Kenworth engineers have been living in the shoes of its customers – quietly driving the T680s themselves, learning first-hand what their customers are experiencing. That way, Kenworth wants to improve the truck they make. You can read more on how it was here . But I'm interested in other drivers' thoughts. Is it a good idea? Will it help to improve the life of truckers?
You want to know how to make a kenworth better? Go back to the mid 80's through the mid 90's. The new stuff is quieter, rides better, more mpg, better parts availability. The new stuff is also cheaply built, complex to repair, and unreliable as a sensor can take the entire unit down.
After they are done driving around, they need to go into the shop for six months doing repairs.... this should be mandatory for engineers on all vehicles and machines.
I see International trucks being tested on the roads around here all the time. Can't miss it. They strap concrete blocks to them and just drive a prescribed route. We're not too far from the Chicago headquarters. What's amazing to me is how some things in trucks never get improved. And I'm not talking big things. For example, how can no one make a set of mirrors that stay tight for more than 200,000 miles? Why are the climate controls terrible in every truck? The controls in our old 1978 Ford beater pickup work 50 times better than the brand new Western Star I occasionally drive. Has anyone messed with the dipstick on the newer Detroit? I mean it's a dipstick. Dead simple. But they found a way to make it beyond frustrating. I could go on and on.
Granted, I drive a Pete, but it's still a PACCAR. On the designed by morons list: Spot mirrors block 2 inches of flat glass. HVAC air intake under fender and 12 inches from turbo. Zero cab vents meaning a window has to be lowered a 1/4 inch or so to allow full hvac blower output, and complete cab door closure without super slamming it. Quarter fender marker lamps filled with water less than 2 weeks after delivery, because they are in the road wash. Metal on metal upper cab to stack pipe mount. Inadequately sized power window wiring to passenger side (driver's outruns passenger 2 to 1, and passenger side needs assisted when below 20°.) Rear access covers for headlamps fit poorly, resulting in rocks visible (and wedged) under headlamp exterior continually. Omission of grease zerks on air ride seat. I could go on and on, but, you get the point.
This looks like a spam link post to me. But I will pile on here. I wonder if it's because there is a problem with the talent pool of engineers just like everywhere else.
It should be mandatory that an engineer or architect should work in the field for a minimum of 5 years before designing anything without knowing full well the ins and outs of how it will REALLY be used, operated, repaired or installed.....if it works on paper it doesn't always work out in the real world....
Very few engineers I’ve been around possessed much in the way of common sense. Book smart as hell but practical knowledge.....not so much. Kinda like “you can’t take my picture” “why not?” “Your lense cap is on” Their tendency to overthink things is annoying to me!
I wonder if the sales-type people are always thinking the way they can boost their sales is to add a couple new features every year. And I wonder if it works, since they just keep doing it. The big fleet buyers are in the driver's seat, you would presume.
OP smells fishy to me too... but whatever I like what Grandpa said. Have those book smart, common-sense-stupid engineers work in a shop on these things for a year or two. S*** is way too complicated. We have to be software engineers to work on anything anymore. What used to be a simple repair, can turn into $1000 in special tools and a ton more labor. Like stated above, nowadays one crappy sensor takes the whole ship down. If you’re asking for input on how to make the trucks nicer to drive, i think you asked the wrong group. They’re pretty damn nice to drive in my opinion. We don’t really care what the operators have to say anyways. You build them the perfect truck, they’ll find something to bitch about
The neighboor kid is in a heavy equpment engineering program at Ferris State U. Spent the first 2 years wrenching, the second 2 years are engineering.... 'bout damn time these kids got greasy. Ed
In a perfect world, maybe. But how do you imagine this? A talented architect drives a truck across a country for 5 years to gain some perspective?
But we owe to these book smart nerds. If not for them, we would be still driving horse - drawn vehicles
Interesting discussion. The other day I took one of our Mack out for a couple loads of rock. These trucks are the definitions of "owners" trucks. They are both 20 years old and have 300,000 thousand miles in the dirt and salt. They have been a great investments for the principles... however as one of the end users of one of these lovely units from time to time it makes me wonder if the master cab design engineer at Mack has ever set in one of his or her creations for more than five minutes. What would have been so $%@* difficult about pushing the back of the cab back 6 inches. I am tall and spending a shift in a Mack vocational cab of the past (not familiar with a new one) is a little like spending the day sitting in a dryer. I know the cab is tough and that was part of the design reasoning... but Geez!
I'm not sure whether your intention there was to make the whole idea sound silly, or whether you really don't get it. No, it probably wouldn't do an architect any good to drive a truck, but a potentially talented architect might gain a lot by working a few years in the building trades, from the foundation to the roof, and everything in between, just as a potential civil engineer might have a lot to gain by getting dirty hands and muddy boots actually constructing things for a few years. And yes, a potential mechanical engineer might come up with a few better ideas, or eliminate a few stupid ones, by operating, driving, or wrenching on trucks and equipment for a while before ever setting about to design something.
It comes down to engineers dont know what they dont know because a shop lab environment wont cover about half of real world application Also every one is so hung up on designing the next level they forget how much all the frills get in the way of the job I agree with junkyard that engineers over think it to much and with most of them they assume Because you are not an engineer you dont grasp the ins and outs of a machine but in reality a good mechanic has to no the monster dt better than the designer so you can troubleshoot and repair in the field under the gun and figure out how to use a short cut to save time
Not all engineers make dumb decisions. I am a mechanical engineer, but I am not a design engineer. I got away from that side of engineering fast. I couldn't stand being told this idea and that idea are too expensive to implement, even though it was a better long term solution. Work 60 hour weeks in a box in front of a computer. Made everyone feel like cattle. Truth be told, accountants run businesses. All businesses. I've seen great ideas get scrapped due to cost of implementation. And we're talking dollars per unit, not thousands of dollars per unit. But, when you manufacture enough units, a few dollars per unit becomes a sizeable number.
Also, by far the best engineers I ever worked besides , were guys that worked their way up from an entry level position on the shop floor, and transitioned into engineering with little or no formal education. Guys that started off building, machining, etc the parts and components or assembled them in the factory and had the drive to be more than a button pusher in a plant. Unfortunately, today's mentality is that if you don't have a 4 year degree, you don't get to make that transition anymore. Those guys are getting near retirement age, and a lot of great talent is going out with them.
Agreed. They’re not all bad. I’ve teamed up with a few and we’ve created some awesome stuff. They’ve moved on to other projects normally out of my wheelhouse and called me to consult for one reason or another. I’m self taught in the areas I need to use. Mainly structural stuff like deflection, modulous of elasticity etc. Lord know what some say about mechanics! Lol
I look at some of the equipment being built these days and honestly, I could build most of this stuff 10x better than an "engineer"
We need to get somebody with some money, somebody with some business sense and poach a bunch of good old disgusted engineers from Cat and the like and form a new company that builds things that make sense, and listens to the customer. We might make a lot of money. Or we might be crushed.
I like the ethos at the company where my #2 son works. Pretty much everyone at the top of the company started off right at the bottom driving a delivery van. Speaking to some of his managers they’re all pretty well grounded. None of them think their path to the top did them any harm at all.
A hay hauling outfit I do a lot of truck work for has an old '86 Peterbilt 359 with a 3406B Cat, very well kept up by yours truly. they use it as a service rotation truck when the newer trucks are down. I swear you cant get the drivers out of it when their truck is ready to go. No tilt wheel, no power windows, no plastic, and no derates. But those guys love it.
Grove crane built the first tms 250 and tms 300's in 1973. Those two models were built virtually unchanged from 1973, until the mid/late 1990's. The model 30 winches the tms 300 used were supplied with some grove cranes until the mid 2000's. They are a simple, good design, no need to reinvent the wheel every year. The computer systems installed on a lot of the new stuff, in 10 years is no longer made/supported, so you can have a machine you can't run. Nobody want's to build a crane with a 20' outrigger span, because they get a lot better chart with a 24' span, and less counterweight. Never mind that most driveways are less than 24'. National finally heard enough complaints, but instead of 20' they give you a 1/2 outrigger chart (which doesn't help much- your tailswing is still wider). And they give you a option of longer jacks, because everyone whines they are a pain to set up in a crooked spot. The market for dedicated truck carriers has gotten tougher also, because of emissions. Its easier to just have kenworth, pete, and freightliner deal with the constant new engine designs, and just build a crane that mounts on their truck, than make their own. The design costs have to be horrible, for no more units than they would sell, to build a truck crane today. Pre 2000's day cab semi-tractors by me are at a premium, if in good shape. No one wants to deal with e-logs, or again, the emissions. t800 and w900's. 359 and 379's. 3406- N-14, 12.7 60 series. Even good r-series mack dumps will bring good money. Good simple designs. Older Road trucks can have sleepers pulled and become day cabs or dumps. Not with any of the new areo trucks- the used market for them is nothing- their only worth is in parts- engine trans and rears. late-90's early 2000 ford 7.3 and dodge cummins trucks are also premium priced. The problem with most of them, is that they are getting to have so many miles on them, they are almost unrebuildable. Two ford's side by side- one with a 7.3 and one with a 6.4, but the 6.4 ten years newer, will be $8-10,000 difference, and not for the newer truck. "The dirt is the same as it ever was, we just keep inventing more and more complicated ways to move it" - paraphrased from Scrub Puller- ( I miss reading his posts)
The list of dumb ideas that never seem to change in truck manufacturing goes on and on. KW and their crappy clutch linkage and weak cross shaft bearings for the clutch pedal. Peterbilt and their crappy wiper system that cracks out the cowl. Freightliner and their cheap plastic dash that cracks out around the dash valves, They cut the airlines too short to the dash valves when you remove them the air lines disappear in the dash. Window motors the size of a slot car engine that will toast if the engine isn't running. All three companies have completely screwed up the wiring systems with Multiplex wiring. Glue in Windshields need I go on. My favorite line I tell them when brass shows up at the shop {It's a good thing you don't build airplanes} Truck Shop
While I'm on a nonsense rant- a trucking magazine I get just had a huge write up about new Mack road tractors- aero cabs, which are probably just rebranded volvo's from the parent corp. Article reads pretty good, but they are probably advertisers in the magazine- so no real objectivity. Mack's customers historically, have never been the over the road truckers. Their history is in the vocational, dump truck, concrete mixer hard use construction trucks. They seem to have totally given up that market, to chase the road trucks. I have no idea who makes the decisions- probably all over in europe, but the mack dealer nearest me is no use to anyone. International seems to have taken over some of the vocational truck market here, with a smattering of paccar or freightliner/western star.
How do I imagine this? It should be MANDATORY to get a degree, weather you're an architect or an engineer. Get you arse out in the field and see what's it like OUT THERE so what is designed has some real world experience behind it. Do you think operators of equipment just "showed up" when they decided "I want to run a machine" not until they could prove they could operate a shovel and show up everyday, day after day, I guarantee that.....
Could start with automotive design. Give me an industrial grade pickup. Basic bare bones engine that will pass emissions. Hang that in a pair of straight frame rails. Put a bolt together cab. Heater and Air. Build a body that bolts together. It doesn't have to be pretty, just functionable. Top loaded tranny. Then like the volkswagon beetle, build it for ever with the same body parts.
A local company that I used to deal with manufactures raspberry harvesters. Probably 20-25 years ago they started a program where 2 engineers would design a new machine, then go out on the floor and help build it and then when completed were sent along with the machine for the harvest season. These machines were sent around the world and it was very interesting when the engineers returned home. Their first reactions were usually, "it broke" like nothing they would design would ever break, and then it was "and man was it hard to get at that piece to fix it". I can tell you numerous things changed on those machines after that. I loved it, finally and engineer was forced to deal with his creations.
Pea viner's or pickers are a great example. A friend of mine that runs a machine shop here in town use to work building them. He always said about repairing one- {You cut your way in and weld your way out} . Truck Shop
Worked with Enganears at the Nuke and at Gelco Rental, most were all ears until time to apply then did their own thing anyway most of the time getting their butts chewed out for wasting techs time. We had Sludge Ponds at the Nuke 3 acres square and designed to hold the mud from our water clarifying system. They saved the water thru a decant structure in a corner of the pond and set up BY BLUEPRINT to discharge the mud into the center. When that was TOO expensive to build they re-designed with opposite corner to decant mud spill entry. Was 'Enga splained' as to "the Mud will flow out and find level" looked that moron in the eye and said tell me that again in six months. It was around that time frame the first long reach excavator was rented to Shove the mud mass out toward center while trenching performed to add MORE discharge points to get More mud into a rapidly end filling pond. Spent close to four times as much remedying the issue all us Country Boys told them would NOT work as planned. They STILL build new ponds same as the old gonna prove us wrong.