Purchased a John Deere 450 track loader. Got it home and off the trailer and started for the first time. thing has been sitting 5+ years or better and started within 2 revolutions of the crank. Supposed to have a fresh rebuilt engine by John Deere. Ok so this thing is somewhat different than the Cats I have always run. Looks to me like the left pedal is the clutch and the right pedal is the brake. the levers in the middle steer and it has a 4 speed selector lever on the left by arm rest. forward reverse is on the floor between your legs and has a high low and reverse. Does this sound right for a 450 Deere? After getting it going we put it in what we think is in gear and let clutch out and nothing. It does have a very large trans fluid leak where the cooler return line meets the trans at a coupling hose. Think its about out of fluid by now LOL. So the question is does a 450 like this need hyd pressure to engage and move? My thoughts are that is if it has a clutch shouldn't it be all direct drive and move anyhow? We did start it and it did take off in reverse for about 4 feet till clutch was stomped on. we thought it was in neutral LOL. haven't been able to make it move on its own since. Need more time to look at it and need to be armed with a better understanding of Deere transmission and drive systems such as this. Any thoughts or knowledge to share? Thanks in advance
Going from the wayback machine in memory here, not likely to be right after thirty years. There is a dry automotive style clutch that is basically for use when starting the engine cold I believe, or possibly for the PTO shaft also? The high/low/reverse unit is powershift with a pump on the input I think, when you partially depress the clutch pedal I think it dumps the oil in the reverser to declutch the drive so you can stop or change speeds in the gearbox, fully depressing the clutch pedal should disengage the dry clutch. The speed range selector is all mechanical gears. Make sure the clutch pedal and linkage are free and returning completely, and that you have the speed range unit in a gear, though I can't recall if there's a neutral in the gearbox. The 450 loader is simply a 450 dozer with a loader frame on it in place of the dozer unit.
I think you have it right Lan. The master clutch pedal is pushed 1/2 way in to stop the machine and all the way in to stop the PTO. The forward/reverser should be shifted with out the clutch if I remember correct. I bought one and heard of a few more of these machine with the main clutch slipping because the linkage was inproperly adjusted. There is a very specific procedure in the service book for adjusting the clutch linkage and when people needed clutch adjustment they looked at the linkage and adjusted what seems obvious and they still slip leaving them to believe the master clutch is shot when it is fine. If the clutch is slipping and the PTO keeps turning the linkage is normally the culprit and the clutch is fine. You do have to push the clutch all the way to the floor to shift the gear transmission. They are straight gears so the operator needs to let them stop spinning to avoid gear grinding. Over all the 450 and the 455D track loader were great machines and held up to a lot of abuse. Edit: Not sure if the older 450 loaders were a power shift on the forward reverser. Mine was a 1988 455D and it was full fluid drive on the low/hi- forward/reverser. If I remember right there was a neutral between 1st and 2nd. These linkages got worn quickly from rattling about you had to be careful to make sure you got the main tranny in gear and not between gears. EDIT 2: You have to have the power shift in neutral to start these. Can't remember about the main transmission being in neutral to start. There is a neutral safety bar on the power shift and to start them one often had to bang the shifter about a little bit with the bar engaged to get the safety switch to make contact to start when the linkage got worn.
If your hydro is low it will not go. There is a return line that runs under the machine from the transmission on the right side toward the back that returns hyd oil to the font mounted filter and pump. It is two pieces of steel line with a clamped on piece of return hose stuck over the bubbled ends in the middle of the belly pan and held togather with the heavy duty hose clamps. Do yourself a favor and replace them two steel lines and that 3 inch piece of hose with one long hydraulic hose from the tranny to the pump. Its no fun dropping your skid plate and fixed that lousy connection when you are in the swamp laying in your blown out oil and it won't move. Happened about a week after I bought it and twice more before I installed the hyd line. Never had an issue after that.
I have a 450 C dozer. The clutch is on the left floorboard. The brake on the right. It has a 4 speed transmission. The gear selector is on left side armrest outboard. The H-L-R selector is at the same place inbd of the transmission selector. Steering is done with the 2 levers coming out of the floorboard. The clutch is used to select the transmission gear. The H-L-R transmission is hyd. controlled and is adjusted with the clutch as to speed of shift etc. Hyd. pressure to the H-L-R clutches is adjusted through a bung on the floorboard. If all this makes sense.
That all pretty much sums up all of what I was wondering. The FWD-REV is most likely a hydraulically actuated clutch pack. So if I repair leak and top off tranny it should be fine. I need to add to the story that when we got it, it did not start or move. we pulled it out of the weeds and briers and pushed it up on the trailer with a 955L and a backhoe which was quite a fight as one of the tracks was stuck. Of course on the last two feet of getting it on the trailer the track broke loose. Eh just our luck LOL. At least we were able to roll it off the trailer easy. We were told it was parked where it was cause it developed a transmission oil leak. It was probably out of oil when we got it. When I got it started it dumped the last remaining oil that was in it. About a couple of gallons. Had just enough to let me find the leak though. rotted hose at trans cooler return line.
Yep that's right where the leak is!
It would probably be a good idea to change the filters. One for the cooler in front of the radiator and the other on the RH side a little fwd. of the sprocket.
That's already on the maintenance list. When I buy a new machine I go over it pretty good changing all filters and fluids.
Here are some pics of this machine.
Got a chance to run this machine a little bit today and the first problem is that it does not want to turn right. I also notice the RH steer clutch/brake lever does not set against its stop like the LH side does. The RH side is the side that was froze up on us and would not release till we got it on the trailer. It does want to try a little if you pull it back far and hard enough. I am wondering if it is out of adjustment or I have a linkage problem with something hung up in the linkage somewhere. Does anyone have any manuals for this machine?
Is the right clutch not releasing, or does the left side stop pulling?
I think the RH clutch is not releasing and or the brake is not applying. when you pull the RH lever the machine just goes straight. LH side is still pulling. It tries just a little but that may be due to the brake grabbing and the clutch not releasing. Are the steer clutches and brakes on these wet or dry? I think when the RH would not turn for us when we went to get it the brake may have been stuck. It stands to reason that the clutches may also have an issue if water got in it and it is a dry setup. Or if the lack of oil from when it was run dry and parked and abandoned caused moisture to collect in clutch and brake packs. Just thinking out loud LOL.
I'm pretty sure they were dry up until the "C" models, but don't quote me.
You are correct. When i was looking at getting a 450 JD dozer I was told don't get anything older than a "C". The older ones had dry clutches and there was problems with them sitting for any length of time and sticking.
Yeah, especially in wet areas like where I'm at, the coastal third of Oregon and Washington. Not so bad where it's dry. We always left the drain plugs out on the dry clutch machines which helped a little. The friction material would wick moisture and then when the steel separator plates rusted it was like they were welded. Still pretty good machines in there day.
It looks like I am faced with disassemble to get them unstuck. Project # 4983 waiting for funding for #1 LOL Well guess thats why we only paid $1300 for the machine. I still think we did good LOL.
I wonder if you can unstick them using the procedure we do on the old Cats. Put the bottom plugs in and fill with diesel fuel. Operate them that way with the steering clutch tied back and sometimes they come loose. Works on the Cats quite often. Anyone ever try it on a JD?
That's an EXCELLENT idea. I will have to look and see if I can try that on this machine. Anything to avoid having to disassemble would be great.
Worth a try. 50/50 whether or not all the disks separate cleanly or you wipe the drive splines off some and have to tear it down anyway. Good luck!
How would this be any harder on it than normal operation? I don't know is this a gamble worth taking? If they are badly corroded and wont separate aren't they junk anyhow?
As I said, worth a try. Just letting you know there's an even chance you'll wind up tearing it down anyway, but might as well roll the dice.
I agree. I think at this point I have nothing to lose but maybee a bunch of work time and money. Any thoughts on how long I should let it soak in diesel? I am going to denver for a couple of weeks and wonder if I should fill it and let it set till I get back.
I would. Worth a shot.
If you soak it in oil and it does break free, it will slip in a hard push, from then on. I would try to run it with the handle pulled back pushing dirt and it should break loose with a pop at some point. Before you do much with it, go over all the bolts on it especially the frame to clutch housing bolts. The plain 450 used 3/4" bolts which were marginal, later ones used 7/8" bolts which were better. The frame rails will probably need attention where they bolt to the steer clutch housings also. If you do have to work on the steer clutches a book is mandatory, there is no winging it as it has lots of parts that have to work in sync. If you need help I could try to get the info to you. I'm a fair mechanic but struggle with computers!!
What repowerguy said is very true. I have a 450C which is probably the same except for the wet clutches. Everything is synced together and a very small amount of bad measurement in any of the levers, rods clutches etc. can really throw things off. For an example. I had a problem with the speed of shift. Shifted way to fast. Adjusted everything according to the book and still the same. Saw that the clutch control rod was worn so removed it brazed up the holes for the pins that held the ends on and redrilled and repinned it. Still the same too fast shift. Ask on another forum and told what I had done. Was told the clutch control rod had a very precise measurement as to both ends. Bought a new rod from John Deere and everything then worked as advertised. The small amount of difference in being off when I repinned it threw off the speed of shift that could not be adjusted out.
I know I need a book. If anyone has one would it be possible to have you scan in the steering clutch and brake adjustment section?
P M me your email address and I will try to email you Steering clutch and brake adjustment pages.
As stated in post 3 of this thread, adjustment is very critical. I have not had any problems with continued slipping on a Cat after the diesel fuel treatment of the steering clutches. They quickly dried up and workes fine. Loosen your clutch adjustment before you do it. If it continues to slip after/if it breaks loose at least it will be an easier job tearing it down with them broke loose. Good luck.
Does anyone know if the 350-b is real similar to the 450? I have found manuals for the 350 and am wondering if they are real similar. If anything may just be a guide to what I need to do to get the steering clutches unstuck. want to try the diesel wash job trick but need to know where fill and drain plug is. assuming it has them being a dry clutch setup.
Man I just downloaded a full service manual for this tractor at a site called YouFixThis for $35! What a score!