Some Background : Had machine approx. 2 years, changed hydraulic filters when first purchased, machine was at about 3500 hours and I have put approx. 300 hours on it. Replaced pressure control valve o-rings about 30 hours ago. Problem : Hydraulics began to be slow recently, and jerky. Steering doesn't seem to have full power and when starting actually turns itself with weight off front axle. Forward and reverse work fine, but I did notice when climbing a pile of dirt while piling more up it would sometimes (not often) sort of stop pulling and not stall. Work/Troubleshooting so far : I had someone check pressures and operated machine and he said the main hydraulic pump was bad. Took pump off and sent to rebuild shop to find out the pump was not the problem, however, they recommended a rebuild kit be installed and said it would be at 95% when done. The pump has been into before as someone numbered the 8 or so large nuts. After sending out the pump, I removed the transmission screen and found metal shavings of all types and one washer, see pictures. All were removed with a magnet, some have a copper/bronze look. Since I didn't clean trans. screen when I got it, I don't know if the debris may have been from a previous failure/repair. My plan at this point : Final clean debris out of transmission, maybe flush with diesel or blow out with air. Put on new filters/fluid, put pump on and operate a little and change fluid and filters and clean screen and see if I get more debris and of course check operation. Repeat as necessary. Questions : Is flushing or blowing out a good idea? Am I on the right track? Or what other troubleshooting might I try? Where is the charge pump? I cannot find it by that name in my parts book or online, a picture and/link/part number would be appreciated. Are there any links, pictures or videos on how to split a machine? I guess if I split the machine, it probably a good time to inspect/change the clutch brakes? Any other things? What do the metal shavings look like they are from? The slotted washer?
Scout, I'm having a problem resizing parts diagrams, and I'm no Deere 310B expert, but I'm near certain on those machines the charge pump is inside tranny. It produces pressure to operate fwd/rev clutch packs, brakes, and oil charge for main hyd pump. If you pulled that strainer screen out of the tranny and found all this debris in there, it's possible the strainer was clogged with this debris. That would affect the operation of drive as well as main hyd operation. That debris could be from previous failure, could be accumulation of wear debris and no service by previous owner, could be something is in process of failure in tranny, it's really hard for you to tell. I can't remember if you can get the top cover off the 310B tranny housing, even if it takes some work to do it. But if you could take off that top cover you could get a better look at what's going on in there, and maybe be able to rinse the tranny good to start fresh with new oil.
Willie, thanks for the reply. I've seen the transmission cover in the manual, I'll check it out on the machine. I am puzzled that I can't find the trans. pump in the manual, it must have another name. I guess rinsing with diesel would be ok? Any idea what the items in the picture might be from? (I looked in the manual and can't find the slotted washer)
Just a shot in the dark Scout, Washer looks like something I've seen on dipsticks :beatsme BTW - your post is first class!
alrman, thanks for the reply and kind words. I will check the dipstick this evening that's a very likely place.
alrman, you are correct. There is a tab tacked onto the dipstick that looks like something broke off and the washer has a corresponding bend like it broke off. It looks like it serves to center the dipstick. Can't remember if it was ever attached. The part detail doesnt clearly show it like a picture would but I know mine doesn't have it, see picture. Great work, Thanks again alrman.:salute
willie59...I looked at the trans. and it looks like I could have good access for by removing the top plate, it's pretty large. BTW, I did find the trans. pump in the manual. Thanks.
Good to hear you've located the charge pump. Not sure if removing top cover allows access to it or how much service to it would be available. There are a number of seal rings that seal where pipes connect to charge pump, and pipe that leaves pump and go to reverser control valve on side of tranny. If you could get that top cover off and pull a drain plug in tranny, you might be able to dump some diesel or kerosene in there and rinse things a bit. For other member that would like to view the components in question, here's a couple of diagrams, Charge pump (5) and bearing housing (9) with oil passages for charge pump. Oil lines that connect to bearing housing to supply oil in and out of charge pump.
I cant find aftermarket online or a JD dealer online showing the trans. pump (RE13915) or the dipstick (AT59085). Just curious at this point, dipstick I can fix, pump I may not be so lucky. I will try the dealer tomorrow.
You may not need a charge pump. If that strainer you pulled out of tranny was clogged with all that debris, it would affect operation of charge pump and all other functions. If you can get the tranny housing somewhat cleaned out, then fill with fresh fluid, you're machine may work quite well. If you do have to replace that charge pump, I would wager you would have to split the tractor, just don't know for certain.
arlman....great catch! I was curious so I looked at my older 410 parts manual. Now I need to look at my stick and see if the round thing is still there. Scout.....does this image help ya? My 410 has the same dipstick part number as you posted.
Willie59, looks like I will be busy this weekend, with some direction at least. O&W, it sure does help, that's a clear zoomed in image. I will report back with some results (probably more questions) gentlemen. Thanks, what a great resource.
The trans. screen taken out has a plastic frame and the one I bought from a JD Ag dealer is metal on ends and all screen . It may be the decal on the box is covering up the old part number for the 310A 'R53169' now using the AR26375 and I got some 'New Old Stock'. I know they can be cleaned but I thought I would have piece of mind. Same part number AR26375, #9 below, I don't know which one is the latest version or best. It would seem that the plastic is but I'm not sure. Questions : Is the metal one ok? Would one of those magnet tubes that go inside the screen be worthwhile?
Other Questions: >How does the fluid flow through the trans. screen? >Through the screen from trans. to filter? >Is the fluid pressurized from the trans. pump?
The screen is to prevent large debris from going through trans pump and destroying it. After fluid leaves trans pump it goes to the reverser control valve on the right side of tranny. The reverser control valve regulates the amount of pressure that operates fwd/rev clutch packs and brakes. And if I'm not mistaken the oil leaves the reverser valve and feeds oil charge to main pump. If someone knows for sure hopefully they'll correct me. As for the screen, either will work fine because they're not really a filter, just a screen for heavy debris. The advantage to the plastic screen is if there is a build up of debris at screen it can make removal difficult, the plastic screen will deflect and bend/flex around the junk where the metal screen remains more rigid.
Today I removed the top cover of the transmission, removed more of the same type of metal shavings and flushed trans. with diesel in a pump up sprayer, followed by compressed air. Removed all of the plugs and collected the waste and strained it to see what I got out. I didn't see anything that looked broken or damaged. I also removed the vertical hyd. filter and installed a new one. The old filter had some of the finer shavings on the outside and a little of a silver paste. I'll cut it open tomorrow. Tried to install the transmission screen (metal) and had difficulty getting it seated. I could only get it a little more than flush with the outside and not just enough to get a thread or two but I didn't want to 'press' it in with the fitting. Questions : >Should the trans. screen seat far enough to get the fitting mostly started? >Is there a special tool to help with installation of the trans. screen? I have some old wooden pool cues that I was thinking of making something out of. >I am still trying to understand the flow; does the short hose between the horizontal filter and the trans. screen fitting have pressure or suction? I ask cause the old hose seemed a little collapsed making it look like it may have suction.
I'm not familiar enough with the 310 to know the fluid path myself. As for the screen, have you looked in the hole with a flashlight? Might be some debris at the very back where screen tube seats.
That's a good point, I may have missed some debris with the magnet. I maybe able to look at it with a mirror and light, can't clear line of sight. This would be nice http://www.lowes.com/pd_47656-70-DC...=1¤tURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=camera&facetInfo=
Scout, I'm not familiar with the system either but would like to know for my 410 which sounds similar. Does debris collect on the outside or inside of the screen? I have never seen a screen yet so I don't know if there is a hole in the end of it. If the debris is on the outside of the screen I would say that the fluid exits the screen into the horizontal filter and then goes into the center of that filter. If debris is inside the screen then the flow would be reversed I believe. The short hose on mine looks like low pressure heater hose so I would say suction or possibly low pressure from the internal charge pump.
O&W, debris are on the outside. Yes there are holes in each end. I was thinking that a suction hose would be a heavy wall hose to keep it from collapsing.
Thanks, flow has to be out of the screen to the horizontal filter. Suction can never be more than atmospheric pressure and that hose is very short to boot. I'm thinking it is low pressure outflow/suction from the internal charge pump to main pump in front of the engine.
Used a piece of cpvc pipe as a feeler and a sleeve for the telescoping magnet so it will actually reach where I need it without sticky somewhere else. Cavity is about 3" deeper than screen. There was debris inside the cavity which concerns me as they will end up inside the screen. There is a fitting and tube directly opposite the screen fitting that I am thinking about removing to clean thoroughly and I might be able to look in. Any good tricks to remove the shavings from the magnet? It's a real pain to clean especially the last little bit. I may have found something (should have searched first I know); sandwich baggies, duct tape, and electrical tape I just am concerned about loosing these inside. Others are compressed air or even wiping with a coffee filter because it's rough. I did try the compressed air but it always left a little fuzz.
Scout, After the magnet gets loaded with metal debris dab some regular ole grease on it. Everything can be wiped off pretty easy with an old rag.
I am curious how JD says to remove/install the hyd. pump. Also, how to replace the fan belt. It worked out good for me I guess, cause I had a couple of other things to take care of; like replacing the fan belt and the radiator neck/overflow repair. Removing the rad./hyd. cooler and air cleaner helped but may not be necessary, but I can't see any other way. Anyone have a service manual or experience with this?
Anyone have a service manual or experience with this?[/QUOTE] Your not saying what model you have but most important is that unless you are getting your repairs done by a pro you should purchase your own service manuel. It's really that simple.
The model is in the thread heading Yeah, you're right, No Pro = Manual, Simple = $360 new from Deere. HEF.com; Priceless
Update: There was more debris in trans. case, flushed with diesel many times and used the home made 'suck bucket' (thanks ATCO), put pump back on, filled pump first then trans. Hydraulics operate better than before but the steering still has resistance and will continue on it's own once I start turning in either direction. Also cycle times on backhoe bucket curl (only one I memorized, but I will check others) are about half of what the operator' manual says they should be. It seems like the bucket dump has more power and speed than the bucket curl. Other than bent lines; what else should I look for?
Good to hear you got some operation out of machine Scout. As for the quirks, I don't know enough about the 310B to be of much help. I hope you get some help sorting things out.
How is the speed compared to when you first got the machine? Both of my buckets seem slow and are about half the stated speed. I don't know if I have a problem or Deere likes to exeggerate. Everything else seems plenty fast. How difficult was the trans pump to remove? BTW I'm missing the round thingy on my dipstick also.
Scout I have the 310 manual at the shop. I'll check tomorrow for you on the flow. I didn't catch your thread so I'm coming into this late, Ill see what I can do.
It seems to be faster on the bucket dump and slower on the curl, actually for the backhoe and loader but I only timed the backhoe. Unfortunately I didn't check when I first got the machine to get a baseline. I will try to check and record all cycle times ASAP, which may not be until this weekend. I removed the main hyd. pump up front. It's good to know I'm not the only one missing the round thingy on my dipstick . I'm thinking about leaving it off so it doesn't happen again, besides it seems it just serves to center it up and I'm not sure it is necessary. Have you removed your trans. screen and checked for it and other debris? Thanks for taking the time to reply equip guy. Any help would be appreciated. As for the steering; I noticed there is a check valve (item #3) on the power steering valve and a fitting (item #7)that goes to the trans. case. I plan to remove both and check for blockage and function.
No I haven't checked it yet. When I buy a used piece of equipment I always like to change out the fluids but never got around to it this time. I even bought Deere hygard to do the change. The engine oil and coolant were just changed by the PO before I bought the machine so I let it slip and now I'm doing a big trenching job with no extra time to do anything else.
O&W- I understand. I usually find other things that need or should have attention while I am fixing something else and it just adds to the time/expense and delays my projects. The screen is not too difficult to replace now that I had to get into it. I loosened the hydraulic filter housing (two bolts) and removed the short hose. That was the easy part now looking back, but I didn't want to tackle it before. I have been thinking about using the JD Hygard instead of the NAPA premium fluid (it meets JD J20C spec) to see if there is any difference.
I wouldn't think you would notice any difference.
I had a chance to run the machine tonight and get some cycle time comparisons, see the table below. I am not sure what they mean exactly maybe someone can help me with interpretation. In general it seems that retracting the cylinders is more positive and seems to have power compared to extending the cylinders. Extending also has a little shutter at times and doesn't seem as consistent while cycling. The loader boom down and backhoe swing are better than JD spec. but everything else is worse, especially the loader boom up. Steering is still sticking in the direction the wheel is turned and doesn't seem to have full power. Could this be air in hydraulic system? If so, what's the best way to bleed the system? Any ideas what to check next?
BTW- fast idle is supposed to be 2675-2700 rpm's, could this make the difference in performance? Here's the spec. sheet; /http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/construction/non_current_products/backhoes/310B.pdf
Pulled check valve and line to trans. and both were was fine. I didn't find any air in the steering or backhoe hoses.:Banghead Listened to the power control valve and the reverser with a wooden pool cue; power control had a whine noise and the reverser had a chatter noise. Neither seemed real bad but I don't know what they should sound like. It seems they would make some noise in their function. Checked some temperatures on the hydraulic system with an infrared thermometer and didn't find a variation of more than 10 degrees. I am running out of options to check myself. I priced flow meters, gauges and technical manuals but with my limited knowledge, cold weather looming, etc. etc., I will probably will go the Deere mechanic route. Do the cycle time I posted above point to anything? Is there anything else I could check?
Well, specs do state "Cycle Times (At fast idle)", there would likely be a difference in data since you were checking at 2100 rpm. The anomalies of various functions from the JD spec could be attributed to numerous things, such as machine/component age, component wear, circuit reliefs out of spec, etc. The thing that is most curious to me is the steering problem, not sure what's causing it or if it's having a direct affect on other machine operations. You need to get some pressure checks, whether you do it or have Deere tech do it, flow tests aren't a big concern at this point, but pressure tests are. You need to check things like reverser system pressure, charge pressure, and standby pressure.
Thanks for the reply willie. I'd love to fix this thing myself as I guess like most of us are wired to do and I now find myself thinking how simple a broken hose repair is in comparison. FWIW- the rpms have been like that since I had the machine and I figured it may have been set back to not damage anything since it is old. With performance seeming acceptable up until recently I never checked. I will check into this and make an adjustment to get it to spec. I haven't seen the Deere Technical Manual (TM-1158) but would it be fairly straight forward as to troubleshooting; where to hook up to check individual circuits maybe with some illustrations? I'd just like to know before I make the investment. Online download version is about $160 real book is about $360, probably well worth it I know. I assume I would probably need a few qauges to cover the range of 50 psi -2750 and some hoses with adapters for various size fittings right? The gauges are about $20 ea. at NorthernTool.
Your lack of rpm could simply be the throttle control isn't moving the governor control lever to its stop. Usually fairly simple to check that. I haven't worked with any Deere tech manuals so can't comment on how they are laid out. But, if you plan on owning the machine for a number of years, and are planning on doing at least some of the repairs, over and above oil change and such, might be a worthy investment. You typically just need two pressure gauges, both should be liquid filled. A 0 - 1000 psi to check low pressure circuits, and a 0 - 5000 to check high pressure circuits. There will be a few adapters needed, but typically can be obtained from any hyd hose shop.
I would be ecstatic to have the cycle times that you listed for your machine. Is the slowness causing you problems, like do you use the machine for your main income? It could just be age and nothing may really be wrong. Is the steering so bad that it causes the machine to be out of control and turns on its own? It seems to me that problem would be the thing the steering wheel is connected to has a hydraulic leak.
willie, thanks for the reply. I think I will get the downloaded version of the tech manual for starters. The cycle time problem just happened, when the steering problem showed up. I hadn't compared actual cycle times to JD's in the past but I know there has been a recent change in performance. I can control the steering but I have to keep my hand firmly on the wheel. It noticeably turns on its own with a little weight off the front end. Once a direction is initiated it wants to continue to full turn on it's own. I read somewhere that if there's an internal leak I should see a temperature difference at the leaking unit and I didn't. :Banghead
I have a totally crazy idea, one that I haven't tried on one of these machines. The whole hydraulic system (outside of transmission) is a closed center system. Meaning, when you're not operating any functions, including steering, all valves/ports are hydraulic dead ends. I'm wondering about taking pressure supply line loose that feeds steering orbit valve and plug that line with appropriate plug/cap. Start machine and see if the loader and hoe functions now work differently. You won't be able to steer. But if things work better, I'm thinking there's a fault with steering orbit valve. Can't be certain about any of this, just trying to do some creative thinking.
Just a thought, has the steering valve been played with before? Orbitals must be timed - or they change in operation from a pump to a motor.
I will try that, it looks like it's the hose shown in Post #31 above, Key/Item #1 and would be easy to plug. Thanks, I will report what I find It doesn't appear anyone has been into it and I know since I have owned the machine no one has. Thanks for the insight in case I venture into the valve.
I plugged the power steering line and the hydraulics were still slow and a little jerky. Checked hydraulic fluid level per JD manual (it was close to the top mark a few days ago when I worked on it) and found it to be slightly above the lower mark. I topped off the fluid while machine was running. Operated the levers and after a few cycles, WOW it came to life! I kept exercising the cylinders and the loader raise was just 4.6 seconds compared to 13.45 before, JD spec. is 3.4. Backhoe bucket curl was 3.6 compared to 5.36, JD spec. is 2.3. Some of the other functions improved too and none got worse. It seems as good or better than before I started having problems. I believe the slight difference could be attributed to RPM's a little lower than spec and of course age. I need to make a correction to the table above in post #35; When I removed the steering hose plug, I got some foamy oil at first followed by normal looking oil. Hooked the steering valve back up and steering was the same. It seems like I have/had an air problem. I will work on this more this weekend but I am hoping I have narrowed the steering problem down to the valve.
Interesting results Scout, but the jury may still be out on the extent of your problems. I mean, you may have more that one. It does appear you have a problem with steering orbit valve if its operation is unchanged. But, air in system? Not really possible to an extent as hydro systems typically don't do work using air. Also, oil reading slightly above lower mark shouldn't cause an issue. I'm beginning to wonder if you've either got a bad charge pump or the piping that feeds the charge pump has some bad seals that are sucking air. Not really certain about any of this, just thinking.
You know, I hear a little 'gurgling' in the trans. case when the engine is running and I have the dip stick out that I don't recall previously. I have the floor boards and seat off so I sort of was expect sounds to be different, but once I put it back together I will know for sure. Also, I used about 3-4 gallons of Traveller Brand premium hyd. fluid, says it meets JD20C(?) spec. but I noticed a different smell like 90w gear oil, compared to the NAPA premium hyd. fluid I have used before. I have read that as long as it meets spec. it should work but NAPA was closed on sunday or I would have bought theirs. I didn't notice the foaming before. Just relaying my observations and actions, not sure that it would make a difference. Yeah, it doesn't seem the oil level would be that sensitive and I don't know if the better operation was coincidence. Or could the problem (air leak??) be at the level just above the low mark? Could the trans. charge pump failure and/or leak be intermittent? BTW- I just got the Deere Technical Manual and I am trying to follow the logic/troubleshooting. Also, I spoke to someone who has gauges and will stop by Saturday to assist.
Wow! I totally missed the loader boom raise time when you first posted the chart as I was looking mainly at the bucket times. Something has drastically changed for the better.
I have noticed a pin (#10 below) that lines things up but I am not sure how to time the steering valve, could you explain how to time the steering valve? BTW- I have the valve off and it does have some metal shavings inside, so I am hoping I can clean it up. All else so far looks ok. Thanks.
The instructions below may say it all but it sounds a little delicate so I just want to know what I am up against. It sounds like I have six chances to get it right, just not sure if this means I have six chances to get it wrong too. Questions: Could someone clarify this procedure? Is there anything else to do or look for?
Just what do you wish to clarify? I see two subjects, 1) orientation of shaft, and 2) assembly procedure. If you are asking to clarify orientation of shaft, it's simply saying when you insert splined end of control shaft into star gear, the slotted end of shaft (opposite end) should be aligned with valleys of star gear, not the lobes of star gear.
I guess with the instructions it is straight forward and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Thanks Willie
The parts #3 seal gland bushing and #6 (2 pcs) bearing race are metal and seem to be in good shape and new ones are about $75 total. The instructions say 'replace all seals when assembling valve' but the dealer ordered them for me with new seals and o-rings. They will allow me to return them if I want. Can I just clean the old gland and races up real good and reuse?
$75.00 !! - if they look good - reuse. A bearing shop would probably charge about $10.00 - if that.......
That's reassuring arlman, thanks. I find it difficult at times deciding whether to go with OEM or aftermarket. Some things are competitive but others are pricey. I got an education on o-rings recently. There are 'boss' o-rings and regular and o-rings have different 'durometer' ratings depending on the application. I spent time chasing down most of them (for my main hyd. pump external fittings) but had to go OEM for two that I couldn't find aftermarket. In hindsight I should have just got OEM but I would have paid more. I occasionally have the advice of a 'wrench' like you guys on HEF and others. Like the aftermarket coolant temp. gauge, $18 vs $160 - OUCH. For me OEM gives me piece of mind, especially for things that are not easily redone. I recently told someone when talking about the problems/progress with my backhoe; it's not always about the destination sometimes it's the journey, as long as the wind stays in my sails I will be ok. Thanks guys
Yep, we've all been down the road of daily education Scout, always be curious and never be too old or afraid to learn something. The Boss o-rings are not only a stiffer durometer, the also are a different cross section size than standard industrial size o-rings. Your machine has numerous SAE fittings that use o-ring boss seals. If you're going to use the machine for a number of years, it would serve you well to purchase an o-ring boss seal kit.
:update Couldn't get gauges to check pressures, but the hydraulics seem to be back to normal. Cleaned and re-sealed the power steering valve and it's working good. No steering issues. I ran it for maybe a couple hours and blew a hose as some of you have or may have seen my post on that. Thanks for the help.:thumbsup