After a number of repairs on this 1978 Old Greasy Granny, she is up and running again. Prior to the repairs I have made which were new hydraulic lines, new crankshaft pulley, new belts, hoses, etc., the brakes would go to the floor and then on the second depression they would be super stiff and stop the beast abruptly. Now, there is no first push to the floor, the break are just solid, no sponginess. As I get moving forward and press the brake petals it stops me but... there is a grind noise, like gears grinding. I haven't gotten under to check it out yet but will soon. If anyone can give advice on what I should be looking for or any similar stories, let me know. ZMountain 1978 John Deere 510 Backhoe
Just took off the floor plate to start examining everything... i have some cleaning to do first. I will let you know what i discover after some clearing of 30 years of neglect.
The brakes on that vintage are inside the rear axles, inboard, and wet. They have three pistons on each side that press the brake platest together for braking. It it's grinding hard you most likely have worn out the friction blocks. These are riveted and once you wore the heads off the rivets what is left falls off and then you have metal to metal. The soft cast backing plate on the stationary side quickly wears away and the entire machine gets full of fine grey powdered iron and everything in the transmission, rear axle, reverser, and all things hydraulic become totally nonfunctional. Voice of expensive experience. This may not be your problem, or at least not all of it, but you need to be aware of it, and the penalty for not repairing it if in fact your brake frictions are worn out. As far as I know the only way to check them is to pull the axles off the transmission housing one at a time.
Well that is both informative and scary. The grinding noise just started yesterday. So you can be assured that I will not be using the brakes until I am sure. I will continue to clean up everything and see how everything looks but the wet brake repair is probably beyond the abilities of my backyard repair. So it may be on the way to the shop. Has anyone down this type of repair? Is it as difficult as I think it is?
I would suggest you get a owners and a service manual for your machine and read thru it. Parts manuals are great to see how things are assembled and if something is missing and ground up, besides the obvious part numbers. Then you can make an informed opinion of difficulty of repair and decide if you want to tackle it or not. The manuals will pay for themselves many times over in the future if you take the time to go thru them. There may be a few heavy pieces but the axles may pull fairly easily.
I got the service and operators manual today. I have already started going through it. I am pretty sure I can tackle the job. I will post photos as I go.
If you remove your axles to get to the brakes, would you do me a favor and see if anything associated with the brakes matchs this part? I own a jd 410 around the same vintage and it has hydraulic troubles, and I found this in my pickup screen.
What size is that thing? Kind of looks like a piston, o-ring and washer that have been ground down and heat welded together.
I'm out of ideas, I thought there's a chance it's either a brake rivet or something out of my geared trans pump.
brake update - not opened up yet OK, got the floor out and the years of gunk and dirt removed so I can see what I am working with. Here is a photo of the top view from inside the cab. Some of the linkage was disconnected so i may try to reconnect it and see if that changes anything but I doubt it. Grinding has to be the worn down disks.
I think the linkage would be the parking brake, completely different system.
Yes, that linkage is parking. Now that I can get back in I will check if it was permanently engaged. So here is the transmission case. From what I can tell the brakes are on the outside circled in red. I made reference to the brake pressure line so you can see compare with the real photo from the earlier post. At this location, in order to inspect the brakes I will need to: 1. Lift the back end 2. Remove the wheels 3. Remove the axle 4. Remove the axle housing Then the brakes can be inspected... sound about right?
That's the right spot, you can see two of the three piston bores in the main case, and I think the three notches are where the outside plate with the brake lining fits in to keep it from turning. The axle shaft, housing and planetary all come off as one piece, you have to remove a bolt in the inner end of the axle shaft and the planetary carrier comes off then the axle will come out of the housing, should you so desire. After removing the housing you should find a sun gear sticking out of the outer brake plate, everything should just pull out by hand from there. If you go that far of course you will want to replace the three brake piston seals also. Have fun!
I hope it is more fun than frustrating.
Well, it wouldn't be yellow iron any other way..... by the way, you will lose all your transmission/hydraulic oil......
I am aware of that, I just added a new bucket too from repairing a hydraulic leak that was inside the boom arm.
Ok, back on it after getting attacked by a stomach flu and mustering up some strength. Today I just got the batteries back in to start it up and lift wheels off the ground and block it up. While up I set the wheels in motion and separated the petals. While the wheels were turning, I hit the right brake, the wheel stopped with no noise. Then hit the left brake, its stopped, no noise. Then, let the both run and hit both brakes, and then.. noise.. Any ideas? Either way something is afoot! Tomorrow the wheels come off and I will begin to disconnect lines a few things in the cab so I can remove the rear transaxle cover.
Only thing I can think of is that when you bring both wheels to a stop at the same time you have engine power turning things, not just the momentum of the wheel/tire. Try it with the differential lock pushed down, see what that does? If it works, lol. Old machine.
The differential lock seems to work however, with the linkage hooked up (which is wasn't when I removed the floor plates) when the brake is applied, the lock is disengaged. So, while the back end was in the air, I got the wheels spinning with some decent speed (4th gear), and pressed the brakes. The wheels stopped spinning, no real bad noise was heard. I thought, well, that is good so I will try it back on the ground with the weight of the machine being stopped when the brake is applied. Well, there the grinding noise is again. Today, I will begin the disassembly and add photographs along the way. I think it is pretty certain the the shoes are worn "slap out", probably more than just that.
Sorry there will be no photos today. All the lugs are rusted on and I am letting some penetrating oil sit on them since my breaker bar and a 6' pipe was looking more like the breaker bar was going to bend than the bolt break free. Maybe tomorrow after the soaking and some tapping and begging.
Okay, so it has been about 2 weeks but I am moving forward on this thing slowly. Without ever working on anything like this before, I do a lot of reading and reviewing before I proceed. So, wheels are off, back end is up in the air, support is under both back corners and I have support under the center of the rear transmission housing and the fluid has been drained. Prior to draining the fluid, I opened up the top cover of the rear transmission housing. Due to living in fluid, she looks pretty new on the inside. Here is a pic of the differential gear sitting in fluid before I drained it. I have disconnected everything from the right side (which included the differential lock valve and linkage) and am now preparing to separate the trans axle housing. I have it fairly high in the air and will make a platform under the axle so I can support it with a floor jack chain pulley (hung from the cage) when I separate it. I also have to disconnect the large tie rod below the axle so I can lower it. You can see the tie rod in the photo below just beneath the axle. Also, there are two square nuts inside the rear trans housing that have a bolt threaded through them from the other side of the housing. You can see in them in the first photo. Anyone have any idea on what that is? I don't see it in the parts catalog for the housing... Thanks for everyone's comments!
If you go to the parts breakdown for the differential it shows 12 bolts for the two bearing housings that come in from the outside, and #3 is quantity two, 1/2" nuts, which I would guess is what you're looking at there. Not sure why, but you will probably see the reason once you get the axle off.
I see what you are saying in the parts catalog. I will let be sure to show what it is attached to with a photo.
Axle housing is now off! That took longer than I thought but the other side will be MUCH easier now I know what I am doing. Here it is down on the jack. So, with it down the pinion gears, pinion, and gear in the axle housing looks great. So does the final drive and sun pinion and the sun disk The plate and brake shoes look good (still a little life in them) The shoes on the inside looks fine. So, here is the good news. It doesn't look like the shoes have worn off and i have metal to metal. I can't see the pistons just yet but I seriously doubt they were making the grinding noise i heard. There is no metal flakes or shavings anywhere inside the housing, it looks great. I think it has been changed before... so, any ideas? Perhaps it is on the other side???
I also spun the axle in the axle housing while it is off the machine. Smoooooth... no noise, easy to turn. My grease fitting looks like it hasn't been used however, it feels like it clean and well packed.
Wino, I think what you have in your photo is a what you thought. A rivet through the brake shoe and the brake plate. The rivets are thicker on the plate and that seems like that it could be a match.
Hard to tell really from the pictures, looks like some chatter marks on the steel brake disk. The friction pads if I recall correctly were supposed to be replaced if the grooves were gone. Again pretty dark picture but the bottom inside pad might have some heat cracks. Yeah, could be the other side is worse, or it could be it's just aged to the point where it wants to chatter when you apply brakes. Sometimes adding some friction modifier will help, but then since it's all common sump you could cause the clutches in the reverser to slip, no win. There's a minimum thickness on that plate too, have to check the manual for that. Since you're that far in there, if it was me I would at least replace the piston seals, it's pretty easy and I don't think they're terrible spendy.
I took the brake plate and disk into the local John Deere service center today to get prices on parts and an opinion on what they thought the noise was I heard. The service manager looked at the brake shoes and said that the amount of material left was not a concern and new shoe material won't be much thicker, however he felt that the material appeared to be beginning to fall apart and would tear off quickly if it was re-installed as is. He suspected the noise I heard was chatter and that the brakes shoe material, although show little wear, are going to fall apart due to them not being used and drying out. Side note: guy before me didn't know he had to prime them, so, he never used the brakes, he just cleared one 3 acre lot pushing the clutch in to stop on level ground on a relatively flat lot. and then stopped using it for 3 years. The parts department recommended I see about having the pads resurfaced by a break and clutch shop since the new plate would cost $325 each, so, off to the shop I will take them! As for the sun disk, it is true but has some minor pitting where it sat out of fluid for extensive periods of time. Service department didn't feel a new one was needed unless it was a minor. It runs just over $100 each. I will clean mine up and see what I think. More photos to come. Tomorrow will be spent on the opposite side and trying to figure out how to remove the shoes that are attached to the pistons. Any thoughts on re-lining the brakes? I will post some close ups of the shoe material tomorrow.
If you're going to remove the friction material anyway, just support the back of the plate on eithe side of the piston, use a small diameter punch dead center between the two middle rivets should do it? Those frictions are available under several part numbers, apparently they start as an R26969, change to an R90085, and then to an AR28487. Rivets are a D1761R for the shoes and half the plate and the other size for the plate is R708R Peruse Machinery Trader and Rock and Dirt under parts, search all those numbers and make some calls, should be able to find what you need reasonable. Any outfit that rebuilds truck clutches should be able to rivet them for you, IF they're willing. Or try a Deere ag dealer, there's thousands of Ag tractors I am sure that used the same setup.
I will give that a try on the plates. I was curious how they came off after looking at them. I have already located a few places near here that replace friction plates on heavy machinery. Today I am going to pull of the other side and see what I find. I expect the same thing (fingers crossed) so I can start with getting the friction material installed early next week. More photos to come.
Got the other axle off yesterday and pulled out the brake shoes and pistons. Here are a few photos: I found a place to re-line these and the ones on the brake disk. Here is the inside of the housing where the pistons have been removed. Not the most clear, i know.
I will replace the seals since I have exposed them but I don't they were bad due to the unbelievable suction they had on the pistons. My feeling is that the back end must have been rebuilt sometime in the past and then it wasn't used much.
Got all the parts in and the brakes resurfaced. The new brake material is soaking in fluid until this weekend when I will begin putting it back together. I will take photos and may even video the wetbrake re-assembly for youtube since one doesn't seem to exist. Don't know how far I will get since we are approaching July and is it near 100 degrees out there but the re-assembly will begin after weeks of this backyard repair.
I have started video taping some of the re-assembly for anyone that is doing something similar. I have multiple parts for the process so video so far. The first of the videos is on youtube here: https://youtu.be/NoU89Qzpo7w I have tried to be thorough but I am sure I have missed something. So far there are 4 parts with more to come. I have put tags of John Deere, Wet Brakes, Backhoe so you can search for it, or look up my Channel "The Mountain"
I have one side of the brakes and axle install complete, working on the other side this weekend and should be able to test it out. I am sure there will be air in the system so I will try to get an explanation of that process on here.
I have the completed video on YouTube of the process. I have yet to get it all started and tested, but if anyone is intrested in the process to replace your wet brakes on a similar machine, have a look. Htere is the playlist of all 8 videos. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLft-QMIPuJlaC6kOwSNMddUgneNloW7J6 When I have it tested, I will post any comments.
Go everything bolted up, all the plumbing tighten back up, floor pans back in, etc, and filled her up with fluid. Then I started the old beast up and pulled it out onto the road and went back and forth.. With each application of the brakes it felt better and better. No more chatter and she stops! It was a challenging project but glad I tackled it. Overall the skill level to do the job isn't that high, but your ability to deal with numerous things to remove before you get to the brakes, ridiculous amounts of frustration and wrestling with heavy objects will be tested.
Right on! With any luck you'll never have to do that again! :drinkup
Good job! I will probably have to do this to mine. Not too many left of this model, searches for info are slim pickins. I wonder if you found the drain for the hydraulic oil. My deere book only talks about the drain for transmission. I got ten gallons out of there but system hold 30. Is this a case of only being able to get ten gallons out at a time? [email protected]
Unclehuck, The drain is below the differential. It has the fluid for the rear differential, the brakes, transaxle and pushes fluid into the rest of the system. You hold around 30 but only will drain off 10 or so that is in the transmission and differential area. Also, if you are doing the brakes and remove the transaxle, fluid will be released when you unbolt each side. It is a tough but fun job. I did an eight part video on the job. Take a look if you haven't already. I tried to cover as much as I could. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLft-QMIPuJlaC6kOwSNMddUgneNloW7J6
I did check out your video and commented on your stabilizer cylinder rebuild, good job! I have a lot of big fir stumps, anything from 4 feet diameter and smaller to dig out. my case 530ck is a great little digging hoe but a lightweight when it comes to moving the stump once it is out of the hole. the 510 has a big advantage because of its size. pm me your email and I will send some pics
Just curious how this went. We make Tribco Kevlar frictions to replace these.