift pump. The air should have given you some fuel flow, maybe take the lines apart and try the air again to see if it flows much better some places to see where it's blocked. That's if the pump seems to work.
Any chance of algae or some other crap plugging or restricting the strainer (#5) in the fuel tank?
I thought about the opportunity with algae as a few years back my ** farm tractor quit or just shut down. I started pulling it back to my shop and tried starting it while being pulled and it started right up. This happened three or four times and a friend said it maybe the supply pump. I replaced it with some success, so I thought. It never happened very frequently. After a couple more times of it quitting, I spoke with our company's rolling stock manager. He said it sounded like sometime in the tank that would block the fuel flow. The next time it quit, I pulled the shut off from the tank and drained the fuel out. There was some of the worse stuff came out I had ever seen in a fuel tank. I had always been careful not to pour nasty fuel in it so I was shocked. After removing the tank abs cleaning it out it has been fine. The shop manager said the fuel we are getting now will grow stuff like that of it sits very much. If I get a break in the rain today, I'll check this too. That's for the fuel piping schematic. I'll put it to good use to.
It won't take much to block the screen in the fuel tank. Blowing air through the line back into the tank is a temporary fix at best. Sometimes it doesn't help at all. The crap just gets sucked right back into the screen like you have or into the lift pump if there is no filter between it and the tank. I always preferred to put 2 to 4 psi of air pressure into the tank and force fuel and whatever else is in the tank out of the outlet opening. In your case the screen has to be removed first. I have had many experiences with Caterpillar scrapers and dozers when there were rags in a fuel tank.
Good catch Tinkerer, that screen will work fine with a lot of gunk on it, then flatten and block off the inlet, causing it to die faster than Thepumpguy was expecting for fuel starvation. The rubber hose will be cracked through by now if it's original, when the screen sucks flat, the hose sucks air, you're dead in the water. If the hose is cracked, you can grind the ferrule off the fitting and put a new fuel line on the o ring flat face fitting with hose clamps, then run it into a clean jug of fuel for testing purposes.
Finally got a break from the six - seven twelve hours at work so I got to work on the backhoe a while. I replaced the transfer pump, pulled the line from the tank, cleaned it (was dirty/coated). Still didn't seem to get fuel as it should. The line from the tank to the small was removed, put it back on the pump and put the other end in a fuel can. It seemed to pump up easier, but I did get fuel to the injector pump. Then I cracked/loosen three injector lines at the pump, started it with a little ether and kept it running long enough to loosen the supply line to the injector pump and it was pushing a lot of fuel out. Tightened it back and never got any fuel to the loosened injector lines. So I'm probably looking at a bad injector pump? Any suggestions?
The line from the tank to the small was removed. Meant to be the line from the tank to the transfer pump was removed.
How can the shut off solenoid be checked?
It should CLICK when u turn the key.. If u cant hear it, u might "feel it" when the key is cycled..
While turning the key on/off I can hear it clicking. So if it's clicking, it's good? Nothing to fail and it still click? Thanks for the help.
Just because the solenoid is clicking doesn’t mean it’s moving the metering valve.. u have to remove the top cover to verify that.. & I think if u remove the tc, you’ll find the real problem..
Thanks, I appreciate the advice. Will try this the next chance I can. Is there anything else under the tc that could stand out to the trained eye, that could be bad?
Just search Roosa Master metering valve.. to get an idea of what it looks like.. Every one (310) I’ve ever seen is full of rust..from not draining off the water in the filter.
Hello Dodgwade, I have a 1996 310d and I'm experiencing the same issue that yours had. Were you able to find a fix for it? I have been reading thru all the post and I have had no luck finding the issue to my 310d. Have help would be great. Thank you sir!
Welcome to HEF, LivinNice ! Dodgwade hasn't logged in since his last post above. A year ago today ! Is your solenoid clicking when the key is turned on and off ? If it is follow the advice posted by thepumpguysc.
Well guys, between being forced to take retirement a little early (needed about a year and a half for full benefits) I finally got some opportunities taken care of. Got a job that has virtually no stress which might contribute to living longer. I appreciate everyone that offered some input with the opportunity I had with my backhoe. Thepumpguy pretty well nailed it. Had to get the injector pump rebuild. It sheared a pin that's between the front shaft and rear shaft. Or at least that's the way I understand the info the rebuilder offered up. He said the pump had a lot of rust in it and I should make sure the tank didn't have a bunch in it. I had to replace the all the fuel lines between the tank and transfer pump. The guy that's helping me works on forklifts and he suggested adding a fuel filter such as one a Ford truck has. Looking into that. Likely draining the water off the filter pirorto the transfer pump might help too. - Again I do appreciate the help. Mr "Thepumpguy" you were spot on. It stung really bad!
Sorry u didn’t send it here.. Did u get the updated part that takes the place of the plastic flex ring.?? Or didn’t they mention it.?? Sorry for the bad taste in your mouth.. I tried to warn you..
Nothing said about a plastic flex ring. Where does it go? Please update me on this. I felt from the start it would likely be the injector pump. What I didn't expect was the cost. I helped a friend a could years ago change one on a Ford backhoe and seems it was maybe a few dollars North of $500. This one cost me about $825. Got more than a "sting", got bent over! I guess the old saying Got to pay the fildder if you dance to the music! Thanks for commenting with suggestions to troubleshoot my opportunity.
Good grief ! Almost three years since your misery started. It has to be a record here. Thanks for coming back and posting the outcome.
Just to pour salt in your wound, I would have saved u over 100.00 had u sent it to me.. U should probably call the place that did your pump and ask them if they installed the updates part that takes the place of the plastic flex ring.. if they didn’t, u can expect to be doing this again in a few years.. In the meantime, keep those filters changed..(2x a year) and use a fuel additive at every fill up.. Happy Digging..
My 410C did that. In my case there is a check ball in the return to tank line near the injector pump. As it was explained to me, plug that check valve, it can't get fuel out of the pump. If it can't get fuel out, it can't get fuel in. In mine, a fresh fuel filter would make it run fine for a minute or two. Stanadyne injector pump was disintegrating the flex ring, blocking the valve. I had the pump rebuilt, cured the problem.
Didn't realize it had been that long, but it has.
Ouch, it's all good. would you know where any used manuals could be bought for this machine? Best I can figure is if buying new, there is maybe six of them. And very pricey!
It did the updates you mentioned.