I've been having some issues with my D65e-6 gradually overheating after about 2 hours of use. I have started troubleshooting based on engine/dozer service manuals but hoping to get some additional advice here. Here are the areas I've been focusing on: Low Fluids - I have been carefully watching coolant/fluid levels...hasn't been a factor. Stalling Torque Converter Excessively - I'm new to dozer operation and I realized I may have been stalling the torque converter too often when hitting large stumps. I think I have ruled this cause out as last time it overheated I was being "gentle" on her. Slipping Fan Belt - Belt appears to be properly tensioned and haven't noticed any lack of air flow. Dirty/Clogged Radiator - I noticed an inability to see through the radiator so I started pressure washing it yesterday. An hour later I was still getting muddy water from it but I think I finally got it clean. Failed Thermostat - Ordered a new thermostat as the housing doesn't look to have been touched in a long while. I'm hoping the heavily clogged radiator is my main issue, but any other areas I should be checking? One other thing I'll mention. When the machine hits the 200 mark, it will often stop running before I have the chance to let it cool down. It seems to be fuel supply related as it slowly dies then if I try to crank it a few minutes later it will start to fire for a few seconds and then nothing. Wait 30 minutes and it fires right up. My theory is that once the temp hits a certain mark the fuel lines running through the heads are getting vapor locked or something. This is a Cummins N855. Does this sound like a good theory on the engine dying?
Is the belly pan clean? Nothin packed underneath the motor all around the oil pan? 200 really isn't stupid hot. 215-220 is where I would get nervous. Assuming the gauge is accurate anyway. If you have your trusty infrared thermometer I'd take some temps when it gets to acting funny. Upper and lower hoses, tanks on radiator, heads, block, oil cooler, fuel tank, fuel filters, fuel lines etc. See what it's really doing temp wise and we might be able to narrow it down. Sometimes a seemingly unrelated issue can be the root cause. Any intake leaks? If she's running rich or lean it'll run the temp up. Several things it could be, I bet the others will chime in too..... Junkyard
Yeah, 200 over two hours is no problem if it's full of coolant. It sure sounds like you made it better with the radiator cleaning, even if it isn't spotless. I'd leave the new thermostat on the shelf until or unless you confirm the old one isn't opening properly by the temperatures of the hoses when it's as hot as you get it. I can't help you with the fuel starvation if that's what you think it is. No smoke or noise when it's dying, right? Maybe a weak coil in the fuel system?
Have you drained any crud out of the bottom of the fuel tank? There is a butterfly valve on the bottom of the tank you can access from the back of the machine. Most time people don't know about the valve and the pipe plugs up with crud. I've had to drive a welding rod up the pipe to get it to drain at times. As I recall there was a fuel strainer in those machines towards the back of the engine. Trace the fuel lines back from the fuel pump and see what you can see. I seem to recall it was a small canister with a screw on cap on top. Take off the cap and there was a wire basket underneath. Clogged radiator was the usual problem with overheating those machines. You should watch the torque convertor temperature gauge and the engine coolant gauge at the same time. What you want to know is if the engine coolant temperature is driving up the torque converter temp or vice versa. Two hours is about what it take to heat up all that transmission fluid from first start. Engine coolant temp should warm up pretty quickly to a normal run temp.
Yair . . . John C. Mentions the outlet valve plugging . . . the fuel runs by gravity down to the float tank and is lifted from there by the pump. If the tractor is working hard the float tank could be depleted and, if the gravity flow from tank is reduced by gunk and blockage and (say) low fuel in tank in theory the engine could starve for fuel. but would run fine if the fuel was given time to trickle down and replenish the float tank . . . if that makes sense at all. In heavy dust I found I had to hose out radiators once a week at least . . . as mentioned by Junkyard I too always placed importance in maintaining airflow around the sump. Cheers.
i have an old D75-S3 if i can turn the fan blade without the engine turning it will run hot on a 90 degree day
If I skip cleaning the radiator on the old Case for more than 2 days in the hot summer the operator will call me out on it. Says he notices a slight increase in engine temps. Hopefully the radiator was just dirty.
Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll attempt to answer all the questions: *Belly pans are spotless as of 3 weeks ago(they were HORRID before that). Overheating has occurred since cleaning the pans. *Fuel Delivery. I hadn't investigated that but theorized that it wasn't a problem given that it only seems to coincide with temps at 200+, but I'll check. *Dying details. It acts just like if you turn the switch off....slow idle down...no smoke or abnormal noises. 5 minutes later if you attempt to start you get a bit of black smoke and it wants to start but seems to only have enough fuel to fire a few times. *Finding the heat. Torque converter gauge is apparently not functional. Bought a new one to install last night. I have been suspicious of the trans b/c the first and worst time this occurred I could feel a fair amount of heat escaping from around the seat. I shot the trans pump and top of torque converter last time it threatened to hit 200 and it was definitely the hottest thing on the machine @ around 210. Top of engine and water manifold was 185ish, but it had been sitting for a few minutes. One other clue is that the aux hydraulic tank also got pretty hot on the first occurrence. I didn't have the temp gauge at the time but it got hot enough that it was causing pressure and hyd fluid bubbles where the two sides of the tank bolt together. If this happens again, I'll get better readings. This poor machine has clearly been neglected so I'm gradually getting maintenance caught up. Trans/steering filters should be delivered today. I pulled the trans filter and it looked dirty to my untrained eye(pleats were almost black...assuming they are white when new). It also looked like the bypass valve at top had been activating as there were slight score marks on the metal from apparent motion. My dad was telling me that he's seen some equipment have a mechanism to shut off coolant flow to trans oil coolers for winter operation. Is there a provision for that on the d65? I can't seem to find any sign of one.
Here's a quick vid showing how horrible the engine pan was. This was after 15 minutes of shoveling. The trans pan was about the same.
It could have a Murphy temperature safety switch installed that is killing it at 200+ degrees. Overfueling will cause one to heat up as well. Look for excessive smoke. More than likely, the radiator tubes are plugged inside with scale.
Given the history of neglect, a cooling system flush and new coolant is a good idea whether it's overheating or not. The failure to maintain the belly pans and blow out the radiator will overheat quickly. Neglecting the coolant (as long as it hasn't had swamp water added) will slowly rust out the engine, not good, but not as IMMEDIATELY dangerous to operation. Drain the old coolant after it's been running a while so all the junk is stirred up, drain into a clean white bucket so you can see how what settles out. Backflush the radiator by removing the hoses and cap, filling with a running garden hose in the top tank and blowing it out with an air nozzle and rag stuffed into the bottom tank. Take a look into the top tank before and after, the top of the tubes is where the deposits collect for some reason. Then fill it with rainwater and run it till hot, drain into the white bucket again, and repeat until comfortable.
My Allis has a heat up issue when working hard, radiator is limed pretty heavily where when I get healed up I have a spare to swap to get this one tanked and cleaned. Other repairs while in there but still awaiting heal up from back/neck work.
Does it have a thermostat for the torque converter? If so it could be bad. I would bet cleaning the radiator helps though. I've thought about adding a Murphy box to the dozer. A good piece of mind but also one more thing to give trouble.
It has a converter thermostat but it was broken. I have the replacement ready to install. I looked at the lines from pt pump to the heads and there are no electronic valves so unless it is further up stream i dont think i have the murphy setup.
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Weekend update. I ran the dozer for 2 hours this morning after installing the torque converter temp gauge. The main temp gauge looked great the entire time, never getting about 180. The TC temp, however, steadily climbed to about 190 in the first hour and then fluctuated between 200 and 230 the second hour. Any time it got above 210 I would basically park the dozer and leave it at high idle and the TC temp would come down a few degrees per minute. I took IR readings at various points on the trans, trans filter, trans pumps and lines and they were all between 200 and 210, which matched the new gauge reading at the time. The oil cooler casing matched the temp at the thermostat(175), which I guess is not a surprise. The pipes going into the cooler that I believe to be the trans cooling pipes were strangely cool...around 130. I started researching the cooling circuit for the TC to figure out how it works. I see that the oil has to bypass a regulator valve at about 50 psi to get to the oil cooler. I cracked open the outlet pipe and put something under the opening to see how much oil volume is passing. The flow was very low, probably well under 1 gpm. I'm assuming the flow would need to be much higher than that to cool enough oil to make a difference. So I figure the regulator valve is the most likely restriction point and I'm in the process of trying to investigate it. I'm having some trouble removing the top cap screw to inspect the valve but I'll take another stab at it tomorrow. If you guys have any additional advice based on the new findings I'm all ears! -Jason
The regulator valve appeared to be in good working order with no trash or obstructions to flow, although I can't be sure that the spool was within tolerances. I've gotten together some pressure gauges and I'm planning on checking readings this week to see if I can identify the problem. Its actually probably a good thing that the water temp was spiking and causing me to stop working before or I might have cooked the transmission with not having a working gauge on the TC.
Do you have "ranges" on the oil temp gauge? because the hot range for oil is higher than for coolant, coolant can't boil or you get hot spots, the boiling point of oil is much higher, hot is more relative. The cool trans cooling pipes does seem wrong.
No its just a standard temp gauge. Service manual says operating temp on trans is like 170-190 degrees, so 210-220 starts making me nervous. I think i may have been reading the steering lines going into cooler. I checked the pipes from TC at a point before they disappear under engine and the hot line matched my TC temp gauge(200 at the time) and the return line was around 160. So cooler seems to be working but I am pretty sure the flow is too low.
Yes, that makes sense. If the oil cooler is cooled by engine coolant at 160, then yes, the flow is way too low. On the other hand if the coolant going through the filter is much cooler than the returning oil, then it would seem to be performing as designed. I don't have any knowledge specific to Komatsu to tell you how that circuit works. Some Deeres have a relief valve that allows fluid to BYPASS the cooler at a certain pressure, such as when the fluid is cold and stiff. I'd figure out the whole cooler system from the service manual to see what's supposed to go on, vs what is going on.
Yep, think i have a handle on how the fluid flows at this point so just a matter of testing pressures at various locations. I figure either my pump is weak or one or more valves upstream are allowing the pressure to drop too much. It seems weird to me that the cooling cicuit would depend on a pressure valve to cool the oil but I am sure there is a good reason for it.
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I have never heard of a thermostat for the torque converter and the valves you are describing sound more like the convertor outlet pressure control. That valve just keeps a minimum amount of oil pressure inside the torque converter impeller, stator and turbine cavities. As I recall it generally ran around 12 PSI at normal operating temperature but could run up to 60 or so when the oil was cold. Problems I have seen are when that pressure is near nothing indicating leakage of fluid getting out of those previously mentioned cavities. The leakage then drops into the torque converter case where a scavenge pump pushed it into the shafts and bearings of the transmission to lube it. Your book should call it lube pressure. When that leakage becomes excessive the oil fills up the casing and the rotating member has friction against it causing heat. Further compounding the problem is now the oil leakage does not go to the cooler at all and the hot oil is now being pumped directly back into the transmission shafts and bearings hot.
Your are correct about checking your outlet pressure. The book will give you a minimum spec and I can tell you the machine will run with near nothing. You can shim the pressure control and it might help if the pressure is low. I don't think your transmission pump is bad because the transmission is fail safe to go to neutral if there isn't enough flow. The other thing you can check is the torque converter housing has a drain plug on the bottom. After running the machine for awhile you can park the machine and let it sit for a bit. You will need something to hold four or five gallons of oil. Pull the plug and see how much oil comes out of the housing. Normally you should see maybe a gallon. If you get four or five gallons you likely have a torque converter or a scavenge pump that is toast. I've haven't seen much trouble with the coolers except them bleeding fluids into the wrong sides at times. The water sides can get plugs with bits of liner O rings. For some reason the diameter of the O rings is just about the same as the tubes in the coolers and the bits get lodged inside preventing water flow. I seem to remember anything more than 10 degrees drop in temp through the cooler was enough. Good Luck!
Any reference I made to thermostat was for the cooling system. The problem started as a coolant overheating issue, but that was solved by a thorough cleaning of the radiator. Coolant temps don't get about 180 now. Around that same time I installed temp sensor for the torque converter and discovered that the temp was spiking after about an hour of use. I cracked open the outlet pipe going to the oil cooler and had only a dribble of oil with the machine running, so I know my oil flow to the cooler is pretty low. Tonight I hooked up a gauge at the outlet relief valve to see what the pressure looked like there. The manual calls for 2-3 Kg/cm2 at operating temperature. I started around 6 Kg/cm2 when the fluid was cold and dropped to 3 Kg/cm2 at operating temperature, so I am ok from a pressure standpoint. The other thing that occurred to me tonight is that I have not yet checked the strainer for the transmission. Lord knows this poor machine has had its share of neglect so I doubt the strainer has seen the recommended 1000 hour service intervals. Since I need to drain the fluid for that, I can perform the torque converter fluid amount tests that you are recommending while I'm at it.
Today I performed the converter flood test that was recommended. I only got about a gallon of fluid from the torque converter, but i struggled with the drain plug for bit. I did run the dozer for 3 to 5 minutes just before pulling the plug but never put it in gear or anything. So i am not sure if the test was valid. Attached are pictures of what i found on the strainers. That is the trans strainer (or lack thereof) on the left. Looks like someone cut it off and just put the end cap and spring back in. The scavenge pump strainer is on the right. It was moderately clogged but i am not sure it was enough to prevent the pump from doing its job. Either way, I doubt it is going to have much positive impact on the overheating issue.
Zero improvement in the overheat as expected. I am going to experiment with shimming the valve that supplies the cooling loop but I should probably start researching A converter overhaul. Are the parts that cause leakage generally servicable? The service manual lists tolerances for various parts so hoping i can rebuild.
In my experience that amount of oil isn't bad. The red stuff on the strainer basket tells me someone has been in there before. Usually steering clutch covers and such. Any chance a steering brake might be dragging? I would suggest taking an oil sample next. Usually when the converter is leaking by a lot you will have a real high aluminum reading. The parts that usually go bad are the impeller, turbine and stator. The bearings holding them in place get a little loose and the parts start touching a bit. That is what makes the aluminum in the oil. They are not serviceable. If they touch at all they are junk. Also keep in mind that if you pull the converter you should also pull the cooler and have it checked.
Yea the TC has red rtv all around the perimeter of it so someone obviously took it off at some point. I dont believe I have brake drag because it will keep rolling down an incline in nuetral and i adjusted them to manual specs recently. The shimmed valve didnt make a difference. I am going to recheck the flow to the cooler again today. I took the intake pipe off of the trans pump and saw something interesting. The oil that was left in the intake port drained through the pump in less than a minute. I dont think a hydraulic pump within tolerances should allow that to happen. I am going to order a new one. If i replace the torque converter i would buy the new pump anyway while i was at it.
You need a large oil flow through the TQ to carry away the heat. You've drained the case as per John C's instruction and only got a gallon out, so although that doesn't completely rule out internal leakage, it kind of suggests that may not be the problem. I would speculate that because your tranny pump has been running without a suction screen, it's worn out. Even a badly worn gear pump will have no trouble making the lowly pressure a TQ needs, but will not deliver the flow. personally, I would be taking a look at the pump before pulling the torque converter.
Cmark, thanks for the feedback. I am hoping to to have a new pump by early next week. I just replaced the steering pump a few weeks ago due to loosing prime so I know first hand how much difference a good pump can make. I have been really tempted to see if the new steering pump would bolt in for the trans because they look identical. They are different part numbers though so i guess something is different about them. Sure would be nice to run the dozer for more than 45 minutes at a time.
I also learned a little about Komatsu price gouging this week. I knew i needed to replace that strainer while i had all the fluid drained. I found it online for $60 but quickest shipping was s2 days. Called the local dealer to see if they had it on hand. I gave him the part number and he told me he could have it by the next day at a cost of $508. I had to make him repeat himself because I didnt believe it. He said he hadnt sold one since 2006....no wonder at that price. Heaven help me if something breaks that doesnt have aftermarket supply.
been there done that with local dealer. track adjuster seals. one seal at dealer cost more the the whole kit after market AND the seal kit parts had the same name as dealer parts
IMO there's no such thing as price gouging, just free market forces at work. All things being equal, if a dealer sees himself losing sales to a competitor with a cheaper price, he will have to lower his price to compete.
Good point and I'm experiencing a bit of that right now. I've called 4 places looking to order the aftermarket pump. There are apparently none available in the U.S. at this moment. Most are listed around $200, but I've resorted to calling the ones that are listed at $375 to check availability. I guess its all about what its worth to get the part quickly. ;-) But the Komatsu guy did say he hadn't sold one since 2006....you'd think they would take a hint.
I've found it's always best to Google the part# and look it up on Amazon. Sometimes you can save a bunch of money. That being said I paid $50 extra and $13 in shipping because the local dealer could have a sensor I needed at 8am the next day. Just depends on how bad you need the parts I guess.
I'm having the same overheating torque convertor issues you have except mine only occur when i'm tracking one direction for awhile. I walked it 6KM and had to stop every hour to let the TC cool down. Of course i have those Komatsu Green Good, Red Bad gauges still so i have no idea what temp it was really getting to. When i would do a few turns back a forth on a landing it was fine for some reason. I still run all the original pumps on mine but did an entire fluid flush of every system before we took it to the bush. i did find excessive build up of grey sludge in my transmission but it didn't concern the HD mechanics that looked at it for me. My fun ended last week when one of the seals between the final and steer case blew out and now needs to be replaced.
ATCme, that does seem strange. Do you think that the seal that blew out may be somehow related? If you are talking about one of the gaskets between the castings I wouldn't expect those to have any pressure on them. The only variable I have with mine is the harder I work it the quicker it overheats. Even then, its the difference between having to shut it down at 45 minutes verses 1 hour. I have called like 6 different online aftermarket suppliers trying to find the trans pump and they were all on back order. I'm guessing they must all use the same parts distributor. I finally went to machinerytrader.com and searched for the part number and found a company out of Miami FL that had their own inventory. I paid about $100 more than the going price online but it'll be worth it if it means I can have it running before this weekend.
So have you taken your pump off and looked at it?
The internal seal that separates the steer oil from the final drive on mine went. There were no obvious signs of leaks on the outside of mine, all internal. I am told it is a common failure. One side of mine was already fixed when i got it. If the seal is gone then most likely the bearing is gone too. I only noticed when i could hear a faint clunk going forwards to reverse. I checked the rear dipsticks and got soaked in oil when i opened one. I don't think mine over heats from this issue. Like yours it will easily roll downhill in neutral. I have an issue with it having trouble moving cold, once hot it moves easily even while idling. Have you looked at the second strainer in the transmission on yours? Both of mine were clean but my tranny filter was trying to suck fluid through all the goo in the picture i posted above. Once cleaned and new oil was put in there was a definite difference in performance. I get all my parts through SMS Equipment here in BC. These D65 dozers were really popular in Alberta and i have had zero trouble finding any parts for it. I was going to do my TC pump as well but i have to do the final first before i do anymore damage.
Not completely but i took the intake pipe off and saw that fluid runs through it on its own free will.
So what we call in the trade; "shooting it with the parts cannon". Definitely a second tier troubleshooting procedure, but I most sincerely hope it solves your problem. If it doesn't, please post back here with absolutely no prejudice.
And throwing parts at something has it's place, like a lot of cummins parts are cheap and easy to get, so why not just put a different fuel pump on it? that doesn't sound like the case with this transmission pump. Maybe the fluid running through means it's toast, I don't know. I'd be more comfortable seeing the insides if there was a lot of money or time involved.
I get what you are saying, but I've already spent hours troubleshooting the usual causes based on the service manual and suggestions on this thread, so I feel like the pump replacement is a bit more educated than a shotgun approach. I feel like I have enough red flags to spend the $300 on the pump. Here is what I know thus far based on troubleshooting: Very low fluid volume to the oil cooler. Pressure readings are correct at the trans filter(300psi) and at the regulator valve on the outlet of the Torque converter(50psi) and the valves I have checked seem to be in good working order. No evidence of TC flooding with initial fluid draining test. No strainer on transmission and based on amount of dirt/decaying debris I had to dig out of the belly pan it has probably been without strainer for very long time. While trans pump is running there is a 10-15 degree increase in temp between inlet and outlet port. ( Oil in the pumps inlet port quickly leaks through the pump when it is not moving. ( I know this may not be a very scientific test but the steering gear pump prime issue taught me that a gear pump needs tight tolerances to properly function.) So based on the evidence I have, I know that I'm achieving the 300psi pressure required but not receiving high enough oil flow to the cooler circuit. Either the volume of fluid is escaping somewhere that I haven't checked or the pump is not producing the volume required. I would prefer to confirm the actual volume output of the pump but I can't think of an easy way to verify that without some elaborate rigging. If there are other first tier troubleshooting steps let me know. ;-)
Looking at my service manual the main filter comes after the transmission pump. If your transmission strainer is gone then the pump has been sucking directly from the pan with no filtration. My guess would be a bad pump.
What people are getting at is that it doesn't take much to remove the pump and tear it down for inspection to be sure. Just might need a seal kit because the overheating cooked them out.
Any good hydraulics shop has the machinery to bench a pump, can flow and pressure test it ass needed. My old trans pump was hard to get to take suction, once I got the suction line leaks stopped the pump still would not self prime, clearances had opened so far it would bypass internally.
I wondered about flow testing at a shop. Good to know for future reference. The new pump is supposed to deliver tomorrow. I know I'm basing the replacement off of partial evidence and I appreciate all the input on how to make sure I'm not wasting money. I haven't dealt with heavy machinery very long but I've had my share of ag tractors and I've had to replace hydraulic pumps more than any other component....and always with good results. I guess that might be due to my tendency to buy cheap/abused/neglected equipment. ;-)
The new pump is pretty but unfortunately did not solve or even improve the overheating issue. The only obvious answer is that the new pump must be defective. Kidding of course. Before I took the old pump off, I decided to double check the flow to the cooler again to confirm the dribble. Got surprised by a spray of oil. The difference between the first and second test was about 80 degrees fahrenheit. I am wondering if this may also point to my torque converter flood test being faulty. Could the torque converter leaks/flooding only be occurring after the fluid warms up and get thinner? I am running out of causes but will continue troubleshooting today. Hopefully without wasting another $300.
The oil temp could very well be another contributing factor. Often with older unknown machines you end up with multiple issues manifesting themselves in strange ways. I've dealt with it before. Heck most of us have. On the D11 what was thought to be cylinders bypassing was a pump etc as well. Worked ok cold but much temp and it went to crap. Even if you end up throwing a few parts at it you've done a great job of troubleshooting and relaying information. That's worth a lot, often people come here for help and argue with advice, don't follow suggestions and hope they can order a magic wand off EBAY and fix it..... There's a thread on here kinda like that but I'm not gonna name names Also, about the time you think you've been completely stumped you'll notice something or recall something and whatever that pesky little widget is will be the answer. I've had that **** wake me up in the middle of the night. Good job so far, I'm sure you'll figure it out! Junkyard
Thanks. There were a few curse words uttered this morning as the guage passed 190. At least I am getting very proficient at removing the floor panels and the belly access panel. Also learned to tie some twine to my wrenches as a quick way to retrieve them from the belly of the beast.
Yair . . . I have been watching this thread with interest as the O/P has been methodical and logical with his approach. There is little I can contribute as my experience with these tractors was very positive and they had few issues . . . although one thing does puzzle me. I see mention here of "oil cooler" as though it is an oil to water heat exchanger . . . my recollection of the power shift D65 is a separate narrow oil radiator on the left hand side looking from the front. Maybe my memory is wrong and that was a different machine? Cheers.
While I have not fully traced the lines on mine, the parts books and service manual both refer to an oil cooler/heat exchanger for the trans. Today I left the footboards off while operating and discovered something interesting. I have a fair amount of fluid leaking from around one of the shift levers at the top of the trans. Based on parts diagrams it doesnt look like those levers should have any oil pressure on them. I also checked the trans fluid level around this time(with engine running) and the fluid levels showed high. The trans valve assembly is something I havent checked yet and fluid must pass through it before getting to torque converter. Any chance I could have a trans flooding scenario? Tomorrow I will check fluid levels at various points during the heat up process. I am aalso going to try to confirm good fluid volume on the cooler return line since this lastnight I discovered the flow TO the cooler is much better when the fluid is cold. (Made quite the mess)
Have we absolutely eliminated the coolers as being the problem? I have a Fiat Allis dozer that presented exactly the same symptoms. Shot it with the parts cannon, but it wasn't until we found both the engine and transmission oil coolers 30% blocked, that we solved the problem.
In a torque converter powertrain, the vast majority of the heat is made internally by the torque converter. If you feel the transmission case getting hot before the torque outlet valve, you've got something wrong. Just to clarify the discussion about flooding the torque converter in either an excess internal leakage or faulty scavenge pump scenario, the heat in this situation is caused by the case filling up and the torque converter running in the oil. If this is happening, the case will quickly get too hot to touch and the extra drag may be noticeable as loss of power. It may even bring the engine temp up as well.
Queenslander. We have not. It think my troubleshooting has been muddied by doing various tests at random/different operating temps. Now that i know there is good potential flow to the cooler with cold fluids, I am going to try to check the volume on the return line while it is still cool. I have tried to pinpoint the source of the heat and it seems to be the TC. Once I get to overheat territory the temps are all about the same on every component with the pump outlet showing +10 degrees to the rest of the system.
jasonharville, Iam probably barking up the wrong tree, but on our tractor, it was the coolant tubes that were blocked in the coolers, so oil flow wasn't affected. Both the engine and transmission temps would rise together, overheating within an hour.
Hey guys. Sorry I haven't posted much I've been kind of frustrated. I haven't made much progress with the overheating research because the tractor started doing it's shut down thing again. This time it's happening more frequently. It will usually run for 30 to 45 minutes when it's been sitting for a long while but gets more frequent with use. When it stops it does so abruptly just as if the switch is turned. Let it sit for 5 minutes and it will usually start up again and run for 5 minutes or so then shut off again.I started troubleshooting the fuel delivery system and found moderately clogged drain assembly on the fuel tank. I also found a complete lack of fuel screen in the fuel tank and there is also no fuel filter or water separator in the system so I am suspicious that I may have some trash further down the line or even in the PT pump. I thought for sure i had screen/filter clog issue bc of the way it is acting. But if I had gradual clogging going on i would think it would act fuel starved for a bit rather than quick shutdown. There is a fuel solenoid valve in the inlet of the pump. Going to investigate that today. On the overheat topic, i checked outlet volume on the oil cooler circuit. When fluid is cold the is plentiful volume coming through the return line. It seems as the fluid warms my volume to the cooler decreases. I guess that means the thin fluid is finding places to escape. Should I go through the effort of pulling the trans valve assembly given the leaks observed at the shift lever? I think my only other option is major torque converter issues at this point. Btw, the trans showed overfull on dipstick at all temp ranges. I may have overfilled it at some point...i am not sure. I wish there was a way to check TC fluid levels at the same time.
Well scratch that. I just found some filters in an hatch to the left of the drivers seat.
Well those don't look factory. I have one big filter in the same spot but i don't think it has anything to do with my transmission? You replaced a pump but was it the scavenge pump or the transmission pump? Fluid in the T/C case should be minimal. The few times i drained mine there was less than a beer can in it of oil.
I have to pull the radiator on my Allis, it has run hot since the week I bought it and suspicion is the core is limed over from years of service on well water or pond water. I have a spare from a donor tractor I had cleaned, uncertain if the spare will last very long so am seriously thinking of these guidelines for attempting cleanout as the closest heavy radiator shop is now 150 miles away.
I'm not sure if they are factory or not but I was at least glad to see there was some kind of fuel filtration. The two smaller ones on the left are the fuel filters and the large one is engine oil. There are actually two different oil filters on this thing as it also has the same sized filter mounted on the side of the engine. I was hoping it might be some sort of supplemental filtration for the TC and was causing my flow problems, but no such luck. I still have not done much overheat troubleshooting with the machine cutting off too frequently to overheat the TC. I've been working my way from the tank to the PT pump looking for restrictions or possible air leaks. The throttle shaft had a leak as did a loose elbow fitting for one of the fuel lines. I replaced seals and tightened fittings thinking it must be the cause of the problem, but it went right back to its shutoff routine during testing. I learned from cleaning inlets, replacing fuel filters, etc that air being introduced into the lines does not seem to cause an abrupt stop like I am experiencing during operation. Its more of a slow speed decrease as the air is introduced. So next on the list is the electronic fuel shutoff solenoid as it is about the only thing I can think would cause it to shut down just like the key has been turned off. Definitely also seems to be tied to engine temp increase as it rarely happens the first 30 minutes of operation. I'm hoping I have a heat related short in the solenoid circuit. For the overheat problem, I have been considering buying a hydraulic flow meter to try to pinpoint where I'm losing fluid volume after the fluid heats up. Looks like I can get one for around $200 and it would be a nice tool to have around. I'm going to have to figure out the feasibility of getting it hooked up though. The trans piping isn't terribly forgiving.
Coils fail when hot fairly commonly. Check the ohms/continuity of the fuel shutoff coil when cold, then again after it shuts off, and again once it cools.
My shut down solenoid failed the day i bought my machine. Mine is a 220NH don't know if it's the same as the 855 you have, but we noticed one of my injectors leaked inside the head when we rebuilt them. The copper seal washer used on the side of the injector was over tightened and split. Never had any overheating issues engine wise. I'm interested in what you find out on the T/C over heating. Have been tempted to replace my pumps and T/C to but if it's just a clogged heat ex changer then it's just time not money to fix.
Any luck yet?
Last night I checked resistance on the shutoff coil. I had a something like 34 ohms of resistance while working. As soon as the engine died I checked again and had an open circuit. Went through that process 2 times to be sure. So my shutoff coil appears to be faulty. I also realized that there is a thumb screw that is for adjusting/overriding that shut off valve. I adjusted it to fully open and ran the dozer for 30 more minutes without interruption. At least I have a workaround until the new part arrives. The dozer did overheat again right around the hour mark but it was getting too dark to continue investigations. I'm seriously considering yanking the valve assembly off of the transmission to rule out any major leaks. I still have fluid leaking from the shift lever so that needs to be addressed anyway. It may be sunday afternoon before I start that project as I need to get as many hours logged as possible this weekend. I'm trying to clear 3 acres of stumps/cut-over and its going pretty slow at 2 hours per day of dozer run time. ;-)
Here is a decent view of the clearing project and a nice storm rolling in.
I've been looking over parts diagrams and the disassembly pictures from the manual. There are sleeves with orings that bridge the gap between the valve cover and the valves (see yellow highlight in picture). This is the main inlet for oil coming from the pump/filter and the main outlet for oil that makes it past the trans headed to the TC. I have already had to replace the two external o-rings between the pipe flanges and the cover due to leaks. It stands to reason that the o-rings on those sleeves are also due for replacement and could possibly be leaking a fair amount of oil. I think/hope I can access these without fully removing the valve cover. I had a similar sleeve connector fail on my Massey 255 hydraulics last year.
Is as on the old cummins that is a manual bypass by turning the knurled knob basically full in If you have a murphy style system this bypasses it while only way to shut off is to screw it back out
Don't use the compression release to shut of the engine. Make sure you turn that screw all the way out to shut off the engine. If the screw stays in one of the injectors will leak by and fill the crankcase full of fuel. That might have happened to me once
Yep. When I killed the key it stayed at idle. Had to back the knob out all the wY to shut it down.
It looks like the sleeve o-rings had been replaced with a higher quality material at some point. They were still pliable and sealing quite well. I didn't do any additional investigations due to getting the dozer stuck in the mud and wasting the better part of the weekend to dig it out. Will post some pictures/details of that fiasco soon. Here's a picture of the sleeves after removal. It was slightly more work than I envisioned b/c one of the pipes is not flexible and connected to the bottom of the filter housing in a way that is near impossible to reach. I ended up removing 2 of the 3 bolts holding the filter housing which allowed me to rotate the whole assembly enough to get the sleeve and mounting plate removed.
After I had put the dozer back together from checking those sleeve seals I decided to try to run it for the usual 45 minutes. About 30 minutes in, I was pushing a few loose stumps toward the pile and there was a low section that I had navigated before. I figured I could make it across again, but I think the root rake grabbed another stump and before I realized it the front as in the hole that the stump left. I guess the root network was the only thing keeping me afloat b/c in a instant I was in trouble. I thought I could back out but all that did was slip the tracks and dig in more. I tried forward/reverse and was sitting on the belly pan before I knew it. I shut it down and hopped off to assess the situation. There was a stump directly in front of the left track and the track was already low enough that it was spinning against the stump. Fortunately the same stump was giving me a solid place to drop the blade and lift the front of the tractor out of the mud. So at 10 a.m. Saturday morning I was sweating my @ss off cutting logs to put under the front of the tracks. Over the span of about 2 hours I must've put 3 tree's worth of timber under that thing. Every time I let the front back down it would smash them down as if they weren't even there. Of course, I would then try to inch forward/reverse to see if it helped with traction. All the while I'm getting deeper with every failed attempt. I decided to go home for lunch and rethink my options. I did a few searches online and found several threads on this forum about tricks to get out of the mud. The idea of chaining a log to the tracks seemed to have a pretty high success rate so I set out to try that approach on Sunday morning. I opted to put the log on the rear of the dozer and made a poor decision to fasten by wrapping a 10k pound rated ratchet strap around it and the track pad several times on each side. After over an hour of effort I gave it a shot. I noticed some initial movement but then the tracks seemed to stall as if I wasn't generating enough torque for the job. Then all at once the tracks started spinning. Turns out the straps didn't hold up and the effort was wasted. So I figured my only option was to use the higher torque forward gear and hope like hell that it could jump over the stump that was in the way. Chaining the new log to the tracks was a chore as the chain was tight fit between the tracks. I also stuffed a few more logs under the tracks and laid a few where I was headed for good measure. I found myself standing there wondering if there was anything else I could do to prepare, knowing that if this attempt didn't work I would probably have to admit defeat and pay someone to come pull me out. It was a nervous few minutes! Finally I got the courage to crank it up and give it a shot. To my surprise, it climbed out of the hole with ease. Here are some pics at various stages of the process. It doesn't look terrible in the pictures because I had the front lifted with the blade. At its worst, the top of the tracks were at ground level.
Always amazed me how fast a machine of these types can dig a hole with its own shoes, how fast they will sink down and how stuck we can stick them in a very short order! Worst I saw was a D9 cable unit dragging a pan hit soft wet sand boil, was in up to the top of track in a heartbeat, took three other 9's to dislodge it as it developed a suction seal to the muddy mess.
not an operator by any means but have been in those situations 3 times. only thing that saved this old man was i removed the spring that holds the throttle in place for a health reason on both loaders when i felt it start to sink i turned throttle loose and it stopped instantly. then got off and took appropriate measures to get it out.
I was planning to build a pond in this area anyway, but this isn't how I envisioned digging the hole. I'm very fortunate to have gotten it out on Sunday. We've had 2-3 inches of rain since Sunday night.
Well you have a good start hole!
I got the dozer stuck again this weekend. Fortanately, after last weekend I'm a dozer unstucking expert. It only took about an hour of effort this time. I spent most of the rest of the weekend digging a ditch along the bottom of the area I am working in hopes that it will help dry it enough to be workable with the dozer. Lastnight, I started the process of removing the trans valve assembly make sure everything is functional there. I was making good progress until I got to the front bolts of the seat frame. Normally they would be readily accessible from the outside of the dozer, but in my case there is huge L brace of 3/4" steel that provides support for the roll cage. The bolt is accessible behind the corner of the brace but only just barely. So to remove two 21 mm bolts I am likely going to have to remove sixteen 30 mm bolts and manage a very heavy piece of iron. SIGH. The other possibility, which I am debating, would be to dremel the tack welds off of the nut on the inside. Here's a pic showing where the bolt is located:
I haven't read the whole thread but have u checked the water temp with another source or gauge. I've got a D31P-21 that I thought was overheating. Can't tell you how any times I stopped and waited to cool off. I replaced the thermostat once then took it out. Finally figured out it wasn't overheating at all. It was a bad sending unit and or gauge. It was an electric sending unit. I replaced it with a manual temp gauge that don't lie. It runs cools as a cuke. Barely ever goes to 190. I almost pulled the radiator out t and had it cleaned. Man am I glad I didn't do that. That was 10 yesrs ago and it never even come close to overheating. Just sayin
Unfortunately I have confirmed overheating with a new converter temp gauge and with IR readings at various points. Its strictly the TC and Trans overheating at this point, the engine temp has been fine since cleaning the radiator. I am in the process of investigating the trans valve system based on the following observations: Flow to/from the oil cooler is high when the fluid is cold but drastically decreases at operating temp. Fluid levels in the trans vary significantly based on temp. After running for a few minutes with cold fluids the level is not on the dipstick. After warm up the trans fluid levels show very high....like 3 inches above the full mark. I have been suspecting trans slippage. It will push heavy loads fairly well at any time but forward progress will slow without tracks slipping. The universal joint speed doesnt appear to be slowing in relation. Sporadically the dozer seems to push much better, spin tracks, etc... I think all of this gives good enough reason to investigate a leak in trans valves...plus I am kind of curious to take a peek at the internals.
Tenfo good luck hope u figure it out!
After wrestling with the seat frame for several hours I was finally able to get it dislodged and out of the way. I had to use a cable come-along to pull it up and out. The valve cover was fairly easy to remove except for the fact that it was well sealed to the trans. The valve assmbly was also easy to remove. Odd as it sounds, I was pleased to find 2 broken o-rings and a third that appears to be eroded on the underside. Here are pics of the process. Seat frame removed. Valve cover removed Valves removed(broken seals)
Weird,almost looks like the one on the right went under vacuum
It does look that way but I think something caused the ring to grow/swell. It is too large for the seat. I lined everything up on the bench and determined that all 3 bad seals were on the forward/reverse ports. Is anyone familiar with what type off rubber these red orings these are? I have the standard nitrile orings on hand as possible replacements.
The red o-rings are usually silicone but may have better luck with Viton?
Usually with silicone orings is a stiffener ring of a harder material as plastic or tin, the oring is just a seal. I wonder if had been changed and the extra parts disregarded.
I've seen a lot of those glued in. They hold OK unless you get over heating problems. It also might be just a factor of the age of the machine or if anyone has been in there before an put the wrong ring in. If they are on the clutch packs its not likely to be causing an over heat issue. Usually if there was enough leakage the pack would be slipping.
I ordered some viton replacement o-rings which should be in tomorrow. I am not overly confident that this will fix my overheating issue unless high volumes of oil are escaping between the valve assemblies. Either way it was a needed repair. I also ordered new oil seals for the shift levers. I am pretty sure someone welded on the levers without removing them. The seals look partially melted.
Based on parts diagrams there is only a single oring for each port. No idea if the silicone rings are original. No sign of RTV on the cover gasket so this may not have been messed with before.
Between rain and other projects around the house I wasn't able to get the dozer put back together this past weekend. I did go ahead and take a closer look at the area around the steering valve assembly b/c I knew I had some leaks coming from that area that were not easy to reach with the seat frame in place. I yanked the steering valve for inspection and found that most of the o-rings were hard and in need of replacement. But I think most of my leak was originating from loose bolts on the front of the big plate that covers the brake/axle housing. I could move some of them with my fingers. As I tightened them I saw some oil squeeze out of the mating surfaces, so I know fluid must have been passing through it. At this rate I should probably be buying O-rings in bulk. I think I have most of the leaks on the rear half of the machine corrected now....whether there is improvement in overheating remains to be seen. Hopefully I'll be able to report back later this week.
Finally got her back together. Zero change on the overheating. There is probably a 15 or 20% improvement in pushing power. It would rarely spin the tracks before but does it readily now. The leaks on top of the Trans valve cover are also fixed. I am probably going to have to run it in short bursts for awhile until this 3 acres is cleared. Then I will go back to the drawing board. I guess pulling the torque converter is my next option but I may try to reconfirm fluid volume to the oil cooler at various temps.
Any updates on the over heating? I'll be heading up to mine in a few weeks to play with and just looking for any input. I'm also thinking i might have clog in the heat ex changer somewhere. Any work i do to the machine can only be done in the two weeks i'm there. After this it sits until April.
Hi, I had a fairly significant turn of events that has left me too frustrated with myself to post any updates. A few months ago I developed a leak in one of the standpipes between the oil cooler and the water manifold. Rather than try to fix the leak, I just put more water in the radiator each time I ran it. The leak got to the point were 4-5 gallons of fluid would go missing between uses. Interestingly, after several rounds of topping off the radiator I noticed that I was able to run the dozer for longer and longer periods of time without over heating. It got to the point where I was running it 2-3 hours without going over 190 and the only reason it seemed to overheat then was b/c enough coolant had leaked out. I theorized that the high volumes of leaking was acting as a coolant flush of sorts. The problem with this is that I think I may have been inadvertently flushing some Stop Leak out of the system at the same time. One day I was cutting some heavy clay for a pond damn and I felt the engine bog, then start screeching. As I went to throttle down and shut it off it screeched to a halt and blew the cap off of the engine oil fill tube. I could immediately see that the oil was gray and sludgy. I'm pretty sure I "unstop leaked" someones previous fix and ended up with lots of coolant in the oil. The engine was stuck until it had time to sit for a few hours. I checked to see if it would turn over and it surprisingly fired right up but only ran for about 5 seconds(sounded ok) before it started screeching again so I shut it down. I'm guessing I lost oil flow to some bearings and will need some significant engine work. I had to rent a Case 750 to get some work done over the last month but I'm probably going to be doing engine investigations soon. I feel like a pretty big idiot for not paying closer attention to the fluids.
Sorry to hear that. It really stinks to have that happen when you had some hope that it was going to be fixed too.
Wow that really sucks. Sounds like our machines have the identical problems with different engines. I did the head gaskets and rebuilt the heads with new valves on mine back when i first got it. I never even let mine get up to temp before i fixed it so i don't know if it over heated because of it but grey oil usually points to blown head gasket in my experience. Again i was told these hold Cummins have head gasket issues. One can only hope it's that easy.
The old Cummins had block issues, stress cracks in upper counterbores, lack of sealant in upper counterbores led to seepage, head gaskets would erode the top of the blocks just by the engine's firing causing the heads to wiggle, a broken head bolt was common usually the single ones between the heads. Had to closely inspect them each head removal for stress cracking.
With regards to stalling due to fuel issues, on my Komatsu D20, the problem was a clogged in line filter screen in the banjo fitting under the inlet to the lift pump. I cleaned out that little filter under the banjo fitting and installed an inline diesel fuel strainer under the fuel tank that I can visually check. The one I got was similar to a Wix 33972 clear plastic that you can check to see if its time to clean it out. Parker makes one with a fuel bowl and removable element for 10 times the price. Since I put the strainer in I have not had a fuel issue on the dozer again. Same thing with my old 8430 John Deere pulling a dirt pan. The tank is rusty inside and it being 100 gallons plus capacity there is always trash in there. The original pickup line broke off in the tank so I used the fuel gage penetration to install a different pickup with a screen on it, a strainer and then the inline fuel pump. I've had no problems with fuel starvation since installing those changes.