I Just purchased a 1996 John Deere Backhoe Loader, used it once and now the machine will not go in forward or reverse. We checked the fuses and noticed a 30amp fuse was positioned where a 10am fuse should go and replaced it. Also, we just replaced all the relays. The backhoe starts up just fine and every is in working order, it will simply not go in forward or reverse. It is also not rolling forward or backword; could the parking brake be stuck?
Check the oil level in the transmission and torque converter, it's always a good place to start trouble shooting.
Does the park brake indicator light go out when you release the park brake? Does the engine labor any when you put it into gear? Does the backup alarm sound when you put it in reverse?
Silly question but are you sure it’s even in gear? My NH555e has a 4 gear shifter along with the forward reverse toggle. Obviously if it’s not in gear it’s not going anywhere!
Did you replace relays before or after the drive problem?
I replaced the relays/jumpers after having the forward and reverse problem. After reading the operations manual it told me to check voltage at the Red P24 and the Blue T12 at the FNR lever harness connection. Doing that, Red P24 has 12v, but Blue T12 does not. Manual says to "check harness" Using a multi-meter I'm checking the fuse box for voltage at both the blade fuses and relays, to see if i can double check this Blue T12 wire. The problem is, I don't know which connections at the fuse box should always be getting 12V. All of the blade jumpers except the 10amp start jumper has 11V to 12V but I don't know how to test the relays properly. The first thing that sticks out is on the Neutral relay, which does not seem to have any voltage greater that 0.1 (with key set to "ON"). Pic attached.
Yes, I tried all 4 gears. I'm teaching myself as I go here.
Park brake indicator light goes out when i switch it off. Engine does not labor if i switch it into forward or reverse. It also does not labor if i change gears with the 4 speed shifter. The backup alarm sound does go on when i put it in reverse.
I won’t be of any help but I just wanted to be here.
Be very careful probing the connectors in the fuse/relay box and any others. You do not want to expand them.
If you were to look at the terminals on the relay. You will see them labeled 30, 87, 87a, 86, and 85. 30 is fused power. 87 is the load ( park brake solenoid, lights, etc. ) 86 is from the switch. 85 is ground. You should always see voltage at 30 and only see voltage at 86 when a switch is activated to the on position. There are scenarios where this isn't the case, but most things powered by a relay are wired in this fashion. I don't think that the 87a terminal will apply here so I won't get into that. I just read your post again. I don't think that the safety relay is a problem because you can start the engine. And if the park brake indicator light goes out then I can assume that the solenoid is operational and oil is being moved to the park brake. Start the engine and release the park brake. Use the hoe to try to get the machine to roll. If it rolls then the park brake is releasing. Then you are left with either a faulty FNR selector, wiring problem, or a failed transmission. I don't have access to any schematic or other service information. So I can't help you much more than I have. Good luck and I hope that it's a simple wiring problem.
Quick update: I checked the voltage at the fuse box for the relays. Neutral relay at the 30 connection shows no voltage Park light relay at the 30 connection shows no voltage The other relays "park break" and "backup alarm" have 12Volts
I would start by testing the fuses in the fuse box with a test light and make sure none have failed. Each fuse has both conductors exposed at the top. You should have power on both sides of the fuse. I have seen fuses fail and to the eye they looked okay.
Without getting into to the weeds to bad. Check to see if your declutch buttons are not stuck. It's wired a little different than I thought, but from what you described everything seems to be in working order. You have a button on the loader control handle and a button on the gear selector.
Could the declutch solenoid have failed?
IMO with the backup alarm coming on it doesn’t sound like they are stuck. At least on my 555e I have no backup sound unless I stop pressing the button.
Welcome to HEF Katherine !
I've said this a hundred times. The best test for an old fuse is a new one.
Just make sure the new one isn’t blown…. Done that before hahahahahahahaha
I'm glad to see someone mention the declutch button. Katherine said it doesn't labor going into gear but does it rev up with the throttle? I continually forget that I have a sticky button, so upon dumping I go to move and I've got nothing, oh yeah, the button is sticking again.
Reminds me of the time I found the fuse holder itself to have failed due to corrosion.
I have seen both the large and small blade type fuses where the fuse link broke from the blade and was not conducting but looked okay. This is a common problem with Freightliner M2's with the fuse box mounted on the driver's fender. Causes some bizarre electrical problems. I recently found a fuse in the after-treatment fuse box on an International that failed the test light test but to the eye was fine. The fuse link had corroded away.
Any luck? Joe H
MG2361 suggested to follow the wiring down to the solenoids. So after some figuring out where they are, I found some frayed disconnected wires. Both the clutch disconnect solenoid and the reverse from what i can tell. The place of these solenoids are in a really tight spot, any suggestions on getting these out? Or do i even need to get the solenoids out? can i somehow jam those wires back into the solenoids with some type of paste. Unfortunately they frayed right at the connection, nothing is sticking out of the solenoid wire area.
I doubt they are repairable. The nut on the top comes off and they should pull off the stem. It might take some force if the dirt and rust has built up.
Those clean red wires and yellow connector make me wonder if someone has rewired the solenoid and left the frayed wires loose. Does the nut magnetize when the solenoid is energized ? Might tell one something about its operation.
where do i buy these?
i had cleaned those wires, i was looking at that one first and I used some contact cleaner.
Slow down... Make sure you're not throwing parts at it. But to answer your question ... Deere Construction dealer is the easiest and most expensive source of parts. Although any Deere dealer (lawn or agriculture) can order any Deere part. The construction dealer would have more backhoe parts in stock and more expertise in backhoe service than the lawn guys.
That solenoid in the second picture in post 24 does not appear to have any wires on it. Is that correct?
I used to keep a variety of different size solenoids in my service truck for cranes and digger derricks and bucket trucks. I got mine from a hydraulic shop. They were quite inexpensive. compared to the factory ones.
Yea, you can see the solenoid in the first picture too. That one wire was already disconnected and then i reached down to feel for the other and it came right off, like it was hanging on by 1 strand of copper. I have to get a few tools to be able to reach those bolts, they are in such a hard place to get to either from the top of the unit or the bottom.
The coil in the solenoid is wound with one very fine copper wire both ends are connected to the red wires and molded in the plastic. From swinging and bouncing around over the years the red wire came loose in the plastic and finally failed. Hopefully you can zip tie them somewhere near the solenoid once you replace it.
I managed to get the top bolt off. Does the top half come off? I'm a little confused. It looks like there is another HEX area at the base to take the entire thing out. Do i do that or does the top half some how pop off? If so, any suggestions on getting it off? Its in a really tight spot and getting the rest of it out is going to be an ordeal.
Normally you remove the nut and you can slide the solenoid coil off the stem. There is years of dirt and rust probably built up in between the coil and the stem. it might take some force. The stem will probably thread out and there will be a plunger in it and maybe a spring. You don't want to get dirt inside or loose any parts.
Whatever you do, DONT bend the stem.
Try some penetrating oil where you took the nut off. Can anybody confirm there's a coil & stem on this Deere 410D ? And the coil slides off ?
This is what my manual shows. Is this a common solenoid that will come apart as you described? I'm not sure if i should be unscrewing this top half or trying to gently pry it off.
You removed the top bolt or nut?
NUT, I mis-spoke, its just a nut. I believe the solenoid with the red wires in the picture above is the same design.
Can you reach in there and try and twist the coil and see if it will move?
I got the coil to twist independently from the shaft. Is it safe to twist it 360? its stubborn and i feel like that might help get it off. there is so little room to work. sorry for the silly question, just trying not to break anything.
What often happens when the electro-magnet fails is it swells up. Try using penetrating oil and work it with pliers to get it off. I ran into this on the 4WD solenoid on my NH. I was able to get it off and found a match for the magnet. New Holland wanted to sell the whole solenoid for 5 hundred bucks. I fixed it for 20.
It won't hurt to twist it 360 degrees. like the previous post says, some penetrating oil may help.
Brokentractor.com had some inexpensive generic ones for my 310d
Ha ha my mechanic/sensei got the stuck clutch cutout plunger out of the reverser housing by breaking it free with a hammer and chisel. Eventually I had to replace it but once we got it out, cleaned up and checked the electromagnetic action it worked for close to a year longer. It'd just get stuck open sometimes and Id have to whack it sharply on the top nut to rattle it free. Deere is annoying because the default position for the clutch cutout is open or that is without electromagnet it's unengaged. My case 580L I think is the opposite, I haven't had to mess with it for real yet but I've gotten that idea so far. Soooo many deere problems and work days would have been saved if the clutch cutout were automatically engaged until opened. It's not like you need the clutch cutout, just use the fnr and it's one less thing to break on 28 year old machines. I've often thought about what if I'd engaged the clutch solenoid on the workbench, and then figured out a way to jam it in that position. I dunno fill it with washers or permatex or smash it or something. And then reinstall it that way just as a plug to bypass the clutch cutout mechanism. I could have saved money and months trying to get a rare part in another country.
Katherine did you resolve the transmission issue?
I was able to get the old solenoid coil off the stem. Parts literally came this weekend and just got off the tractor now. Unfortunately it just disintegrated as I applied more force with a channel locks and a small pry bar. I went onto ebay and ordered bunch of solenoid coils because its impossible to size these things from the pictures. I ended up buying this coil which worked: "Solenoid Valve Coil with Connector 12V 6309737 Fit Valve Stem Series 08 80 88 98" link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1951115663...rentrq:2c5705bb1820aa7224569179ffe79f38|iid:1 This was perfect because it just plugged right back into the existing harness with no extra steps. It appears to be getting in and out of gear just fine now. I pushed some dirt around already with the front end loader, seems to have lots of power. officially have spent more time reading about, and fixing the machine than using it haha.
Well done!! Terry
Thank you for your help, everyone is very responsive on here.
Great job! Thanks for the update!
Me too ... Thanks for the update... Many times someone comes to the forum for help, then ghosts the forum so we don't know if the advice was a help or a hinderance. Worst, someone does a search and finds the thread, but has it no resolution.
After working with the machine a bit. The solenoid coil for the clutch disconnect seemed to work but it appears it will no longer go into neutral. It appears to want to stay in forward when the FNR lever is either in Forward or neutral. If i put it in reverse, it will go in reverse. Would this be an issue with the actual solenoid valve? (not just the solenoid coil) Is this a known bad FNR lever issue? Also, after parking it for a bit and fixing a fuel line issue, the machine seems to be stuck in park. Red light for the parking break is stuck on buzzing at me. I guess it thinks I am in forward. It also does not appear to want to release the parking break. This might be a safety feature to keep it from releasing.
It's a feature to drive you nuts. Joe H
The clutch solenoid plunger valve on my 310d got sticky and eventually had to be replaced. Not the solenoid, the actual valve. It'd get stuck in the open position. Yours could be a similar situation, only with the fnr valve. I've never seen an old deere backhoe with the parking brake still installed. It wasn't in mine when I got it. Since it's electric and gets haunted and full of gremlins everyone just rips them out, appears to be the fashion around here. Put your feet down when you need a parking brake.
Katherine did you resolve this problem?
No, not yet. I'm reading up on solenoid coils and if the ones i bought make sense for the solenoid valve stems that are in the reverser. My system has 3 solenoids in the reverser: forward, neutral, and reverse. I still believe it is all electrical/solenoid coil/valve related since i had the machine running and moving around, just neutral was not engaging.
Can you post the serial number of your machine and hopefully someone can supply us with a wiring diagram.
T0410DG822155
I suspect the FNR control is the problem. Do you have a test light or a multimeter? Is the connector from the FNR accessible? The FNR switch from the diagram looks like wire T12 should have power only in neutral, T11 is the forward solenoid power wire. Does T11 have power when the FNR is in neutral?
Sounds like a problem with the FNR switch. Try unplugging it.
Thank you for these suggestions. I'm going to tinker this weekend on it and post what i find out.
So, when I bought the machine and had my first issue I had found a 30amp fuse in the FNR/Brake fuse slot which should only be 10amp. It looked a little burned up but the fuse was still working. (i replaced this with a new 10amp fuse) Eventually this led me to tracing some wires and found the solenoid coil wires a little burned and loose from the coil. So i put a new coil on. Tinkering with this now, I see that this FNR/brake fuse is consistently blowing in test mode with the ignition key. It appears to blow when i am operating the FNR lever. The parking break switch does not appear to cause fuse failure. I'm curious where to test from here. Is this fuse blowing because of too much juice from the battery? or can fuses blow from another reason.
Its not too much juice from the battery. There is too much load on the fuse. The fuse fails when you operate the FNR lever, does it fail when you put in forward or reverse? The fuse can fail because of a failed solenoid or a wire that has worn through the insulation and is grounding somewhere or even a failed backup alarm.
Looks like the FNR switch is switching power. Power comes in from F9 to the switch. In Neutral it directs power to the neutral start switch. Forward to the forward solenoid and reverse to the reverse solenoid. The problem could be in the switch or any of the connected components or wiring Does it blow the fuse with any movement of the FNR switch or in one particular position? It obviously has too little resistance or a ground feeding back to the fuse. Unplug one component at a time and see if it isolates the problem. Earlier you said it was not going into neutral. Only forward in F or N and reverse in R. This to me sounds like a switch problem. I assume it has a plug? Unplug the switch and check each contact to ground with an ohm meter. NOT the contacts in the plug, the contacts for the switch. Feeding power to an ohm meter will damage the meter. Looking at the schematic none of the switch contacts should have continuity to ground with the switch unplugged.
So further testing with the fuse revealed that the fuse is blowing when I put the FNR switch into Forward. Reverse does not blow the fuse nor putting it back into neutral. Reverse even sounds the backup alarm when tested. I had ordered a second solenoid coil and had replaced this forward solenoid coil as well, so it has a new coil on the forward solenoid. So there must be a wiring issue. As you said NH575E and Finca it might be grounding someplace? I have a multimeter and was able to test that the forward wiring was getting 11.5-12v at the plug in for the solenoid. I guess it held up long enough to test. I'll try and check amperage maybe at the solenoid.
I will try the Ohm testing as well. thankyou
Unplug the forward coil and see if the fuse still blows. If it does the problem is in the wiring. If it doesn't the coil has too little resistance. Are the forward and reverse coils the same? If so you can swap them and see if the problem moves with the coil. If the coils are in close enough proximity you can just swap the connections to test.
I repaired some frayed wiring and switched the forward solenoid coil with a different one. The copper still seemed intact so i wrapped it well in electrical tape. This appears to have stopped the fuse blowing. Ohm test on the FNR plug had no issues. Now, the machine moves again forward but the FNR lever in neutral still keeps it in forward. As one member said, the solenoid valve might just be getting stuck in open position. The clutch disconnect switch on the gear shift and loader arm work to put in neutral if i hold them down. Also, now it wont go in reverse when before it went into reverse just fine. Haha kinda comical.
Did you repair both of the wires ?? Does this one exit the wire loom there or is it broken off ?
I cut open that harness a little bit, so i could access those wires more. I was very delicate to open that harness. I repaired the two copper exposed areas the best i could with electrical tape, the copper itself did not appear to be bad/broken. i peeled away some of the old green wire insulation to check.
What type connectors are in the FNR plug? I would find a way to isolate those for testing and make sure the power in connection only connects with one of the three output connections in the related switch position. You could do this with an ohm meter unplugged or a volt meter or test light probing the back of the harness with it plugged in.
If you unplug the FNR does it still try to move forward?
Ok, so i tried the FNR unplugging and this had no effect. I put the machine in forward and then back into neutral, then unplugged the FNR lever from the machine. It remained in forward while in neutral. My next test was what Finca sdr suggested and to "tap" the top of the solenoid valve for the forward. I restarted the machine and it was back in neutral (i think). I revved the gas just to be sure that it wouldn't move. I then put the machine in Reverse before attempting forward and...what do you know, it goes in reverse. So i put the machine in forward and it moves forward, BUT will not return to neutral or reverse. My current thought is that it is a faulty forward solenoid valve stem (stuck open). I went out and bought a special socket to remove them stem but it is not budging, and i really don't want to strip this. I've already soaked it in PB blaster. I've attached some pictures of the stem in question. It takes a deep socket 1 1/8". I might hire out for this. I bought a amazon replacement stem but does not appear to match up, might have to get a real john deere stem if this can't be repaired.
Clean the area where the stem threads in very well! Brake Clean and a small wire brush. A deep 1 1/8" socket should work. There will be a torque spec for the new stem, don't over tighten it. If your looking for a job as a mechanic I'm pretty sure I know someone who would hire you.
A thin nut base like that can be a challenge. You might try grinding the bevel off the socket opening to get a better bite. If that doesn't work it may be air chisel time. You will probably destroy it with and air chisel but it would most likely break it loose.
only thing i really have with power is a battery operated impact wrench. how bad of an idea is that to loosen a big bolt? haha
Might be more than enough as long as you keep the socket from slipping. The slight bevel in the socket opening makes that extremely difficult with a shallow base like is on the solenoid. If you can grind the bevel off the socket and keep it square it might get enough grip to vibrate it loose with your impact. A chisel and hammer is the next choice and last resort. Place the chisel edge against the corner of the flat and try to tap it counter clockwise with the hammer.
That nut has already been pounded on. A battery powered impact would be a good choice if you can adjust the impact power. Be sure to use a 6 point socket. A 12 point will round off the flats in a heart beat.
I second a six point socket and grinding the end of the socket a touch to get rid of bevel. Make sure the socket bottom is flat after grinding.
I ordered a 6 point socket as suggested and it worked great . Before hand i cleaned up the area the best i could with a wire brush and some cleaner and it made a nice fit on the bolt with no grinding needed. I had ordered a Hydraforce solenoid valve before hand by just taking a guess from pictures. It does not seem to match up with the one i pulled out. I might get lucky with another ebay purchase. As you can tell from the pictures, the one on the left is the one i pulled out and it appears the stem is bent. I'm assuming that is the problem. The one on the right is the one i bought blind.
There are times when OEM parts are the only ones to use.
That looks close enough it might work. Did you try to screw it in? Did the original coil have any identification on it? My 4WD coil had a brand and part number on it that wasn't NH and allowed me to find a match with the same brand and different number by measurements.
AT148524 Also has a 9620 on the other side. I've already scoured the internet for a substitute, and John Deere wants $331.00. I bent the stem back a bit, best i could to make it straight. I gave the solenoid some juice and the plunger is definitely making noise going both up and down. Problem i see is the mechanism inside the holes does not seem to be moving. This might just be the mechanism of this particular solenoid, who knows. I'll test it tomorrow, see what happens.
Little update. Bending the stem on the solenoid valve worked. Saved me the $331. back up a running.
Good work, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Joe H
That is great! Happy tractoring!!