Hello all,new to the forum, glad I found it. Have a JD 500C TLB that is my buddies that i'm using to put a couple grinder pumps in, then i'm going to clean and fix it up and sell it for him. I was running it the other day and she was running fine, just driving it across the yard and all of a sudden it shut right down, the throttle was open, tried starting,she would kick with a shot of either but thats it. I took the fuel lift pump off, it was gummed up bad so i bought a new one, and put a new fuel filter in it.used the hand pump and filled the filter in no time. pumped all the air out,closed the bleeder and opened the bleeder on the injection pump put when i go to prime it, the lift pump handle has no pressure to it. I pulled the line off the filter that goes to to injection pump, fuel pumps out no problem. It seems to be between there and the I-pump. Could it be the solenoid on the injection pump? reason i'm thinking that is the way she shut down. if it were a fuel issue, they usually cough a little before they shut down. Big thanks in advance, Ziggy
Solenoid wouldn't be the first thing I'd check but you can check it easy enough. Turn the machine to on, and disconnect the wire from the injection pump and reconnect it, it should click each time. If no click, check for power and then ohms of the the coil. If the transfer pump was gummed up, then the injection pump could be gummed as well, but that would cause it to stick in the off position, not die when running. Solenoid could fail at any point, or could be intermittent-failing when it gets hot and working again when cold. Reading between the lines, I'm guessing you just need to get it bled out all the way. May have to crank the engine to operate the transfer pump inside the injection pump, the lift pump may not fill the injection pump on it's own.
I cranked it for a while, but still could not get fuel to squirt out of the injection pump. I didn't try cracking the line on the 1st injector, I going to try that. thanks for the reply, i will update later.
I don't see any point in trying an injector line, if there's no fuel coming out of the bleeders there's not going to be any coming out of the injector lines. If that injection pump has a timing window (1" long rectangular cover held with two screws) you could try taking that off to make sure the injection pump is turning. Probably check the inlet to the pump for a blocked screen first.
i took the line off the filter on the right side and had good pressure with the hand pump,tightened it back up,i cracked the line feeding the pump and the is only a drip coming out and no pressure with the had pump,even when i turn the engine over just a drip. is there a filter/screen between the filter and i-pump ? it has the timing window. also noticed that i didnt here a click at the solenoid. i did find the wire to the pump had insolation off it and bare wire showing.
There might be a screen in the fitting of the injection pump, but that doesn't sound like where your blockage is. If there's no pressure, just take the line off till you find the blockage and blow it out Don't worry about the solenoid till there's fuel.
i m thinking of making a temp line from the filter to injection pump and see if the problem remains
I cleaned the line out,pulled the screen going into the I-Pump and it pumps fine with the primer with the screen hooked to the line,but once i put it back in the pump, it will not prime. is there another screen inside the pump ?
I cleaned the line out,pulled the screen going into the I-Pump and it pumps fine with the primer with the screen hooked to the line,but once i put it back in the pump, it will not prime. is there another screen inside the pump ? or could there be something inside the pump.
My vague familiarity ends at the pump, sorry. Here's the posiblilities I can think of 1 outlet to the pump may have a valve in it that gets plugged when a certain important internal part disintegrates. Read thepumpguy's responses. 2 may have to have ignition on for the pump to prime. 3 may have to crank the engine for the transfer pump inside the injection pump to pass fuel.
There is a screen on the transfer pump pressure regulator but it sounds like you found it. Its the screen under the inlet. Remove the fuel inlet pipe and unscrew the regulator[3/4" wrench]. I'v NEVER seen one clogged to the point of "no start" tho.. You have to get the solenoid to click.. that's your "on-off".. If all else fails, just remove the top cover entirely. or run a "hot wire" straight from the + side of the battery to the solenoid and listen for the click. Let us know what you find and we'll go from there. JUST REMEMBER.. if the solenoid is BAD and you remove the top cover and start the engine, you cant shut it down with out MANUALY moving the metering valve to the shut off position. Just look at where and what the solenoid arm is moving, or supposed to be moving[lol] and you'll figure out where the metering valve is.
i was a little busy so didn't have time to work on it, went out tonight to check the solenoid,I didn't here it clicking at first, kept turning key on and off, and no sound.I did notice the power wire was missing isolation going to the solenoid , so i checked it for power and there was power to it, I turned the key a couple times and i herd it click. got dark on me so i didn't have time to charge up the batteries and hook up the fuel line, ill have to try it tomorrow. just wondering if that happens with the solenoid, or could it be the ignition key itself giving the problem. the day it quit, i had it at least 2000 rpms probably 2200 when it shut down,it didn't sound like a clogged filter or low fuel where they start coughing, it just shut down.
IF the wire from ON the solenoid is "chaffed" and it grounded.. it would JUST SHUT DOWN.. NO spitting or sputtering .. I think you found the problem. It will be A WHOLE LOT EASIER to crank if you "loosen" the lines AT THE INJECTORS a few turns.. inorder to get the air out while you crank the engine.. IF you suspect a "BAD" power wire at the solenoid.. you can run a wire straight from the battery with a "roach clip"... OOPPS.. I mean.. alligator clip.. and listen for the click..
i'm getting it to click, but it still will not prime, could the solenoid gum up or do you think it's just shot ?
IF IT WERE ME.. and I had a Flat blade screw driver or a 5/16" socket with in arms length or walking distance.. I would just take off the top cover and test the solenoid.. Hit it w/ 12 volts from a battery charger or a battery itself..and see if it pulls in..{clicks** its got 2 posts.. 1 + and 1- doesn't matter which way you hook them up as long as your ENGINE wire+ isn't hooked up to the solenoid.
i didnt pull the cover off but i did put power from a battery to it, it was clicking but it still wouldnt turn over, had a guy this weekend come up and look at it he said he was getting smoke from the stack when turning it over, but i never did. could it be pulling in and not making contact from dirt,etc...
Its Possible to hear the solenoid "click" and it not be fully engaged.. Just loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS and watch for full to "squirt".. Tighten the lines and watch the exhaust smoke.. IF it starts PUFFING, its getting fuel THRU the injectors.. Now wheather its getting ENOUGH FUEL to start the engine is a whole different story..
i'd bet it's not engaging fully, because ill turn the key on and off a bunch of times before it clicks, and the click isn't very loud, can barely hear it.
Pulled the the solenoid off,it seems to be working fine.its getting fuel to the pump but its not coming out of the injector lines(loosened them),could there be air in the pump itself? i removed the bolt opposite of the fuel line inlet,but when i crank the motor or lift pump prime,no fuel will come out.the return line going to the solenoid has a little 90 degree fitting with a check valve in it,it was gummed up,i cleaned it,but figured that would cause it to not get fuel to the injectors. I dont see how that lifts the metering valve when its hooked up.is there an arm that it should be lifting?thx zig
Zig.. The MV doesn't "lift", it moves back and forth.. and should do so VERY easily.. if its stuck you found your problem. You said the return fitting was gummed up.. I think your pi**ing in the wind my friend.. just check the MV for movement and if that doesnt work.. pull the pump and have it looked at. TIME IT FIRST!!! A "gummed up" return fitting is a tell tale of bigger problems.
Should be obvious what the solenoid operates, and it should operate freely and "decisively".
it was gummed up,but every thing seems to move freely.If i try and start it without the solenoid,(part number 17)should it be in the down position,and up to shut it down,or opposite? thx zig
finally got the time to work on it again after this lousy winter,took the timing window off,and disc was not turning,took it off,the shaft was broke,and pump froze up solid.My friend runs conditioned wvo in the equipment in the warmer months.His son had it up his house usung it for snow removal,must of ran wvo in it and let it sit without running regular diesel for the winter.I told him what we should do is,put a t-line in with a nipple and shut off.if the machine is going to sit for a while,just take a small ful can with diesel and conditioner in it,and run it through,so they never sit with the WVO in the injection system and lines.
That's gonna be an expensive repair$$$.. You best bet would be to buy a pump off a salvaged piece of equipment.. with a warranty that it will work.. Those pumps were superseded SEVERAL times, so if you give me your original pump #, I can tell you which pumps will work for that engine.. just so your not looking for 1 particular pump #..
I gave it to a local guy that rebuilds them,so i dont have the # of the one that i took off.in the john deere catalog,the pump # is ROOSA-MASTER NO. JDB431AL2401(AR50144) and the reman # is SE500548.I finding alot of pumps on ebay,but the shafts look different on some of them.this model is one of them,PUMP MODEL DBGFC633-1HB 40-3053401,would be great if this pump would work by just changing the shaft,it's new old stock for a good price.
If you say its a 2401 then that's good enough for me.. The DBGFC pump that you referred to wont work .. its a 6cylinder.. on goes on a Hurcules engine.
As luck would have it.. there are no superseded or obsolete pumps for that model.. you need a 2401 pump.. Let me look around and see if I can find a head and rotor at a decent price.. I know I have a drive shaft .. ANOTHER THING to be checking is the injectors.. a clogged injectors will seize a pump in a milla-second.. and by the looks of the inside of the pump, its a strong possibility it might be a problem.. Your gonna HAVE TO drain the fuel tank, flush the lines and change the fuel filters too..
I just did a quick google search for jbd-2401 and found on the first page at the very bottom.. "nippondenso pump cores" click on it[Midwest fuel injection] and they have a 2401 REBUILT for $400.00 !!! no mention of a core charge.. YOU BETTER SNATCH THAT UP.. QUICK!! Your gonna get charged a core from any place else seeing your head is seized and the drive shaft is broken..
is a pump that froze still rebuildable?the lines from the the tank to the pump are flushed,i put a new filter also.should i just pull and check the injectors,or just get new ones? I called them this morning but they were closed.I hope they have it,ill let u know how i made out.tHaNkS A bunch,greatly appreciate the help
they didn't have any pumps in stock,all they have is the rebuild service,send in pump and rebuild for 800.00 There is a used one on ebay off a 3020 jd tractor,which also has a 270 engine,it's a jdb-2401,will that work on the 500c? or is the pump set up a little different ? thx Zig
A 2401 is a 2401.. its set the same.. just fits different applications..
Oregon Fuel Injection are listing a rebuilt one in stock. http://oregonfuelinjection.com/index.php?pid=31
I found one,Wimer fuel injection 645 +300 core charge, oregon wanted 750+600 core charge THX again !
pump solenoid is there a way to operate the fuel shut off solenoid manually? i was looking at it and noticed a large slotted screw on the top of the solenoid, do you think i can push it down from there to try and see if it's just gummed up? the solenoid has power to it, but i dont here it clicking, fuel flows through the pump, and took the inspection window off and saw that the disc with timing mark is turning, and the pump only has 10 to 15 hrs on it tops. I cleaned all the fuel lines, but i didn't clean the return lines. i'm wondering if some of the old stuff got in there and just gummed it up, and the solenoid just doesn't have enough power to free itself? Thx again Zig
I finally got around to pulling the pump, while on the tractor, it was not getting fuel to the injectors, the shaft is fine, spins freely, just not pumping fuel to the injectors. it pumps fuel to the pump, and when i loosen the plug on the other side of the cap, fuel does pur out when i crank it. Is there something in the pump that could be clogged? THx Zig
The pump has a metering valve that turns the fuel on and off.. it has pumping plungers inside the pump that actually pump the fuel out.. It has a cam ring that activates the pumping plungers.. IF you didn't change/drain the fuel from the tank and change the filters from your previous pictures.. it pretty obvious that the inside of the pump is gummed up again.. Just pull the top cover again and have a look.. even tho it probably has sealing wires on it.. the place you got it from isn't going to warranty contaminated fuel anyway.. No slotted screw on the solenoid..
I'm working on this 500c again, had to put another pump in it, it sat for a while until now, i went out and tried to turn it over, to get the piston at TDC, and she won't spin, the batteries are charged, i'm getting 12.6 volts at the solenoid, but she just moves the flywheel a little bit, and then if i keep trying, she'll start clicking. just wondering if you know how bypass the solenoid on it? before i pull it and the starter, or an easy way to spin the motor manually? thx