S/n-TO410gx895952 Hr-9145 Trans rebuild happened hr-9054 Transmission was rebuilt last year by Drew’s transmission. A year later less than 100hrs on the rebuilt trans forward gears are weak and doesn’t really move 1-3 gear untill you put it in 4th gear. Reverse works as it should 1-3 gears. System pressure for the the trans is 240psi in range for the book. I did all the test in the book. Foward line pressure is 100psi book calls for 240ish. Same with reverse is 100psi. So it’s low. Books says there is a leak in the speed clutch pack. Does that mean internal or the valve body gasket that has 1-3 shift solenoids in it has a cross leak? Any help would be great thanks
Welcome to HEF 15kamibra . Did you note the pressure when in 4th Forward ? .
I didn’t check 4th gear pressure
Why was it rebuilt? For the same issue? Was it working fine up until now, or was it an issue since the rebuild? I wonder if a clutch seal ring or 2 snapped when the two halves were put back together. They are real easy to break. Me, I would want to know what the engine rpm is when performing a converter stall test. Then the pressures at ports PF, PR and PM in all gears, forward and reverse, and the pressure in P4 when in 4th. And paying particular attention to PM when it is neutral, what it drops to when a shift is made, and what it recovers to after the shift.
Is your 410G an open ROPS or CAB machine? Does it seem to go into gear than go right to neutral?
The 410g is closed cab. It goes right into gear then feels like it’s slipping and slowly slows down. It was rebuild for this same issue. Got it rebuild it worked great no problems. Untill now the same problem came back. Fluid isn’t burnt or dirty per se. I’ll try converter stall test tomorrow and get more pressure reading on what you recommend. The trans rebuilder said they replaced all the hard parts if they “looked” back to them. So who knows what they changed they can’t tell me. They also don’t do anything electric so i don’t know if they even pulled the valve body’s out and looked at them. Just a **** show cost 12k for a rebuild and it seems like it **** the bed again.
At Lowes now will get back to you later with some checks you can perform you will need a # 2 Philips screwdriver.
Ok great. I appreciate it
From the symptom's you are describing you most likely have a faulty shift timer relay box. You will need a # 2 Phillips screwdriver and a good flashlight. Remove the four outer screws on the side panel instrument cluster, not the inner ones that retain the monitor, tilt the cluster out and look down toward front of opening near the fender well. There should be a black box attached to fender well with plastic clip, clip is most likely broken, and relay timer is laying upside down in there. It measures about 3 inches by 2 inches and about 1 1/2 inch thick. Over time the contacts wear and corrode, and moisture also enter housing. Pick the box up put your foot on brake and shift into gear when it tries to take gear and goes to neutral tap on the box with plastic end of screwdriver and see if it tries to take again try all gears it may or may not take gear. When these boxes start going bad, they can be very intermittent Also look at wiring connector for corrosion. I have been on many service calls where i run machine most of day and it would not quit moving than customer calls later say doing same thing. There is a new part number for this timer relay AT464505. Also, a DTAC solution 106354 I thank there is some wiring changes but i do have access to the solution. Maybe MG or Diesel Dave can provide this info. Hope this helps.
Will the shift time rely box cause low pressure in forward and reveres? Reverse is low but always works not like going forward. What is the purpose of the shift time rely box?
It directs power thru relays to correct shift solenoids for gear chosen. If there is a bad relay contact or contacts the solenoid will get a surge current and let enough pressure to apply clutch pack than because of bad connection current loss is great enough that the coil cannot maintain a fully open valve decreasing pressure. Best way that i know how to describe it. There are several relays in that little box, sometimes unplugging the connector cleaning and reseating helps especially if it is corroded.
Ok I’ll try that tomorrow and report back. I’m not sure if these trans are know to fail
The ZF transmissions in the E and G series backhoes were very durable. With 9000 hours it may have needed a rebuild, if it was a good rebuild you should not have the same problem return. I have seen many of these transmissions rebuilt because of the shift timer relay box being the culprit. Simple checks solve major problems in most cases.
Just reading this thread makes me appreciate the great mechanics that time out to help everyone on this forum like Steve Austin in this particular thread and all the other great mechanics and members that help us out,thank you!
I’ll check the shift timer box tomorrow morning. Thanks everyone
I wish i could remember all the crap i have seen on this equipment at one time, with that many hours it is a rarity that that little box is still in its upright position. unfortunately, dust and moisture can enter it because it is not airtight. I have actually seen water drip out of the timer when turned upright. Most of time on open ROPS cabs. There is no grantee this is your problem but it sure would be a simple fix if it is. Good luck. I did have one ZF in a Wheel Loader that a clogged transmission filter dropped the pressure. If all this fails over fill the transmission and see if pressure raises.
I'm not saying this is not your issue, but for clarity, the timer relay only affects the speed packs, not the forward, reverse or high speed packs. Still worth a look, however. @15kamibra , what port were you in when you had 100 psi?
The ports I was in when I got 100psi was the low range forward clutch pressure test port and reverse clutch pressure test port.
So when it’s cold I have 230 psi in forward. Did the converter stall test. Tires off the ground foward in thrid gear floors it goes to 2400rpm
Also 4th gear line pressure is low too. I did the converter test in reverse in 3th gear and it rpm was only 1980 in spec with the book. I think it smoked the forward clutches. Just don’t know why
I would suggest removing the transmission filter cut it open and inspect for foreign material. Do you know if it had the original ZF filter installed or is it an aftermarket filter. Reason i ask is that some aftermarket filters came apart internally and traveled to the main pressure regulating valve either jammed the valve and built too much pressure and blew the filter apart or made valve stick open or partially open and lower main pressure. Just another problem i have encountered over the years.
I’m cutting it open tomorrow. It has a factory John Deere trans filter on it
How long does it run before pressure starts dropping, do you have a temp gun to check temp as pressure drops?
Less then 5 mins. Never check the temp with the gun
I have to wonder what trans fluid looks like when it starts slipping. If clutch material has collected at pickup tube screen, pump can starve and that can cause aeration of the trans oil and foam can climb dipstick.
If the pump was starving wouldn’t I lose main pressure?
That's right I would think. So just forward pressure drops to 100 psi? Main pressure stays at 240.
Can the suction tube be examined thru the drain plug hole with a bore scope? I thank i remember someone doing this on the shuttle shift transmission.
No, that won't work. On a 310E the pump can be removed and a bore scope used going down the tube so would think this tractor the same. With that said, if system pressure is 240 psi when the trouble happens, I don't think he has a pickup tube problem.
Correct system pressure never drops only forward and reverse once warmed up. I believe the forward clucthpacks are gone
It's possible this is your problem. So when the clutch packs are built. Sizing snap rings are used to acquire the proper amount of play. So you install the correct number of steels and frictions and then measure for the correct sizing snap ring to get to where you need to be. If a clutch were built and play excessive, I suspect it wouldn't last too long. Check out this thread on a 310E. Lots of good info here. Post #38 pertains to installing that sizing snap ring. HeavyEquipmentForums
I did not measure clutch pack clearance on a 550 transmission one time never forgot the issue that created. When your 410G stops moving if you shut it off restart shift into to gear does it try to move again?
Trans has to comE back out.
Sorry that you end up having to go this route to resolve your problem. Good luck and let us know what you find.
That really stinks, good luck on getting the root cause figured out. When right, these are really good transmissions.
Like MG mentioned, those little steel sealing rings on the ends of the clutch packs would be very easy to break as you bring the 2 halves of the transmission back together. That would explain the 100 psi pressure and the early friction failure of the pack(s). An inspection of those would be telling.
Are the clutch packs snouts suppose to be flush or not. I have two that are flush and two that aren’t. Any help would be great. Thanks
Not an expert, but I don't think that little bit matters. Hopefully one of your resident experts will chime in with a more definitive answer. I don't think I even looked at that on my trans. If the other side of that case is right, you should be good to go.
I just don’t know if the sealing ring is fully seated. Don’t want a leak and burn up that clutch pack
I an hoping @mg2361 will clear it up for you.
At the moment, I can't recall. Most of the transmissions I split and reassemble, I have the duct plate already in place, so I don't see the shafts. I would think if the shaft was not fully seated you would not have been able to get the two halves together. To insure I get the two halves together without issue, I move the dowels so they are flush into one case half, then work in a quiet setting. The quiet is so I can hear if I break a seal ring. It will make a click upon assembling. If you hear that click, take it apart. With the dowels recessed into one of the case halves, I then can also feel as I assemble and also see if the two halves just go together with gravity without having to pull the halves together over the dowels. If the halves meet with only gravity, then there is no reason to worry about how far the shafts stick into the case. Maybe @Bigbert could shed some light on that answer. He is our resident ZF transmission expert. The transmission in question is a WG92-4WD.
Thank you. I put the half’s together with the dowel pins recessed like you said and the two halves touched without binding so I would say it’s together without breaking the sealing rings.