Well I have been pretty silent... I had a thought a few weeks ago and then all I could smell was smoke for weeks. Anyways I have been doing some pondering about the 40-50 ton hoe market. You have Cat testing out the new 349E.... Deere I am sure is not far behind with the 450E hoes... hopefully. You have the 2 current models the 345D and 450D, each around 45 tons roughly. Then you have the japanese yellow... Komatsu. The PC400, I have been working around/with one the last few months and it makes me wonder why? The 2 big players are sitting between 45-50 tons, and then Komatsu staying light at 40 ton but expecting to compete with everyone else. Case has their 460, Kobelco has a 460, Hyundai runs a 460 don't they? Link Belt has a 460. I guess you could say they are stickin with the 400 to carve out their own little niche market. Now running the machine, I personally am not a fan of the Komatsu line, their always light in the back end, they never seem to multi-task nicely and they look and feel cheap. Anyone have any insider news on maybe a 450...500 sized hoe coming out? Also what are the thoughts from people that have run the 400 vs. the 450 or 345. I am biased away from the Komatsu but this is because I grew up with Deere iron at home.
Don't forget Volvo's 460.
Komatsu has the PC450.
I am assuming you are talking about Komatsu, they already have one - http://www.komatsuamerica.com/excavators-PC450LC-8 It's around 98-100K operating weight.
Looked around on the Komatsu site.... They still group it with the 3.75yd bucket? Kinda small isn't it? I mean you see a lot of 345's cruisin around with 4.5yd buckets and even some 5's if your daring. As for the Volvo 460.... when I am looking for a nice family hoe with side impact airbags... I'll look at Volvo.
burnout, i see more 400 vs 450 komy's around here but way more 450clc/450d's and 345. Like you the kom's have been light in the arse and was a little slow/ weak on arm power and track power. Rathen then that were fast as crap and did everything else desent. kom,volvo,link-belt/case just felt cheap even thoe i kinda liked the case's. Never have cared for anything cat period. I started growing up liking cat then that quickly change. Copy CAT"s in my book. To me the 45-ton hoes are pretty close. But deere and cat are at the top. I wish the 450D had the deere motor back in her but ol well. Its hard to beat the deeretachi combo. Great machine, right in the middle on price and never have had a problem on getting parts and service. And the way things are going its a good time to buy iron cause they are giving good apr's and deals in general.
in fact you have a lot of choice....you can ad doosan (dx 420-480) and kobelco (sk485lc) in this market....but since you seem to stick with cat or deere...then its your only choice...
In general I am not a huge fan of Cat hoes. But The 345 is one machine I do loooove. I have been in a couple Series 2 B models that were blazing fast and had tons of power. I have only really run one C model and it was the same, fast, precise and comfortable. I have run quite a few Deere 450's from the old 992D/E to the first gen 450's and the new D series. I love them, can't say enough good things about them. I spent some time nosing around Komatsu's site last night and it just doesn't seem like it competes with the Deere/Cat machines. I have had conversations with members from here, one in particular always brings up what I consider grey iron hoes all the time and he gets frustrated with me when I call them all crap. Grey iron to me honestly means... Volvo, Hyundai, Samsung, Kobelco, JCB and so on. Now most of these manufacturers are not grey iron, they are reputable equipment manufacturers. But they don't have a presence here in the west. I am a brand who*e I can admit it. I look at even Komastsu as a cheap alternative if you can't afford either Cat or Deere. Doesn't mean its right, but it's how I feel. If I went out today and bought myself a Deere 450D, even an early model 450 LC, or a Cat 345B or a C... or D I know these machines I can get parts for. A pump goes down in one of these hoe's... the dealer support is there for me. Now if I toss a pump in my Kobelco 485 are they there for me? Same with my Komatsu, they do have a network, unfortunately around here their parts selection doesn't seem to filter down to the little guy.
i understand for sure...but you would be surprised how these like you call them "grey market" can have a good service sometime....it all depend of the dealership...the brand don"t have much importance today!! except if you like a brand in particular of course...
myself i love cat hoes id stick with cat for everything except their TLB i love case TLB theb best. deere would be my second runner up for trackhoes ive been on the 200dlc i think it was. It was fast go response, bucket break out force was amazing and comfortable. cat to me is the best love them cofort repsonse power thats just my opinion.
Brand can have more of an impact than you might think. I used to run a Daewoo 130 LC-V, it was a great fast little hoe and well balanced. But it overheated like crazy when you ran it in power mode, and so did its twin. It also consumed oil, at 4000hrs it had a major structural failure, the fuel gauge never worked and c'mon its a 130, so why can't you grease it in one position? I am 6'4" and curled up in a greasing position I can't reach the fittings for the boom/stick joint, or the stick cylinder. Our Daewoo dealer, which is the only one in Ontario that I know of... was a Case agricultural dealer. Service was decent, but not what I would expect for your production machine.
Hi burny boy, hope all is well. My opinnion on the rigs you mentioned above is as follows. 345b some are great, some are dogs. 345c is a great hoe. 400 komatsu,s slower than cats not as multi functional, 7 and 8 series are big improvements but still fall short of 345 hoes, although they have better lift capacity. never really ran all the other iron you mentioned but really feel there is`nt much difference in any of them outside of paint. I know I meet a lot of skepticism on here but I will take a totally rebuilt 200 series cat over any of those rigs previously mentioned anyday.:drinkup
No offence to the grey market machine owners out there but i have to agree that when i see a doosan,case,kobelco ect. I start to think that either that company doesnt care about their production or they cant afford anything else, Im sorry but i bleed deere and cat, i have run a new 225 case that my 160lc out dug and I humord jcb by demoing a 330 from them and it was -20C out and it wouldnt even start to unload off of the trailer, not to mention when they took me to the factory at savana GA there was nothing in the demo grounds to write home about. as for Volvo they should stick to making stuff with wheels
What is it that you guys don't like with Volvo?
they are built out of plastic other than that i cant say i havent run one
Its back to the old saying u get watch u pay for...
Our company has Volvo hoes, and personally I don't care for them. Seem to have little things always wrong with them, dumb stuff but still. Give me a Cat or Deere any day...
I this area of the US the Komatsu 400 has been king for a long time. When you know how to set them up I have personally seen them run rings around all the other makes hands down. The problem I have again personally seen is the manufacturer sets up the hydraulics all on the bottom end of the specifications and the dealers don't check pressures and reset as part of the pre-delivery. Instead they wait until the customer complains and then they go out and do the placating. The bigger problem with them though is in repair and resale. Most of the big contractors here run them but trade them out before they hit 10K on the meter. The reason is the parts are so expensive that you can't afford to rebuild them and the resale is so bad you just as well buy another. The statements about being cheap does apply to them in a few ways, particularly the cab and controls. The 450 line in all the rest is basically an added weight to the back of the counterweight. Power may be a little different but it is always just a tweek on the fuel pump setting and slap a different decal on the side of the machine. Even the Komatsu 450 machines that I've seen are that way.
Why don't I like Volvo? Because I have run them. Their wheel loaders are nice I can admit that, but they feel cheap inside. Their rock trucks... are top notch. Their hoes?... cheap.
Cheap and plastic... As the structure is made of steel, I assume we're talking about cabins here. All excavator brands use plastic panels today, at least all on the European market. What do you got over there? Wood? Volvo and Komatsu cabins are among the most quiet and noise free on the market today. I don't know if we get the "cheap and plastic" version of Cat here in Scandinavia, becaus Volvo and Cat is almost the same when it comes to price, here. About your yellow Hitachi, that's called Deere... Good Japanes quality.
Thanks for the update chief. I always wondered why everyone called it Deeretachi. rofessor
its all matter of personel choice.....but personally i don"t see why the brand "cat or deere" would be so "superior" to the other brand?? especialy today!! some will like deere and will hate hitachi....when in fact hitachi is just the orange version of deere!! cat is in fact just another japanese compagny...anybody remember when they bought mitsubishi?? they have taken the technology from them after!! i"ve saw some volvo and doosan (former daewoo) at 15,000 hours and still running.... you get for what you paid=******** personaly for me today!! its just a old expression from the 80 when the japanese had just improving the equipement...
Actually Cat's excavators are a joint venture with Shin Mitsubishi, not that I'm sticking up for Cat machines but it's better to have the facts. I should also add that a major contributing factor can also be the old saying "made on a Monday morning" or "Friday afternoon". A company I use to work had bought two John Deere 850 dozers one worked good most of the time the other had non-stop electronic and I think hydraulic problems and was promptly returned.
Why is Cat/Deere/Hitachi superior to other brands? Experience of the manufacturer building it, product support, parts support, dealer network and refinement of their product. Cat and Deere have been at it for awhile. While other companies have also been buildings hoe's Cat has been there a bit longer. I'm sure there are Volvo, Doosan, Shinsei..... and many other brands of hoe running at 15 000hrs. Deere and Hitachi are the same? Look em over a bit closer. While many of the models match up quite nicely, many of the Deere hoe's still have Deere engines under the hood instead of Isuzu's.
Over here are Volvo's more expensive than Caterpillar. It's a funny world. :Banghead
Cat launched their first hydraulic excavator 1972. Poclain 1951. Liebherr 1954. Mitsubishi 1960. O&K 1961. Åkerman 1962. JCB 1965. Landsverk 1968. Komatsu 1968.... and so on The two Swedish companies, Åkerman and Landsverk, that later became Volvo, started a lot earlier building cable-type excavators. I will stop here. I thought one could have a grownup discussion here, about good and bad things with different brands, but it all ends up as in many other threads. It have to be made in America, otherwise it's crap. I will just leave a short comment to the thread starter, Komatsu PC450LC-8 compared to Cat 345D L. Stick and bucket force, and a cabin with only 71 dBA noise level (Cat 76 dBA) makes Komatsu the winner on the paper, for me. One can't just look at bucket size, unless you aren't only digging cotton...... Personally, I would go for Liebherr 954, more swing torque, more drawbar pull and more stick and bucket force, but that's me. Thank you, and goodnight!!
Nothing wrong with a Liebherr, sept getting parts for them, at least around here. And the trade in value...
Like burnout said there is more differences between deere and hitachi then meets the eyes. And hitachi DOES NOT build deere hoes. Its a JOINT venture. Some of the first hoes deere and hitachi started making back in the 80's and 90's like the E series where more hitachi due to the agreement being so new. Now a days its a whole different animal. And for all those that don't give deere credit on hoes they need to look around a lttle bit. If you take away all the machines that deere has sold, how well would hitachi be doing. Hitachi sure doesn't have much dealership support if you take deere out of the question. How many stand alone hitachi dealerships to you see?? Now many. And if hitachi is at the same dealership as a rival guess where they call to get parts. Its more then likely they go through a deere ship some where!! Also I bet my bottom dollar that if hitachi was having problems or was making crappy machines that deere wouldn't be to happy. Deere says we want a top notch machine and nothing less. If that doesn't happen something will change so that they can Smitten, I will agree. I like liebherr machines but theres a big difference between machines and the companines that stand behind them here and over there. Jcb,volvo, daewoo, kobelco just to name a few are all made mostly in the southeast U.S. So they are not uncommon. But what is common and some are different then others is dealers/dealer support and parts. Are they decent machines? Yes, but when ever you travel any where you can always tell in that particular area which sells the most. Deere,Cat, Komatsu and Case just seem to do whats right in north american markets. That and they have a full product line. The only thing going for hyundi,daewoo,volvo and terex is price. Thats one of the reason you see a 15-2000 hour machine going for rock bottom dollar too. I can go on and on about the pros and cons of each, but thats why you see more of these top four machines then these other makes. And why we tend to lean way more toward these.
Agreed! every company has one product that they have perfected and what they do realy well with. like samsung, they build cheap disposable electronics just like many other japanese company's that have their hands in everything, and there is a market for that stuff. So why wouldnt they build their industrial products to be disposable like their electronics, they look the same but the components are cheaper and dont last as long. Cat and deere know 1 thing heavy Iron, I have my grandfathers 1950? ht4 traxcavator and still works as good as it did in its day, aswell finning still sells replacement parts for that machine, it was the most expencive machine at the time but how many japanese people still use a crawler loader their grandfather bought .
ummm..... you do know that John Deere excavators short of the engine are Japanese designed?
Apparently you didn't read my last post. If you want to go that far then whats not designed over there?? I don't think you give your fellow north americans any credit...
Sorry my friend but if Burnout starts a thread about any kind of machine it's just going to turn into a rant why he thinks John Deere is better than any other manufacturer. lol It is very difficult on this forum at times to have a mature discussion about likes and dislikes of specific makes and models of different machines. I also find it quite frustrating to read some people's threads with they're very poor spelling and grammar, I know mine isn't the best but at least you won't get a headache trying to decipher it. However I will give people from different countries a lot of credit for they're ability to read and write and speak english. And as for Deereman maybe you should list these big differences between a John Deere excavator and a Hitachi excavator, because I know the differences other than paint, decals, and engine are not very big.
Ok... time for the Burnt-one to jump back into this....SPLASH. Wow look at that water go. Maybe I should have got the diet coke today...bahahahahahaha First off, I will start with Bert's comment about me telling you why Deere machines are better than the rest. Yes I do like JD iron, I do find their line to be very competitive with other manufacturers, especially when it comes to excavators. You can also say the same for their tractor backhoes, wheel loaders, smaller trim dozers and ADT's. They also have their weaker products, track loaders, the 2 larger dozers in their line and I am sure there are others. No company can build the best of everything. I am not a true yellow Caterpillar man either. I do prefer their track loaders to any other brand, as well as their large dozers, and obviously scrapers. As for your other statement about being Japanese Designed... yeah? So? As was stated above, what isn't these days? If it is going to make the product work better and perform to its fullest abilities... go for it. What are the difference between a Hitachi and a John Deere? You and I have had this conversation before have we not? The Deere most of the time will have a yellow engine under the hood, may have some very different configurations available, different specs and will almost always perform a little harder than its orange brother. For instance, I have run a 350D Deere beside a ZX350D and the Deere was noticeably faster and had some extra grunt. The Deere was a short stick model and had a thumb. The hitachi.. was a LOT better on fuel, I can admit it. I was burning almost the entire 600L a day, he was burning in the neighborhood of 450 per 12hr shift. We can have a grown up discussion here, its what we are having at least until I throw my bottle of milk at the laptop and cal you a poopy head. As Bert stated above I do prefer the JD iron and yes I am going to believe in my head that it is superior, but that is my thought. I originally asked for YOUR thoughts. What is everyones personal experience with the different brands of hoes? There are guys that will never admit to liking anything but a Cat hoe thats fine that is what they believe to be true. I have my reasons for not liking Komatsu, I feel they are justified for the reasons that I have stated above. On paper a machine can be superior and that is well and good. I have slowly learned over the years to put down my CPH and look at how things react in the real world. I have also learned that your Kobelco SK485 may very well blow the doors off our 450D LC, what happens when it breaks down? I know I can run to the dealership and they can search me up some parts. I might wait a couple days, but what happens when you own a brand of machine without dealer support and your waiting 4-5 weeks for something simple? I hope this discussion does continue, I welcome it. I personally have made sure to check this when I get near my laptop to read everyones thoughts. Whether they be close minded, open minded or just no minded they are interesting to read. And now for my obligatory... John Deere makes the best iron ever on the face of the universe statement. Sorry..... it's in my contract..lol
I told all you guys before, I will take a certified rebuilt 200 series cat brand hoe any day of the week. (I`ll just have to bring a radio and deal with the heat, no problem):usa
gimme a 12v71 detroit re-powered 235c and i would be in heaven.:tong
I agree whole-heartedly with your comment. My Take: Deere vs. Hitachi: It's a joint venture. Yes, most of the non-engine related machinery in Deere and Hitachi excavators is designed in Japan, and the majority of the engineers are Japanese, and can be considered to be 'Hitachi' people. So what? Most excavators are designed there. The 200-350 sized excavators sold here are built in the US by American people... call them 'John Deere' people. If you can argue that John Deere's are just rebadged yellow Hitachis, you can also argue that Hitachis sold here are just rebadged orange american-built John Deeres. Then you'll start arguing many hydraulic parts come from Japan... nothing is all from one country these days. I can also confirm from my experience that I find that John Deere excavators with Deere engines always seem to have a little more grunt when digging compared to Hitachis with Isuzu engines. This is probably because John Deere engines are usually higher displacement, higher torque engines. For a while, John Deere excavators also had more HP than the Hitachi equivalents, and that made a bigger difference. For example, an EX200-5 cannot keep up with my JD 200LC, because it has a smaller engine with significantly less horsepower. The ZX-3 Hitachis mostly have the same HP as the D series deeres, so the differences is much smaller, but the small differences in the torque curves still usually play out in favour of John Deere engines over Isuzus. Isuzus indeed do burn less fuel though; Hitachis are still fairly similar to Deeres and are good machines. If nothing else, you can't argue with the smooth but powerful sound of John Deere engines Every company makes some stronger an weaker machines, I think we all agree with that here. For excavators, I find that no other machines on the market can outperform the 200s John Deere has been making for the past 13 years. Among 12 tonners though, CAT's 312s are the best, period. I very much like 345Cs, I tried one and loved its speed, power, and smoothness. And I also love CAT 245s (and 235s too); I don't have that much experience with them but the ones I have played with were surprisingly fast, powerful, and fun for their age and size. There are a ton of other good (and not so good) machines on the market, and I won't criticize the less popular makes. Parts availability and support are critical, and they must also be considered when making purchases. If I bought a chinese SANY excavator in my area and it broke down, I'd have to wait weeks to get any parts other than filters and common consumables, or have to hunt down parts that will fit myself, with the risk of getting the wrong part. Same applies to many other makes. Some lesser known makes have decent parts availability, and they are fine for many.
You are a maniac, my brother. Very smart, but a maniac, none the less! (lawn mower, chain saw or log splitter) INSIDE JOKE:usa
I know but so is cat and everyone elses machines did you know that hitachi has a Purple seat and a deere has a grey one !
Burnout ask your self, do I need a 45 ton or a 50 ton ? 45 ton I will take the Komatsu, 50 ton go liebherr 954, or Kobelco, and yes, I don't know the dealer situation ind your area.
Did you also know the Hitachi only has a 24v outlet in the cab no 12v? Thats another up on the JD. I will say one thing for Cat, they do not use their own special 24v radio in their machines. Which to some is not a big deal. To me it is, ever had one stop working on you? Ever seen the price on a Deere radio, or Komatsu radio? Cat uses the 12v power and a generic branded head unit which means easy replacement. Now I do know not all machines are like that, its generally a dealer installed option. But I rather like the Clarion unit in the loader I run. The aux input for the sat radio is amazing. as for your 200 series hoe Scott..... I think thats a given. I really like new excavator smell its awesome. But the 245 holds a special place in my heart. They are big, loud, ignorant and fun.
I remember the Cat 320C series machines had 24 volt cigarette lighters, one of the guys I worked with wired it up differently so it would be only twelve so he could plug in his lunchbox heater thing. And yeah I miss the roar of the old 3406's in the 245's.
A factory installed sirius radio that would make my day!
Buy the radio, I'll be your factory...hehehe
I have 4 but every time i leave some one takes the damn thing and break the antena! I have to say that the 450D fired up without a problem yesterday at -30 and the 7 had to have a tiger torch put under her, hmm cat's dont like cold
You have a strange idea of heaven.
Hey, sounds kinda like you! Seriously though, I've been drinking far to much down here.....maybe I should go visit Arabhacks....where is he again?
I'm fun?
That's where the "KINDA" part comes in to play.
Ignorance is bliss, Burny boy, my friend. By the way, is that a cummins powered jeep on your facebook page?
Only when im pullin it with my Cummins powered Dodge.:cool2
Great truck my friend, I have one also, 2002 2500 24 valve cummins. there is a place in pennsylvania that specialzes in putting 4 bt`s in jeeps, I am talking to them now. They`re name is jeff daniels jeeps in harleyville PA.:usa
Haha I have heard of them, you can also have it done at Overland Motors here in Canada. My truck is also an 02 24V 5spd.
I am thinking about putting a 4BT in my '73 CJ-5. Should be interesting.
opcorn:drinkup opcorn
Methinks your a little late. 245 seems to have given up on trying to tell us things we all knew. Let's see if we can liven up the discussion again. Ok so..... Been running the PC400 the last couple days. The speakers seem kind of tinny. What are your thoughts gents? as say compared to Cat and Deere paper crap speakers.
How about this option that the new 8360R has for a factory radio... Premium Radio Package with XM Radio AM/FM Stereo with Premium Tuner, Clock, Weatherband, Compact Disc Player, Remote Controls, USB port on front of radio face, Auxiliary Input Jacks located in right hand storage console and on radio face, BlueTooth capable including microphone, XM Satellite capable including Satellite Antenna (Subscription Required), Four Speakers, Subwoofer , and External Antenna. Volume, Speed Compensation, bass, and treble radio functions can be viewed and configured on the CommandCenter Display. Burnout...I think that this may meet your fine level of supreme karaoke abilities while you sling dirt
Ahhh I want that option in the yellow Iron tho Green just dont do it for me anymore!:duh:duh