hello everyone, i am new to the site, i have a 85 john deere 310b, when i try and use the breaks the peddle goes right to the floor. seems like im looseing pressure? i toped up the break fluid but still nothing.
Are you loosing fluid to require refill?
the fluid was down a little bit, it only took a spounfull, but ive pumped it quit a bit, then checked the fluid and im not looseing any. i checked everywhere for leaks and cant find any.
Can't say for sure, but sounds like problem with the master cylinders if it's not losing fluid.
ok thanks....are the breaks in the rear end or the transmission? this is my first hoe so its a learning curve
Service brakes are in left and right rear axles.
ok thanks....so where the filler cap is for my breaks am i correct in saying that this is the master cylinder? and is it possible that i could have a enturnal leak that is not spilling on the ground or the backhoe?
Item 21 is the brake master cylinder. It has two chambers, for left and right brakes. Item 18 is the filler cap, one for each chamber. But I can't recall whether they used brake fluid or hyd oil. I think I'd call Deere dealer and ask them to be sure.
i cant be sure, but i think mine only has one filler cap? i know it has a break for each side.....im not 100% but i think it takes hyd oil....or thats what i put in it, i done this because thats what was already in it. if there are 2 chambers i know i have only filled one.
And you would be correct, I looked at the parts breakdown again and it shows only one filler cap, prolly common chamber for two master cylinders.
Good, i thought i may have missed something.....im going to have to go through her again tomorrow. if i cant find any leaks, where is a good place to start? can the master cylinder be rebuilt or will i have to search up another one? if thats not the issue is there anything elese i can look for?
Well, hard for me to say what your problem is. I can only tell you it's a rather simple system, I don't think it's a power assist system, just simple master cylinders pumping oil to service brakes. Don't hold me to that though as my memory on those units are vague. And I'm not sure how the separate master cylinders interact with each other internally, I only know they can act independent to apply only one brake, left or right. There should be a bleeder screw at top of axle housing on each side to bleed air from brake pistons at axles. If you bleed service brakes, get only fluid and no air, and don't have fluid loss from leakage or failed service brake piston seals, I would wager you have a problem with master cylinder. Not sure what it would take to repair/rebuild master cyl, but likely could only get parts from Deere and not aftermarket. I've never rebuilt one of those master cylinders so I don't know what would be involved.
im going to bleed the breaks if the weather holds up seems i have to do it outside. if that works i would still be puzzled on how the air got in there to begin with? but its worth a shot seems it wont cost me anything to do. thanks for all the quick replys!
went out today, to have a quick look. i know my hoe dont have front breaks. but would there be a line coming from the master cylinder to the hyd pump or around that area? because i have a leak there.
There is a line that goes from the low pressure return side of the hydraulic system to the master cylinder. Bleed the brakes as follows; 1. raise the front wheels off of the ground with the loader 2. steer to axle stops (over relief) and hold for 30 seconds to fill brake reservoir 3. While holding steering at stops pump brake pedal up and down slowly 12 times 4. Release brake pedal completely and wait a minimum of 10 seconds 5. Repeat steps 2-4 until a firm pedal is obtained within 4.5" of travel If firm pedal cannot be obtained then you need to adjust the brake stops.
ok, so what do you mean by steer to axle stops? turn the wheels until there to there limt? and do i unscrew the bleeders on the rear both at once? or do one at a time?
Turn the wheel until you cant turn it anymore. You will here the hydraulic relief valve open (whistling fluid flowing sound). The book says nothing about bleeders. I was just under my 210c, I adjusted the brake stops and don't think I saw a bleeder. There are three screws and nuts around the axle flange, those are the brake stop screws, NOT bleeders. DO NOT unscrew them all the way. If I figure out how to post pictures on this forum I will just give you a pic of the manual.
Wild Bill, I'm not sure if your information is correct for the 310B, but it may. It is though 100% correct for the 310D as it has a filler line that keeps the reservoir full. I don't see any in the online JD parts manuel of the 310B. This function of turning the steering to stop is to speed up the flow of oil into the reservoir. Slade, on the 310D (don't know about the B) you do not open any bleeder screws to bleed the brakes. As far as adjusting the brake disk, get under the rear axle housings and find where the brake line is connected to the housing. On that same flange face you will find 3 allen set screws with lock nuts threaded to the screws. I believe one screw is located at 12 o'clock and one at 8 o'clock and the other at 4 o'clock. Hold the allen screw with the allen wrench while you loosen the lock nut. Turn the set screw in until you fell it bottom out. Unscrew it 1/3 of a turn, hold it and tighten the nut. Do that to all 3 screws and on both brakes. If your pedal is still not firm then you could have a damaged check valve in the master cylinder. Also I must tell you that there are no piston seals inside the master cylinder. If oil is not leaking out, all your seals are good. The brake pressure is created by the space the brake plunger is occupying inside the reservoir and not buy a plunger seal like in a car master cylinder. You are telling us there is only one filler plug. I think you should have one removable plug above each brake plunger as that is how you remove the check valves. Try this and let us know if you see any progress. If still no success I try to explain about the check valves.
Willie59 I have a '83 310B with brake problems,would you have a blow up of the internal view of the brake system on a 310B. I am losing fluid but when I add fluid I can pump up the brakes and they are good for a few days. I am wondering if I may have a leak inside the axle housing.
There's a piston with a pair of O-ring seals in the main housing where the axle housings bolt to it, if they're leaking the fluid ends up in the transmission case. Later models usually had a small line from the tank or pump housing to the brake valve to make up fluid loss. http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com.deere.u90490.partscatalog.view.servlets.HomePageServlet_Alt
Slade, can you pump the brakes several times and build up pressure. If so, when pressure is built up and you have a hard pedal, does the pedal stay up while you keep pressure on it. If what I described is true then it should be just your adjustment that is out of whack. If it's your adjustment, I may be able to help you with that.
I have had to add fluid manually only after adding fluid can I pump up a solid pedal and after a few days I lose the fluid and no brakes. I am thinking that I have an internal leak. I was wondering if someone had the schematics or a blow up picture so I would kind of have an idea what was in there and what to expect once I got inside. I dread having to brake into the rear housing.
Mncgrown, I have a crude photo of your brake disk and seals. Your brake system is somewhat the same as my 310D except I have extra lines going to the brake cylinder housing to keep it full. In the parts photos on the JD site, there seems to be no such filler lines. So it makes sense that you will get brakes after refilling the reservoir. Also I have two places to adjust my brakes, setscrews at the pedals and 3 set screws per side placed around the disk. i don't see any thing like that on the 310B. So it seems that if you have no oil leaking from around your pedals or from your brake lines it must be bypassing the seals around the brake disks. I hope i am wrong because that means you need to remove the axle housings to repair.
Deon, Thanks for the photo but I was looking for maybe a blow up of the brake system its self, pistons, seals, cylinder, what ever there is in there. perhaps someone has a repair manual and could send a photo or doea anyone know of a site that has this kind of information.
lantraxco, I checked the lnk you sent but couldn't find any information on the internal workings of the hydraulics. Is there something like calipers in there? There has got to be some sort of mechanism like that.
If you look at that picture, #1 is the friction disk, it's splined to the sun gear at the inboard end of the axle housing. #2 is the brake piston, I believe it fits in a bore in the main case, it presses against the friction and presses it up against the ring gear or the axle housing on the other side. #3 and #4 are the two piston seals, where no doubt you are losing some oil. It's overly simple. As has been mentioned, later models have the same sort of setup but one of the caps on the brake valve has a hose fitting and a low pressure line connects to tank or pump drain to keep the brake valve full, so Deere obviously took note that the brake seals are not perfect forever.
lantraxco, I think I can see it providing I understand your explanation. if so it is a very simple setup. That is why I couldn't find calipers or any thing of the sort, because there is not any. Thanks very much also under stand how the bleeders work. but don't see how the adjustments that were explained earlier work. Guess I will find out once I get in there. Thanks again for your input.
Yeah, the adjuster screws were new for the "C" models I think, your "B" won't have them.
One more question, if the fluid is leaking by the seals into the axle housing is that a problem in its self? Does it end up on the ground eventualy what becomes of the fluid? Are the brakes wet or will the fluid damage the linings on the disks? I guess thats more than one question.
Everything runs in the same oil, everything, including the brake disks, except that is the axle end bearings which need to be greased now and then. It's not a problem as I doubt your machine leaks less in all the cylinders, hoses, connections, etc. than the small amount of hydraulic oil you add to the brake valve. It will show up on the transmission dipstick eventually if you do gain on it.
Thanks to everyone for their input and advice. I now have an understanding (sort of) of what is going on inthere. and what I need to do in proceeding.
wncgrown, lantraxco has a good point there. Actually, my 310D could very well leak past the brake piston seals as much or more than yours. But I would not know it unless it leaks fast enough to cause my brake pedals to leak down. Any oil leaking past the brake piston will get pumped back into my brake reservoir. Your brake reservoir is not very big therefor unless you need to fill it often, then just keep filling it. I may keep working like that for 5 or 10 years.
You could most likely buy the fittings for the brake valve, like from a 310D or 410D and hook up a hose or two to the hydraulic tank or return line connection, or for that matter a small tank mounted where you could top it up from time to time. As Deon says, as long as the brake pedal is solid when you step on it, not leaking down when you're actually using it, there's no need to tear into the axles. Now if you're getting any odd noises or funny vibrations in the pedal, you may want to check it out. Also pull that strainer screen in the bottom of the tranny case out now and then to check and see if it's catching chunks of of brake friction material, which would indicate it's past time to replace the disks.
Sounds like a good idea it must have been an ongoing problem from the start for John Deere to have fitted later models with a line to keep the brake reservoir full. I wondered about that when it was first mentioned. Theres a good pedel as long as theres fluid inthe reservoir. Thanks, I will be checking that filter/strainer soon was weather permits, we've got about 10" of snow on the ground here in WNC. No funny noise when braking or vibrations in the pedel. Maybe I should have mentioned the clock shows 3740 hours I'm hoping that is relatively low for the age. I just recently got this machine and am fairly new at equipment ownership. It seems to be good shap all things considered.
wncgrown, You were very fortunate to find a 30 year old machine with 3700 hrs. Just so you know (I'm not saying your wrong), but the hour meter will go back to 0,000.0 when it hits 10 thousand hours and they will just keep going. I was in a 310c 4 years ago with 16,000 hrs and still ran smooth. A friend of mine just sold another 310c with around 14,000 hrs. The owner said it didn't even burn oil. I know the hours on that one was accurate because I know the guys that bought it new. Rust was the biggest issue with that one but the engine, reverser, hydraulic pump, brakes and all were never repaired. The only real brake down was a front final drive ran dry and fell apart. Not the machine's fault if the owner didn't keep it full.
So there is no real way to determine that hours on the machine? It very well could have 13000 hours on it, not that I am worried everything works good other than the breaks. I had to have the injection pump rebuild it wasn't giving any problems. When I bought the machine it had a bad hydraulic leak right side under the foot panel in front of the differential some sort of valve body. And there was something wrong with the shut off, I had to kill it with the clutch, some sort of relay according to the previous owner. The mechanic said he would have to send the pump off to get it repaired. The pump guy said the the pump was worn out that he couldn't see how it ran. Should have known that a 3700 hour machine wouldn't have a worn out injection pump, I'm learning. Even with the repair bill I am not hurt should be able to get my money back should I decide to sell.